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Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.06 22:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Webster Carr I don't see a fairness issue. You don't? You think it's fair that one particular play style is both easier and more profitable than another, supposedly equally valid, play style? I don't think that's fair. Either both should be equally easy (pre-suicide gank nerf) or the harder one should pay significantly more. After this nerf, it won't. Originally by: Webster Carr Besides not being able to blow someone up that's talking smack unless they come to low sec...and really aren't we a bit more adult that that? Completely beside the point. If someone upsets me in local, who are you to say that I should not be able to have my revenge? Besides, this game used to be about facing the consequences for your actions. That particular character of the game has faced multiple nerfs these last years. Originally by: Webster Carr Using 'neutral' shipping for supply is pretty unavoidable... As the system is now, yes. However, with a revised system, it wouldn't be unavoidable. Originally by: Webster Carr Now in order to use said materials they have to enter low sec at some point...and then they're fair game. Liquid isk does not have to pass through low sec to exchange hands. Nor do the mission runners. They'll just clone jump. Originally by: Webster Carr I think far more people want to war dec NPC corps as a griefing mechanism to find low risk PVP targets than any other possible reason. That's a pretty wild assumption. Care to present any proof what-so-ever, or should we just take this comment for what it is - complete BS? Originally by: Webster Carr The 'gain' to the game by allowing just doesn't seem to outweigh the downside... It completely outweighs, outruns and annihilates the downside. That's because there really isn't any downside. Unless you count making risk-adverse people actually partake in the 'non-consentual' part of the non-consentual PvP game as a downside.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.06 22:53:00 - [92] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: ccp navigator Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator Oh really? Then where the hell were you in sucide gank whine threads 2-4746? You couldnt make this up. SKUNK Or the hundreds of nanowhine threads. Pathetic CCP. Vote against the nano nerf!
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.06 22:56:00 - [93] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: ccp navigator Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator Oh really? Then where the hell were you in sucide gank whine threads 2-4746? You couldnt make this up. SKUNK Well I suppose that answers the question about where CCP are taking the game. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Al Thorr Caldari The Wheel	Posted - 2008.08.06 23:04:00 - [94] Maybe one solution would be the implementation of an increasing taxation of players based on their stay in the npc corp - 1 month. For example a 2% per month increase in corp tax. up to a max of 75%. It doesnt re set either should you leave. (after all we have an employment history might as well use it.) eg New player 0% for 1st month. 2nd Month 2% , 3rd Month 4% etc etc one benefit farmers would lose too much isk to remain safe. Just an idea Regards Al Thorr "You cant polish a turd" - The new rendered font is living proof.
Webster Carr Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey	Posted - 2008.08.06 23:20:00 - [95] Edited by: Webster Carr on 06/08/2008 23:21:54 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Webster Carr I don't see a fairness issue. You don't? You think it's fair that one particular play style is both easier and more profitable than another, supposedly equally valid, play style? I don't think that's fair. Either both should be equally easy (pre-suicide gank nerf) or the harder one should pay significantly more. After this nerf, it won't. You're trying to make war profitable? Since when have wars been profitable to anyone? Even the winners take a long time to recoup their losses from gained territory. And guess what? NPC corps can't hold territory...the is simply NO fairness/profitability reason to allow it. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Webster Carr Besides not being able to blow someone up that's talking smack unless they come to low sec...and really aren't we a bit more adult that that? Completely beside the point. If someone upsets me in local, who are you to say that I should not be able to have my revenge? Besides, this game used to be about facing the consequences for your actions. That particular character of the game has faced multiple nerfs these last years. If someone upsets you while the law is watching, you either have to wait for them to walk down the street and turn a corner (i.e. enter low sec) to do something about it or accept the legal consequences. Since I've been playing the game there has always been High Sec and it's always worked this way. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Webster Carr Using 'neutral' shipping for supply is pretty unavoidable... As the system is now, yes. However, with a revised system, it wouldn't be unavoidable. Actually I was thinking in RL. You can't attack neutral shipping, even if you suspect them of supplying your enemy without a war crimes charge (i.e. Concord response) unless you do it in some out of the way place where you don't get caught (i.e. low sec.) Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Webster Carr I think far more people want to war dec NPC corps as a griefing mechanism to find low risk PVP targets than any other possible reason. That's a pretty wild assumption. Care to present any proof what-so-ever, or should we just take this comment for what it is - complete BS? My proof is personal experience. In the small corps/alliances I've been in until recently there were several war decs on us. Not a single one of them involved any sort of territory, grieviance, or slight. Without exception they were corps looking for 'safe' high security targets. Now imagine what said corps could do with the hundreds of unprepared and uninformed targets in an NPC corp? Griefing, pure and simple, which is ok up to a point...and that point is .4 space and below or with severe 'legal' consequences in .5 space and above. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Webster Carr The 'gain' to the game by allowing just doesn't seem to outweigh the downside... It completely outweighs, outruns and annihilates the downside. That's because there really isn't any downside. Unless you count making risk-adverse people actually partake in the 'non-consentual' part of the non-consentual PvP game as a downside. Nonsense. There are plenty of Player Corps/Alliances to war dec, there is simply no reason to war dec the NPC corps other than the rank cowardice of trying to find uninformed and unprepared griefing targets. Don't try to force everyone to play the same way you do. I personally never attack another player except to defend myself or corp/alliance assets. You want to grief, go ahead, just accept the logical consequence if you do it in high sec. Webb
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:32:00 - [96] What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too?
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:48:00 - [97] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 00:49:45 Originally by: Ki An Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP. The man has a very valid point. If CCP doesn't want people to suicide gank, then bloody well make them wardeccable. Or just push people over two months old in default 1-man player corps. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:49:00 - [98] Originally by: Napro What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too? Because said people are hurting me and other players who are not in high-sec noobcorps by printing ISK. Hello, competitive MMO. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:57:00 - [99] Originally by: Napro What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too? The problem is that, from the beginning, EVERYONE has been subjective to PvP in some shape, form or fashion. That is what makes this game so great for many. But with each passing change, we lose OUR game (the PvP-centered, every man for themselves, come-with-it-all or leave-with-nothing game), and you gain yours. My biggest complaint is that those who are in high-sec are forgetting that the market is PvP, too. And while Bill goes into low-sec and risks himself every day, Jim sits in high-sec running multiple missions, and can sell the loot and his LP rewards, without ever being under direct risk of losing out. You can't exist in EvE without dealing with other players. When you buy a ship, another player produced it. When you buy a module, it was either made or looted by another player. Every step you take, you are participating in PvP. But your saying you want the one side, without the risk of the other? Meanwhile, other players actually want MORE! They want more missions, with better payouts. They want more factory slots, and more asteroids. They want everything the rest of the game requires you to fight and die for, but they want it without the fighting and dying part. There is a serious imbalance between the PvP and PvE side of this game. If the only loot you could get from the PvE side was meta 1 or 2, and unnamed modules? If the isk you gained from doing missions in high-sec was severely limited? If you could only run T1 BPO's and were limited to the number of factories you could run in high-sec? And if you weren't allowed to use Exhumers ... or maybe even barges? Then there would be no problem, because you wouldn't be AS imbalanced as before. If you want the good stuff, you NEED to go to low-sec and 0.0 to get it. Plain and simple. And if you want complete security and safety, you need to make a hefty sacrifice of how much of the game you are going to enjoy. If your not willing to participate, you don't deserve anything. That's my opinion, anyhow. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Seliane Wildstar	Posted - 2008.08.07 01:22:00 - [100] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Napro What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too? Because said people are hurting me and other players who are not in high-sec noobcorps by printing ISK. Hello, competitive MMO. Because you choose not to be in a NPC corp and run mission, you think those that are should be forced to change thier gameplay to accomadate you? As you all are so fond of saying, EVE isn't fair, deal with it. Sorry to break this to you but since you all seem to be missing the obvious, CCP does not feel the same way about NPC Corps as the whiners do. Do they have to actually come out and say in simple English that you will not force PvP onto people who don't wish to PvP. You know what, it's thier game. They change it how they wish and your only choices are play or take your money elsewhere. As for your jealousy over other peoples isk making, that's a personal problem you have to learn to deal with. Does it really bother you that people can play the game and your little in-game existance can be totally irrelevant to them? Again, sounds like a personal issue which is something CCP does not deal in.

Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.07 01:25:00 - [101] Lol OP is just butthurt that there aren't enough easy targets available, so he wants more. Also, with LVL4 missions if they kick you out of NPC corps you just corp hop whenever you get a wardec. If they slow down corp hopping you just get 3 alts and then corphop at a slower pace.
Seliane Wildstar	Posted - 2008.08.07 01:28:00 - [102] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Napro What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too? The problem is that, from the beginning, EVERYONE has been subjective to PvP in some shape, form or fashion. That is what makes this game so great for many. But with each passing change, we lose OUR game (the PvP-centered, every man for themselves, come-with-it-all or leave-with-nothing game), and you gain yours. My biggest complaint is that those who are in high-sec are forgetting that the market is PvP, too. And while Bill goes into low-sec and risks himself every day, Jim sits in high-sec running multiple missions, and can sell the loot and his LP rewards, without ever being under direct risk of losing out. You can't exist in EvE without dealing with other players. When you buy a ship, another player produced it. When you buy a module, it was either made or looted by another player. Every step you take, you are participating in PvP. But your saying you want the one side, without the risk of the other? Meanwhile, other players actually want MORE! They want more missions, with better payouts. They want more factory slots, and more asteroids. They want everything the rest of the game requires you to fight and die for, but they want it without the fighting and dying part. There is a serious imbalance between the PvP and PvE side of this game. If the only loot you could get from the PvE side was meta 1 or 2, and unnamed modules? If the isk you gained from doing missions in high-sec was severely limited? If you could only run T1 BPO's and were limited to the number of factories you could run in high-sec? And if you weren't allowed to use Exhumers ... or maybe even barges? Then there would be no problem, because you wouldn't be AS imbalanced as before. If you want the good stuff, you NEED to go to low-sec and 0.0 to get it. Plain and simple. And if you want complete security and safety, you need to make a hefty sacrifice of how much of the game you are going to enjoy. If your not willing to participate, you don't deserve anything. That's my opinion, anyhow. Ruze, Well thought out and I respect your opinion however, with the kind of game you described, you wouldn't log in to see a server status of 35,000+ people and CCP afterall, is in the business of wanting to see those large login numbers. While as you say, that would make a great game for many, CCP has found that the game as is is making a great game for many, many more people so that is why they choose to do the things they do.
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.07 02:06:00 - [103] Edited by: Kage Psychodin on 07/08/2008 02:06:37 It just can't change. I Remember all the people who built up vast fortunes relatively risk free back in the days of tech 2 BPO lotteries. I Remember as of even last week how I snagged a billion implant off junk 0.0 space, and have a full mission runner alt grinding away a few million a day here and there. I have ships, and a decent wallet. Many new players will never if NPC corps change to the point of what people are saying. YES, they need to be able to build up their own little fleet of ships from frigs to battleships safely. because we all already have that and more. Another one bites the dust.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.07 02:06:00 - [104] Originally by: Seliane Wildstar Because you choose not to be in a NPC corp and run mission, you think those that are should be forced to change thier gameplay to accomadate you? As you all are so fond of saying, EVE isn't fair, deal with it. Excuse me, but why should muppets like you get game mechanics advantages over everyone else? Because people in NPC corps do get them. Also, get this. EvE is a competitive game. I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but if there's a risk free way of making tons of ISK (and LOL at your assertion it's all players who 'don't want to PvP' - tons of it is PvPers, because it's the best way to make the ISK, and you can't prevent that sort of logistics), it does affect me and everyone else. The fact you cannot grasp the concept of a competitive games or risk/reward doesn't make you any more right, mr forum alt. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.08.07 02:35:00 - [105] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: ccp navigator Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator Oh really? Then where the hell were you in sucide gank whine threads 2-4746? You couldnt make this up. SKUNK Or the hundreds of nanowhine threads. Pathetic CCP. Selective and/or lazy moderation... Hold all threads to the same standard or don't create it in the first place. Click me! You know you want to...
Khamal Jolstien Caldari The Monkey Sanctuary	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:44:00 - [106] Originally by: Ki An Guys, spread the word! Start your own threads! /signed. This is apparently the best way to get changes. Nevermind the majority of EVE not paying attention to the forums (and the LOLCSM for that matter).
Ashen Angel Minmatar AA Mining	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:13:00 - [107] Yes, lets give all the NPC corp members the incentive to just form small one to five man corporations Suddenly there will be whinges about how corps should be larger because the mass of small corps make it impossible to deal with all the competition because those corps can still work together. All macros would do is form one man corps for every miner, file a wardec and then poof they shift corps leaving an alt in the old one if necessary. The only nerf to suicide ganks is making people work for it. it's going to be a bit more though put into it. So no more popping T1 industrials just as they leave Jita 4-4 on the off chance the loot might bring a profit... you're going to have to scan the cargo holds and do the math before you decide to shoot.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:46:00 - [108] Originally by: Mire Stoude As someone who supports the recent changes, I also support this. Players shouldn't be able to do certain things if they are in a NPC corp (FW would be an exception). They shouldn't be able to undock in an exhumer/barge or run level 4 missions. this, plain and simple RP reasons: they dont want any one single person to be able to "monopolize" in game resources RP reasons for the L4 missions: they are to dangerous for the "average" citizen of the Gallente / Minmatar / Amarr / Caldari empire, and they wont allow you to risk your life since you shouldnt have the same resources as if you were in a corp ding ding ding, i honestly, dont see anything wrong with this, the noobs can run their l3's while being in an NPC corp, which can be a reasonable income given a good quality l3 agent + salvage and loot and it would make Macro Miners targettable
Joey Meow MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:53:00 - [109] NPC corps are here to stay, whatever you wish to say. It would be counterproductive to remove them, since allot of people rely on NPC corporations for that added degree of safety against somewhat flawed War Declaration mechanics currently in game. CCP will never remove them without giving people an alternative. Like, for example, an "Independent" or "unaffiliated" status. Which would pretty much mean the same thing, where you can not war declare an individual, since it can be used as means to harass someone, and the players are further removed from the social interaction.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:53:00 - [110] What? another topic on this, Ki An, right there with Akita T? What are you the two morons of EvE forums that spout crap any time you like it? No, nothing is out of order or out of place or out of balance or out of.. whatever the hell you might want to make the forums say or do or make it out to be. CCP is responding to an increased grief play. That is not related to missions, that is related to griefing of players that want to enjoy the game. If you don't get that go bang your head on a cement pole until you grasp the idea. And stop posting on everything you might think you might want to see what people might want to think about .. maybe.. I'm disgusted by your posts, can you tell ????

Ragnar Darkstar	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:38:00 - [111] NPC corps serve several useful purposes. (1) Relatively safe haven for new players; (2) Allow solo game play; and (3) Prevent people from being hounded out of EvE entirely. Most of the proposals I see ignore 2 and 3 entirely and focus only on 1. As a solo player myself, 2 and 3 are much more important. For solo players, I suspect that war deccing our 1 person corps will make the game unplayable for us. You pretty much can't solo PVP in this game, so by definition we'll be flying noncombatants or PVE fitted warships, which means that it isn't going to be too much sport for a small 2+ person gang to destroy us. We'll just become griefer bait for 1337 PVPers who will get reward for almost no risk. Further, NPC corps also serve as a last-ditch safety net preventing someone from being run out of the game entirely. You can be kicked from your guild, lose all your ships, and podded back to highsec. But you can grind missions in a NPC corp and start over from nothing. Take away the NPC corp and people will just wardec them repeatedly, making any kind of play impossible until they quit. I've been in MMOs where people can be hounded from the game. It isn't pretty. I don't see how you can deal with issues 2 and 3 without a NPC corp or something virtually identical. I also don't see why this is a crisis. EvE has plenty of PVP targets available.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.08.07 06:22:00 - [112] ok how about treat starting corp like trail(sp?) account. limited there functions! Also same with Any NPC when someone leave a corp! basicly cant fly a cruiser when your in a NPC corp! So the player is force into a corp! If they hop from one corp to another to avoid war then u can get a GM to deal with them. Trinity Corporate Services
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:00:00 - [113] Originally by: Animenick What, so you griefers can dec anyone who even crosses your path the wrong way? How are new people to the game supposed to better themselves? And the SP requirement for a war dec doesn't work. Even if you have 10mil SP, getting hunted by a 2003/2004 char is sure death. The fact is there are some serious jerks in this game who will go out of the way to make it so miserable that you would quit. Making it viable to dec someone in an NPC corp will just make it easier for the control freaks to make this game hell to some. Did you read about EVE when you started? Did you NOT realize it was a PVP oriented game? How is it you can justify coming into a PVP oriented game and then b*tch when you are put in a situation where you will have to PVP? I never got people like you, and all the other guys who want EVE wrapped in a safety blanket. The allure of this game is not so much the interweb space ships, its the fun, the thrill of the hunt, the fights (that don't black screen lag death). What part of the game description led you to believe you have the right to be safe somewhere, or ANYWHERE in this game save a station?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:08:00 - [114] Originally by: Webster Carr People have different ways of playing the game, for some people it is NOT a PVP-centric game. Playstyle makes no difference. There isn't a single part of ≡v≡ that isn't PvP in some form – not even missions. You're always competing with other players. You're always running the risk of being beaten to the punch (or just being plain old beaten). Ignoring this fact means you don't understand why things happen in the game. ≡v≡ is a PvP-centric game no matter how much these players are trying to ignore it.
Sannah Ur	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:34:00 - [115] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl i killed 2004 chars with 5mln sp whine more Could've been me. My main is from april 2004 with currently 4M SPs of which most is in industry :D
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.07 10:08:00 - [116] Originally by: Ki An You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Wrong. They can be suicided as long as you want. After the nerf it costs just a bit more. But once they have good modules on them it becomes again profitable. And what do you think will happen if everyone feels safe again? Yes? They will put on the expensive modules to their ships again. So quit your stupid whining and go elsewhere trolling.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:32:00 - [117] Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE! Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec. Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:30:00 - [118] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 07/08/2008 16:33:06 What you're asking for is to make Eve a PvP mandatory game so that you can PvP anyone you wanna, anywhere. Right now, EvE isn't a PvP mandatory game. You can have a nice little (though very limiting) career as a PvE only player (missioning, minding, inventing, building) if you want to. In most MMOs, PvP servers and PvE servers are usually segregated, so that both kinds of players have a place to play. Eve doesn't do that. It has a damn good (IMO) system whereby both kinds of players can play on the same server. 0.0 is ======> that way. There is all the PvP you could ever want out there. Go get it. What? That doesn't fit your "play style" you say? Glad you mentioned that. You seem to be demanding respect for your play style while showing none for the play styles of others. Grow up? NPC corps are there for a reason. They are specifically for those who want to play in a PvE only style. If CCP changes that, and makes it a game that is "PvP Mandatory" they'll just run a certain segment of their player base off. I doubt they're dumb enough to do that, which is probably why they're addressing the issue of suicide ganking in the first place.
Plave Okice Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:37:00 - [119] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine What you're asking for is to make Eve a PvP mandatory game Not quite true, we'd like to keep it that way, not make it that way, because that's what it's always been. Personally I'd move any character older than 3 months old into the militia, but I know it would never happen, the newer, younger, masses wouldn't stand for it. Neither would the newer devs who never played "old eve" and really don't understand what this game used to be. Would you like to know more?
Plave Okice Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:40:00 - [120] Originally by: Ruze Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE! Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec. Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit. I'll vote for you Would you like to know more?



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