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Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:05:00 - [31] Originally by: FlameGlow There are no rewards for being in NPC corp therefore there is no risc of wardec, looks ok - DesuSigs
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FlameGlow There are no rewards for being in NPC corp therefore there is no risc of wardec, looks ok Define "reward"… Ability to put a POS and use it, entire corp having agro on loot thief? Those are available when it's just you and your alts in corp, real corps have other benefits too _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:19:00 - [33] Originally by: FlameGlow Ability to put a POS and use it, entire corp having agro on loot thief? Those are available when it's just you and your alts in corp, real corps have other benefits too On the other hand, the tax rate and daily running costs for NPC corpers are zero. That would count as a reward.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FlameGlow Ability to put a POS and use it, entire corp having agro on loot thief? Those are available when it's just you and your alts in corp, real corps have other benefits too On the other hand, the tax rate and daily running costs for NPC corpers are zero. That would count as a reward. My corp has zero tax rate. And it's got a nice, organizable hangar, and allows me all these nifty 'order for the corp' functions. I get my own office, I get my own customizable nicknames, and if I'm ever wardec'd, I can leave my alt in the corp and just hop out into an NPC corp ... or really **** off the enemy, and make a new one ;?j Remove the invincibility of npc corps, and then you have to address the ease of running your own corp. I can corp hop all day. You don't have to be in an NPC corp to be invincible. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Ruze Remove the invincibility of npc corps, and then you have to address the ease of running your own corp. I can corp hop all day. You don't have to be in an NPC corp to be invincible. Forcing you to corp hop would be a start at least. - DesuSigs
Mordekai Bloodwake The Phoenix Enclave	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Ki An Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP. and then watch all the new players come and leave! No Thanks!, id rather grow Eve's player base which will lead to more PvP, rather than just keeping the same ole same ole. If you cant kill then thats your problem, go elsewhere.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Ruze Remove the invincibility of npc corps, and then you have to address the ease of running your own corp. I can corp hop all day. You don't have to be in an NPC corp to be invincible. …and on the other hand, as I keep mentioning in other threads that bring this up (I don't think I've done it here yet): to make NPC corps less enticing, you need to make it far easier to find a PC corp you might want to join. I don't stay in SAK to stay safe – I do it because I have no way of finding a corp I want to join that I also actually can join. Hopping around between fifty-eleven different corps only to discover that they're all run by megalomaniac numpties is not a solution. In the meantime, the longer I stay in SAK, the more people I get to know there and the less inclined I am to leave. …the question in my mind is just how it could be made easier – I really don't have any useful ideas.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:37:00 - [38] I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps. I would add to this idea by saying that even if you don't have 5 million SPs but have been in-game for a certain time (maybe the time it takes to train up a friggin Hulk and turn on your macro program) you also get moved into a militia. You can of course choose to join a different Empire's militia before or after this time, depending on your standings, but never again will you be able to be a member of a non-deccable corp.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Dirk Magnum I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps. I can't really see how it would solve anything. You would still be undeccable by the people you annoy, and it's not particularly hard to stay away from the roaming gangs of the enemy factions. They'd only be a threat if they randomly happened to stumble across you (while being chased by navy NPCs in a hostile system). They'd have very little reason to actively hunt you down they way they would if you were subject to a real wardec, mainly because you'd go on missioning and mining and never draw any attention to yourself.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:43:00 - [40] If you really want to address macro issues, then make it simple. Players cannot use mining barges or exhumers in high-sec space. One good reason for this is because Empires USE those asteroids for their own navies and whatnot. It might be one thing to give someone a license to take out a vexor and mine, but to allow them in a full barge? I don't think an Empire would really allow that. Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills. Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system.

Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:45:00 - [41] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Dirk Magnum I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps. I can't really see how it would solve anything. You would still be undeccable by the people you annoy, and it's not particularly hard to stay away from the roaming gangs of the enemy factions. They'd only be a threat if they randomly happened to stumble across you (while being chased by navy NPCs in a hostile system). They'd have very little reason to actively hunt you down they way they would if you were subject to a real wardec, mainly because you'd go on missioning and mining and never draw any attention to yourself. But is your intent to increase the RISK involved, or to make the target something you can wardec? I think the intent should be to increase the risk. If they get into the militia as an involuntary sign-up, they may start looking for an active corporation to move into. If not, they WILL have that inevitable risk of being caught in a system by a roving militia gang.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Ruze If you really want to address macro issues, then make it simple. Players cannot use mining barges or exhumers in high-sec space. One good reason for this is because Empires USE those asteroids for their own navies and whatnot. It might be one thing to give someone a license to take out a vexor and mine, but to allow them in a full barge? I don't think an Empire would really allow that. Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills. Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system. If it came to this I'd support it. I'd support the trial account change immediately, but there's probably a more moderate solution to the macro problem though. Maybe like limiting Exhumers to Low Sec, as opposed to all barges.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:56:00 - [43] Originally by: Ruze But is your intent to increase the RISK involved, or to make the target something you can wardec? I think the intent should be to increase the risk. If they get into the militia as an involuntary sign-up, they may start looking for an active corporation to move into. If not, they WILL have that inevitable risk of being caught in a system by a roving militia gang. True enough, I suppose. It does highlight the confused matter of the issue though: in the whole "risk vs reward" debate about NPC corps, exactly what risks are we talking about?
Minami Sayuri	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:08:00 - [44] It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following: 1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions. 2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day. 3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp. Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp. Starter corps should be crutches for new players, not a money-making safe haven for older players. If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp.
Nur Vadenn Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Tippia I don't stay in SAK to stay safe û I do it because I have no way of finding a corp I want to join that I also actually can join. Hopping around between fifty-eleven different corps only to discover that they're all run by megalomaniac numpties is not a solution. In the meantime, the longer I stay in SAK, the more people I get to know there and the less inclined I am to leave. àthe question in my mind is just how it could be made easier û I really don't have any useful ideas. This. Essentially as a legit player in an NPC corporation I've found the ôgrindö surrounding looking for a good corporation less and less interesting. With the atmosphere of EVE and the level of distrust that is hammered into players from day one it is a major undertaking to find a corporation and actually join it. Combine that with the horrible set of tools to locate potential corporations and you end up deciding to play the game and enjoy yourself instead of burning your in-game time looking for a corporation. As an NPC corporation member I am already penalized with sanctions. I can't use or get into a sizeable portion of game content unless I make my own corporation or join a player run one. I only get a scant few benefits for these sanctions. Really the system is slanted against me, but it is fine as it is. Could this just be a case of the grass is always greener on the other side? --- The Lurker
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Nur Vadenn As an NPC corporation member I am already penalized with sanctions. I can't use or get into a sizeable portion of game content unless I make my own corporation or join a player run one. I only get a scant few benefits for these sanctions. Really the system is slanted against me, but it is fine as it is. Such as? You can't have your own POS, and you can't war dec anyone. That's really it. I have no idea why I'm in my own corp apart from that I plan to start recruiting at some point, and I thought I wanted to run my own small POS (that idea got old really quick.)
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:17:00 - [47] didn't the op emoragequit over bacon already? cause i was sorta hoping he did. - -
Sorted Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Faife didn't the op emoragequit over bacon already? cause i was sorta hoping he did. nar he just took a break to hump ur mom. now its my turn Vote against the nano nerf! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371
Nur Vadenn Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Minami Sayuri It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following: 1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions. 2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day. 3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp. Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp. Starter corps should be crutches for new players, not a money-making safe haven for older players. If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp. You can read chapter and verse throughout the forums expounding the virtues and advantages of joining a player corporation right now. Usually these claims are made in as non-specific a way as possible. The cynic in me says these virtues remain ambiguous because they mostly are either exaggeration or don't exist at all. If player corporations are so wonderful why do they need a crutch like this? Oh, and what happens to all of us non-money making alts that get screwed over by your changes? --- The Lurker
DogSlime Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:23:00 - [50] This might actually be cool... It would need to be done very carefully, though, otherwise it would just be a turkey-shoot for people looking for cheap kills.

Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:25:00 - [51] Seriously nothing will be done about this till they address the War Dec situation. Like it or not the Devs agree with common sense. That the current War decs are just license to grief(yes grief its not about stealing loot its just about giving casual corp with 10 or so players a hard time ussually.) What happens is some guys make a corp. They dont have good skills maybe one or 2 owns a battleship. They have fun, run missions together and occassionally try out low sec in cruisers or something they can afford to lose. The a group of high skill players with HACs etc. war decs them. A couple of them get ambushed and losse there best ships, no one can earn any money to replace the ships because their junky ships get ganked quickly. So what happens? Half the corp quits and the rest moves to an NPC corp and waits a year till they have skills to get recruited to a powerful corp. Until you fix War Decs you have no choice but to live with the unfortunate side effect of super high skill players never leaving high sec. Wherever you went - here you are.
hall monitor	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Ki An Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP. That's my plan! Run level 4 missions all day. Please. Us noobs need money too and not all of us can spend our life online in a corp. And so what if we do? Why do you care? Does everyone have to be JUST LIKE Y O U? A: No.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:28:00 - [53] Originally by: Ghoest Seriously nothing will be done about this till they address the War Dec situation. Like it or not the Devs agree with common sense. That the current War decs are just license to grief(yes grief its not about stealing loot its just about giving casual corp with 10 or so players a hard time ussually.) What happens is some guys make a corp. They dont have good skills maybe one or 2 owns a battleship. They have fun, run missions together and occassionally try out low sec in cruisers or something they can afford to lose. The a group of high skill players with HACs etc. war decs them. A couple of them get ambushed and losse there best ships, no one can earn any money to replace the ships because their junky ships get ganked quickly. So what happens? Half the corp quits and the rest moves to an NPC corp and waits a year till they have skills to get recruited to a powerful corp. Until you fix War Decs you have no choice but to live with the unfortunate side effect of super high skill players never leaving high sec. A quick-fix to this problem might be to allow a dec'd corp to pay CONCORD to cancel the war. Pricing could be based on how many people are in the corp trying to pay off CONCORD, and it would be a sliding scale so a fifty man corp buying off CONCORD would pay MORE than ten times what a five man corp would pay. This idea has some flaws but like I said, quick fix. CCP would just have to make sure they told people that this was a temporary solution until they figure out something better.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Minami Sayuri It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following: 1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions. 2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day. 3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp. …never mind the fact that you can make far more money from non-mission activities. This means you must restrict every other game activity along the same lines, which makes your solution the same as reducing NPC corp players to the same level as trial members. As long as NPC corpers still pay for their subscriptions, that won't happen. Quote: Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp. As long as it's not dead-simple to find an alternative, people won't leave, no matter how "worth it" it is. Apparently, PC corps are not worth it at the moment – the question is: is this a fault of the game or the owners of those PC corps? Quote: If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp. …and as a bonus, you make it more or less impossible to build any connection outside the NPC corp, thereby further reducing the incentive (and ability) to ever leave the corp behind.
Aria Seniste	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Ruze Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills. Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system. This is an awful idea. The game is already limited enough to trial players; too limited, really. A new player who wants to try FW will not be able to without upgrading to a paying account. Now, they lose even more trainable skills, can't even talk to other players effectively, can't even explore lowsec? ...You do realize that the point of a trial is to make a good impression on a potential player, right? Fun fact: Making them feel unwanted and taking even more fun out of the game is not the way to do this. Waaaah, I have to block some idiot macro spammer and so everyone should suffer. I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO RIGHT CLICK
Minami Sayuri	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Nur Vadenn Originally by: Minami Sayuri It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following: 1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions. 2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day. 3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp. Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp. Starter corps should be crutches for new players, not a money-making safe haven for older players. If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp. You can read chapter and verse throughout the forums expounding the virtues and advantages of joining a player corporation right now. Usually these claims are made in as non-specific a way as possible. The cynic in me says these virtues remain ambiguous because they mostly are either exaggeration or don't exist at all. If player corporations are so wonderful why do they need a crutch like this? Oh, and what happens to all of us non-money making alts that get screwed over by your changes? My point was not about player corps needing a crutch to get more recruits nor was it an argument about the "virtue" of joining a player corp. My post was entirely about people who are specifically abusing the safety net of NPC corps. If you are in a player corp, you at least run the risk of getting wardecced by another corp. A player in an NPC corp has no such risk and therefore can run missions all day or run a mining bot with no risk except from the occasional suicide ganker (a tactic that has pretty much been nullified by CCP's planned changes to security). If you can't find a corp you want to join, it really doesn't take a lot of resources to start your own... A 10-minute skill training and a little ISK is enough to open a 1-man corp where you would be free to run all the missions and AFK mine as you want WITH the risk of being war decced...
Yelan Zhou Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:42:00 - [57] Uhm Iam pretty sure i was able to enter lowsec on my trial. War, War never changes.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Aria Seniste Originally by: Ruze Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills. Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system. This is an awful idea. The game is already limited enough to trial players; too limited, really. A new player who wants to try FW will not be able to without upgrading to a paying account. Now, they lose even more trainable skills, can't even talk to other players effectively, can't even explore lowsec? ...You do realize that the point of a trial is to make a good impression on a potential player, right? Fun fact: Making them feel unwanted and taking even more fun out of the game is not the way to do this. Waaaah, I have to block some idiot macro spammer and so everyone should suffer. I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO RIGHT CLICK The big issue is that trial accounts are used for spys and alts. I know they are. I use them myself. And I recognize it as an exploit in the system. You make a trial account, you spend a day or two grinding missions, and then you have a dozen days to use that alt to monitor a races chat channel or to coast in a noob frigate through low-sec space as a scout. I firmly believe in restricting their chat channels, yes. They can WATCH other channels, but they can't speak. They can receive mail, but they can't send. This does work, as it works in many other games, including the restricted zones. Personally, I think that the skills they can train are enough. Two weeks? Yeah, that's is long enough to get a NEW player hooked, or to convince a new player not to play. Just my opinion, but trial accounts are the number one exploited function of this game, and they need to be 'fixed'. Not removed completely, but limited to where and how they can interact, yes. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:03:00 - [59] i knew there was something wrong when i woke up this morning, little did i know the extent... Plain and simple, you should be booted from NPC corps after 12 months or once u hit 10 mil SP, which ever comes first. Anyone who has over 10m SP should be moved into their respective FW militias.
Nur Vadenn Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:03:00 - [60] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Nur Vadenn As an NPC corporation member I am already penalized with sanctions. I can't use or get into a sizeable portion of game content unless I make my own corporation or join a player run one. I only get a scant few benefits for these sanctions. Really the system is slanted against me, but it is fine as it is. Such as? You can't have your own POS, and you can't war dec anyone. That's really it. I have no idea why I'm in my own corp apart from that I plan to start recruiting at some point, and I thought I wanted to run my own small POS (that idea got old really quick.) There are both game mechanic and social sanctions I have encountered. Game mechanics include. Can't own/operate POS Can't fully operate capital ships (except jump freighters) Gimped theft agro mechanics. Steal from me and the rest of Vizam does not get kill rights Can't declare war on corporations and alliances No corporation assets or shared access The more social based sanctions are driven mainly by the distrust and paranoia inspired by the game's nature. Understandable in some cases, but it still places a damper on gameplay occasionally. I have been/am currently in an NPC corporation for ôxö amount of time I therefore MUST BE a scammer/spy/scout/alt/macro. As a presumed scammer/spy/scout/alt/macro I will be kill on sight to everyone everywhere no matter what. I should not be extended any curtisy common or otherwise because I am obviously a scammer/spy/scout/alt/macro. Having lived with these in EVE for the past 6 months or so I've come to expect them, but they are disadvantages that are more than annoyance in many situations. --- The Lurker



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