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Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Kagura Nikon For thr BILLIOTH time. Pulse lasers trackig is WORSE than AC and blasters!! ITs blasters==AC >Pulse lasers on tracking. I dont knwo where in hell people keep gettign these ideas that pulse lasers are the best trackers and Blasters the worse. Hail M. There is no other option for max DPS on target (faction ammo deals way less, because EMP it's based on deals less damage). -50% tracking. Amarr can just use AN multifreq for a staggering 1% dps drop from conflag, the drop between Hail and RF EMP is about 10-11%, at which point you no longer have a damage or damage type advantage over the Harbringer and are likely to die even up close. That's what we're talking about, unless you missed the whole Hail M discussion. That's why my post-nerf setups have dual webs. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:39:00 - [62] Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Cpt Branko Dude, did you know you do no DPS worth speaking of past optimal+falloff? Dude optimal + falloff => 50% DPS Dude optimal + falloff => 39.5% DPS. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Maeltstome Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:17:00 - [63] Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian Tank and Gank It can be built with an impressive tank No it cant. It can fit a 1600 plate or 2 if you REALLY push it, but this ship CANNOT tank actively. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:22:00 - [64] Originally by: Kagura Nikon For thr BILLIOTH time. Pulse lasers trackig is WORSE than AC and blasters!! ITs blasters==AC >Pulse lasers on tracking. I dont knwo where in hell people keep gettign these ideas that pulse lasers are the best trackers and Blasters the worse. FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME: I said "include tracking" because: - Hail sucks for tracking - RF EMP M doesn't have the DPS - a HP Harby tracks a cane just fine at < 1km (web) Therefore: - Harby does more DPS - Harby tracks fine at 1km - Harby does more DPS at all ranges How hard is this to understand? -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:25:00 - [65] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kagura Nikon For thr BILLIOTH time. Pulse lasers trackig is WORSE than AC and blasters!! ITs blasters==AC >Pulse lasers on tracking. I dont knwo where in hell people keep gettign these ideas that pulse lasers are the best trackers and Blasters the worse. Burrrrp beep boopo zzzzzezzzzt whirl kerplop beep. How hard is this to understand? -Liang /signed
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:32:00 - [66] Edited by: Rajere on 11/08/2008 15:33:28 37.5% Quote: Also, I'm not going to argue that hail is 100% useless because you've obviously had some success with it... but I will say that hail is 99.95% useless and your anecdotal evidence seems to rank up there with me killing Myrmidons and Vexors in a Thrasher. anecdotal evidence: My Stats I use the hurricane more than any other ship and 90% of the time i'm using Hail M. The only time Hail is useless is if you are webbed, which is why you carry barrage with you. Then again I fit my hurricane specifically to use Hail, not as an EFT theorycraft gimmick. I've tried 1600 plate tank/dual web setups, and while they give you better EHP and in theory are better able to hold a target in range for hail, in practice i've found that they are too slow and too bulky to reliably close range on targets to get into hail range to begin with. About the only things you can reliably close in on are plated BS like blaster Megas and if you go toe to toe with a Blaster Mega you can kiss your EHP advantage goodbye. I bought 100k rounds of Hail M @ 100 isk/round back in the days when absolutely no one used Hail and it was cheaper than T1 ammo. Hail has gone up in price since people switched from QuickFit to EFT and realize it's the sekret sauce for leet dps, but hail is useless if you don't know how to use it. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:40:00 - [67] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/08/2008 15:40:47 Originally by: Rajere anecdotal evidence: My Stats I use the hurricane more than any other ship and 90% of the time i'm using Hail M. The only time Hail is useless is if you are webbed, which is why you carry barrage with you. Then again I fit my hurricane specifically to use Hail, not as an EFT theorycraft gimmick. I've tried 1600 plate tank/dual web setups, and while they give you better EHP and in theory are better able to hold a target in range for hail, in practice i've found that they are too slow and too bulky to reliably close range on targets to get into hail range to begin with. About the only things you can reliably close in on are plated BS like blaster Megas and if you go toe to toe with a Blaster Mega you can kiss your EHP advantage goodbye. I bought 100k rounds of Hail M @ 100 isk/round back in the days when absolutely no one used Hail and it was cheaper than T1 ammo. Hail has gone up in price since people switched from QuickFit to EFT and realize it's the sekret sauce for leet dps, but hail is useless if you don't know how to use it. Well. The issue with dual-LSE setups is: (a) They're weaker post-SISI changes. (b) They're not solo viable (read: they're hardly viable at all) post-SISI. (c) They're holding nothing in Hail M ranges post-SISI especially. Anyway, plate + dual web works fine. Yes, you must shut off your MWD off in a timely fashion in order to get to your desired 1km range where Hail is effective. If you don't menage to, well, then you just reload to barrage and hope the other guy has a crap fit (because with barrage you're not killing anything Amarr/etc of equal size unless they're stupid). And, yes, EHP counts a lot in small gang/solo, not just for blasterthrons - there's tons and tons of ships which will mow down a Hurricane without EHP to survive up close. Also, since we're posting KB links, try this for Hail M usage at point blank: Yarrr Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Rajere 37.5% 39.5%. You're forgetting the 1% chance for 3x multiplier at every range. You do 102% of your EFT/paper DPS at your optimal. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:20:00 - [69] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Rajere 37.5% 39.5%. You're forgetting the 1% chance for 3x multiplier at every range. You do 102% of your EFT/paper DPS at your optimal. What ??? why isnt it 50%? Some new matar bullshit...
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:21:00 - [70] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Rajere 37.5% 39.5%. You're forgetting the 1% chance for 3x multiplier at every range. You do 102% of your EFT/paper DPS at your optimal. What ??? why isnt it 50%? Some new matar bullshit... Hit quality. Sounds like you should go educate yourself. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.

Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:23:00 - [71] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Rajere 37.5% 39.5%. You're forgetting the 1% chance for 3x multiplier at every range. You do 102% of your EFT/paper DPS at your optimal. What ??? why isnt it 50%? Some new matar bullshit... Hit quality. Sounds like you should go educate yourself. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to learning about minmatar. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:25:00 - [72] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Rajere 37.5% 39.5%. You're forgetting the 1% chance for 3x multiplier at every range. You do 102% of your EFT/paper DPS at your optimal. What ??? why isnt it 50%? Some new matar bullshit... Hit quality. Sounds like you should go educate yourself. Oh so hit chance is still 50% :)
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh so hit chance is still 50% :) 39.5% of paper DPS is done. You can phrase it however you want if it helps you sleep at night. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:29:00 - [74] Originally by: Rajere I use the hurricane more than any other ship and 90% of the time i'm using Hail M. I'm usually using Tremor or RF EMP. Maybe I should claim that Quake is teh pwnz or something and everyone that doesn't use it is ****ed and an EFT Gimmick. Quote: The only time Hail is useless is if you are webbed, which is why you carry barrage with you. Then again I fit my hurricane specifically to use Hail, not as an EFT theorycraft gimmick. IMO, you give up too much to use Hail. Thus, I consider it's uses very limited (if not downright useless). Next you'll be telling me to use Rage missiles too. Quote:** Hail has gone up in price since people switched from QuickFit to EFT and realize it's the sekret sauce for leet dps, but hail is useless if you don't know how to use it. Dude, I hate to break the news to you, but just because you think you figured out how to use Hail doesn't mean that you're an uber leet PVP'er. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:46:00 - [75] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh so hit chance is still 50% :) 39.5% of paper DPS is done. You can phrase it however you want if it helps you sleep at night. Could you post the formula?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh so hit chance is still 50% :) 39.5% of paper DPS is done. You can phrase it however you want if it helps you sleep at night. Could you post the formula? I have several times, but ill do it simply. Hit quality at optimal ranges from 1.5-0.5x. It averages at 1.0x with a 1% chance for 3x, averaging 102%. Hit quality at 1x falloff ranges from 1.0 - 0.5x, averaging at 0.75x with a 1% chance for 3x, averaging .77x. Multiplied by hit chance due to falloff (.5) and you get 38.5%. My bad, I made it look better than it actually is. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:56:00 - [77] Quote: Next you'll be telling me to use Rage missiles too. Nothing the matter with Rage missiles. Cheaper than CN missiles and the cap penalty is normally inconsequential on a buffer-tanked ship. Rage HAMs are certainly the correct ammo to use against another BC.
Holy Lowlander Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:21:00 - [78] Hmm so the best ship in capitals-online is the cane ? and even if this was eve-online and not capitals online ... here is a small list of ships that > the Cane Drake Blasterrohk torpscorp torpraven onyx crow Harbinger Armegeddon apoc Abbadon prophecy Zealot sacrligiege curse ooh ok sorry I got bored ... all command ship most t2 cruisers most other BC's. and the drake isn't the best BC ingame . The myrm is . out tanks the drake . has much e-war fun as well. it looks weird. ooh and Quote: But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post. I fall for that one every single time >< d'oh !! ---- there's an evil monkey behind you !!
General Spaz Minmatar Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:03:00 - [79] Originally by: Gypsio III I think the Hurricane is the worst tier 2 BC. It doesn't tank very well and it doesn't gank very well either. Its mobility advantage is fairly inconsequential. It's the Tempest of battlecruisers. My Hurricane will pwn the **** out of any other T2 PvP fit Harbinger, Myrmmidon, or Drake you can throw at it... pick one. All setups must include MWD and Warp disruptor.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:05:00 - [80] Originally by: General Spaz Originally by: Gypsio III I think the Hurricane is the worst tier 2 BC. It doesn't tank very well and it doesn't gank very well either. Its mobility advantage is fairly inconsequential. It's the Tempest of battlecruisers. My Hurricane will pwn the **** out of any other T2 PvP fit Harbinger, Myrmmidon, or Drake you can throw at it... pick one. All setups must include MWD and Warp disruptor. Well fit harbinger will take you down, as will a HAM drake. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.

General Spaz Minmatar Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:13:00 - [81] Are you kidding me? Do you know how easy it is to stack against EM/Thermal on a Tanked Cane? Harbinger has no chance. HAM Drake is an easy kill too, barrage hits farther out and the Cane is faster. Also good luck with your 4 slot shield tank. If he fii=ts for damage he will melt very fast, if he fits for tank he will hit like a sissy.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:20:00 - [82] Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/08/2008 18:22:20 Originally by: General Spaz HAM Drake is an easy kill too, barrage hits farther out and the Cane is faster. Also good luck with your 4 slot shield tank. If he fii=ts for damage he will melt very fast, if he fits for tank he will hit like a sissy. I suggest that you have a quick look at the range of Jav HAMs. Following that, have a quick look at the difference in agility and speed between a 1600-plated, armour-rigged Hurricane and a Drake. Also, I use a seven-slot shield tank.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:21:00 - [83] Originally by: General Spaz Are you kidding me? Do you know how easy it is to stack against EM/Thermal on a Tanked Cane? Harbinger has no chance. HAM Drake is an easy kill too, barrage hits farther out and the Cane is faster. Also good luck with your 4 slot shield tank. If he fii=ts for damage he will melt very fast, if he fits for tank he will hit like a sissy. Um... dude. You have no idea the danger that a properly fit Drake poses. Wow. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
General Spaz Minmatar Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:28:00 - [84] Actually... I have another character that flies drakes, and yes i'm well aware of what Javelin HAM's can do. And no... I wouldn't use a plated setup against a Drake. The point i'm trying to make here is that there is a fit and counter for every BC setup there is no matter which race you fly. But, you never know how your enemy is going to fit do you?
Holy Lowlander Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:31:00 - [85] Originally by: General Spaz Originally by: Gypsio III I think the Hurricane is the worst tier 2 BC. It doesn't tank very well and it doesn't gank very well either. Its mobility advantage is fairly inconsequential. It's the Tempest of battlecruisers. My Hurricane will pwn the **** out of any other T2 PvP fit Harbinger, Myrmmidon, or Drake you can throw at it... pick one. All setups must include MWD and Warp disruptor. Myrm will kill you Drake will kill you for sure Harbinger will probably kill you as well.... If you fit EM-thermal hardeners , or Kin/thermal hardeners . you don't know much about pvp , but alot about level IV missions ..... ---- Listen to Eve Radio and Join DJ wiggles Frigate FFA on fridays!! yup this is a shameless advert from a random listener ....
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:52:00 - [86] Hurricane is complete pwnage Love the ship. Favorite ship in the game other than the malediction/crow/claw/typhoon/megathron/rapier tbh
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:58:00 - [87] Originally by: General Spaz Actually... I have another character that flies drakes, and yes i'm well aware of what Javelin HAM's can do. And no... I wouldn't use a plated setup against a Drake. The point i'm trying to make here is that there is a fit and counter for every BC setup there is no matter which race you fly. But, you never know how your enemy is going to fit do you? The point is that you're specifically fitting your cane to try and take out the general purpose fit from the other BC's. That's a recipe destined to failure. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 20:06:00 - [88] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/08/2008 20:09:26 To the guy with "I can counter-fit", I want that in-space refitting tool so I can tailor my setup to whatever target. Anyway, I'm still quite sure I'll win vs a Harbringer, if I land close. About the eff HP differences - being shot at by EM/therm doesn't make that much difference as you'd believe, because the Hurricane derives much of its effective HP from shields and structure too, and the Harbringer tends to do mostly thermal anyway, even with AN MF. Say you have a EANM II + DC II + 1600mm RT for a tank. If you are running un-trimarked you will have 45,273 effective HP (58,721 with trimarks). Versus the Harbringer, you will have 45,415 eff HP (58,969 with trimarks). It's 0.3% increase w/out trimarks, or a 0.4% increase with trimarks. A trimarked Harbringer (in a max gank HPL setup, meaning 800mm RT plate, or a RCU+1600mm which gives worse results) will have about 55.017 effective HP. Vs a Hurricane it will have 52.907 effective HP, which is a 3.8% decrease. Noticeable, but not very major. Naturally, I know little in way of Harbringer fittings. If it were possible to fit a 1600mm RT without grid mods together with a HPL setup it'd almost certainly win even solo close-range combat (and it already wins at any range other then point blank). Well, with max skills you can, but it requires you to fit 3 FMP IIs or 2 FMP IIs with a grid implant. I can't be arsed to do the math on what happens then, though. At any rate, the Harbringer is probably better for most purposes (particularly gang work), as the Hurricane offers very little advantage in gank over it, and neither of these ships can take on a Drake anyway (well, the Harbringer might have chances, but the DPS difference is too low to compensate for the effective HP differences, cant be bothered to do the math so don't quote me on that). If I wanted a BC to specialize in, I'd pick the Harbringer/Hurricane however, as there are no equivalents of slave-sets for shieldtanks, and I prefer ships which gank better anyway. So the two armour tankers offer higher max performance if you're going to sink a lot of ISK into them. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.11 20:22:00 - [89] Branko's post TL;DR Hurricane and Harby are good. Harby better for range/gang. Drakes **** both. Train for ze Caldariiii!
Feilamya Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:52:00 - [90] Awesome solo ship, bullet magnet and cannon fodder in fleets.



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