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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.12 12:41:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/08/2008 12:43:09
 Originally by: Venkul Mul
No.
It is curbing a little the carebear part of the ganking community with the insurance change.
How about curbing the carebear part of the carebear community for a change? They definitely have it way too easy.
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
Originally by: Gretzel
What are peoples honest opinions of EVE going care bear. Just wondering if this is time to jump ship.
You would jump ship on the basis of other peoples opinions ?
Well, if CCP said something about their intended changes to PvP and the direction they're going, it would be nice, but this way people can just discuss and guess based on what changes they're actually doing and what changes they've announced (wardecs next).
So people are guessing what's next.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Mikael Mechka
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Posted - 2008.08.12 12:46:00 -
[62]
Going more carebear? What? Seriously, EVE is not going carebear, the suicide gank nerf is not to stop suicide ganks, it is to make the NPC police and companies behave like something resembling real people. That means police will punish you more, insurance companies will refuse to reimburse your loss, etc.
I've been what most people would consider a carebear for the vast majority of my time in EVE, and am moving out into pvp. Over last weekend I experienced my first 0.0 blob combat, as well as a much less laggy, smaller battle. For me at least, EVE is becoming a more hostile place, or at least, one where I get to shoot at things more :)
Have you looked at the EVE map with the "ships destroyed in the last hour" setting? Do so, and notice the huge blobs in empire, and the relative peace of 0.0. Fighting is supposed to take place in lowsec and the lawless regions a.k.a. 0.0, not empire (unless you have a concord sanctioned war of course). Right now, Rens, Amarr, Jita and Dodixie all look like warzones.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.08.12 12:48:00 -
[63]
Different security areas catering for different styles of play, allowing a maximum diversity of customers to play on the same server.
If it's not hardcore enough for you, you are in the wrong place.
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.12 12:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Zeba
Insurance being totally axed for ship losses to Concord might be a bit harsh but really if your gonna make a few billion off the loot of a ganked freighter you can afford the cost of the gank. Saying that I think insurance on suicide ganks should be cut to about 40% of the normal platinum payout. That way it still hurts if the good lootz get destroyed but not enought to make the op a total loss. But hey thats why we have the forums and can voice our opinions at will. 
If someone bungle a ganking attempt it should feel teh loss, like the target feel the loss when the attempt is successful.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 12:55:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Different security areas catering for different styles of play, allowing a maximum diversity of customers to play on the same server.
If it's not hardcore enough for you, you are in the wrong place.
Sadly, it's one of those things you wake up into. At one time, you were in the right place. And then you wake up one morning, and see all the people around you, and wonder 'what the hell?'
While the term 'hardcore' is borderline derogatory, I do think that it may not be the 'right place' for many of us in the future. I don't play EvE to play in a world that follows the mainstream split of PvP and PvE. I play EvE because it's complex and mixes the two worlds in every aspect of gameplay.
To cater to the 'PvE only' crowd, you ruin that split. Just as catering to the PvP only crowd is impossible, due to the NPC baseline. Balancing the two is where it's at.
I just hope CCP takes the same approach as you mentioned, and continues to tell those who want 'PvE Only' that EvE is not the right place for them.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Darla Dawson
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Gretzel
What are peoples honest opinions of EVE going care bear. Just wondering if this is time to jump ship.
Agree with the OP. Seems eve is turning into care bear city.
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wdwjhdw
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:36:00 -
[67]
Am I the only one who sees the irony about someone who suicide ganks in hi-sec complaining about carebears.
Grow a pair and get into low sec, and stop yer whining.
Oh, wait better not. Someone might kill you.
Bunch of Hypocrites.
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Lucy'Lastic
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:38:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 12/08/2008 13:41:06
Once upon a time there was a sandbox. The guys who built the sandbox gave it to us. This was a very cool thing of them to do. We could build sandcastles and kick over other peoples in the sandbox. We could steal their spades and break their tools. We could take their sand and they could take ours. Every little ripple in the sand could be felt. 80% of us loved the sand. But 9% wanted the sand to be finer. 9% wanted it to be more like gravel. 1 % wanted the sand to be wet. 1% wanted it to be filled with rocks.
A division grew between the people who wanted it to be finer and the people who wanted it gravelly* (* if that's a word). One day the people who wanted the sand to be wet decided to start urinating in the sand. They urinated in everybodys sand. The people who wanted the sand gravelly didn't like this. The people who wanted the sand finer, who didn't like the people who wanted it gravelly anyway, thought this was hilarious. But the people who wanted finer sand didn't realise that, because we are all in the same sandbox ,the people who wanted it wet were in fact urinating on their sand as well. They where too preocupied with laughing at the gravel people.
The people who gave us the sandbox saw this and said 'No. Urinating in sand is bad.' and added kitty litter. Of course this infuriated the people who wanted the sand to be finer because the sand that they previouly had was 100 times better than the kitty litter that was added to soak up all the pee. The people who wanted the sand gravelly where overjoyed and thought this was hilarious and because they didn't like the people who wanted the sand finer they laughed at them. The people who wanted the sand like rocks where also pleased because it was a step in their direction.
Meanwhile the people who wanted the sand wet are just happy that their actions managed to upset everybody. They managed to upset the gravel people by peeing in the sand in the first place and they upset the people who wanted finer sand because the people who made the sandbox have now added kitty litter. The 80 % who thought the sand was fine were not happy either because they thought it was good sand to begin with.
Many people failed to realise that we are all sharing the same sand. There will always be people who want the sand finer and people who want it more gravelly. If the 1 % of people don't stop peeing in everybodys sand then the kitty litter will not be able to absorb it and will have to be replaced with rocks.
Leaving the people who want finer sand, the people who want gravelly sand and the people who thought the sand was fine as it was sitting in a box of rocks.
THE SAND DOES NOT BELONG TO ANY OF THE GROUPS ABOVE.IT IS EVERYBODYS SAND.STOP PEEING IN YOUR OWN SAND UNLESS YOU WANT ROCKS! 
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Loyal Servant
Caldari
PURE Legion
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:38:00 -
[69]
CCP has NO LOYALTIES to anyone but their bottom line.
The marketing people are telling them they need new players because the old players have already spent their money and recruited their friends so there is no more cashflow to be had from this group.
So, what everyone perceives as then listening to the 'carebear whines' is the marketing people telling them that new players are not coming into the game because they are getting manhandled by the old players.
This is the same reason that isk buyers are not dealt with and we have isk farmers logged in by the thousands.
Remember - anything to make the numbers look good.
The roughly 2,000 known isk farmers (there are more we don't know about!) that are logged in on a daily basis pad the numbers and the changes geared towards making it nearly impossible to get at them in NPC corps, as well as new players make eve very attractive for the casual 2 night a week player.
This is the cash they want.... and right now eve is not a game that can be played casually.
Keep this in mind when you make your choice to come or go.
The only way to force someones hand in this world is to not hand them the cash.
So, remember guys and gals... if you don't like the change you can leave.
However, make sure you get a LOT of people to leave or it will never change.
1 guy leaving is not enough, it has to be 10,000 people leaving.
Think.... this is a business and the only thing that matters is money - not service or your perception of service.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:47:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Gretzel
What are peoples honest opinions of EVE going care bear. Just wondering if this is time to jump ship.
Women and children first.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:53:00 -
[71]
This is looking like it has real possibility to be the next ship.
Of course Age of Conan did too, and that has just been a massive incompetence fest.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Jenna Shame
This is looking like it has real possibility to be the next ship.
Of course Age of Conan did too, and that has just been a massive incompetence fest.
You know that game has been in development for nearly 10 years, right? On paper, it looks great, and has for a long, long, LONG time. Too bad we don't play on paper.
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Zora
Gallente
Community for Justice
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:58:00 -
[73]
No, it's not.
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Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:01:00 -
[74]
Well if the definition of a 'carebear' is carrying out an activity with no risk then surely -
Suiciding freighters
and
Deccing helpless nubs
Must fall into the carebear domain. No?
C.
Originally by: Tarminic
Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:06:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Cailais
Well if the definition of a 'carebear' is carrying out an activity with no risk...
Not that I don't agree with the rest of your statement's implications, but I was under the impression that you couldn't do anything in EVE without risk.
Even being sat in a station you're at risk of it crashing or overheating your graphics card... 
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:18:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Loyal Servant
CCP has NO LOYALTIES to anyone but their bottom line.
The marketing people are telling them they need new players because the old players have already spent their money and recruited their friends so there is no more cashflow to be had from this group.
So, what everyone perceives as then listening to the 'carebear whines' is the marketing people telling them that new players are not coming into the game because they are getting manhandled by the old players.
This is the same reason that isk buyers are not dealt with and we have isk farmers logged in by the thousands.
Remember - anything to make the numbers look good.
The roughly 2,000 known isk farmers (there are more we don't know about!) that are logged in on a daily basis pad the numbers and the changes geared towards making it nearly impossible to get at them in NPC corps, as well as new players make eve very attractive for the casual 2 night a week player.
This is the cash they want.... and right now eve is not a game that can be played casually.
Keep this in mind when you make your choice to come or go.
The only way to force someones hand in this world is to not hand them the cash.
So, remember guys and gals... if you don't like the change you can leave.
However, make sure you get a LOT of people to leave or it will never change.
1 guy leaving is not enough, it has to be 10,000 people leaving.
Think.... this is a business and the only thing that matters is money - not service or your perception of service.
If every business lived by that same marketing strategy, how do specialty business stay around? If all a business cares about is getting more customers, then why aren't there more WalMarts around? How in the world do clothing stores like Belk stay in business, when WalMart puts out nearly identical clothes, AND sells everything else 'you could ever need'?
Delivering a quality product to a specific customer base is why games like EvE will continue to be around, even with games like WoW around. WoW may have a lot of customers, but there are enough players who think the game is crap and want something better. Which is why I think EvE will continue to grow.
I just hope their marketing department doesn't hold to the same innane belief that you seem to hold to. I hope they continue to market to those of us who want solid, freeform gameplay that involves players against one another. Hoping, however, doesn't relieve others of the same ignorant notions that 'businesses are only after money' and 'more is better.'
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:25:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Drykor
Or the 'intelligent' people could see that MOST of the things you listed would actually make the game harsher. And CCP barely ever made the game harsher after it went easier.
You missed my point, which is that plenty whine in both directions, and CCP does what it likes. They clearly care about the game, have a set vision for it, and often don't seem prepared to give on issues. The NOS and nano changes have been described as pretty harsh - so clearly the game does become harsher on occasion when CCP deem it so, to a given group of people. Harshness is in the eye of the beholder. The changes I listed above wouldn't be viewed as harsh by the people asking for them - that doesn't make them right.
Originally by: Drykor
So realistically you could say that Eve is catering to an easier less hardcore style of playing throughout the time.
You can choose to view it as such, but I think you're imposing your own bias. So much depends on one's definition of 'hardcore' - after all some advocate the entire of EVE being 0.0, without any thought on what effect that would have. Equally as EVE evolves the playerbase increases and therefore existing development preconceptions are tested. When you have 2000 players you have a tiny subsection of the planet and given ways to do things - as you expand, you find things that that 2000 found easy others find difficult, and may choose to fix them. Is this dumbing down, or maturing?
I could design a game that I viewed as a challenge, and give it to someone else and they find it impossible. If I redesign it to cater to that other person, am I making it less hardcore, or improving the design to correct a flaw in accessibility? Consider the topical suicide ganking change. Nobody cared about it when it was a random once-in-a-blue-moon thing, but when your playerbase becomes obsessed with it due to an increase in number of players (and only CCP have the facts on this, but clearly they feel that change did occur), a good game designer steps in to correct a perceived flaw that was not an issue before.
Really it comes down to personal views, the eye of the beholder, and to allege that CCP are somehow betraying a previous vision or listening to whines, as some do, is naive. They have always had a vision - what people impose on that vision of their own views is their own issue. People can yearn for EVE to be truly difficult, a real niche game where only a few hundred will play it in true hardcore mode, but that's just not realistic.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Mordekai Bloodwake
The Phoenix Enclave
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:30:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Gretzel
What are peoples honest opinions of EVE going care bear. Just wondering if this is time to jump ship.
I think this is a long term great move, it should 'infuse' the game with new players and fresh ideas! Eve's current PvP ruleset is not intended for the masses and with their current PvP state they will NEVER gain the subscription numbers other MMO's have gained nor will they be able to compete with other newer upcoming MMO releases.
An MMO based on UO old school PvP rulesets was great back in the day when the cost to run an MMO was minimal and a subscription of a few thousand players was huge! however in todays market its just not enough and there is not room for this type of 'nitch' MMO PvP ruleset.
I love Eve, it suites me however the PvP system ruins it for me and most of my friends i try to bring over. So yes, i welcome the change and hope to see more of it.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:35:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 12/08/2008 14:35:49
Originally by: Mordekai Bloodwake
I think this is a long term great move, it should 'infuse' the game with new players and fresh ideas! Eve's current PvP ruleset is not intended for the masses and with their current PvP state they will NEVER gain the subscription numbers other MMO's have gained nor will they be able to compete with other newer upcoming MMO releases.
This I would have to disagree with. I'd rather EVE retains an niche element by appealing to a subsection that actually wish to think and truly compete in some/all ways (depending on sector) compared to other mainstream MMOs (I'm not say you personally don't do that, just the tone of your post). Nonetheless my previous point stands that there has to be some adaptation, you can't freeze the game and say 'there, love it or hate it' because that doesn't sell subscriptions. You have to try and stay true to a vision whilst ensuring that people find the game accessible enough to keep paying. That vision is CCP's, not necessarily that of every player that has an opinion about it.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Nidda Coldbrew
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:39:00 -
[80]
To answer the OP's question - Yes it is. It's not even debatable. Ask any player who has been around 3 or 4 years if Eve was a harsher, meaner place then or now. And guess what, it also has a lot more subscribers now than it did back in "the good old days". So guess what the future holds?
And now for some ramblings about the whines of the day....
The nano nerf was 100% justified for game balance. Hopefully CCP doesn't temper the nerf to cater to the howls of the fake wannabe pvper's who want riskless pvp.
The sec status change is fine with me. It makes sense to scale the sec status penalty to the system security level. As an aside, ANYTHING that helps to buff low sec would be fine with me. It's vastly more dangerous than many parts of 0.0 and the rewards are a complete joke.
That CCP now wants to make changes to insurance doesn't surprise me, but it's trying to tweak a fundamentally bad idea.
The idiotic concept of insurance was inserted to make the pain of noob mistakes less painful (bad idea, pain is the best teacher) and to encourage more pvp by making the loss minimal. Well they certainly accomplished both! Now noobs learn nothing from their mistakes, and older players can throw away ships without any concern by self destructing to get the insurance money instead of selling the ship, rampant suicide attacks, and fighting idiotically seeing that losing their ship is no big deal.
You want to make Eve less carebear? Admit insurance was a flawed idea that you developed with good intentions and get rid of it. Your good intentions with insurance is doing the game far more harm than good with it's unintended consequences. Not that it will happen... the howls of the fake pvper's who like their painless Counterstrike like pvp would be epic. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 14:45:00 -
[81]
I don't understand why someone would come to EvE and expect CCP to protect them, to coddle them, or to defend their sensibilities from others. What about EvE, or heck, what about LIFE lead you to believe that the world works that way?
In EvE your in charge of defending yourself. The further CCP steps away from that, the closer this game comes to being a copy of all others.
I regret that so many players, specifically so many American's (because that seems to be a large part of the WoW surge), get it in their head that someone else should step in and act as Mr. Policeman. Your body, your mind, and your own soul are for your keeping. Yet they entrust their body to the government (millions are killed every day), their mind to the education system (leading to many dumber and dumber people), and their spirit to the preacher (who is often either banking off the congregation or building reasons why HIS view of faith is right over all others).
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:49:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Nidda Coldbrew
To answer the OP's question - Yes it is. It's not even debatable. Ask any player who has been around 3 or 4 years if Eve was a harsher, meaner place then or now. And guess what, it also has a lot more subscribers now than it did back in "the good old days". So guess what the future holds?
This is what I am afraid of, and that's why I wish CCP would make their intentions clear. Are they moving away from their self-imposed niche status and onto the broad 'casual' market? I still have enough faith in the company to believe they will live up to their vision, but the recent changes have strained that trust.
Originally by: Nidda Coldbrew
You want to make Eve less carebear? Admit insurance was a flawed idea that you developed with good intentions and get rid of it. Your good intentions with insurance is doing the game far more harm than good with it's unintended consequences. Not that it will happen... the howls of the fake pvper's who like their painless Counterstrike like pvp would be epic.
This! This would be a great improvement of the game. Do away with insurance and a lot of problems will be solved at once.
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Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:54:00 -
[83]
carebears keep ganking me 
- -
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Yussef
Amarr
Trader's Academy
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:58:00 -
[84]
The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:04:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ruze
I just hope their marketing department doesn't hold to the same innane belief that you seem to hold to. I hope they continue to market to those of us who want solid, freeform gameplay that involves players against one another. Hoping, however, doesn't relieve others of the same ignorant notions that 'businesses are only after money' and 'more is better.'
I used to think that, and thats why i was recommending the game to anyone i could. But I no longer believe it. Sadly i think that this will give EVE a boost on the short term, but i doubt it will be good for the longterm of EVE to move towards beeing one among many, instead of sticking with its unique nature.
Vote against the nano nerf! |
Mordekai Bloodwake
The Phoenix Enclave
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:51:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 12/08/2008 14:35:49
Originally by: Mordekai Bloodwake
I think this is a long term great move, it should 'infuse' the game with new players and fresh ideas! Eve's current PvP ruleset is not intended for the masses and with their current PvP state they will NEVER gain the subscription numbers other MMO's have gained nor will they be able to compete with other newer upcoming MMO releases.
This I would have to disagree with. I'd rather EVE retains an niche element by appealing to a subsection that actually wish to think and truly compete in some/all ways (depending on sector) compared to other mainstream MMOs (I'm not say you personally don't do that, just the tone of your post). Nonetheless my previous point stands that there has to be some adaptation, you can't freeze the game and say 'there, love it or hate it' because that doesn't sell subscriptions. You have to try and stay true to a vision whilst ensuring that people find the game accessible enough to keep paying. That vision is CCP's, not necessarily that of every player that has an opinion about it.
Well like it or not CCP is already hard trucking looking for a higher subscriber base. A great example is seeing an Eve-Online commercial on the Sci-Fi channel, i mean if that doesnt scream MORE MORE MORE then i dont know what will! And as much as i hate to say it, CCP will have to cater to the masses in order to attract more players and that means getting way from its (as you called it) 'niche' subsection and more mainstream and player friendly.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:52:00 -
[87]
Eve is turning "Whinebear".
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Liz Laser
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 15:58:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gretzel
What are peoples honest opinions of EVE going care bear. Just wondering if this is time to jump ship.
Did Eve nerf mutual PvP last night and I missed it?
There is no lack of available combat in Eve. Lessening the incentives for high sec ganking is something most of us can live with. Especially since, most players didn't find suicide ganking particularly attractive.
If you want to FFA gank people from the moment their character is created, join the Asheron's Call Darktide server. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 16:15:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Mordekai Bloodwake
Well like it or not CCP is already hard trucking looking for a higher subscriber base. A great example is seeing an Eve-Online commercial on the Sci-Fi channel, i mean if that doesnt scream MORE MORE MORE then i dont know what will! And as much as i hate to say it, CCP will have to cater to the masses in order to attract more players and that means getting way from its (as you called it) 'niche' subsection and more mainstream and player friendly.
But you seem to refuse to accept that EvE attracts more players each day, without yet 'catering to the masses', so to speak. Their market so far has grown from word of mouth, etc. As it continues to grow and is marketed better, it will get many thousands of players who come on, see that they don't like EvE, then leave.
But there will always be that strong percentage who come online, see how EvE is different, rise to the challenge, and stay. I'm hoping that CCP doesn't bend to 'keep' that already fickle player surge.
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with people finding out they don't like EvE. You can't please everyone.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Johann Jeneau
Gallente
Cricas Portuguese Korp
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 16:16:00 -
[90]
yes
I like my steaks bloody as hell |
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