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Vladimir Griftin
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:40:00 -
[1]
So, as the game continues on its natural progression, ISK inflation rampantly out of control. The idea of having fleets of Titans isn't that far away.
Seeing triple DD's wipe out entire fleets (Impossible to tank 3 in any sub-capital) is becoming pretty common place.
Eventually we will see fleets of enough Titans to take out Capital fleets. Hot dropping 15 Titans on someones Carrier or unsieged Dread fleet and obliterating them WILL become a reality.
Did anyone at CCP actually consider this when designing Titans? Is there some kind of defence mechanism in the works to counter this? Or is everyone's only option 'just dont leave the cyno jammed systems'?
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CrayC
Gallente CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:47:00 -
[2]
I would say the sky is falling, but we're flying above it, so...
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hired goon
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:48:00 -
[3]
Yeah, the defence mechanism was making them so expensive that alliances will generally be able to afford only one.
OH SHI-
-omg-
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Theo Samaritan
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:49:00 -
[4]
Wouldn't the inflation of isk make Titan's more expensive?
I can see your concern but to be honest it will be a while to come. Alot of people have no urge to fly even a mothership let alone a titan, and even those who make an alt for a Titan have a couple years of training to do. ________________________
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries Ultionis Quietus
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Korizan on 13/08/2008 13:52:00 Not sure but one thing I have always wondered about.
Say a fleet of 4 titans jumps in and sets off there DD's This means every titan receives 3 DD's worth of damage.
So the question is; How many DD's does it take to POP a titan ?
And most importantly. How many licks does it take to get to the center of a toostie pop ?
Perhaps the owl has the answer to both questions
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Korizan
So the question is; How many DD's does it take to POP a titan ?
More than it takes to pop anything else.
- Infectious - |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 13/08/2008 13:53:59 Titan fleets have been on the table since they came out "What if there's too many!".
Now, time has passed, and we've yet to see any sign of this.
It's safe to assume, it's not gonna happen anytime soon.
Also you still need the pilots.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Vladimir Griftin
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Theo Samaritan Wouldn't the inflation of isk make Titan's more expensive?
I can see your concern but to be honest it will be a while to come. Alot of people have no urge to fly even a mothership let alone a titan, and even those who make an alt for a Titan have a couple years of training to do.
Your wrong, on both counts, ISK inflation means ISK is easier to get, while prices stay largely the same.
An alliance with a researched BPO can make a Titan for about 40 billion. That's not actually that much these days.
Once upon a time, Battleships were considered to be unbelievably overpowered and a fleet of 10 of them would be unstoppable. But they were VERY expensive.. and here we are today.
The logical progression is onto bigger ships so eventually it WILL happen. We already see 7-8 Titans in a single system.
The problem with Titans is they are one button wonders. Two sides each fielding 15 Titans each is an utterly ridiculous scenario. Anything sub-supercapital would be vaporized (without a fight), so your left with 15 Titans on each side unable to kill each other.
How much fun does THAT sound?
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vladimir Griftin Did anyone at CCP actually consider this when designing Titans? Is there some kind of defence mechanism in the works to counter this? Or is everyone's only option 'just dont leave the cyno jammed systems'?
I'm not entirely sure they did, actually.
It's impossible to balance something entirely around cost because there is no cap for an alliance's ability to build wealth as long as they can defend their space (titans assist in doing that, which doesn't help).
The best solution needs to be the same solution that makes it so alliances can't come up with too many capital ships and carriers (though carriers is arguable in that regard) - they they're ineffective against smaller more numerous ships. A Titan's DDD is more effective against smaller, more numerous ships. They also need to be buffed so that alliances are actually willing to commit them in combat, as that's the only way they're going to be destroyed realistically. Otherwise alliances will just stockpile titans which makes it impossible for any entity without titans (i.e. one not holding 0.0 space) to effectively attack them. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Nidda Coldbrew
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vladimir Griftin
Originally by: Theo Samaritan Wouldn't the inflation of isk make Titan's more expensive?
I can see your concern but to be honest it will be a while to come. Alot of people have no urge to fly even a mothership let alone a titan, and even those who make an alt for a Titan have a couple years of training to do.
Your wrong, on both counts, ISK inflation means ISK is easier to get, while prices stay largely the same.
An alliance with a researched BPO can make a Titan for about 40 billion. That's not actually that much these days.
Once upon a time, Battleships were considered to be unbelievably overpowered and a fleet of 10 of them would be unstoppable. But they were VERY expensive.. and here we are today.
The logical progression is onto bigger ships so eventually it WILL happen. We already see 7-8 Titans in a single system.
The problem with Titans is they are one button wonders. Two sides each fielding 15 Titans each is an utterly ridiculous scenario. Anything sub-supercapital would be vaporized (without a fight), so your left with 15 Titans on each side unable to kill each other.
How much fun does THAT sound?
Exactly correct, and spot on. Good post.
Titan fleets are inevitable, at which point CCP will either nerf Titans or introduces another class of ship even more powerful. |
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Vladimir Griftin Did anyone at CCP actually consider this when designing Titans? Is there some kind of defence mechanism in the works to counter this? Or is everyone's only option 'just dont leave the cyno jammed systems'?
I'm not entirely sure they did, actually.
It's impossible to balance something entirely around cost because there is no cap for an alliance's ability to build wealth as long as they can defend their space (titans assist in doing that, which doesn't help).
The best solution needs to be the same solution that makes it so alliances can't come up with too many capital ships and carriers (though carriers is arguable in that regard) - they they're ineffective against smaller more numerous ships. A Titan's DDD is more effective against smaller, more numerous ships. They also need to be buffed so that alliances are actually willing to commit them in combat, as that's the only way they're going to be destroyed realistically. Otherwise alliances will just stockpile titans which makes it impossible for any entity without titans (i.e. one not holding 0.0 space) to effectively attack them.
I've heard the argument for a scripted DDD. Nerf the smartbomb effect, add a focused "death star" type ship/pos/anything killing beam, walla! Balance.
Ok, maybe not, but I think it would be interesting.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:15:00 -
[12]
I always say, have a titan align to a regional capital or it won't be able to online any modules. So the alliances will be limited to one per region they control. Maybe have motherships align to a constellation capital but they would have to be really useful first. This would give sovereignty some more meaning, too.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Abrazzar I always say, have a titan align to a regional capital or it won't be able to online any modules. So the alliances will be limited to one per region they control. Maybe have motherships align to a constellation capital but they would have to be really useful first. This would give sovereignty some more meaning, too.
this!
Trinity Corporate Services
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:24:00 -
[14]
think you will fine more motherships than titans to be honest as there more handy
Quote: down near the station bio mass plant you can buy burgers that are 5% pork and 95% CRAP
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vladimir Griftin ISK inflation means ISK is easier to get, while prices stay largely the same.
Actually, that's the very definition of DEFLATION. Inflation is when the true value of the currency sinks (too much money, too little goods), and prices go through the roof.
_
THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:26:00 -
[16]
Titans will be nerfed soon because it's impossible to tackle something when 3+ Titans of the same dmg type are on the grid (unless you happen to have an expensive HIC designed to tank just enough of the right type of DDs, like a Devoter for 3 Ragnaroks).
I would imagine that DD's will be nerfed so only 1 can be activated per 30 minutes and system. It's a simple and reasonable change.
Apart from that, they could also add capital tackling mods to the game (e.g. infinipoint for Carriers/MS) or make HICs immune to DD.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Chochos
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: GallenteCitizen20080615 think you will fine more motherships than titans to be honest as there more handy
Motherships are quicker to train for, and a 1/4 of the price.
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries Ultionis Quietus
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:32:00 -
[18]
Simple solution.
Do to the concussion wave from a DD and a titans size. Setting off a DD in proximity of another Titan will cause structural damage in the amount of the DD. Do to this being a pressure wave and structural design issue it can't be tanked via adding resistance mods.
THere you go, nothing extreme but it will definitely make people think twice about having multiple Titans on the same grid. Also provides for a nasty way for titans to fight each other. Titan's structure goes to 0 they go POP regardless of there shields or armor.
Just a thought.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nicho Void I've heard the argument for a scripted DDD. Nerf the smartbomb effect, add a focused "death star" type ship/pos/anything killing beam, walla! Balance.
Ok, maybe not, but I think it would be interesting.
I would be fine with this, and it would be a good use for the titan as an anti-capital ship.
Double DDD damage, give it a signature resolution of 1000, and a script that triples of quadruple damage against a single target. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
oniplE
Loving Pirates
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:38:00 -
[20]
They could use signature radius to influence the damage taken on big ships.
Titans have.. 16000 signature radius right? So make the DDD's do 1 million damage on a signature radius of 16000. Ships with a smaller radius will take a lot less damage, so it wont be overpowered and it will not weaken the DDD weapon.
Could work, i just thought up some numbers so it might need some tweaking :P x |
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cyboman
Caldari Mafia Italiana
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:40:00 -
[21]
Somebody do the math... can a Titan withstand a DD from another Titan?
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Fujiko MaXjolt
Caldari Templar Republic
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:43:00 -
[22]
Wouldn't by far the simplest balancing trick be to just have AOE weapons suffer from the same penalties missiles do ? ie. sig radius and speed affecting how much damage you take.
Ofcourse, if you did this you'd be majorly nerfing the anti-blob effect of a titan, lol
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries Ultionis Quietus
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:57:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Korizan on 13/08/2008 14:58:46 OR you could seriously nerf Titans.
THe only way you can use a DD is with a beacon. So you need a beacon launcher fitted on a ship. (High Slot)
However there is a catch. Only directors and CEO's can fit and launch DD beacons.
Beacons can also only be fitted on frigate class vessels. Give one type a specific bonus to fit them.
Oh and you have to wait for the cloaking effects to wear off as you have to target the Titan you are authorizing to fire the weapon.
There you go problem solved
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:04:00 -
[24]
I could write a ten page paper about all the different ways Titans could potentially be redesigned, as opposed to just being nerfed in some lame and unimaginative fashion. You don't have to fly a Titan to be able to comment on this issue, as long as you've been in Titan ops (on the giving or receiving end) tbh.
A stop-gap solution might be to simply limit the amount of Titans that an alliance is allowed to have. This however detracts from the sandbox and should not be a permanent fix. I agree with Tarminic somewhat in that I believe Titans need to be redesigned as more out-and-out combat ships so that alliances will have to put them on the front line in order to realize the ship's full potential. DDD's are fine as-is IMHO, but there are areas where they can be improved as well. For instance: SCRIPTS. Many people have pushed for this at one time or another. Have an AOE script and a focused fire script. The focused fire script must be devastating against capital ships to the point of killing a badly tanked one outright with the Doomsday Ops skill at only 3 or 4. Focused fire also would need to cut down on the recharging time (as in, maybe ten minutes between each shot as opposed to an hour.) Coupled with a reduction in logistics capabilities (but maintaining the jump bridge of course) the potential to annihilate Dreads and Carriers with one or two hits would be enough to either: 1. people deciding against building more Titans in favor of building more Dreads to counter enemy Titans. 2. people putting their focused fire Titans on the front line, hoping for the best, and losing them from time to time against enemy cap fleets.
I think some sort of balance would eventually be struck between those two things that would solve the issue of "too many Titans" being in-game.
Now as for the argument that too many Titans means too many DDD's, I have some suggestions for that as well.
1. increase the time before you can cyno a Titan out from a DDD detonation grid. This will ensure that if you want to multi-DDD someone that you're own Titans will continuously be getting hit themselves. Too many DDD's = dead friendly Titans.
2. take away the ability to warp off-grid, in addition to increasing the time before you can cyno out after detonating a DDD. Reason being the same as point 1's.
or, if you really want to do a hard nerf of DDD's:
3. limit the amount of DDD's that can be detonated on the same grid to one per alliance per hour. I don't really support this idea but there you go.
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Polinus
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: cyboman Somebody do the math... can a Titan withstand a DD from another Titan?
You unable to do subtractions? Well at least you surely has no idea how much HP capital ships have. You need several dozen titans to blow another titan with DDs.
Titans basically means sub capital death.. and absolutely nothing to capital ships.
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Mendolorian Girl
Caldari The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:13:00 -
[26]
Interesting througha bout multiple Titan's nuking another cap fleet.. so I did some dirty maths.
Averageish T2 tanked Dread = 1.9m effective hitpoints Maximum possible doomsday damage = 70313
1900000/70000 = 28 Doomsday's to "insta" a dread.
Carriers are slightly easier at just 1.1m effective hitpoints and would require ONLY 16 doomsdays.
I should mention taht a half decently tanked Titan would only find itself in 50% armor after 28 Doomsdays.
Of course, it's all moot, because 28 doomsday's all going off at once would not just crash the node, it would probably create a blackhole on earth and kill us all :s
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Vladimir Griftin
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Polinus
Originally by: cyboman Somebody do the math... can a Titan withstand a DD from another Titan?
You unable to do subtractions? Well at least you surely has no idea how much HP capital ships have. You need several dozen titans to blow another titan with DDs.
Titans basically means sub capital death.. and absolutely nothing to capital ships.
Originally by: cyboman Somebody do the math... can a Titan withstand a DD from another Titan?
A level 5 DDD will do about 70,000k damage, your average non-buffer tanked Carrier will have about 1 million hitpoints. So 'absolutely nothing' isnt exactly true. It would take 15 Titans to kill a carrier with DD's.
Your average Titan will have what 5 million effective hitpoints?
Having 20 Titans all DD on the same grid would certainly dent the Titans but not enough to worry about.
PS These figures are rough for illustration purposes, but the theory is sound ;)
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Neesa Corrinne
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:16:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Neesa Corrinne on 13/08/2008 15:17:06 I warned against Titans from the very moment I heard about them. I've seen this same trend for bigger and better items in every game I've ever played.
Planetside was a really really fun little infantry/vehicle warfare game for a couple of years... then they decided that BFR's should be released. Gigantic, hulking robots that could kill the biggest tank in the game in two shots and literally stomp infantry flat in one step. These were the ruination of Planetside.
SWG. The game was perfectly fine without PC's being able to play Jedi's. In fact it was still decent when becoming a Jedi was an extraordinarily difficult process. When you could start the game as a Jedi, the game deteriorated quickly.
EVE was perfectly fine without Titans. In fact, EVE was perfectly fine without motherships. Carrier and Dreadnoughts are still being used every single day in EVE for the exact same purposes they were created for... was there really ever any need for a Titan?
One of the first things I told my fellow corp mates when I heard about these ridiculous ships was: These things will be extremely rare for about six months. Then after a year the big alliances will have several of them and they will be used quite frequently, and about two years from now, even dedicated small corporations will be able to field a titan to clear out gate camps with a single button.
These things WILL ruin the EVE that I know and love without some serious changes, and if those changes aren't made soon, then the people who are currently training to fly one will ***** until they turn blue about having their prize taken from them right when they were able to use it.
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hired goon
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne These things WILL ruin the EVE that I know and love without some serious changes, and if those changes aren't made soon, then the people who are currently training to fly one will ***** until they turn blue about having their prize taken from them right when they were able to use it.
Don't worry. If there's one thing ccp loves, it's making changes to things. You're already quite vocal - all you need is to get yourself together a little minority and BoB's your uncle! -omg-
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:30:00 -
[30]
Definition of too many Titans = one more of what my alliance can field.
BTW: isk available has little influence on the number of Titans, what make the difference is : number of trained (and willing) pilots, number of people willing to get the minerals, number of trained builders for the components. All 3 numbers are constantly climbing.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
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