Originally by: Vikarion

---

The fact is that hi-sec is rapidly becoming more profitable AND more safe than any other area.

---

Originally by: J Kunjeh

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

The fact is that hi-sec is rapidly becoming more profitable AND more safe than any other area.

---

Then spend all of your time in null-sec...easy.

---

Originally by: Siberys

---

Great, highsec is the easiest place to live. Great, you can't blow the crap out of someone easily. You'll live. You just need to accept change.

---

Originally by: Granmethedon III

---

You can say "adapt or die" as much as you want, as far as I'm concerned, this game is rapidly becoming broken, and turning into everything I hate about MMOs. "Adapt" from my point of view is rapidly becoming "look for a new game".

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Edited by: Vikarion on 07/08/2008 22:49:16
To echo some other posters, I'd like to ask why CCP won't post their "New and Improved" vision of Eve on a devblog sometime SOON. And not the (tm) kind of soon, either.

I'd like to know whether to continue with what I'm doing, move to low-sec/0.0, or just get the hell out of the game altogether.

And, BTW, sorry for making another whine post. I just feel kind of betrayed.

---

Originally by: Dante024781

---

Originally by: Granmethedon III

---

You can say "adapt or die" as much as you want, as far as I'm concerned, this game is rapidly becoming broken, and turning into everything I hate about MMOs. "Adapt" from my point of view is rapidly becoming "look for a new game".

---

I don't want your stuff.

---

Originally by: Danton Marcellus

---

Put all your stuff in an industrial and set a course through all of high-sec post patch and see, I do mean all of it, convert it all to high valuables, I want to see exactly how safe you are.

---

Originally by: Danton Marcellus

---

Put all your stuff in an industrial and set a course through all of high-sec post patch and see, I do mean all of it, convert it all to high valuables, I want to see exactly how safe you are.

---

Originally by: J Kunjeh

---

Oh boy, another one...

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

I don't want World of Warcraft in space. I don't want to mine in safety. I don't want Empire space to be safe, or my level 4 salvage to be protected, or my corporation to be safe from war-decs. I want Eve to be as they promised it would be - dangerous everywhere.

---

Originally by: Joss Sparq

---

While reading the first post I started to hear a high pitched noise. At first I was afraid I was developing a sudden case of synaesthesia.

What I was actually hearing was the whine ...

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

No insurance + higher sec status penalties + no real warfare + faster Concord response times is NOT "fine tuning" - it's changing the nature of hi-sec space to be much, much harder to inflict violence in.

Can you still kill someone? Yes. If you get your buddies together and only do it once a month and forget about trying to ransom or wardec.

Wow. How fun.

---

Quote:

---

often wars started without reason, simply to get random victims to gank and grief

---

Originally by: Xevan Templar

---

Edited by: Xevan Templar on 08/08/2008 00:23:17
Dude, did you actualy read it yourself.

Quote:

---

often wars started without reason, simply to get random victims to gank and grief

---

It's not as how CCP intended wardecs, and since they are the one adding it to the system, they can finetune it to what is was ment for. Clearly, get a grip

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

But now I see all of the things I loved as a carebear being taken away, all of the danger, all of the thrill, all of the interesting things...all because people are too downright stupid to protect themselves and their possessions in-game.They act like they are entitled to what they want.

---

Originally by: CCP Garthagk

---

While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Last night I was pirating in low-sec, and came across a trial player. Boom. I snagged him, blew him up, and podded him. Then, to add insult to injury, I convo'd him, and talked to him about the game.

Guess what? He just signed up today.

Now THAT is the kind of person we need in Eve.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Joss Sparq

---

While reading the first post I started to hear a high pitched noise. At first I was afraid I was developing a sudden case of synaesthesia.

What I was actually hearing was the whine ...

---

Sure, if you call a reasoned and non-inflammatory protest of the castration of your favorite game a whine, then sure. It's a whine.

Your point?

---

Originally by: Acrel

---

War Decs where being misused.. People where either A making a 1-2 man corp and war decing mostly Indy/Starter corps just for a easy gank.. Or larger corps where targeting ALOT smaller corps for easy ganks.

---

Originally by: Lightbriner

---

You liked that Eve was hard, but feel that the changes to the war dec system "break" your style of play?
What is hard about bringing a Megathron to a Covetor fight? Under their proposed system, picking a fight might actually result in a fight, zomg!

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

Vikarion i wholeheartedly agree with you..

especially on the war dec changes.. why would we need bloody "victory conditions"

I, You, WE as war declarers set our OWN "victory conditions" i decide when i have won, you decide when you have won. it is not up to some random mechanic to decide
"oh noes teh enemeh haz lost 11 ships and th war haz bean on fur 4 dayz - End teh war"

this isnt an "adapt or die" these changes arent like that, they are simply detracting from the experience of eve.. and very quickly for me, and others "adapt or die" is unfortunately turning into "find another game AND quit"

Hopefully CCP realise that the greates tthing about eve is the we, the players feel ever so slightly in control of our own ingame actions. take that element of self imposed control away, and what is eve?

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

It is fun. Check out my articles in Eve Tribune for some advice (the Griefer ones)

Eve Tribune

---

Quote:

---

I'm actually looking forward to seeing how they're going to implement these victory conditions; the challenge isn't trivial. ISK damage inflicted, corp roster loss, number of ships destroyed, production reduced or eliminated? Could be quite interesting.

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

mmhm, unfortunately so..

ive been a full on ccp fanboi for 3 years, been happy with rebalances/nerfs/changes etc

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

I love how the people who think they are the serious players, the hardcore pvpers that the game was made for.... when they don't get what they want?

They throw a tantrum like a 3 year old. Oh my god DaddyCCP! You won't let me grief the people I want, so I'm going to grief everyone! Waaaaaah I'm gonna be a **** and drive people away from the game so that you have to make even harsher rules against griefing! And Ill cry even more when you do that!

Seriously. You guys are freaking idiots. Acting like a bunch of spoiled brats doesn't convince anyone that you just want freedom. You clearly just want to be ****s.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49
CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.

Edit: And theres a subtle different being being aggressive or being a ****, and whining like a teenage girl who got dumped on prom night.

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

personally.. i believe that suicide ganking was not a "totally painless exercise"

for example.. it isnt EVERY DAY that some random noob comes to your gate afk with a badger full to the brim with 500m.

from my point of view, suicide ganking required a lot of patience, you have to actually BE AT YOUR COMPUTER to make isk.. unlike the r3tarded miners and afk haulers, you have to make very fast decisions on whether its worth it, you need a trustworthy partnet to gather your loot..

then you've got 15 minutes in the station that you just have to sit and wait..

AND OF COURSE DONT FORGET KILLRIGHTS

why the shit have you all forgotten that these clueless afk tards are not just victims, they can EASILY locate the ganker, and finish them off at a convenient time for them.

i know killrights have been a big enough pain in the arse to deter me from ganking a few targets..

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49
CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.

15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.

Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.

Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

personally.. i believe that suicide ganking was not a "totally painless exercise"

for example.. it isnt EVERY DAY that some random noob comes to your gate afk with a badger full to the brim with 500m.

from my point of view, suicide ganking required a lot of patience, you have to actually BE AT YOUR COMPUTER to make isk.. unlike the r3tarded miners and afk haulers, you have to make very fast decisions on whether its worth it, you need a trustworthy partnet to gather your loot..

then you've got 15 minutes in the station that you just have to sit and wait..

AND OF COURSE DONT FORGET KILLRIGHTS

why the shit have you all forgotten that these clueless afk tards are not just victims, they can EASILY locate the ganker, and finish them off at a convenient time for them.

i know killrights have been a big enough pain in the arse to deter me from ganking a few targets..

---

All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.

15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.

Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.
Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.

15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.

Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.

Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!

---

Again, the problem isn't that CCP is adding the insurance penalty. That was fine, or the sec status penalties were fine. The problem is that they are consistently eroding the ability of players to engage in non-consensual PvP.

They are planning to nerf wars. They are over-nerfing suicide ganks. They are writing articles on the dubious legality of can-flipping and ninja-salvaging.

It was only a couple of months ago that they were writing about suicide ganking.

Anyone can see where this trend is going.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.

15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.

Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.

Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!

---

Again, the problem isn't that CCP is adding the insurance penalty. That was fine, or the sec status penalties were fine. The problem is that they are consistently eroding the ability of players to engage in non-consensual PvP.

They are planning to nerf wars. They are over-nerfing suicide ganks. They are writing articles on the dubious legality of can-flipping and ninja-salvaging.

It was only a couple of months ago that they were writing about suicide ganking.

Anyone can see where this trend is going.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

Edited by: Mu Yaling on 08/08/2008 04:44:42

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49
CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.

Edit: And theres a subtle different being being aggressive or being a ****, and whining like a teenage girl who got dumped on prom night.

---

and to you, im not whining, i simply have better ideas than you, that dont end up with this Pvp game turning into Wowinspace.. this has always been "our game" not yours... i'll get you a list of 100+ mmo's that you can safely make money and upgrade your ***** jewelry untill you get bored.. but for us.. this is a haven of adrenaline fueled encounters, logistcal problemsolving, intelligent trading, and ruthlessly efficient money making

but you go enjoy your victory points.. cash them in for some smug feelings.. just remember the people who make this game what it is.. its typically not the 6 month CNR pve crowd..

---

Oh your being such a whiney little punkass. Your not scared of losing your adreniline, if you were worried about that you wouldnt be suicide ganking haulers. There's no adreniline in that, you shoot, they pop, you pop. You know exactly what'll happen. I make my living stealing so don't try to pull your self rightous bullshit in here.

You want CCP to make it easy for you to do what you want. Grow the **** up.

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

ALSO, who the **** shoots at everbody? did you not read the part where people have to actively scan, evaluate and commit to the gank?

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

I'd say that players in any MMO are clever at coming up with clever new ways to make other people miserable. (note: I like doing this to people!) In time these changes, just like any other EVE development, are going to be long forgotten as people exploit the new war mechanics or whatever else is newly available. I remember a very similar outcry happening when the privateer nerf hit... and yet nonconsensual pvp survives.

As long as CCP allows weapons to shoot player characters' ships in highsec, nonconsensual PVP is not dead. The new mechanics and upcoming nerfs may make things harder, but only until the latest method is found. And then we adapt.

I see no issue with these current changes, and i'm unwilling to concede that it implies a trend towards phasing out nonconsensual pvp in its entirety.

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

This is the point I was trying to make- That if you still scan, evaluate, and commit to your ganks, then why does this nerf do ANYTHING to you? Profitable ganks are still out there, easily! The ONLY people that should be affected by this nerf are the ones the indiscriminately kill targets, the ones that weren't profitable. The sec status lost WAS too easy to get back from both a RP and a gameplay perspective. If, as you say, you actively assess the risk/reward on each freighter you go after, then you should be able to do so post nerf as well.

If that means more freighters get away, well that's just how it is.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

The universe is still unsafe. It's just unsafe for them and you. They are making it harder and less rewarding to attack targets that try to minimize risk. Someone hauling in freighters actively chose a *less* risky profession to make money. There is still risk because of someone wants you bad enough, they are going to pop you, but that doesn't mean you should have to worry about a gatecamp in every system you go thru. Theres a difference between expecting empire to be unsafe, and expecting anarchy

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

I'd say that players in any MMO are clever at coming up with clever new ways to make other people miserable. (note: I like doing this to people!) In time these changes, just like any other EVE development, are going to be long forgotten as people exploit the new war mechanics or whatever else is newly available. I remember a very similar outcry happening when the privateer nerf hit... and yet nonconsensual pvp survives.

As long as CCP allows weapons to shoot player characters' ships in highsec, nonconsensual PVP is not dead. The new mechanics and upcoming nerfs may make things harder, but only until the latest method is found. And then we adapt.

I see no issue with these current changes, and i'm unwilling to concede that it implies a trend towards phasing out nonconsensual pvp in its entirety.

---

Let's see...

-WTZ nerf - Badly damaged low-sec piracy
-War-dec nerf - badly hurt privateers, and most mercs/pirates with the new corp-hopping ability
-Lofty removed - no more killing mission runners without 20+ buddies in battleships

That's just a few. In every case, non-consensual PvP was reduced by a large chunk.

These nerfs won't kill it either. It will just tighten the noose, and eventually it's going to kill it.

There's something called "pattern recognition" that a lot of people seem to lack these days.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:02:02
The universe is still unsafe. It's just unsafe for them and you. They are making it harder and less rewarding to attack targets that try to minimize risk. Someone hauling in freighters actively chose a *less* risky profession to make money. There is still risk because of someone wants you bad enough, they are going to pop you, but that doesn't mean you should have to worry about a gatecamp in every system you go thru. Theres a difference between expecting empire to be unsafe, and expecting anarchy

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

This is the point I was trying to make- That if you still scan, evaluate, and commit to your ganks, then why does this nerf do ANYTHING to you? Profitable ganks are still out there, easily! The ONLY people that should be affected by this nerf are the ones the indiscriminately kill targets, the ones that weren't profitable. The sec status lost WAS too easy to get back from both a RP and a gameplay perspective. If, as you say, you actively assess the risk/reward on each freighter you go after, then you should be able to do so post nerf as well.

If that means more freighters get away, well that's just how it is.

---

have you ever seen a freighter gank? do you understand how much it costs to gank a Freighter in highsec? do you understand how much MORE its going to cost. to the point where even the juiciest targets in the world become meager "break even" targets.

Also, this isnt about suicid ganking, its about the arbitrary limits ccp is putting on PvP at the moment.

"congratulations you capped the enemy corps headquaters, heres 10 victory points, when you reach 100 victory points you can trade it in for a new scarf of +1 fail"

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Yeah, and the previous *pattern* was "Whoever has the most SP and ISK can do whatever they want. And thats bad for both business, and a game world.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Yeah, and the previous *pattern* was "Whoever has the most SP and ISK can do whatever they want. And thats bad for both business, and a game world.

---

No, because no one could train enough skills to dominate like that.

But even if they could, why the hell should people be penalized for training skills and working hard? Why should we bend backwards to make life easy for those who should learn to do the same things we did?

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"

The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.

The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.

If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Heres a thought for you. People use freighters and haulers in 0.0 to move goods around, why arn't you and your crew out waiting for those? Is it because they have escorts and scouts that would pop you in a heartbeat? Yeah.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"

The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.

The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.

If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.

---

Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.

Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.

The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.

As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.

I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

And Vik, People shouldnt be penalized for working hard, but they also shouldnt be penalized for having heard about the game 2 years late. And you can't deny most of the changes coming down are to protect newer players. They may have some effect on the actual pirate-for-profit crowd, but thats not the intention.

Something had to be done because in the end, a 30mil SP char will always dominate a 3mil SP character, just because he joined first. Pair that up with an old PvPers vs a new industry player, and they have no chance.

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Heres a thought for you. People use freighters and haulers in 0.0 to move goods around, why arn't you and your crew out waiting for those? Is it because they have escorts and scouts that would pop you in a heartbeat? Yeah.

---

actually, BTDT. but also, whats gotten into your head since you started eve thats making you believe that Pew Pew HAS to be in 0.0 or lowsec? what if i prefer highsec, maybe the corp i run for my friends operates in highsec, and its easier to enjoy the game with my current group up here, perhaps i like to mine in my spare time, and then WARP TO ZERO haul it to jita for a profit,

perhaps im simply more flexible than you and do not solely believe that pvp = 0.0 and stupid mistakes = highsec.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"

The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.

The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.

If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.

---

Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.

Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.

The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.

As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.

I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim

---

Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"

The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.

The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.

If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.

---

Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.

Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.

The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.

As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.

I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.

---

Why? Corp theivery has arguably the highest punishment you can get in this game, which is to have the character in question shunned by anyone that doesn't want their things stolen. Becoming a pariah in a single sharded game isn't something to consider lightly.

I know you're doing it just to make money, but that doesn't mean you ARENT taking it from someone else. The other forms of moneymaking are taking isk from NPCs, which is entirely different.

Again, let me reiterate. Profiting from someone's loss is fine. Profiting from someone's loss to the same degree -or more!- that you could profit doing something else is also fine. Doing so with no penalties is not. Don't try to pretend that the insurance or the sec status hit weren't needed.

Once again, I don't believe nonconsensual pvp is being strangled out of the game, I believe it's CHANGING, which is different.

To quote jurassic park... Life will find a way.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:30:42
You know, I like the harsh forgiving Eve Idea. I think there should be no way to raise your sec standing, ever. You go down the road to being a pirate, you don't come back. It only makes sense that Concorde will shoot a known thief and murderer on sight right? So if you dip into -5 standings ever, you become Kill On Sight with all Sentries and Concorde ships. Theres a realistic and harsh universe. Enjoy.

Edit: It just doesnt make sense that a murderer killing other murderers in space would make you acceptable again, so I say we go with it.

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

So what your saying Mu, is you want the game to be cold and unforgiving, just not to you. Good call.

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

you fail on so many levels.. and you roleplay terribly

(you are only roleplaying an angst ridden stereotypical american teenager who cannot see past his own side of the fence, right?)

We work for our targets, and we still will, doesnt stop us not being happy that the game is being dumbed down so its safe for people to afk haul.

when you have some experience in eve other than todaki belt 1, come have a chat about game mechanics.

---

Originally by: Siberys

---

the 40k Baneblade

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Edited by: Vikarion on 07/08/2008 22:22:28
First, I have to state that, up until the last couple of days, I was a fanboi of CCP. This has changed.

I started playing Eve in the fall of 2007. Not that long ago. Before then, I had tried several MMOs, including WoW, DDO, GW, and so forth. None of them held my interest - there was no excitement, no thrill.

And then I found Eve. I started out as a miner, busily carting ore to and from the station. I feared ore thieves and anyone in a frigate, and hurriedly scurried to the protection of the docking port whenever someone warped into my belt. I viewed ore thievery as the ultimate evil, and pirates as dark predators waiting in the wings to devour me.

And you know what? I loved it!

The sense of danger even in hi-sec addicted me to this game. You were never safe, never protected, and you had to be smarter, better, more competent.

Since then, I have survived war-decs, run approximately 5728 missions, ventured into low-sec and 0.0, and finally, left my carebear ways and became an Empire war-dec griefer. And I loved CCP for the dangerous and open game they gave us.

But now I see all of the things I loved as a carebear being taken away, all of the danger, all of the thrill, all of the interesting things...all because people are too downright stupid to protect themselves and their possessions in-game.They act like they are entitled to what they want.

I can always go to low-sec and 0.0 for PvP. That's not the issue. The problem is that CCP is behaving ham-fistedly with minor problems - a speed nerf was necessary, and a suicide ganking nerf was ok - but CCP have done their level best to destroy entire styles of play. And now with the news that they intend to nerf war-decs even further - well, it makes me a little sick inside.

It's their game, and they can do with it as they wish. But when I signed up, I signed up with their promise that it would be dangerous everywhere, that it would be interesting everywhere, that I would have to think everywhere.

I don't want World of Warcraft in space. I don't want to mine in safety. I don't want Empire space to be safe, or my level 4 salvage to be protected, or my corporation to be safe from war-decs. I want Eve to be as they promised it would be - dangerous everywhere.

But, I suppose all good things must end.

---

Originally by: Andrue

---

Neither 'nerf' has actually appeared on Tranquility yet. Why don't you wait to see how they actually turn out before having your hissy fit.

I've been playing this game for over four and a half years and I've lived through a dozen nerfs. They are never as bad as the doom merchants claim and most of them turn out to be a great idea.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

Originally by: Acrel

---

War Decs where being misused.. People where either A making a 1-2 man corp and war decing mostly Indy/Starter corps just for a easy gank.. Or larger corps where targeting ALOT smaller corps for easy ganks.

---

See, this is the problem: this is what I do. I like doing this. And, the thing is, 12 months ago CCP thought it was fine.

Now they are saying that I'm misusing the war-dec system. Great. I find something I enjoy doing, and they take it away from me, AFTER stating that it was part of their "vision" for Eve.

Oh, and before I became a griefer and a pirate, I was a carebear. And people did this to me. And guess what? I didn't lose a single ship, because I played INTELLIGENTLY!

---

Originally by: Xevan Templar

---

Let's drop the intelligence crap. You just like to gank targets that relativly can't fight back. That's all part of EVE don't get me wrong, but to give a classic comparisen that's the same as a level 60 dude running around in the opposing faction starter area, constantly challenging new level 4 players, and hoping they accidently hit him so he can 1-shot them. If you like to play the game like that sure by all means, but you might want to realise not everybody likes this playstyle, including PVP die-hards.

---

Originally by: Vikarion

---

you know, I've never really been a fan of the "adapt-or-die" argument. It's simply applied too widely:

1. I can't breathe underwater! -> adapt or die!
2. BoB is getting t2 BPOs from T20! -> adapt or die!
3. I get disconnected every 37 seconds! -> adapt or die!

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:14:08
I'd say it's slightly more rediculous and arbitrary to have thrown "Police related suicide" into the Accept bin for insurance claims. Suicide ganking should never have been profitable because its amazing that anyone could believe that Insurance would pay out for that, let alone that the police would just let your friends loot the ship.

---

Originally by: Inertial

---

Originally by: Sean Forrest

---

Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:14:08
I'd say it's slightly more rediculous and arbitrary to have thrown "Police related suicide" into the Accept bin for insurance claims. Suicide ganking should never have been profitable because its amazing that anyone could believe that Insurance would pay out for that, let alone that the police would just let your friends loot the ship.

---

I'd say what you just said is just as rediculous and arbitratrary to have "Mined in pirate infested low-sec" or "took his ship into a 600 man fleet battle" thrown into the Accept bin for insurance claims. Its amazing that anyone would believe that Insurance would pay out for people who almost delibiratly put their ship in danger (something you do whenever you undock).

Insurance is for accidents in the real world, you don't get your Ford Escort's insurance paid out if you go to Iraq and it get "suicide ganked" by someone, just like the guy "suicide ganking" your Ford Escort doesn't get his insurance paid out.

Either leave insurance as it is, or remove it all together except if you accidentaly trash your ship instead of board it (insurance only payed out after having gone to virtual court with virtual lawyers etc).

---

Originally by: Le Skunk

---

Also CCP should consider removal of insurnace for mission runners. It makes no sense they can insure their ships 60 seconds before deliberatly flying into a 50 man horde of pirates.

---

Originally by: Le Skunk

---

Yes insurance need to be removed in all forms imo.

ESPECIALLY in 0.0. There is no logical reason 0.0 pilots should be able to insure their ships.

Also CCP should consider removal of insurnace for mission runners. It makes no sense they can insure their ships 60 seconds before deliberatly flying into a 50 man horde of pirates.

CCP action this please

SKUNK

---

Originally by: Exlegion

---

[
Wait. I thought missions were riskless. Why wouldn't an insurance company insure vehicles involved in riskless activities?

---

Originally by: Inertial

---

Edited by: Inertial on 08/08/2008 11:37:08
Edited for mission Ts.

Originally by: Exlegion

---

[
Wait. I thought missions were riskless. Why wouldn't an insurance company insure vehicles involved in riskless activities?

---

The rats might scratch the CNR's paint and cause a psuchological breakdown of the carebears fragile mind.

---

Originally by: Exlegion

---

Originally by: Le Skunk

---

Yes insurance need to be removed in all forms imo.

ESPECIALLY in 0.0. There is no logical reason 0.0 pilots should be able to insure their ships.

Also CCP should consider removal of insurnace for mission runners. It makes no sense they can insure their ships 60 seconds before deliberatly flying into a 50 man horde of pirates.

CCP action this please

SKUNK

---

Wait. I thought missions were riskless. Why wouldn't an insurance company insure vehicles involved in riskless activities?

---

Originally by: Esmenet

---

Originally by: Exlegion

---

Originally by: Le Skunk

---

Yes insurance need to be removed in all forms imo.

ESPECIALLY in 0.0. There is no logical reason 0.0 pilots should be able to insure their ships.

Also CCP should consider removal of insurnace for mission runners. It makes no sense they can insure their ships 60 seconds before deliberatly flying into a 50 man horde of pirates.

CCP action this please

SKUNK

---

Wait. I thought missions were riskless. Why wouldn't an insurance company insure vehicles involved in riskless activities?

---

The risk is purely RP.

---

Quote:

---

You know, I like the harsh forgiving Eve Idea. I think there should be no way to raise your sec standing, ever. You go down the road to being a pirate, you don't come back. It only makes sense that Concorde will shoot a known thief and murderer on sight right? So if you dip into -5 standings ever, you become Kill On Sight with all Sentries and Concorde ships. Theres a realistic and harsh universe. Enjoy.

Edit: It just doesnt make sense that a murderer killing other murderers in space would make you acceptable again, so I say we go with it.

---

Quote:

---

Vikarion left my carebear ways and became an Empire war-dec griefer

---

Originally by: Nidda Coldbrew

---

Not that anyone cares, but the two fundamental problems I have related to all these changes are:

1) Insurance was a bad idea that should have never been implemented. Instead of admiting that and removing it they keep wanting to tweak and fix it to find balance. There isn't a balance point. Insurance encourages reckless behavior, blowing yourself up instead of selling a ship you want to get rid of, and flying more than you can afford to lose by noobs. For older players it is essentially giving them free pvp as long as they stick to tech 1 ships. If I wanted that I would have kept playing Counterstrike.

With tech 1 pvp close to being free, people are acting like fools. I'm sick of hearing "I lost my BS, yuck yuck. Oh well, I have insurance, no big deal." Losing a BS should be a big deal, especially now that vet players have insane amounts of money. Or worse yet "I'll make more by blowing myself up than selling it". That's just wrong.

---

Originally by: Roguehalo

---

Can you nano Titans?

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/08/2008 15:42:36

I agree with the OP. CCP should withdraw their statement about Eve never being safe anywhere because its not true anymore.

Like the OP, I used to haul cargo across high sec in a hauler and it was very exciting to know that someone could suddenly blow me up. Now with warp to zero, I guess much of that danger is gone (even though I actually like that change). But the point is, Eve should be a dangerous place, even in high sec.

Making high sec into a safe zone for grinding is going to make the game worse in my opinion. Still a good game, but a step in the wrong direction.

Non-consensual pvp is now in the form of war decs only.

---

Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr

---

Edited by: Xzar Fyrarr on 08/08/2008 17:19:44
I fail to see how the wardec system is not working properly...Fix bounty hunting system as someone said.

@The op
Was State War Academy Glory one of the corps that made you want to pvp more I know we wardecced the corp you were in around december or january

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/08/2008 15:42:36

I agree with the OP. CCP should withdraw their statement about Eve never being safe anywhere because its not true anymore.

Like the OP, I used to haul cargo across high sec in a hauler and it was very exciting to know that someone could suddenly blow me up. Now with warp to zero, I guess much of that danger is gone (even though I actually like that change). But the point is, Eve should be a dangerous place, even in high sec.

Making high sec into a safe zone for grinding is going to make the game worse in my opinion. Still a good game, but a step in the wrong direction.

Non-consensual pvp is now in the form of war decs only.

---

Originally by: CCP Atropos

---

I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.

---

Originally by: Stele Toque

---

I kind of think everyone is missing the bigger picture here. This game isn't about you or me. It's about a certain group of people making their wallets fatter. Oh sure they may do it because they love it, but if they can't feed, clothe, or house themselves they'll stop doing it (in this case most are able to do all three quite well from what I've read). Regardless of what you may think or feel about how things should be with this game ... At the end of the day it's all about making a profit. If they don't then Eve Online goes bye bye.

Most importantly if they're not gaining new customers because something is driving them away ... guess what they will change to keep the new customers so long as it doesn't drive away the existing ones. They're seeking that balance to try and keep everyone happy, but ultimately want the larger customer base for all too obvious reasons.

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

the thing is, it is impossible to balance a game based on PvP, since the reality of PvP is that somebody ALWAYS loses.

every time somebody gets beaten in a way they dont like (whether it be ganking in empire cos they afk haul 1b in a badger) or whether it be getting blown up because they couldnt WTZ and dint have bookmarks.. each time something happens to the loser, they whine, and recently whines seem to be bowed to, and whines only ever lead to nerfs, not buffs.

how can you call everything balanced, if its all nerfed. dont nerf ganking, Buff tutorial on hauling.. i.e DONT BE AN IDIOT

---

Originally by: Stele Toque

---

I've seen pirates whine and cry as much as carebears in these forums about the changes but you're all still playing. This is what CCP wants and they're getting it.

---

Originally by: Roguehalo

---

Can you nano Titans?

---

Originally by: Mu Yaling

---

i do not disagree with you, but when core principals of a game start to get forgotten about, just to make a few 6 month subscription miners happy..

well look at SWG.

nuff said?

im not saying CCP arent good at playing the market now, im saying the market is no good at playing Eve.

---