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After more than a year, WTZ is still hurting PVP.

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murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:05:00 - [1] WTZ has hurt PVP in many ways: reducing the contact time between opposing forces, decreasing the travel speed differences between large and small ships to nothing more than align time and in-warp speed... the list goes on... Sure, bookmarks needed to be removed, but that doesn't mean that they needed to be replaced with something else. WTZ has decreased the relative size of the Eve universe by a massive amount. It's nearly as easy to move slow, fat haulers and battleships as it is cruisers and frigs with WTZ in place. Just think of the combat implications in 0.0: moving big fleets of big ships took a while. Fleets of smaller more agile cruisers with AB/MWD could actually out flank an enemy fleet composed of BCs and BS. The same goes for inty/AF fleets. Yes, I know that in-warp speed helps to make a difference, but there would be a much wider difference with a minimum 15km warp distance imposed on large ships. WTZ has impacted trade as well. It's become all too easy to fly 10-15 jumps one way to purchase items in person instead of either sticking to the local market where the extra 500k-1m ISK price difference is worth the convenience of buying local, or paying someone else to do a courier mission for you to move your items. Markets are now much more homogeneous, as everyone can simply travel to the various trade hubs in fifteen minutes or so to buy what they need, with a hauler no less. The answer is simple: impose a 115km radius 'no bookmark zone' around stations and gates, and have the minimum warp in distance to stations and gates become 15km. All other celestial objects (belts, players, wrecks, cans etc.) are able to be warped to at 0km. Players will always be able to warp to stations and gates at 30, 50, 70, 100km as needed, and will be able to place sniper/EW bookmarks anywhere they like 115km or more from the gates. This doesn't change anything with respect to current combat techniques regarding gate/station bookmarks. What it will do is ensure that no one can make 'insta' bookmarks to avoid combat or the cost of travel time. Even if you make 'security' bookmarks 300km off a particular gate so that you can warp there before actually jumping to the gate, how does that change current bookmark load/gameplay? You'd still have to warp in at 15km and leg it to the gate. Eve has been watered down over and over. The older meaner, more difficult Eve was a good thing. With an increasing percentage of the player base becoming more mature skillpiont/experience wise, we need a more difficult, more challenging game. The 'noobs' have it better than ever with almost 1m SP to start and easy ISK earning in high sec. A little travel time won't hurt anyone. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Xsag Caldari Black Fury	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:08:00 - [2] 1st post on whine thread \o/
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors.	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Solomon XI on 12/08/2008 08:15:14 2nd post in whine thread. \o/ That being said. This would, in a way, nerf station camping. Kind of. Maybe. Who the hell knows. Sounds like a bad idea and I don't even have to try it. Fail. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO)
Corduroy Rab Xenocidal Uprising	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:15:00 - [4] I'd say not only has it hurt pvp it has hurt more local communities, in low sec in particular. Just an observations from personal experience. I can't really see wtz being removed though. Man, how long ago was it that it was added, almost two years?
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors.	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:17:00 - [5] WTZ can easily be countered on gates. Any gang usually has a dedicated tackler (ie: ceptor) to catch said person AFTER he jumps a gate. The only issue here is the actual docking. There is already an aggression timer if you engage him/her/it. Maybe THAT should be increased... say... triple what it is now? ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO)
Leto TheTyrant	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:19:00 - [6] lol...let me guess...you are whining because you cant catch those pesky industrials landing at 0 at your local low-sec gatecamp? Well...nice try hiding it in a "look how damaging it is to the trade and 0.0 warfare". Well....im not hurting. 0.0 warfare is faster and more dynamic. Bubbles do their job in gatecamping anyway. No point in spending alot of time traveling when all i want to do is PvP.
Jim Raynor Caldari Shinra	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:33:00 - [7] WTZ makes the angels weep. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Bean Doodle Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:34:00 - [8] I dont pvp, I try to travel unharmed through lowsec. And I agree with the OP. Its ridiculous that you should need a whole bubble operation to stop a single ship. Removing WTZ would add MOJO to eve! Low-sec would become a cold harsh BA-DASS place again Do it oh, and ibtl btw... Woohootles
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Leto TheTyrant lol...let me guess...you are whining because you cant catch those pesky industrials landing at 0 at your local low-sec gatecamp? Well...nice try hiding it in a "look how damaging it is to the trade and 0.0 warfare". Well....im not hurting. 0.0 warfare is faster and more dynamic. Bubbles do their job in gatecamping anyway. No point in spending alot of time traveling when all i want to do is PvP. No, not really. Just a dislike of large ships being able to keep up with small fast ships, less differentiation in markets, no incentive to use couriers or dedicated haulers, less community and 'populated feel' of Eve as there is little actual traffic while at gates, just land jump and warp off. The diminished importance of Transport ships when compared to regular T1 haulers. The massive use of Freighters to haul small amounts of cargo because it's still relatively convenient to do so using WTZ. The time compression realized by WTZ has reduced the time cost for nearly everything in Eve and has thereby diminished everything we do. With every change like this Eve is diminished overall. You just sound really lazy and soft. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:35:00 - [10] With the nano nerf it will be worthwhile putting bubbles up.
McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:40:00 - [11] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Leto TheTyrant lol...let me guess...you are whining because you cant catch those pesky industrials landing at 0 at your local low-sec gatecamp? Well...nice try hiding it in a "look how damaging it is to the trade and 0.0 warfare". Well....im not hurting. 0.0 warfare is faster and more dynamic. Bubbles do their job in gatecamping anyway. No point in spending alot of time traveling when all i want to do is PvP. No, not really. Just a dislike of large ships being able to keep up with small fast ships, less differentiation in markets, no incentive to use couriers or dedicated haulers, less community and 'populated feel' of Eve as there is little actual traffic while at gates, just land jump and warp off. The diminished importance of Transport ships when compared to regular T1 haulers. The massive use of Freighters to haul small amounts of cargo because it's still relatively convenient to do so using WTZ. The time compression realized by WTZ has reduced the time cost for nearly everything in Eve and has thereby diminished everything we do. With every change like this Eve is diminished overall. You just sound really lazy and soft. Camp the other side of the gate. You can lock any "big ship" due to nano nerf changes. Remember - you are camping the wrong side of the gate.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:43:00 - [12] Originally by: McDonALTs Originally by: murder one Originally by: Leto TheTyrant lol...let me guess...you are whining because you cant catch those pesky industrials landing at 0 at your local low-sec gatecamp? Well...nice try hiding it in a "look how damaging it is to the trade and 0.0 warfare". Well....im not hurting. 0.0 warfare is faster and more dynamic. Bubbles do their job in gatecamping anyway. No point in spending alot of time traveling when all i want to do is PvP. No, not really. Just a dislike of large ships being able to keep up with small fast ships, less differentiation in markets, no incentive to use couriers or dedicated haulers, less community and 'populated feel' of Eve as there is little actual traffic while at gates, just land jump and warp off. The diminished importance of Transport ships when compared to regular T1 haulers. The massive use of Freighters to haul small amounts of cargo because it's still relatively convenient to do so using WTZ. The time compression realized by WTZ has reduced the time cost for nearly everything in Eve and has thereby diminished everything we do. With every change like this Eve is diminished overall. You just sound really lazy and soft. Camp the other side of the gate. You can lock any "big ship" due to nano nerf changes. Remember - you are camping the wrong side of the gate. Not everyone has that option. If you were a real PVPer and knew a little more about PVP, you would know that. Plus, what other side of the gate is there for a station? There isn't any. Fail more please. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:44:00 - [13] If CCP changed minimum warp distance to 15km now as they are also going to nerf speed and agility of most ships I don¦t think there would be pretty much any hope of getting past good gatecamp with enough dps in non-cloaking ship even in low-sec. Personally I¦ve been thinking about minimum distance of 5-10km from a gate (you can¦t warp closer no matter what) but to promote travel when you jump through a gate you appear outside the gate grid so people who want to camp gate have to catch you when you approach the gate now wait on the other side to clobber you there. Incidentally this would also make fleet battles bit more "interesting" as now defenders/pos attackers can¦t camp system they are attacking but have to spread out to different systems in groups in they want to keep the system secure, or be willing to slug it out as enemy has decent access to system now. Also much less lag-deaths at the gates when you jump in and get killed by titan or sniper blob while you are still loading.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Bean Doodle I dont pvp, I try to travel unharmed through lowsec. And I agree with the OP. Its ridiculous that you should need a whole bubble operation to stop a single ship. Removing WTZ would add MOJO to eve! Low-sec would become a cold harsh BA-DASS place again Do it CCP have made it plainly obvious that they dont want eve to be a cold harsh BA-DASS place anymore cause all the carebears they love so desperately would quit.
testalt01	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:52:00 - [15] How about catching them on the other side of the gate when they have already jumped through and landed 13km off the gate?
Kano Sekor Amarr The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:55:00 - [16] Plx not warp to 15, warp to 10 is ok, but yeah WTZ is OP. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:58:00 - [17] You are about 2 years too late. No bookmarks within 115km of a gate is quite a nerf in in itself, no need to nerf bookmarks. Why do you deserve a free bubble in low sec? If you want to kill a target in low sec then tackle it. Sniping @ 155km at ships that have no recourse other than not entering the system is terrible gameplay. I can also always make a regional set of 350km off gate BMs so warp to that, then align to gate, etc. Yay for BM spam again, I miss those days when you could cripple an entire system with your bookmark lag. Yes, travel times aren't as long for BS anymore, but that can be fixed in other ways (warp speed for one) Traveling 10-15 systems still takes quite a bit of time and non-hub markets have not crashed. I have a feeling you just want easy gank mode turned back on. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:59:00 - [18] Originally by: testalt01 How about catching them on the other side of the gate when they have already jumped through and landed 13km off the gate? BRILLIANT! I don't think anyone has ever thought of that before or brought it up. I'll do that from now on! [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:00:00 - [19] Originally by: murder one A load of twaddle... Yeah lets go back to everyone having 20,000 insta bookmarks!!! Personal Record \| Corp Killboard
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: murder one A load of twaddle... Yeah lets go back to everyone having 20,000 insta bookmarks!!! Uhm... fail?
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Vaal Erit You are about 2 years too late. No bookmarks within 115km of a gate is quite a nerf in in itself, no need to nerf bookmarks. Why do you deserve a free bubble in low sec? If you want to kill a target in low sec then tackle it. Sniping @ 155km at ships that have no recourse other than not entering the system is terrible gameplay. I can also always make a regional set of 350km off gate BMs so warp to that, then align to gate, etc. Yay for BM spam again, I miss those days when you could cripple an entire system with your bookmark lag. Yes, travel times aren't as long for BS anymore, but that can be fixed in other ways (warp speed for one) Traveling 10-15 systems still takes quite a bit of time and non-hub markets have not crashed. I have a feeling you just want easy gank mode turned back on. 350km BMs will still put you 15km off the gate, regardless of where you warp in from. They would be useless for 'instas'. Faster travel promotes high density trade hubs and the 'Jita Effect'. I've yet to die to a sniper of any sort while hauling, don't see the issues there, and I'm referring to before WTZ. It's not a 'free bubble'. There is nothing keeping a target from warping back out. I have a feeling you are just fat and lazy and like easy mode on. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:04:00 - [22] PrismX must be thrilled to hear that you guys want to have tons of instabookmarks again.
testalt01	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:10:00 - [23] Originally by: murder one Originally by: testalt01 How about catching them on the other side of the gate when they have already jumped through and landed 13km off the gate? BRILLIANT! I don't think anyone has ever thought of that before or brought it up. I'll do that from now on! that's what i have done and this is why you don't see me starting yet another one nerf-WTZ thread on these forums
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:13:00 - [24] Originally by: murder one WTZ has hurt PVP in many ways: reducing the contact time between opposing forces, decreasing the travel speed differences between large and small ships to nothing more than align time and in-warp speed... the list goes on... [...] WTZ has decreased the relative size of the Eve universe by a massive amount. It's nearly as easy to move slow, fat haulers and battleships as it is cruisers and frigs with WTZ in place. Just think of the combat implications in 0.0: moving big fleets of big ships took a while. [...] It's become all too easy to fly 10-15 jumps one way to purchase items [...] Markets are now much more homogeneous, as everyone can simply travel to the various trade hubs in fifteen minutes or so to buy what they need, with a hauler no less. You are talking like WTZ has actually changed anything in game... Which it really did not except maybe make it easier for idiots. Now I don't know what kind of foolishness you were engaging in before WTZ, but for me and I guess any other remotely competent player, it changed absolutely nothing except for having to click 'warp to' for a different item. Oh and of course ridding the database of gazillions of instabookmarks. Don't try to hide your whine for a nerf in a whine for a fix. P.S.: And are you seriously suggesting that there were FCs taking fleets out without bookmarks?? And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:13:00 - [25] Originally by: murder one Originally by: McDonALTs Originally by: murder one Originally by: Leto TheTyrant lol...let me guess...you are whining because you cant catch those pesky industrials landing at 0 at your local low-sec gatecamp? Well...nice try hiding it in a "look how damaging it is to the trade and 0.0 warfare". Well....im not hurting. 0.0 warfare is faster and more dynamic. Bubbles do their job in gatecamping anyway. No point in spending alot of time traveling when all i want to do is PvP. No, not really. Just a dislike of large ships being able to keep up with small fast ships, less differentiation in markets, no incentive to use couriers or dedicated haulers, less community and 'populated feel' of Eve as there is little actual traffic while at gates, just land jump and warp off. The diminished importance of Transport ships when compared to regular T1 haulers. The massive use of Freighters to haul small amounts of cargo because it's still relatively convenient to do so using WTZ. The time compression realized by WTZ has reduced the time cost for nearly everything in Eve and has thereby diminished everything we do. With every change like this Eve is diminished overall. You just sound really lazy and soft. Camp the other side of the gate. You can lock any "big ship" due to nano nerf changes. Remember - you are camping the wrong side of the gate. Not everyone has that option. If you were a real PVPer and knew a little more about PVP, you would know that. Plus, what other side of the gate is there for a station? There isn't any. Fail more please. Undock from station should be 15km away to prevent instadocking. Instadocking is getting nerfed. But you are camping on the wrong side of the gate. Get them on the other side. Thats what pirates currently do.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:14:00 - [26] Originally by: testalt01 Originally by: murder one Originally by: testalt01 How about catching them on the other side of the gate when they have already jumped through and landed 13km off the gate? BRILLIANT! I don't think anyone has ever thought of that before or brought it up. I'll do that from now on! that's what i have done and this is why you don't see me starting yet another one nerf-WTZ thread on these forums Clearly you are smarter than everyone else in Eve. My hat is off to you good sir. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Kye Kenshin Martial.	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:15:00 - [27] If they removed bubbles from the game and made the warp in point 10km I'd be all for it. I completely agree with you, EVE feels so much smaller ever since they brought in WTZ. At the time I welcomed the changes because instas were lagging the game to hell and I just wanted something done about it. Oh well. --------------------------------------
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:17:00 - [28] Originally by: LaVista Vista PrismX must be thrilled to hear that you guys want to have tons of instabookmarks again. I don't want instas back. Who said that? No instas, and no WTZ. Make it impossible to make an effective insta BM that would provide an advantage over no instas: no reason to make them. 115km no-bookmark zone around gates/stations, as in the original post. It will solve that problem just fine. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Guttripper State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:21:00 - [29] Instead of endlessly bickering (a favorite past time on these forums), how about a potential compromise to discuss? Larger ships have better navigational computers and thus should be able to warp closer to the gate. Smaller ships would have a greater chance of being off the mark, and thus appear farther away. Add a random drift distance, and warping is not a perfect art. Thus a battleship could arrive around 5,000 kilometers with a drift of +/- 2,500 kilometers. A cruiser could arrive 10,000 kilometers with a drift of +/- 3,000 kilometers. Frigates could arrive 15,000 kilometers with a drift of +/- 5,000 kilometers. While bigger ships could handle some combat, I feel that smaller ships could accelerate faster while having a smaller signature radius to lock onto and thus could reach a gate before being involved in deep combat sessions. And specialized ships like transporters should be able to have the ability to warp right to the gate. And CCP could offer (some) new skill(s) hears the outpouring of groans to reduce the drift factors but not the standard warp distance per ship class. Just an idea, instead of everything having to be so black and white on these boards among the player base. Thanks for reading.
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:25:00 - [30] gatecamping maby, hasnt hurt my belt hunting at all, just because you camp a gate dosent automatically mean you get to kill 100% of what warps to or jumps to your gate (and no i didnt read your op because its stupid ass pansy girlymen like you that are eventually going to ruin this game so shut the hell up allready)

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