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After more than a year, WTZ is still hurting PVP.

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Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:34:00 - [91] Originally by: Strictly Forums (2) CCP had designed the whole combat mechanic, including module balancing and new ship design, around the idea that most advanced players would have instawarp and instadock bookmarks. Wow, that's a fairly big assumption. It's completely illogical and wrong, of course, but it's still big.
Jeregh	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:34:00 - [92] with a no bm within 115k rule most people would make bms 350k off the gate/station as a view point. warp to it, if gate/station clear, warp on in, if gate/station not clear, warp to something else. and having all gates/stations bm free would lead to an even greater proliferation of bms as people would need many many more safe spot bms to warp amongst to avoid being probed out, rather then just docking up. sure this may be a "colder, harsher" change that would be aplauded by some, but its a change that would be painfully felt by anyone that wants to do any amount of major traveling. and lead to an end for any non high sec frighter traffic. plus likely hammer in that final nail into anyone in lowsec spaced beside pirates.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:35:00 - [93] Edited by: James Lyrus on 12/08/2008 21:35:45 Originally by: Synapse Archae Without WTZ travel time is too long to do anything meaningful at all. murder, I'm sure, knows this. Without WTZ (or instas) the universe takes longer to cross. Some of us think that's a good thing. Once upon a time, the EVE universe felt big. Once upon a time, local economies were relevant, and not everyone blobbed Jita. Instas and their predecessor warp to zero damage a lot of gameplay, but sadly there's just so many people who see their lives getting less convenient, rather than the overall quality of the game. I mean, even when instas were the primary thing, there were people who 'couldn't go anywhere' if they didn't have the instas. Which frankly was just sad. Instas weren't necessary, and neither was warp to zero, they were just a bit of powercreep in the game - you can't afford not to, when the other guy is. shrug. Water under the bridge. Too many people will cry at rolling back to a day when everyone travels 15km in each system, because they'll get hung up on the time it takes them to go 10 jumps, and forget that when you slow down _everyone_ then you're not losing out overly. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Strictly Forums	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:36:00 - [94] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Strictly Forums (2) CCP had designed the whole combat mechanic, including module balancing and new ship design, around the idea that most advanced players would have instawarp and instadock bookmarks. Wow, that's a fairly big assumption. It's completely illogical and wrong, of course, but it's still big. Not in the least. Everyone who was not a total noob and who was in low sec or 0.0 had instas. Everyone. Of course they had to make that a central assumption in their combat design -- it was simply the reality in space.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:38:00 - [95] Originally by: Strictly Forums Not in the least. Everyone who was not a total noob and who was in low sec or 0.0 had instas. Everyone. Of course they had to make that a central assumption in their combat design -- it was simply the reality in space. It's true that most people had instas. It's not true that it was intentional from CCP to begin with, or that they designed the combat system around it. It's an example of creative players doing stuff developers didn't think about.
Strictly Forums	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:41:00 - [96] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Strictly Forums Not in the least. Everyone who was not a total noob and who was in low sec or 0.0 had instas. Everyone. Of course they had to make that a central assumption in their combat design -- it was simply the reality in space. It's true that most people had instas. It's not true that it was intentional from CCP to begin with, or that they designed the combat system around it. It's an example of creative players doing stuff developers didn't think about. Yes, but once it became established, of course they designed around it. To do otherwise would be grossly negligent design. It was not the initial design, but it certainly was baked into design decisions made after instas became established, without doubt.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:55:00 - [97] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Strictly Forums Not in the least. Everyone who was not a total noob and who was in low sec or 0.0 had instas. Everyone. Of course they had to make that a central assumption in their combat design -- it was simply the reality in space. It's true that most people had instas. It's not true that it was intentional from CCP to begin with, or that they designed the combat system around it. It's an example of creative players doing stuff developers didn't think about. "instas" were around from the very beginning. They were not "designed" into the game, but they were in the game from the second beta forward. There used to be a player guide page about how to make and use them on this very site. ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.12 22:02:00 - [98]
Clone 231A	Posted - 2008.08.12 22:04:00 - [99] I think that murder is right about instas messing up eve, but his fix is wrong. CCP made a mistake in making an item that could be created by the players. Being able to create bookmarks was/is just a bad idea. Bookmarks have been a source of exploits since the game has been released,and CCP should really look into fixing that. Can't you guys imagine how eve would be without super-fast travel? Mega blobs - mostly gone. Instas allow people from two regions away to join a gang in 5 minutes. Black hole of Jita - severely reduced in size. Why would someone travel from half way across eve unless they had no other choice? Super-mega alliance blocks - gone, the big alliances won't be able to project force half way across eve in a few hours time. Of course this does not address the other part of the problem... cap ship blobs. When instas go, cap ships will probably become even more prevalent (is this even possible) because of easy travel. How can you call yourself hardcore and want hello-kitty travel? WTZ + Cap jumps = Eve on easy mode.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.12 22:08:00 - [100] Originally by: Clone 231A stuff Nerfing warp speeds achieves a increase in travel time/effective world size without impacting anything else. - DesuSigs

Crimson Cerebus Hammer Of Light	Posted - 2008.08.12 22:14:00 - [101] Edited by: Crimson Cerebus on 12/08/2008 22:15:30 Edited by: Crimson Cerebus on 12/08/2008 22:14:31 Edited by: Crimson Cerebus on 12/08/2008 22:13:57 /Me fails @ posting. Crumplecorn's idea has more of a chance than trying to delete features that CCP put in the game. You get my vote.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.12 22:14:00 - [102] Originally by: Clone 231A Edited by: Clone 231A on 12/08/2008 22:07:28 I think that murder is right about WTZ messing up eve, but his fix is wrong. CCP made a mistake in making an item that could be created by the players. Being able to create bookmarks was/is just a bad idea. Bookmarks have been a source of exploits since the game has been released,and CCP should really look into fixing that. Can't you guys imagine how eve would be without super-fast travel? Mega blobs - mostly gone. WTZ allows people from two regions away to join a gang in 5 minutes. Black hole of Jita - severely reduced in size. Why would someone travel from half way across eve unless they had no other choice? Super-mega alliance blocks - gone, the big alliances won't be able to project force half way across eve in a few hours time. Of course this does not address the other part of the problem... cap ship blobs. When instas go, cap ships will probably become even more prevalent (is this even possible) because of easy travel. How can you call yourself hardcore and want hello-kitty travel? WTZ + Cap jumps = Eve on easy mode. Good point, we should take this to city hall. TO THE JUMPCLONE VAT ROBIN!
Kosume Ike Amarr GoldenWind	Posted - 2008.08.13 01:30:00 - [103] Originally by: Crumplecorn Nerfing warp speeds... without impacting anything else. Warp time to a belt upon arriving to system? Rewarp times in battles?
Faekurias Black Legion Command	Posted - 2008.08.13 01:33:00 - [104] Edited by: Faekurias on 13/08/2008 01:33:01 nothanks,k, sucks enough time as it is. We are recruiting.
BlackMoon Thrawn Stimulus	Posted - 2008.08.13 02:16:00 - [105] WTZ has been one of the better changes over the last couple years. Sure you lose some kills but the trade-off in travel time and ease of operation has been great.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.13 02:19:00 - [106] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Clone 231A stuff Nerfing warp speeds achieves a increase in travel time/effective world size without impacting anything else. The whole point is to remove the invulnerability of players and increase dwell time at gates and stations. The whole problem of ship speed disparity is another issue. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.13 02:28:00 - [107] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Clone 231A stuff Nerfing warp speeds achieves a increase in travel time/effective world size without impacting anything else. The whole point is to remove the invulnerability of players and increase dwell time at gates and stations. The whole problem of ship speed disparity is another issue. The post that that was a response to was referring only to the travel time aspects. Anyway, your OP fairly well hid what is now the 'whole point' behind a bunch of other issues which could be resolved without touching WTZ. In the end it really does come down to wanting easier kills, huh? - DesuSigs
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.13 03:24:00 - [108] LOL @ all the hate. All the "learn to play", "learn to camp the other side of the gate", "all you want are easy kills", "use a bubble, use a dictor, use a HIC". Let's stick our heads in the sand even further. No, 350km BMs arn't going to help. What is stopping players from making 350km scout BMs right now? Nothing. I use them all the time, if for no other reason than to warp in to a gate from a different direction. Of course I use HICs and dictors and deployable bubbles. I have to to be competetive. Can't someone come up with real arguments as to why WTZ is good for Eve? So far I haven't seen any. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.13 03:43:00 - [109] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 13/08/2008 03:45:14 title should be changed to "hurting gate camping" tbh.... yeah, I remember somewhere when WTZ was introduced an dev mentioned that dont want low sec pvp to be at the gates... (in addition the the MASSIVE bookmarks that the server was choking on..... and afew other reasons I cant remember...) so.. shrugs ....working as intended? hurting gate pvp? you can still scan down mission runners and stuff though... or go to 0.0 and watch an entire alliance panic as you warp to a SS and cloaks =P edit: yeah, gate camping changed, but to say it hurts ALL pvp seems to be a hyperhole... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:05:00 - [110] I'm just upset that ships have no reason to move at sub-warp anymore because you can warp to this warp to that and not have any inbetween. The only time you really ever have to see your ship moving at a sub-warp speed is when you are actually in combat or alinging to warp. Neat. Anyway, it took away the scale of EVE in my opinion. It made every ship virtually the same speed. You don't have little races to gates anymore or anything. I mean, it just limited the game's vastness imo. Randomize warp landing points. If you get thrown 6000m off a gate when you land, oh no, travel to the gate. If you are in lowsec, shit is supposed to be risky. I'm tired of seeing these guys floating through lowsec with istabs and nanos completely unharmed. Caracals with 1 second align times are disgusting. CCP fix this. www.siigarikitawa.com

Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:06:00 - [111] Originally by: murder one LOL @ all the hate. All the "learn to play", "learn to camp the other side of the gate", "all you want are easy kills", "use a bubble, use a dictor, use a HIC". Let's stick our heads in the sand even further. No, 350km BMs arn't going to help. What is stopping players from making 350km scout BMs right now? Nothing. I use them all the time, if for no other reason than to warp in to a gate from a different direction. Of course I use HICs and dictors and deployable bubbles. I have to to be competetive. Can't someone come up with real arguments as to why WTZ is good for Eve? So far I haven't seen any. sure, it lets me go through low sec without having to jump my alt 20 systems just to see if there's a HIC (designed for post WTZ eve) on the other side of every warp "but eve is only, only, only about me killing noobs" you say "well, i guess not", i say. "sounds like you're wrong on that point" - -
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:28:00 - [112] Originally by: murder one LOL @ all the hate. All the "learn to play", "learn to camp the other side of the gate", "all you want are easy kills", "use a bubble, use a dictor, use a HIC". Let's stick our heads in the sand even further. No, 350km BMs arn't going to help. What is stopping players from making 350km scout BMs right now? Nothing. I use them all the time, if for no other reason than to warp in to a gate from a different direction. Of course I use HICs and dictors and deployable bubbles. I have to to be competetive. Can't someone come up with real arguments as to why WTZ is good for Eve? So far I haven't seen any. Because its tedious to spend a large portion of my time traveling to a gate in a slow ship. We can change the name to "Slowboating Online". If you are in a remote area with a limited market and lets say you have your ship in 1 system, guns 3 jumps away in 1 direction, then have to back track another 6 jumps to get a MWD, etc. You end up spending 30 minutes just to get the mods you need to fit your ship. Some people have very little time to play the game and I'm sure they don't want to spend it traveling around forever just to get a mod you need. Call it "lazy" but it seems the underlying reason you are complaining about this is you have to put more effort to get ganks and you blanket you argument with trade reason and flanking ability. Which in fact makes YOU lazy. If you hate WTZ then don't use it. Warp yourself to 15km. Waste your time traveling to a stargate if thats what you find fun.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:39:00 - [113] Edited by: Soporo on 13/08/2008 04:40:19 WT0 may have hurt certain aspects of pvp, but the lag causing billion bookmarks hurt more. Oh and btw, when it was implemented, the SKY WAS FALLING then too.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:40:00 - [114] the true killer to pvp was the introduction of battleships Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:45:00 - [115] Originally by: murder one Eve has been watered down over and over. The older meaner, more difficult Eve was a good thing. CCP doesn't think so. What you suggest would make it harder to avoid non-consensual PvP. Everything CCP has done in the last six months has had the effect of making it easier to avoid... unfortunately, your proposal doesn't fit with the apparent mission plan. Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:52:00 - [116] Originally by: Anubis Xian Nothing else is convenient in EvE, why should travel be? I came for the shiny outer space graphics but I stayed for the Bottomless Mug of Hassle. Mmmmmm! Now that's a tasty user interface!
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.13 05:33:00 - [117] I made PERFECT (no joke, BETTER than WTZ) bookmarks for 4 regions, including stations. Ever gate to gate and every gate to station and even station to station Bookmarks. I owned Bookmarks for the entire Eve galaxy. I copied them by the tens of thousands for alliance mates (modest fee), and general sale (higher fee). I was never even close to the biggest Bookmark seller, but NO ONE matched my quality (although some came close to matching it. While all the purchaced sets I owned were usable and effective Bookmark sets, a few of the purchaced sets I had were very well made, almost to my level of quality.....) And I can make such bookmark sets again. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 05:46:00 - [118] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 13/08/2008 05:46:31 I remember during my trial I made instas to decrease my travel time. Thats right as a complete newbie I quickly learned to use bookmarks to move from gate to gate. If bookmarks arnt allowed 115k around gates I would make them 300k off every gate so I can check it. WTZ is fine. And its going to be even more fine when they nerf the align times of several ships. --
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:41:00 - [119] Bawww. WTZ means you can't gank everyone because they're piloting their ship rather than autopiloting? Shame that.
Krycka Minmatar Nightmare Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.13 09:51:00 - [120] I do agree with op, wtz is no fun. Med ett shysst jSrnr÷r kan man sls hela vSrlden med hSpnad!



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