Originally by: xjen0va2

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link 2 info on suicide gank nerf please. i checked the information portal.

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Originally by: copasetic sideways

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i, for one, am convinced ki an would make an entertaining after dinner speaker

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Originally by: NeoTheo

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over 5 million SP, you become wardecable.

however its achieved.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Guys, spread the word! Start your own threads!

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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As soon as you cost more moderation time than your subscription is worth they should delete your account....

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Originally by: NeoTheo

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over 5 million SP, you become wardecable.

however its achived.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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Originally by: Steve Hawkings

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/signed
this game now has too many losers just building stuff and not willing to fight for it.

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Originally by: Animenick

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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What, so you griefers can dec anyone who even crosses your path the wrong way? How are new people to the game supposed to better themselves? And the SP requirement for a war dec doesn't work. Even if you have 10mil SP, getting hunted by a 2003/2004 char is sure death. The fact is there are some serious jerks in this game who will go out of the way to make it so miserable that you would quit. Making it viable to dec someone in an NPC corp will just make it easier for the control freaks to make this game hell to some.

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Originally by: copasetic sideways

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Originally by: Steve Hawkings

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/signed
this game now has too many losers just building stuff and not willing to fight for it.

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uh-huh... and who ya gonna call when the "losers" have been hounded out of game?

(clue: answer isn't ghostbusters)

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.

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Originally by: Ruze

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I think the entire war-dec scenario needs overhauled. It shouldn't be used as a pay-to-grief program.

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Originally by: Neesa Corrinne

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Originally by: Ruze

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I think the entire war-dec scenario needs overhauled. It shouldn't be used as a pay-to-grief program.

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Given the fact that there are dozens of methods, for anyone with a grasp of tactics, to avoid a fight... griefing is hardly the word.

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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There are no rewards for being in NPC corp therefore there is no risc of wardec, looks ok

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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There are no rewards for being in NPC corp therefore there is no risc of wardec, looks ok

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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There are no rewards for being in NPC corp therefore there is no risc of wardec, looks ok

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Define "reward"…

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Ability to put a POS and use it, entire corp having agro on loot thief? Those are available when it's just you and your alts in corp, real corps have other benefits too

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Ability to put a POS and use it, entire corp having agro on loot thief? Those are available when it's just you and your alts in corp, real corps have other benefits too

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On the other hand, the tax rate and daily running costs for NPC corpers are zero. That would count as a reward.

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Originally by: Ruze

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Remove the invincibility of npc corps, and then you have to address the ease of running your own corp. I can corp hop all day. You don't have to be in an NPC corp to be invincible.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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Originally by: Ruze

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Remove the invincibility of npc corps, and then you have to address the ease of running your own corp. I can corp hop all day. You don't have to be in an NPC corp to be invincible.

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Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps.

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I can't really see how it would solve anything. You would still be undeccable by the people you annoy, and it's not particularly hard to stay away from the roaming gangs of the enemy factions.

They'd only be a threat if they randomly happened to stumble across you (while being chased by navy NPCs in a hostile system). They'd have very little reason to actively hunt you down they way they would if you were subject to a real wardec, mainly because you'd go on missioning and mining and never draw any attention to yourself.

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Originally by: Ruze

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If you really want to address macro issues, then make it simple. Players cannot use mining barges or exhumers in high-sec space. One good reason for this is because Empires USE those asteroids for their own navies and whatnot. It might be one thing to give someone a license to take out a vexor and mine, but to allow them in a full barge? I don't think an Empire would really allow that.

Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills.

Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system.

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Originally by: Ruze

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But is your intent to increase the RISK involved, or to make the target something you can wardec? I think the intent should be to increase the risk. If they get into the militia as an involuntary sign-up, they may start looking for an active corporation to move into. If not, they WILL have that inevitable risk of being caught in a system by a roving militia gang.

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Originally by: Tippia

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I don't stay in SAK to stay safe û I do it because I have no way of finding a corp I want to join that I also actually can join. Hopping around between fifty-eleven different corps only to discover that they're all run by megalomaniac numpties is not a solution. In the meantime, the longer I stay in SAK, the more people I get to know there and the less inclined I am to leave.

àthe question in my mind is just how it could be made easier û I really don't have any useful ideas.

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Originally by: Nur Vadenn

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As an NPC corporation member I am already penalized with sanctions. I can't use or get into a sizeable portion of game content unless I make my own corporation or join a player run one. I only get a scant few benefits for these sanctions. Really the system is slanted against me, but it is fine as it is.

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Originally by: Faife

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didn't the op emoragequit over bacon already?

cause i was sorta hoping he did.

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following:

1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions.
2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day.
3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp.

Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp. Starter corps should be crutches for new players, not a money-making safe haven for older players. If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Seriously nothing will be done about this till they address the War Dec situation.

Like it or not the Devs agree with common sense.
That the current War decs are just license to grief(yes grief its not about stealing loot its just about giving casual corp with 10 or so players a hard time ussually.)

What happens is some guys make a corp. They dont have good skills maybe one or 2 owns a battleship. They have fun, run missions together and occassionally try out low sec in cruisers or something they can afford to lose.

The a group of high skill players with HACs etc. war decs them. A couple of them get ambushed and losse there best ships, no one can earn any money to replace the ships because their junky ships get ganked quickly.

So what happens? Half the corp quits and the rest moves to an NPC corp and waits a year till they have skills to get recruited to a powerful corp.




Until you fix War Decs you have no choice but to live with the unfortunate side effect of super high skill players never leaving high sec.

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following:

1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions.
2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day.
3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp.

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Quote:

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Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp.

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Quote:

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If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp.

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Originally by: Ruze

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Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills.

Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system.

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Originally by: Nur Vadenn

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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It seems that the solution to this problem is fairly simple. You can easily create incentive for a person to leave an NPC corp by doing one of the following:

1. Completely bar members of NPC corps from doing L3/L4 missions.
2. Limit the number of L3/L4 missions a person in an NPC corp can do per day.
3. Significantly reduce the rewards for doing L3/L4 missions while in an NPC corp.

Basically you want to make it so that it's not worth it for a player to stay for any given period of time in an NPC corp. Starter corps should be crutches for new players, not a money-making safe haven for older players. If you implement any of the above options and also prevent players in NPC corps from fleeting with non-NPC corp players, you provide a safe starting corp for newer players while also making it fairly pointless for older players to remain in the said corp.

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You can read chapter and verse throughout the forums expounding the virtues and advantages of joining a player corporation right now. Usually these claims are made in as non-specific a way as possible. The cynic in me says these virtues remain ambiguous because they mostly are either exaggeration or don't exist at all. If player corporations are so wonderful why do they need a crutch like this? Oh, and what happens to all of us non-money making alts that get screwed over by your changes?

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Originally by: Aria Seniste

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Originally by: Ruze

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Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills.

Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system.

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This is an awful idea. The game is already limited enough to trial players; too limited, really.

A new player who wants to try FW will not be able to without upgrading to a paying account.

Now, they lose even more trainable skills, can't even talk to other players effectively, can't even explore lowsec?

...You do realize that the point of a trial is to make a good impression on a potential player, right? Fun fact: Making them feel unwanted and taking even more fun out of the game is not the way to do this.

Waaaah, I have to block some idiot macro spammer and so everyone should suffer. I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO RIGHT CLICK

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Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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Originally by: Nur Vadenn

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As an NPC corporation member I am already penalized with sanctions. I can't use or get into a sizeable portion of game content unless I make my own corporation or join a player run one. I only get a scant few benefits for these sanctions. Really the system is slanted against me, but it is fine as it is.

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Such as?
You can't have your own POS, and you can't war dec anyone. That's really it.

I have no idea why I'm in my own corp apart from that I plan to start recruiting at some point, and I thought I wanted to run my own small POS (that idea got old really quick.)

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• Can't own/operate POS


• Can't fully operate capital ships (except jump freighters)


• Gimped theft agro mechanics. Steal from me and the rest of Vizam does not get kill rights


• Can't declare war on corporations and alliances


• No corporation assets or shared access

• I have been/am currently in an NPC corporation for ôxö amount of time I therefore MUST BE a scammer/spy/scout/alt/macro.


• As a presumed scammer/spy/scout/alt/macro I will be kill on sight to everyone everywhere no matter what.


• I should not be extended any curtisy common or otherwise because I am obviously a scammer/spy/scout/alt/macro.

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Seriously nothing will be done about this till they address the War Dec situation.

Like it or not the Devs agree with common sense.
That the current War decs are just license to grief(yes grief its not about stealing loot its just about giving casual corp with 10 or so players a hard time ussually.)

What happens is some guys make a corp. They dont have good skills maybe one or 2 owns a battleship. They have fun, run missions together and occassionally try out low sec in cruisers or something they can afford to lose.

The a group of high skill players with HACs etc. war decs them. A couple of them get ambushed and losse there best ships, no one can earn any money to replace the ships because their junky ships get ganked quickly.

So what happens? Half the corp quits and the rest moves to an NPC corp and waits a year till they have skills to get recruited to a powerful corp.




Until you fix War Decs you have no choice but to live with the unfortunate side effect of super high skill players never leaving high sec.

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A quick-fix to this problem might be to allow a dec'd corp to pay CONCORD to cancel the war. Pricing could be based on how many people are in the corp trying to pay off CONCORD, and it would be a sliding scale so a fifty man corp buying off CONCORD would pay MORE than ten times what a five man corp would pay.

This idea has some flaws but like I said, quick fix. CCP would just have to make sure they told people that this was a temporary solution until they figure out something better.

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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Regardless of whether they pay for their subscriptions or not, there's no reason a person can't open their own 1-man player corp to do things. Currently the only reason people don't do so is because the NPC corp provides almost absolute safety.

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Without limiting the activities NPC corp members can participate in, there's really no way to limit the potential for abuse without also hurting the newer players that may rely on that safety.

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Again, if the changes I stated were implemented, it would obviously be "worth it" for people to leave those NPC corps and at very least form their own corp if they don't like others...

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What's the big difference between doing things alone in a 1-man corp and doing things alone with an NPC corp?

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I don't see why a person needs to remain in an NPC corp while he builds outside connections.

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Rarely do I see them interact with people outside of the NPC corp with the exception of chatting unless they're an alt.

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Originally by: Tippia

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I don't stay in SAK to stay safe û I do it because I have no way of finding a corp I want to join that I also actually can join. Hopping around between fifty-eleven different corps only to discover that they're all run by megalomaniac numpties is not a solution. In the meantime, the longer I stay in SAK, the more people I get to know there and the less inclined I am to leave.

àthe question in my mind is just how it could be made easier û I really don't have any useful ideas.

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Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 06/08/2008 14:37:35
I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps.

I would add to this idea by saying that even if you don't have 5 million SPs but have been in-game for a certain time (maybe the time it takes to train up a friggin Hulk and turn on your macro program) you also get moved into a militia.

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Originally by: Navigator

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Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator

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Originally by: Ki An

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Guys, spread the word! Start your own threads!

Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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Originally by: Kruntologist

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Why not make your own corp with the people you've gotten to know in SAK? If you don't run your corp like a 'megalomaniac numpty' then it should be a raving success.

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You can also join public channels of prospective corps and chat with them for abit before joining to see if they're closer to your desires in a corp.

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Why don't you simply remove new folks from the starter corps after 15 days trial?

Move them to other NPC corps that have lets say 60%tax on all income.

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Or put them in NPC corps and make those NPC corps at war with their direct faction rivals.

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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Edited by: Minami Sayuri on 06/08/2008 16:47:24

Originally by: Dionisius

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Why don't you simply remove new folks from the starter corps after 15 days trial?

Move them to other NPC corps that have lets say 60%tax on all income.

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Legitimate beginners would be severely hampered by such a system along with the others.

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Or put them in NPC corps and make those NPC corps at war with their direct faction rivals.

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This is factional warfare and it's optional for a reason. There's far too much risk for griefing to force people into this...

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Originally by: Tippia

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Not if I lead it û that's for sure. I'd far rather join than lead.

Anyway, attempts have been made, but gaining critical mass and getting the fun ones to join is a fairly large hurdle. Also, the pessimist in me looks at previous attemps and how poorly they fared. That said, I actually agree: that is the best solution, but also the one with the least chance of success. If (when?) it crumbles, I'll be back in an NPC corp and the problem hasn't gone away.

What needs to be solved is the problem of being able to quickly and easily find interesting and worth-while corps.

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The forums is another way, but everyone's nuts around here (never mind the fact that those are usually the kind of people I've ended up joining in other MMOs)!

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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While I'm sure there are plenty of legit NPC corp players, I don't think that you can deny that the VAST majority of them are alts/spies/scouts/farmers/etc.

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Nobody's trying to force you to be in a corp that you don't want to be in. The issue at hand is trying to figure out how to make this game fair and sensible for the general populace. Would you then be opposed to players being allowed to war-dec NPC corporations?

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If you have a better way to address the situation at hand, then I would love to hear it, but so long as a person in an NPC corp can do everything a person in a player corp can and with less risk, I don't see a fix to the problem.

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Legitimate begginers have plenty of time to create their own corp and start doingt their own thing. it isn't that difficult and in high sec its a cake walk.

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Or put them in NPC corps and make those NPC corps at war with their direct faction rivals.

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This is factional warfare and it's optional for a reason. There's far too much risk for griefing to force people into this...

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Originally by: Kruntologist

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If it was easy then EVERYONE would do it. However, I often find that NPC corps are filled with "too many indians, not enough chiefs" syndrome (ie too many followers, too few leaders).

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I'm honestly not trying to be harsh but I do think you're expecting way too much out of CCP here.

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Originally by: Tippia

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I don't mind making an effort to hunt down a corp, but right now, there's so little to go on even if I do make that effort. Also, you alude to a different, but somewhat related, problem: right now, it's easier to put up a recruitment post and hope someone wants to recruit you (an almost completely passive process) than it is to be proactive about it and find the corp yourself.

I do think that this could be improved.

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Explain to me the problem with people being in NPC corps... You can't war dec them and they can't war dec you, they can't fight you and you can't fight them except in low sec (barring suicide ganking) it seems balanced so what's the issue?

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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You can't war dec them and they can't war dec you, they can't fight you and you can't fight them except in low sec (barring suicide ganking) it seems balanced so what's the issue?

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Originally by: Neesa Corrinne

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Originally by: NeoTheo

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over 5 million SP, you become wardecable.

however its achieved.

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I endorse this message.

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Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Legitimate begginers have plenty of time to create their own corp and start doingt their own thing. it isn't that difficult and in high sec its a cake walk.

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*Legitimate* beginners have enough to spend their very limited ISK on besides the 1m Corp creation cost. When was the last time you created and played a 100% untwinked alt?

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Originally by: Minami Sayuri

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Originally by: Dionisius

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Or put them in NPC corps and make those NPC corps at war with their direct faction rivals.

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This is factional warfare and it's optional for a reason. There's far too much risk for griefing to force people into this...

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Originally by: Tippia

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Personal wardecs? Hmmmà might be a solution. Throw in a change in the bounty system and attach it to that, and I think there might be some merit to that idea.

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Originally by: ccp navigator

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Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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People have different ways of playing the game, for some people it is NOT a PVP-centric game. For plenty of others it is. Why do you NEED to be able to war dec an NPC corp filled with those who either don't know how are don't care to PVP? There are plenty of player corps which should provide more of an interesting challenge for a war...

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Originally by: Ruze

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First, I want to say that I've never looked at the macrominer reasoning as anything more than an excuse.

But, there's also another reason. See, EvE is a PvP-centric game. When you then create an area centered on PvE and ONLY PvE, you are taking away the PvP side.

What's wrong with that, you say? Well, let's put it this way. Imagine if every game on the market was the same. In each one, it allowed open PvP anywhere, with PKers and griefers running rampant. Then, imagine you found ONE game on the entire market, JUST ONE, that allowed players to PvE to their hearts content.

That's what EvE is, but the opposite. There are hundreds of games out there with loads of NPC mission running and killing goblins and nuking bad guys all you want. But there's only EvE for those who want a full and open PvP world. It's the ONLY game on the market that is well-designed, includes a great backstory, and is built on a PvP base.

The more it changes, the less appeal it has for those who are here because of that. And we have nowhere else to go. You can get PvE in hundreds of MMO's, from Tabula Rasa to World of Warcraft. But none of them include the bitterness and glory of EvE's PvP world.

So while many of you see this as a 'why can't I' IN THIS GAME ONLY, many of 'us' are looking at having no place left for our style of play. There's nowhere to go after EvE. There is no other product to fit the bill, that doesn't fall into the usless kill-die-respawn of Counter Strike or Battlefield.

EvE is about PvP. The more that changes, the less reason many of us have to play. Good for you though, right? As long as you have your high-sec, and are not involved in any way in the real MEANING and DESIGN of EvE, your happy, no? So while you feel so many players are disrespecting your choice of game to play, realize that your not just taking this game from us. We have nothing to go to.

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Explain to me the problem with people being in NPC corps... You can't war dec them and they can't war dec you, they can't fight you and you can't fight them except in low sec (barring suicide ganking) it seems balanced so what's the issue?

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The problem is that they live in a protected bubble with regards to everything that can actually hurt them. However, they still use the market, and as such can manipulate the game for others. Not knowingly manipulate of course, but still.

Also, it is common practise for 0.0 alliances to keep noob corp freighter pilots. That way they can move about in Empire virtually risk free. There is no way to hit them (and thereby the infrastructure of your enemy) except suicide ganks. Now that's getting nerfed.

There is also the fairness argument, but there's no need to get into that.

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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I don't see a fairness issue.

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Besides not being able to blow someone up that's talking smack unless they come to low sec...and really aren't we a bit more adult that that?

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Using 'neutral' shipping for supply is pretty unavoidable...

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Now in order to use said materials they have to enter low sec at some point...and then they're fair game.

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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I think far more people want to war dec NPC corps as a griefing mechanism to find low risk PVP targets than any other possible reason.

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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The 'gain' to the game by allowing just doesn't seem to outweigh the downside...

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Originally by: Le Skunk

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Originally by: ccp navigator

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Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator

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Oh really? Then where the hell were you in sucide gank whine threads 2-4746?

You couldnt make this up.

SKUNK

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Originally by: Le Skunk

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Originally by: ccp navigator

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Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator

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Oh really? Then where the hell were you in sucide gank whine threads 2-4746?

You couldnt make this up.

SKUNK

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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I don't see a fairness issue.

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You don't? You think it's fair that one particular play style is both easier and more profitable than another, supposedly equally valid, play style? I don't think that's fair. Either both should be equally easy (pre-suicide gank nerf) or the harder one should pay significantly more. After this nerf, it won't.

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Besides not being able to blow someone up that's talking smack unless they come to low sec...and really aren't we a bit more adult that that?

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Completely beside the point. If someone upsets me in local, who are you to say that I should not be able to have my revenge? Besides, this game used to be about facing the consequences for your actions. That particular character of the game has faced multiple nerfs these last years.

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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Using 'neutral' shipping for supply is pretty unavoidable...

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As the system is now, yes. However, with a revised system, it wouldn't be unavoidable.

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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I think far more people want to war dec NPC corps as a griefing mechanism to find low risk PVP targets than any other possible reason.

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That's a pretty wild assumption. Care to present any proof what-so-ever, or should we just take this comment for what it is - complete BS?

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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The 'gain' to the game by allowing just doesn't seem to outweigh the downside...

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It completely outweighs, outruns and annihilates the downside. That's because there really isn't any downside. Unless you count making risk-adverse people actually partake in the 'non-consentual' part of the non-consentual PvP game as a downside.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yeah, NPC corps need to be reworked. In line with this new concept of risk/reward by which CCP are basing the nerf to suicide ganks, NPC corps need to have more risk. You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever. Especially now that suicide ganks are getting nerfed. This needs to be fixed, CCP.

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Originally by: Napro

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What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too?

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Originally by: Napro

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What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too?

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Napro

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What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too?

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Because said people are hurting me and other players who are not in high-sec noobcorps by printing ISK.

Hello, competitive MMO.

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Originally by: Ruze

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Originally by: Napro

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What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too?

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The problem is that, from the beginning, EVERYONE has been subjective to PvP in some shape, form or fashion. That is what makes this game so great for many. But with each passing change, we lose OUR game (the PvP-centered, every man for themselves, come-with-it-all or leave-with-nothing game), and you gain yours.

My biggest complaint is that those who are in high-sec are forgetting that the market is PvP, too. And while Bill goes into low-sec and risks himself every day, Jim sits in high-sec running multiple missions, and can sell the loot and his LP rewards, without ever being under direct risk of losing out.

You can't exist in EvE without dealing with other players. When you buy a ship, another player produced it. When you buy a module, it was either made or looted by another player. Every step you take, you are participating in PvP. But your saying you want the one side, without the risk of the other?

Meanwhile, other players actually want MORE! They want more missions, with better payouts. They want more factory slots, and more asteroids. They want everything the rest of the game requires you to fight and die for, but they want it without the fighting and dying part.

There is a serious imbalance between the PvP and PvE side of this game. If the only loot you could get from the PvE side was meta 1 or 2, and unnamed modules? If the isk you gained from doing missions in high-sec was severely limited? If you could only run T1 BPO's and were limited to the number of factories you could run in high-sec? And if you weren't allowed to use Exhumers ... or maybe even barges?

Then there would be no problem, because you wouldn't be AS imbalanced as before. If you want the good stuff, you NEED to go to low-sec and 0.0 to get it. Plain and simple. And if you want complete security and safety, you need to make a hefty sacrifice of how much of the game you are going to enjoy.

If your not willing to participate, you don't *deserve* anything. That's my opinion, anyhow.

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Originally by: Seliane Wildstar

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Because you choose not to be in a NPC corp and run mission, you think those that are should be forced to change thier gameplay to accomadate you? As you all are so fond of saying, EVE isn't fair, deal with it.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Originally by: Le Skunk

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Originally by: ccp navigator

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Please note that creating multiple duplicate threads on the same subject is considered spamming and may result in a warning or ban. Navigator

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Oh really? Then where the hell were you in sucide gank whine threads 2-4746?

You couldnt make this up.

SKUNK

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Or the hundreds of nanowhine threads.

Pathetic CCP.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Guys, spread the word! Start your own threads!

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Originally by: Mire Stoude

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As someone who supports the recent changes, I also support this. Players shouldn't be able to do certain things if they are in a NPC corp (FW would be an exception). They shouldn't be able to undock in an exhumer/barge or run level 4 missions.

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Originally by: Animenick

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What, so you griefers can dec anyone who even crosses your path the wrong way? How are new people to the game supposed to better themselves? And the SP requirement for a war dec doesn't work. Even if you have 10mil SP, getting hunted by a 2003/2004 char is sure death. The fact is there are some serious jerks in this game who will go out of the way to make it so miserable that you would quit. Making it viable to dec someone in an NPC corp will just make it easier for the control freaks to make this game hell to some.

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Originally by: Webster Carr

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People have different ways of playing the game, for some people it is NOT a PVP-centric game.

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Originally by: Kalintos Tyl

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i killed 2004 chars with 5mln sp whine more

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Originally by: Ki An

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You can sit in an NPC corp your entire EvE life running lvl 4 missions without any risk what-so-ever.

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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What you're asking for is to make Eve a PvP mandatory game

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Originally by: Ruze

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Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE!

Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec.

Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit.

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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What you're asking for is to make Eve a PvP mandatory game

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Not quite true, we'd like to keep it that way, not make it that way, because that's what it's always been.

Personally I'd move any character older than 3 months old into the militia, but I know it would never happen, the newer, younger, masses wouldn't stand for it. Neither would the newer devs who never played "old eve" and really don't understand what this game used to be.

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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When was it that you were required to be available for PvP in Eve (i.e. required to join a player corporation or some other entity that could become a war target)?

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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If they change the mechanics to basically say "tough, if you want to play Eve you have to be a target"

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Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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When was it that you were required to be available for PvP in Eve (i.e. required to join a player corporation or some other entity that could become a war target)?

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Never, but that's not the point. At no time in the development of Eve have people been safe from PvP in High Sec. They don't have to be in a deccable corp.

Unconsensual PvP is one of the defining trademarks of Eve. If you either don't like it OR you can't learn to accept it (and I use the term "you" as a reference to everyone), then congratulations, you're the person that the term "gb2 WoW" was invented for.

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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Originally by: Dirk Magnum

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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When was it that you were required to be available for PvP in Eve (i.e. required to join a player corporation or some other entity that could become a war target)?

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It doesn't look to me like this will make them 100% safe either. However, it does look like it will make suiciding far less economically viable than it is, and not something you can do as a career, which it was never (as far as I know) intended to be. The mechanic in place from the git-go has been if you are a criminal you fairly quickly get pushed out of high-sec. They're just fixing it so that happens as intended, and it isn't so quick and easy to get back in once you're out.

Yes, there has always been unconsensual PvP in high sec in EvE, but nothing like it has been the last year. When I first started playing it was rare to see a "Concorde Convention" at a gate because someone just suicided there. Now, I can't go three jumps in any direction without seeing one. It needed addressing. I'm glad they did.

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Never, but that's not the point. At no time in the development of Eve have people been safe from PvP in High Sec. They don't have to be in a deccable corp.

Unconsensual PvP is one of the defining trademarks of Eve. If you either don't like it OR you can't learn to accept it (and I use the term "you" as a reference to everyone), then congratulations, you're the person that the term "gb2 WoW" was invented for.

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Originally by: Lucy'Lastic

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People earning lots of risk free Isk is bad because they will always have more Isk than me.

I find missions and mining boring. Why should someone who doesn't find them boring have more Isk than me?

I live in a backwater part of 0.0 and am in an Alliance and I can't make as much Isk as people who are in NPC corps. This is not fair.

Nerf people making risk free Isk because it ruins my game and isn't fair on me.

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Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale

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What I see is that people want to gank and kill only. EVE has a PVP feature yes, but its no 100% PVP (TAN TAAN!).

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Originally by: Ruze

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PvP is incorrectly associated to many newcomers as nothing but griefers and gankers. This is NOT the founding principle of EvE.

Player vs. player, be it combat, money or influence, IS the founding principle of EvE. Being completely, utterly immune to any of these should require significant losses to compensate.

EvE is about competition and survival. It's as much a bias to lump every pvper into a class of twelve-year-old, e-peen waving, sadistic wannabe killer tough-guys, as it is to lump every carebear into the class of 40-year-old, crying, can't leave their mothers house, cowardly, insecure LARPers.

So, put your groupism or whatever you want to call it aside for the sake of this argument.

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Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale

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I play EVE for fun and socialization and I need ISK to both explore and enjoy all its features, I don't compete with anyone nor the survival issue applies to my gaming style. This is proof that EVE's gameplay is much more dynamic then people think.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Edited by: Tippia on 07/08/2008 18:06:28

Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale

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What I see is that people want to gank and kill only. EVE has a PVP feature yes, but its no 100% PVP (TAN TAAN!).

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Actually, it is 100% PvP

Do you use the market? If so, you're competing with other players for best price û PvP.

Do you run missions? If so, you're competing with other players for the loot and salvage û PvP.

Do you mine? If so, you're competing with other players for the best spots and the juiciest 'roids û PvP.

Do you produce stuff? If so, you're competing with other players for the production slots and/or trying to be more efficient than they are û PvP. You also need to sell the stuff you produce, leading back to market-PvP.

Everything in ≡v≡ involves competition with other players. You're always PvP:ing.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Guys, spread the word! Start your own threads!

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Quote:

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How do you make that ISK?

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Quote:

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Where do you get the equipment you use to explore

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Quote:

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What features are you enjoying?

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Originally by: Ruze

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Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE!

Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec.

Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit.

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Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale

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I meant PVP physical war affairs, where both your ship and capsule pops.

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Quote:

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EVE works even if you are playing alone in the server. That's why its not 100% PVP.

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Originally by: Joey Meow

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Originally by: Ruze

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Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE!

Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec.

Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit.

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Why are you playing provocateur? I mean, you know changes like these could not be, and would not be accepted by the greater EVE community, simply because it will take all the fun out of EVE for them and they will vote with their wallets and leave, thus leaving EVE back at 14-20k active subscribers.

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Quote:

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By that token, CounterStrike isn't a PvP game either û it works if you're alone on the server too

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Quote:

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The problem is that the instant you add other players, the game immediately becomes a competition over the resources (soft competition as it may be if there's only two of you in the whole galaxy). Some parts of ≡v≡ works without other players û most do not. Without those elements, you're not really playing ≡v≡ û you need to add players to get the full game. The moment you add other players, you add PvP.

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Quote:

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àin other words, you get it by beating other players to the punch. PvP.

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Quote:

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Those aren't really features of the game û those are just your own goals.

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Quote:

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àand guess what, you'll need to compete with other players for them. More PvP.

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Originally by: Kage Psychodin

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Many new players will never if NPC corps change to the point of what people are saying. YES, they need to be able to build up their own little fleet of ships from frigs to battleships safely. because we all already have that and more.

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Originally by: Ruze

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Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE!

Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec.

Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale

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My point is that YOU may choose not to interfere with a player's life in the game in order to play it or enjoy it.

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àand my point is that you may not choose whether or not other players will interfere with your life in the game. You have no control over what other players may try to do to you. You are always subject to PvP situations.

Quote:

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EVE is playable without players. You can ascend in it without needing to trade or pop anyone.

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And again, following this logic means that there are no PvP games at all û everything can be played without other players. You're reducing the argument to "≡v≡ isn't 100% PvP because in the end, PvP doesn't actually exist."

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Originally by: Ruze

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PvP is incorrectly associated to many newcomers as nothing but griefers and gankers. This is NOT the founding principle of EvE.

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Originally by: Durzel

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The problem is players in EvE don't PvP on fair terms for the most part. When faced with the choice between flying solo in low-sec, and flying in a group, or camping a gate - which is the more desirable option? Which presents the least amount of risk to the pirate? Pirates don't want to lose their ships any more than their targets do - so people will always gravitate towards scenarios that minimise their risk and maximise their reward. Currently that means gatecamps, copy-and-paste nano fits, blobbing, and so on.

I used to play a game called Planetarion - a game that was designed to be an all-vs-all, every man for himself game. Even though there weren't actual corps or alliances to speak of, unofficial alliances came into effect to ensure that the status quo of the most powerful players remained in effect. Said alliances formed "no attack" pacts with other groups of people until eventually the dominant unofficial alliance was unassailable, with nearly a hundred players all flying under one banner. Anyone who attacked a member got obliterated, and every member lived with almost total immunity from attack simply because no non-alliance member dared to attack someone known to be in said alliance, or friend of said alliance, or whatever.

My point is - so far as Eve is concerned - is that most pirates are not dissimilar from carebears, although they would never be prepared to admit it. They want to fly about with the least amount of risk to their uber ships & implant clones. They will choose the path of least resistance and maximum safety simply because it is human nature to do so.

Your average players experience of PvP in Eve therefore (i.e. not the epic 0.0 alliance warfare) is players looking to kill others by means that limit their risk whilst guaranteeing almost certain victory. Blobbing, gatecamping, Loftying (until recently), nano'ing, canflipping - all examples of PvP where the fight isn't "fair" but instead designed to ensure that the protagonist wins with little/no risk to themselves. Even wardecs where one PvP-centric corp wages war on a corp they already know to be no match for them is another example of PvP "carebearism".

Food for thought maybe?

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Originally by: Durzel

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Your average players experience of PvP in Eve therefore (i.e. not the epic 0.0 alliance warfare) is players looking to kill others by means that limit their risk whilst guaranteeing almost certain victory. Blobbing, gatecamping, Loftying (until recently), nano'ing, canflipping - all examples of PvP where the fight isn't "fair" but instead designed to ensure that the protagonist wins with little/no risk to themselves. Even wardecs where one PvP-centric corp wages war on a corp they already know to be no match for them is another example of PvP "carebearism".

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'd support this. If hi-sec is to be the kindegarten of EvE, then so be it. People should be limited to kindegarten earnings.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 20:22:11

Originally by: Malcanis

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I'd support this. If hi-sec is to be the kindegarten of EvE, then so be it. People should be limited to kindegarten earnings.

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This.

Anyway, about the whole "PvP is unfair, bah" discussion, it's utterly pointless. Industry, trading, preety much damn everything pits you against other players, and it's a form of PvP as well.

Selling the loots/etc out of your L4s is, too. It's also riskless and highly profitable, which is what makes it broken. Minimizing risk (while maximizing profits) is what all smart players will do in all situations (also, the reason why excessive blobbing is generally stupid for the pirate inolved - you only want as many people as to kill the target (and possible support) without losses, as you have a set amount of loot to split, btw). Allowing very high profits/hour at next to 0 risk is definitely a bad thing.

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Originally by: McDonALTs

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 20:22:11

Originally by: Malcanis

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I'd support this. If hi-sec is to be the kindegarten of EvE, then so be it. People should be limited to kindegarten earnings.

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This.

Anyway, about the whole "PvP is unfair, bah" discussion, it's utterly pointless. Industry, trading, preety much damn everything pits you against other players, and it's a form of PvP as well.

Selling the loots/etc out of your L4s is, too. It's also riskless and highly profitable, which is what makes it broken. Minimizing risk (while maximizing profits) is what all smart players will do in all situations (also, the reason why excessive blobbing is generally stupid for the pirate inolved - you only want as many people as to kill the target (and possible support) without losses, as you have a set amount of loot to split, btw). Allowing very high profits/hour at next to 0 risk is definitely a bad thing.

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Highsec is already Kindergarden earnings.

Missions make 25mil/hour in t2 fit. Miners make 10-15mil/hour.

0.0 Corps that mine moons make billions a month. Thats the whole point of 0.0 right? Thats why people fight POS wars, just so they can pickup another 10billion isk/month worth of reactions from a rare moon.

Risk/reward is in 0.0 already, thats why you get alliances with dozens of titans and 400 capitals ploghing though. The only thing CCP need to do is boost lowsec.

High Sec = Kindergarden
Low sec = Lol
0.0 = Corporate Businessman Earnings.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: McDonALTs

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 20:22:11

Originally by: Malcanis

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I'd support this. If hi-sec is to be the kindegarten of EvE, then so be it. People should be limited to kindegarten earnings.

---

This.

Anyway, about the whole "PvP is unfair, bah" discussion, it's utterly pointless. Industry, trading, preety much damn everything pits you against other players, and it's a form of PvP as well.

Selling the loots/etc out of your L4s is, too. It's also riskless and highly profitable, which is what makes it broken. Minimizing risk (while maximizing profits) is what all smart players will do in all situations (also, the reason why excessive blobbing is generally stupid for the pirate inolved - you only want as many people as to kill the target (and possible support) without losses, as you have a set amount of loot to split, btw). Allowing very high profits/hour at next to 0 risk is definitely a bad thing.

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Highsec is already Kindergarden earnings.

Missions make 25mil/hour in t2 fit. Miners make 10-15mil/hour.

0.0 Corps that mine moons make billions a month. Thats the whole point of 0.0 right? Thats why people fight POS wars, just so they can pickup another 10billion isk/month worth of reactions from a rare moon.

Risk/reward is in 0.0 already, thats why you get alliances with dozens of titans and 400 capitals ploghing though. The only thing CCP need to do is boost lowsec.

High Sec = Kindergarden
Low sec = Lol
0.0 = Corporate Businessman Earnings.

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If I didn't already know you were a troll, this post would prove it. One single hi-sec L4 agent can serve more players than there are Dys/Prom moons in existence. And each and every one of those players can make as much as that moon provides. No player sov system has a resource remotely equalling the value of such an agent.

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Originally by: Tchell Dahhn

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I'll be honest, I didn't read all of the suggestions, but here's mine:

There are a limited number of NPC Corporations out there, so how about having them limit the number of Members who can run Missions on behalf of that Corporation or Group?

That way, if there was some type of 'queue' where NPC Corp Members had to wait in line to run Missions they wanted, or else, jump into a Player Corp to do the same thing instantly, they would likely jump to a Player Corp.

(I don't run Missions, and I never will, so if I'm missing some key information here, let me know.)

Another idea I had was to have a mandatory 'kick out' period, after which, an NPC Corporation would say, "you're on your own - fly safe!" and eject the Player into a random "Second Tier" NPC Corporation (wait for it) which could be Wardecced. Limit the number of people in said Corp to 100, let's say, and voila. You have a rush of Second Tier NPC Players rushing to get into a better protected Player Corporation.

Both ideas need work, but hey, that's what you get from me on the spur of the moment.

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Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale

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I can play this Massively Multiplayer Game without interacting with anyone else ever.

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