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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:11:00 -
[121]
Great thread so far.
I've not played for some time, the game became stale and with certain changes in game and in RL I took a break.
Anyway I can back to this, after just setting myself up with a mix of blaster ships.
Now just before this came live on sisi, I tried out my blasteranis, and found it the same. Slower than other Inty's, but if you got the chance of a web, you had the edge.
After this change, I've noticed it fails more and more, the agility it had has gone and with it seemly the chance to catch out the unsuspecting pilot.
I just hope the changes get reined in a little, or some of them never get through at all.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:12:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Double the optimal and the falloff for all blasters?
Might work (though the Rokh might become an issue, as you note).
Currently, if you compare pulse lasers to blasters, you'll notice that pulse laser dps is only about 1/7 less than blaster dps, with 3.5x (or some such) the range. A typical pulse Geddon outdamages or does the same dps as a typical neutron blaster Mega, while having vastly better weapon range. Something is not quite right here.
and then how about AC? IF blasters have longer range same falloff and more damage and more tracking.. what in hell is left for AC? No Blaters cannot have longer range, unless AC get way way longer range ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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WillageGirl
Advanced Tactics and Maneuvers
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:35:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Double the optimal and the falloff for all blasters?
Might work (though the Rokh might become an issue, as you note).
Currently, if you compare pulse lasers to blasters, you'll notice that pulse laser dps is only about 1/7 less than blaster dps, with 3.5x (or some such) the range. A typical pulse Geddon outdamages or does the same dps as a typical neutron blaster Mega, while having vastly better weapon range. Something is not quite right here.
This was fine and more or less balanced when Mega and Hyperion could close that distance with MWD while geddon (as a Amarr short range gank BS) was unable to use one because of slot layout and limited PG / CPU. Now however that balance is broken on SiSi since 'Geddons is still performing just as it was and Mega's ability to maneuver is gimped.
As far as blaster range goes, I dont think it should be changed since blasters have always been extremely short range and high damage weapons. Thats their thing... Changing blaster range would most likely just open a new much larger can of worms to sort when thinking of balance. If balancing speed tanking completely gimps something that has been in game from the beginning and is completely unrelated to speed tanking itself, there must be something wrong with the fix itself. (Which is why this post is here and we're all posting )
Fighting for Our right to Cloak since 2004 |
The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.07.30 13:13:00 -
[124]
Like allready mentioned it by others, the problem is down to 2 main Problems.
1. Getting in Range takes far longer, needs more Cap and deployes more Damage to the Blaster Ship.
Well realy no idea on this one, many Ships have AB fitted or no Speed mod on Sissi atm so getting in range is not the hardest part on sissi(it might be on TQ with this changes). Mostly it takes to long to reach the speed to force people with a Disruptor and the Web to PVP since Blaster ships are allwasys like that, small Gang/Solo offensive Ships and very heavy Tacklers. The hole process off getting at speed needs to be adressed, Top speed however is not the most important thing in the end, since you will be in Range before you reach top speed most of the time anyway.
Reducing mass would make the Minmatar pilotes out there cry very hard, and i have to admit they would be right. So my Idea would a be a diffrent kind of MWD that reduces the agility while moving in a tradoff for faster accelation. So more like a special straight line Burst that gets you in and out of Range than a module that speeds up your ship for fast moving and avoiting damage. So the module would be giving the upper hand to catch another ship with a MWD by faster accelation but reduces the chance to get something that is fast and agile like a Frig or a fast Hac and can simply change his direction and outmauver your ship with its on MWD to prevent itself from webbing.
2. Within Web Range other Ships with better Turret Range getting the upper Hand because of the weaker Web, in therms of Range and Tracking and holding your target at a good Range.
Well ofc a Tracking Boost would help here, but i would more like a Role Bonus on Webbing power on Blaster ships. Lets say 25% so the 60% Web turns into a 70% Web, helping the Blaster ship not only to track with the Turrets but also helps it to keep your Target in a usefull Turret Range. Also it would make it a better Tackler than other ships in a Gang and works for solo to.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.07.30 13:17:00 -
[125]
Well there is one crazy idea inspired by Sin. MWD bonus is not so great at test because most mwd have lesser penalty. What if Sin's agility bonus will became new Gallente "native" bonus? It will give blaster ships much needed at "sprint distances" against similar ships.
P.S. btw Mega is not the Gallente Ultimate Blaster Boat(c), it should be Hyperion but due to some reasons mega became better both as sniper as well as blasterboat for some time.
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Twirlip
External Forces A Gentle Tyranny
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Posted - 2008.07.30 13:30:00 -
[126]
Apologies if this has already been covered/suggested, but how about (on selected ships only) decreasing the signature radius hit when an mwd is on? That makes the blasterboat harder to hit as it powers in, and if done with the right numbers can compensate for the increased time to target range. _________________________________ Buggrit, floating in a pod, AGAIN |
WillageGirl
Advanced Tactics and Maneuvers
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Posted - 2008.07.30 13:54:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Twirlip Apologies if this has already been covered/suggested, but how about (on selected ships only) decreasing the signature radius hit when an mwd is on? That makes the blasterboat harder to hit as it powers in, and if done with the right numbers can compensate for the increased time to target range.
It just happens to be that both, Mega and Hyperion are taking full damage from other BS sized weapon systems (based on signature radius) even without MWD. For this reason decreasing signature radius hit would have no effect at all (unless made negative which is a bad idea even before it was invented).
Fighting for Our right to Cloak since 2004 |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.30 14:09:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Darth Felin Well there is one crazy idea inspired by Sin. MWD bonus is not so great at test because most mwd have lesser penalty. What if Sin's agility bonus will became new Gallente "native" bonus? It will give blaster ships much needed at "sprint distances" against similar ships.
P.S. btw Mega is not the Gallente Ultimate Blaster Boat(c), it should be Hyperion but due to some reasons mega became better both as sniper as well as blasterboat for some time.
So because of CCP's inability to balance we have to give up a bonus on our ships to make up for it?
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oniplE
Loving Pirates
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Posted - 2008.07.30 14:25:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Darth Felin Well there is one crazy idea inspired by Sin. MWD bonus is not so great at test because most mwd have lesser penalty. What if Sin's agility bonus will became new Gallente "native" bonus? It will give blaster ships much needed at "sprint distances" against similar ships.
P.S. btw Mega is not the Gallente Ultimate Blaster Boat(c), it should be Hyperion but due to some reasons mega became better both as sniper as well as blasterboat for some time.
So because of CCP's inability to balance we have to give up a bonus on our ships to make up for it?
A bonus that can easily be missed if the cap amount is increased. They did the same with the vindicator and vigilant, lowered the mwd bonus to 5% but increased the standard amount of cap. They could do the same here. x |
Osric Wuscfrea
Gallente PsyCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:05:00 -
[130]
- Gunnery 7.3 Million SP
- Missile Launcher Operation 9,120 SP
/me is sad... -- Rgds Mike
Dead-Fish, Deep Sea Daddies...
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:14:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 30/07/2008 16:14:57
Originally by: Kirex Edited by: Kirex on 30/07/2008 02:12:46 -Maelstrom can hit from 20km doing 1k DPS with the ability to change damage type and a stable 830 hp/sec shield tank. with scram. -Tempest can hit from 20km doing 840 dps and fast enough to KITE a blaster ship, and 2 utility high slots for remote reps (very good for gangs) -Typhoon can be gank fitted to get over 1.1k DPS, torps always hit, 96k effective HP, MWD/WEB/DIS
I hope you were joking and pretending not to know what falloff is or just badly worded your post because those are more like the max DPS at optimal using the close range ammos and nothing like the damage at 20km. Won't even start on the Typhoon part. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Kirex
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:45:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 30/07/2008 16:14:57
Originally by: Kirex Edited by: Kirex on 30/07/2008 02:12:46 -Maelstrom can hit from 20km doing 1k DPS with the ability to change damage type and a stable 830 hp/sec shield tank. with scram. -Tempest can hit from 20km doing 840 dps and fast enough to KITE a blaster ship, and 2 utility high slots for remote reps (very good for gangs) -Typhoon can be gank fitted to get over 1.1k DPS, torps always hit, 96k effective HP, MWD/WEB/DIS
I hope you were joking and pretending not to know what falloff is or just badly worded your post because those are more like the max DPS at optimal using the close range ammos and nothing like the damage at 20km. Won't even start on the Typhoon part.
Yes, that's the max damage at optimal range and it can hit out to about 20km comfortably (not hitting 100% of course if that's what you're thinking lol) ACs have a better chance to hit, thus do more damage than blasters at 20km. Plates are just personal preference, if you want to active tank, go ahead.
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Jaffur
North Eastern Swat
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:12:00 -
[133]
Originally by: forum mematar Thank you CCP for ruining Gallente!
Anyone want to buy a couple Domi Webs and a Navy Mega?
Patch makes drones significantly more useful as well.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:55:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Some quick options, just thinking out loud:
Double the optimal and the falloff for all blasters? What would this do for the Rokh?
Big nono for this. This will only make blaster more similar to AC.
I cant believe CCP is even considering going on with their "speed fix". Their proposal creates more problems than it solves. Back to the drawing board CCP and stop this "go on discuss" stuff. Do your work properly. Dont just squeeze in some semi-thought through extra fixes for all the stuff your broke with youre awesome idea.
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:17:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 30/07/2008 19:17:25
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Some quick options, just thinking out loud:
Double the optimal and the falloff for all blasters? What would this do for the Rokh?
Big nono for this. This will only make blaster more similar to AC.
I cant believe CCP is even considering going on with their "speed fix". Their proposal creates more problems than it solves. Back to the drawing board CCP and stop this "go on discuss" stuff. Do your work properly. Dont just squeeze in some semi-thought through extra fixes for all the stuff your broke with youre awesome idea.
We've actually been trying to get more optimal and falloff on our acs because on TQ they are fail. They will still be fail post patch but I guess at least we will get glancing hits at 20km instead of no hits at all. I guess that's some kind of lame rtarded ccpish boost to acs.
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Arte
AFK
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:29:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon and then how about AC? IF blasters have longer range same falloff and more damage and more tracking.. what in hell is left for AC? No Blaters cannot have longer range, unless AC get way way longer range
AC don't use capacitor, surely you must acknowledge that as a huge bonus???
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:09:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Arte
Originally by: Kagura Nikon and then how about AC? IF blasters have longer range same falloff and more damage and more tracking.. what in hell is left for AC? No Blaters cannot have longer range, unless AC get way way longer range
AC don't use capacitor, surely you must acknowledge that as a huge bonus???
Some how Minmatar pilots always seem to forget this, as usual. I think the answer here is more top speed for Gallente ships, the BS specifically, and something like triple the tracking.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:52:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Arte
Originally by: Kagura Nikon and then how about AC? IF blasters have longer range same falloff and more damage and more tracking.. what in hell is left for AC? No Blaters cannot have longer range, unless AC get way way longer range
AC don't use capacitor, surely you must acknowledge that as a huge bonus???
Some how Minmatar pilots always seem to forget this, as usual. I think the answer here is more top speed for Gallente ships, the BS specifically, and something like triple the tracking.
please try and remember that even though minni guns dont need cap they have extremly shitty optimal and bad dps with anything other then eft fittings
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Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:17:00 -
[139]
Blasters have even more shitty optimal, and a tiny falloff, and eat cap like hungry pigs. Yeah, they have dps.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:22:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Dzajic Blasters have slightly more optimal, and a tiny falloff, and eat cap like hungry pigs. Yeah, they have dps.
Fixed ;)
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:38:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 30/07/2008 22:42:57
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Currently, if you compare pulse lasers to blasters, you'll notice that pulse laser dps is only about 1/7 less than blaster dps, with 3.5x (or some such) the range. A typical pulse Geddon outdamages or does the same dps as a typical neutron blaster Mega, while having vastly better weapon range. Something is not quite right here.
Range is paid with double cap usage, 25% less tracking and 15% less raw damage output. EM damage got boosted...but you are always more flexible with Kin/Th-Damage. Blasters still do 20-25% more damage on Omni-Armortank just because of resists. So we got about 40% more damage on common armortanks, superior tracking and the Ability to fit an active Tank without the Need of a 2nd cap booster....all at the cost of range. But wait..blasters got null ammo. Nerfs Tracking on a hyperion to Mega Pulse value while doing more damage on armor and has better range (its my opinion. i'd like to trade some optimal for more falloff on my lasers when firing with multi) compared to faction multifrequency.
Why are you making blasters so bad? they are awesome. only disadvantage is...you can not fit scorch on it :-/
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:53:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 22:55:06 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 22:54:23 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 22:53:59
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Some how Minmatar pilots always seem to forget this, as usual. I think the answer here is more top speed for Gallente ships, the BS specifically, and something like triple the tracking.
Gallente BS already outtrack everything (Neutrons>800s tracking wise) and you happen to have a tracking boosted battleship as well. The other one can fit dual webs.
Battleships track battleships just fine anyway.
And top speed? My Typhoon goes 840m/s now. It's a change to all the BS and relatively speaking you're not worse at all.
Furthermore, give us back cap use for battleship guns, but give 20+% more DPS please. I'll take that any time of the freaking day. Also buff our capacitors to gallente levels as well. I mean, hey, you only outdamage a Tempest in a blasterthron up to disruptor range now, but we don't need cap, yay.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:02:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 30/07/2008 22:42:57
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Currently, if you compare pulse lasers to blasters, you'll notice that pulse laser dps is only about 1/7 less than blaster dps, with 3.5x (or some such) the range. A typical pulse Geddon outdamages or does the same dps as a typical neutron blaster Mega, while having vastly better weapon range. Something is not quite right here.
Range is paid with double cap usage, 25% less tracking and 15% less raw damage output. EM damage got boosted...but you are always more flexible with Kin/Th-Damage. Blasters still do 20-25% more damage on Omni-Armortank just because of resists. So we got about 40% more damage on common armortanks, superior tracking and the Ability to fit an active Tank without the Need of a 2nd cap booster....all at the cost of range. But wait..blasters got null ammo. Nerfs Tracking on a hyperion to Mega Pulse value while doing more damage on armor and has better range (its my opinion. i'd like to trade some optimal for more falloff on my lasers when firing with multi) compared to faction multifrequency.
Why are you making blasters so bad? they are awesome. only disadvantage is...you can not fit scorch on it :-/
The optimal for Neutron IIs with Null is 11km with max skills, and when fit to a Hyperion does 64 DPS. A single Megapulse II fit on an Armageddon with Amarr Navy Multifreq. has an optimal of 15, which is a 36% increase, and does 74 DPS, a 15.6% increase.
So no. No way in hell does a Neutron II with Null outperform a Megapulse II with multifreq.
Tracking on the Neutron II with Null is 0.04059, Tracking on the Megapulse II is 0.04219 by the way.
So let's review: You're wrong about the blasters having more DPS. You're wrong about the blasters having more range (optimal specifically). And you're wrong about the blasters having more tracking.
And on the issue of cap use: Megapulse 2 use 45.83% more cap/sec when firing AN MF compared to a Neutron II firing Null. So no, it's not 'twice' the cap use. It's less than 50% more.
Care to make up any more random data?
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:08:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 30/07/2008 23:15:20 Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 30/07/2008 23:15:10 Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 30/07/2008 23:10:39
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 22:55:06 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 22:54:23 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 22:53:59
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Some how Minmatar pilots always seem to forget this, as usual. I think the answer here is more top speed for Gallente ships, the BS specifically, and something like triple the tracking.
Gallente BS already outtrack everything (Neutrons>800s tracking wise) and you happen to have a tracking boosted battleship as well. The other one can fit dual webs.
Battleships track battleships just fine anyway.
And top speed? My Typhoon goes 840m/s now. It's a change to all the BS and relatively speaking you're not worse at all.
Furthermore, give us back cap use for battleship guns, but give 20+% more DPS please. I'll take that any time of the freaking day. Also buff our capacitors to gallente levels as well. I mean, hey, you only outdamage a Tempest in a blasterthron up to disruptor range now, but we don't need cap, yay.
Read my other thread about Min BS buffs etc. But that's beside the point.
I'm looking at my Tempest fit that I normally run: 922 DPS with my skills/implants, and I'd *estimate* keeping 80% of that at 18km. I fly both. I think Min BS are fine for use at what they are good at, which are endurance cap war fights.
EDIT: The Hype can fit dual webs and the Tempest can't? Now you're just being difficult for the sake of whining. Give me a break.
Edit a SECOND time:
Tracking for Neutron IIs using CN Antimatter (no tracking penalty): 0.05412
Tracking for 800 IIs with Rep. Fleet EMP (no tracking penalty): 0.0567
You and that other guy should get together and just sit around making up bullshit stats. I'm sure you'll get along great.
Every ship has it's strengths and shortcomings. The only problem now is that the new patch has removed all of the blaster ships' strengths, and hasn't changed any of their shortcomings.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:04:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Tracking for Neutron IIs using CN Antimatter (no tracking penalty): 0.05412
Tracking for 800 IIs with Rep. Fleet EMP (no tracking penalty): 0.0567
No. Perfect skills:
Tracking for Neutron IIs using Antimatter: 0.05412 Tracking for 800 IIs with EMP: 0.054 Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Dendo Ordoss
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:10:00 -
[146]
mind showing that pest setup?
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:03:00 -
[147]
What were your findings when you brought a tackler?
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:10:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 31/07/2008 01:11:31 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 31/07/2008 01:10:47 First on page 6 \o/
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
So let's review: You're wrong about the blasters having more DPS. You're wrong about the blasters having more range (optimal specifically). And you're wrong about the blasters having more tracking.
Just a question from a bystander, did you factor in average armor resistance on targets when looking at dps? I'm asking since on my armor tankers, em tends to be highest resist.
Half my shield tankers have em as highest resist too, but thats because I'm minmatar.
Generally, if you're shooting at me, you're way better off with kin/therm than em/therm.
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Pattern Clarc
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:13:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 31/07/2008 01:10:47 First on page 6 \o/
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
So let's review: You're wrong about the blasters having more DPS. You're wrong about the blasters having more range (optimal specifically). And you're wrong about the blasters having more tracking.
Just a question from a bystander, did you factor in average armor resistance on targets when looking at dps? I'm asking since on my armor tankers, em tends to be highest resist.
Half my shield tankers have em as highest resist too, but thats because I'm minmatar.
I haven't read the whole thread, but if your talking about max dps, the typhoon more than out ganks a megathron, and thats before armor/shield **** damage type.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:16:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc I haven't read the whole thread, but if your talking about max dps, the typhoon more than out ganks a megathron, and thats before armor/shield **** damage type.
They were comparing Neutron IIs vs. Megapulse IIs.
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