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Curious Jones asks a question: Is there a counter to bumping?

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Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:21:00 - [31] Eve with realistic bumbing mechanics I dunno. I kinda like the ones we have.
Doctor Remulak	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:45:00 - [32] Let's be honest here. Bumping is a stupid mechanic. Unrealistic and not really in line with the rest of the game-play. There is not counter. In high-sec, a neutral bumper locks you down for your enemies to kill at their leisure. That being said, there is no real way CCP can ever fix it. Adding damage would lead to too many exploits. Realistic physics would make the game near unplayable. IMO the best fix to this (and many other problem) would simply be to get rid of alts. At least they would have to get an actual person to bump you, rather than log on with their trash-alt.
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately. What is an effective countermeasure to bumping? Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle. Brains? Try using them. Align and warp away or don't put yourself into the position where bumping will hurt you.
Dai'nin Roi'nin Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:03:00 - [34] Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 21/08/2008 13:45:14 So short answer is no, hmm, smelling a bit of a flaw there in all the "it's a legitimate tactic". Bumping is only a counter to station/gate huggers and people hiding in pos' (if you have the password) so where is the problem? And of course per the OP, warping. Durrr.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:16:00 - [35] Originally by: FlameGlow Edited by: FlameGlow on 21/08/2008 13:50:32 Originally by: Wil Smithx An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation. In theory E=mv^2 so bumping into something 1000 times heavier(assuming you're not going SPLAT on its windshield and transferring 100% energy) would make it move at 1/30 of your speed. IRL going SPLAT(with some damage to windshield ) is more likely then making it move at all. You fail at attempting to be clever... E=mvc^2 is only used for objects aproaching the speed of light (300Mm/s) which 6km/s is a long way from reaching. For collisions of this speed we use the standard formula p=mv because its a viable model and doesn't require many pages of calculation. What of course hasn't been taken into account is the anti bump ****zle we have in our ships which seem to have been mentally overpowered and provide way more bump strength than is available. In fact I have had a ship moving faster than the speed of light when bouncing off a planet, didn't seem that fast...
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Just add proper collision damage in the game. Then you'll find me parked in a fenrir outside jita 4-4 watching with delight as hundreds of people splat like flies on the side of my ship. "Proper" collision would reduce the life expectancy of your Fenrir outside of Jita 4-4 to about 15 milliseconds. As someone else pointed out, they would not "splat like flies". Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds?
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Assisted Suicide Mercenaries	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:25:00 - [37] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds? That's a crap example. Ever seen the damage that is caused to a bus when they hit a bicycle?
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds? That's a crap example. Ever seen the damage that is caused to a bus when they hit a bicycle? Yes
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:53:00 - [39] I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatÆs conserved dammit!
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds? That's a crap example. Ever seen the damage that is caused to a bus when they hit a bicycle? Contrary to what you think, relative mass is very unimportant here. A bicycle does very little damage to a bus not because the bus is so much bigger, but because a bicycle has very low kinetic energy.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Gabriel Karade I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatÆs conserved dammit! Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both.
Kailey Takar	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:29:00 - [42] Did anyone else say this: Don't undock?!? Amiright?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:47:00 - [43] i guess the people shouting 'nono its fine' have missed out on some of eve's greatest annoyances so far, getting stuck on something trivially small in a cap ><
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:54:00 - [44] You can counter bumping by using some tricky aligning and MWD activations, and essentailly counter bump whats hitting you. Ive counter-bumped an inty 35km out using my dominix in this fashion
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:55:00 - [45] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Gabriel Karade I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatÆs conserved dammit! Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both. Er, yes it does: Impulse (J) = Mv - Mu (v = object velocity after, u = object velocity before, J = int{Fdt} ) Once you have the forces involved you can look at the yield strength of the materials involved and.... (sure you get the point)
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Gabriel Karade I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatÆs conserved dammit! Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both. Er, yes it does: Impulse (J) = Mv - Mu (v = object velocity after, u = object velocity before, J = int{Fdt} ) Once you have the forces involved you can look at the yield strength of the materials involved and.... (sure you get the point) That's almost as backwards as using KE for collisions, tbh.
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:26:00 - [47] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto of course, use your brain. Stay aligned and warp out before anyone has the chance to bump. Watch scanner and get away before anyone has a chance to bump. Cloak and stay cloaked before anyone has a chance to bump etc... Use a scout to see if someone is there to bump you off station. Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter. In other words, you're saying there is no counter to bumping. Avoiding it isn't a counter.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:09:00 - [48] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Gabriel Karade I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatÆs conserved dammit! Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both. Er, yes it does: Impulse (J) = Mv - Mu (v = object velocity after, u = object velocity before, J = int{Fdt} ) Once you have the forces involved you can look at the yield strength of the materials involved and.... (sure you get the point) That's almost as backwards as using KE for collisions, tbh. KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:15:00 - [49] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51 Originally by: Gabriel Karade KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong. KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:27:00 - [50] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51 Originally by: Gabriel Karade KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong. KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics. But of course, in a perfectly elastic collision no-one really cares if you have the KE equivalent to a small Nuke... Anyhow, proper collisions would be cool, but with so many pitfalls re. balance, probably never going to happen... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51 Originally by: Gabriel Karade KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong. KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics. But of course, in a perfectly elastic collision no-one really cares if you have the KE equivalent to a small Nuke... Anyhow, proper collisions would be cool, but with so many pitfalls re. balance, probably never going to happen... An alt in a tech1 frigate with a microwarpdrive would probably be the most frequently used weapon in the game if we had proper collision. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:45:00 - [52] I thought bumping WAS the counter to station huggers? --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:45:00 - [53] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51 Originally by: Gabriel Karade KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong. KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics. But of course, in a perfectly elastic collision no-one really cares if you have the KE equivalent to a small Nuke... Anyhow, proper collisions would be cool, but with so many pitfalls re. balance, probably never going to happen... An alt in a tech1 frigate with a microwarpdrive would probably be the most frequently used weapon in the game if we had proper collision. For balance reasons you'd probably use some kind of simple logarithmic function of ships mass, so that you see greatly diminishing returns, i.e. you want to cause big damage you need to use something similarly sized. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Assisted Suicide Mercenaries	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:47:00 - [54] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey An alt in a tech1 frigate with a microwarpdrive would probably be the most frequently used weapon in the game if we had proper collision. You'd have to fit stuff like reinforced bulkheads and armour plates to get the most impact possible. and don't forget that shields will have some part to play about how much damage it's going to cause.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:22:00 - [55] You could also argue that, a ship using MWD 'trickery' doesn't have the same 'real' kinetic energy and momentum; the huge speed increase over that attainable with afterburners implies something exotic. Or in a 'fluff' way: "collision causes the field to collapse, causing the ship to revert to its real mass/velocity state" i.e - your 6 km/sec 'manned missile' reverts to a 500 m/sec 'manned missile' and does, to use the phrase, get squashed on the windshield like a bug... But even overcomming that, you'd still have to consider the CONCORD thinking on the matter.... "hmm are we supposed to shoot pilot A, or do we shoot pilot B?" -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:34:00 - [56] i know it would be less "realistic", but what if all player ships just passed through each other like they did with jetcans? you used to be able to lockdown a large ship by dropping cans around them, which CCP nerfed... and yet frigates can still bump ships for the same effect. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
RedMenace Reid	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:44:00 - [57] Originally by: Alora Venoda i know it would be less "realistic", but what if all player ships just passed through each other like they did with jetcans? you used to be able to lockdown a large ship by dropping cans around them, which CCP nerfed... and yet frigates can still bump ships for the same effect. i think something like this would make the tracking calculation shit itself. as the turrets track to the center of the ship, so if u wennt, inside of a ship, its going to have crazy effects on the tracking while it tries to figure out what turret to aim, and doing the tracking math. Again the counter to bumping is using your MWD to increase your Mass at the right time, and having a little bit of luck and skill.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Gabriel Karade You could also argue that, a ship using MWD 'trickery' doesn't have the same 'real' kinetic energy and momentum; the huge speed increase over that attainable with afterburners implies something exotic. Or in a 'fluff' way: "collision causes the field to collapse, causing the ship to revert to its real mass/velocity state" i.e - your 6 km/sec 'manned missile' reverts to a 500 m/sec 'manned missile' and does, to use the phrase, get squashed on the windshield like a bug... But even overcomming that, you'd still have to consider the CONCORD thinking on the matter.... "hmm are we supposed to shoot pilot A, or do we shoot pilot B?" Pretty unlikely that even at such a relatively low speed it would get squashed like a bug. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:52:00 - [59] Originally by: RedMenace Reid Originally by: Alora Venoda i know it would be less "realistic", but what if all player ships just passed through each other like they did with jetcans? you used to be able to lockdown a large ship by dropping cans around them, which CCP nerfed... and yet frigates can still bump ships for the same effect. i think something like this would make the tracking calculation shit itself. as the turrets track to the center of the ship, so if u wennt, inside of a ship, its going to have crazy effects on the tracking while it tries to figure out what turret to aim, and doing the tracking math. Again the counter to bumping is using your MWD to increase your Mass at the right time, and having a little bit of luck and skill. yeah, i have noticed guns always miss if you are too close, so that your distance is zero. although i am sure they can adjust the maths on it... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.21 23:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Roc Wieler The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games. THIS. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.

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