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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
   |
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:31:00 -
[1]
Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:31:00 -
[2]
Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle. |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:33:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 21/08/2008 13:33:43
Apart from incorporating decent physics into EVE... No.
Destroy the bumper I guess.
Never really understood why a battleship weighing tens of thousands of ton's can be bumped around by a few hundred tons of shuttle.
Another thing that contributes to why all EVE ships have no sense of scale. |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:33:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 21/08/2008 13:33:43
Apart from incorporating decent physics into EVE... No.
Destroy the bumper I guess.
Never really understood why a battleship weighing tens of thousands of ton's can be bumped around by a few hundred tons of shuttle.
Another thing that contributes to why all EVE ships have no sense of scale. |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:40:00 -
[5]
of course, use your brain.
Stay aligned and warp out before anyone has the chance to bump. Watch scanner and get away before anyone has a chance to bump. Cloak and stay cloaked before anyone has a chance to bump etc... Use a scout to see if someone is there to bump you off station. Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter. |
Wil Smithx
Minmatar
Suns Of Korhal
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:41:00 -
[6]
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 21/08/2008 13:45:14
So short answer is no, hmm, smelling a bit of a flaw there in all the "it's a legitimate tactic".
Logically, game-play sense and other.
Never really thought about it before.
 Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter.
All fine and dandy if it wasn't the counter for "getting into battle".
But when you're in abttle and the advesary resorts to such manners(for whatever reason), it becomes an issue. |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
IMO, something travelling that fast hitting something that big should fold in half on impact. Not just bounce off. Slow collisions okay, but 6km/s, jeez. |
Major PewPew
The Dark Horses
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:47:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Major PewPew on 21/08/2008 13:49:09
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle.
Ironic...but im gunna say nano. Keep moving and you wont get bumped. Move fast enough, and nothing can bump you.
And Jones, i agree with you. In a game where they're looking for balance in every aspect of the game, everyone says "theres a counter for everything, thats your balance"...wheres the balance/counter to bumping? Webs? I cant rly say that's sufficient enough. |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
All fine and dandy if it wasn't the counter for "getting into battle".
You are "getting into battle," as soon as you log into the game. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 21/08/2008 13:50:32
Originally by: Wil Smithx
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
In theory E=mv^2 so bumping into something 1000 times heavier(assuming you're not going *SPLAT* on its windshield and transferring 100% energy) would make it move at 1/30 of your speed.
IRL going *SPLAT*(with some damage to windshield  ) is more likely then making it move at all. |
Glach Duwat
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:51:00 -
[12]
Move?
Bumping anything smaller than a battle cruiser is somewhat tough.
|
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 13:52:48
Guns? Webs? Neuts?
The only issue is that in high-sec bumping doesn't cause aggro, but you can't really fix that.
Well, you can. Remove concord  |
Gojyu
Ever Flow
HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Wil Smithx
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
IMO, something travelling that fast hitting something that big should fold in half on impact. Not just bounce off. Slow collisions okay, but 6km/s, jeez.
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:14:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:15:13
Originally by: Gojyu
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons
Basically, this.
People forget (or don't know) how to calculate kinetic energy.
A 10km/s interceptor has about 50-100 TJ of kinetic energy, or the rough equalivent of the energy released in a small (say, Hiroshima) nuclear warhead, and overheated interceptors easily reach that.
It is a projectile which would, generally, produce a huge hole in your ship, either crippling or just killing it. If we consider that the average battleship has the equivalent armour of 2 x 1600mm steel plates, well, we're talking about punching a hole in one side and utterly destroying everything on the way, and then probably leaving a nice exit hole too
Think of your bumping interceptor as a large caliber, very heavy and insanely fast AP round. That'd be fairly realistic.
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
of course, use your brain.
Stay aligned and warp out before anyone has the chance to bump. Watch scanner and get away before anyone has a chance to bump. Cloak and stay cloaked before anyone has a chance to bump etc... Use a scout to see if someone is there to bump you off station. Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter.
You are obviously an idiot! |
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:15:13
Originally by: Gojyu
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons
Basically, this.
People forget (or don't know) how to calculate kinetic energy.
A 10km/s interceptor has about 50-100 TJ of kinetic energy, or the rough equalivent of the energy released in a small (say, Hiroshima) nuclear warhead, and overheated interceptors easily reach that.
It is a projectile which would, generally, produce a huge hole in your ship, either crippling or just killing it. If we consider that the average battleship has the equivalent armour of 2 x 1600mm steel plates, well, we're talking about punching a hole in one side and utterly destroying everything on the way, and then probably leaving a nice exit hole too
Think of your bumping interceptor as a large caliber, very heavy and insanely fast AP round. That'd be fairly realistic.
The bumping in EvE is obviously explained by the shields of each ship, however EvE is made in such a way that even when your shields down, ships still act the same as if they were on and impenetrable.....
And while a shuttle might do a whole in a Carrier, if you really take the scale to heart you'd see it will maybe destroy a small section of the ship, not the entire ship or somesuch.. in a case of smaller ships idk, the whole thing is just weird..
By the same loging make ships splat onto stations and actually be able to hit and get blown up when warping through planet, moving onto an asteroid, etc... |
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Assisted Suicide Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:30:00 -
[18]
Just add proper collision damage in the game. Then you'll find me parked in a fenrir outside jita 4-4 watching with delight as hundreds of people splat like flies on the side of my ship. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 21/08/2008 14:31:37
Originally by: Gojyu
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Wil Smithx
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
IMO, something travelling that fast hitting something that big should fold in half on impact. Not just bounce off. Slow collisions okay, but 6km/s, jeez.
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons
Not that much damage, I mean look at rails' ammo, large is 425mm? diameter and about 3 times the length, that's 0.7 m^3, taking plutonium it weights about 14 tons, hits at speeds over 250 km/s and still won't one-shot pretty much anything.
|
Mordican
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:33:00 -
[20]
Just remember that, according to CCP, a Nyx does not bump, it takes out stations! |
Roc Wieler
Freeform Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:42:00 -
[21]
The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:45:14
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:43:53
Originally by: FlameGlow
Not that much damage, I mean look at rails' ammo, large is 425mm? diameter and about 3 times the length, that's 0.7 m^3, taking plutonium it weights about 14 tons, hits at speeds over 250 km/s and still won't one-shot pretty much anything.
Well, a projectile weighting 15 tons and going over 250km/s would most likely one-shot the life on earth (if not the planet itself). We're talking about 437.000.000 TJ, or something roughly the equivalent of a warhead with the explosive force of 1,046,650 megatons (constrast that to our biggest nuclear warheads which are really devastating at a mere 50 megatons).
Physics says that targeting the earth and hitting just F1 would obliterate all life on it, if not killing the planet itself. A full volley of 450mm rails would obliterate any planet.
|
Helios III
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Helios III on 21/08/2008 14:49:52
Yes, there is a counter to bumping:
Do a Barrel Roll. |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:59:00 -
[24]
If you're not station hugging and aren't in empire you could try a smartbomb or 8. Always a fun surprise for anything smaller than a cruiser zooming in for a bump.
|
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Assisted Suicide Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:01:00 -
[25]
I used to go out with a girl who's nickname was Clair Bear. Uncanny! |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Major PewPew
Ironic...but im gunna say nano.
Aye, indeed ironic, a bit sad too
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
All fine and dandy if it wasn't the counter for "getting into battle".
You are "getting into battle," as soon as you log into the game.
Bullcrap cop-out reason, overused and not needed. You know exactly what i meant.
Originally by: Glach Duwat
Move?
Bumping anything smaller than a battle cruiser is somewhat tough.
Exactly, hensh the battleship trying to get away from battle. I mean, ofcourse, a battle where there are no WCS, stabs, whatnot, jiggyjoos.
Originally by: Roc Wieler
The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games.
Never have, never will. If someone wants to fight me, i'll fight, or run away if i know i'll loose.
But i expect to get away according to basic game logics and rules. If you have a web and scram and jingyjoos on, ok, you got me. If you don't, are guntooting overburning maniac with only bumping as a use, not cool. |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:08:00 -
[27]
Remove the bumping mechanic and make it impossible to use a jump gate or dock if scrammed.
SKUNK
|
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:08:00 -
[28]
So, sheriff, how about making said interceptors pierce your sub-capital ship and kill it (together with killing and podding themselves in the process)?
That's rather reasonable
But anyway, someone bumping you can get webbed/neuted/shot at and there, you've countered it. If you don't want to agress people, naturally, you cannot counter them but oh well.
The minor issue with high-sec bumping can simply be solved with removing Concord and all is well |
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 21/08/2008 13:45:14
So short answer is no, hmm, smelling a bit of a flaw there in all the "it's a legitimate tactic".
Bumping is only a counter to station/gate huggers and people hiding in pos' (if you have the password) so where is the problem? |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:15:00 -
[30]
The best counter to bump would be to not be where the bumper is passing..... |
Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:21:00 -
[31]
Eve with realistic bumbing mechanics
I dunno. I kinda like the ones we have.
|
Doctor Remulak
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:45:00 -
[32]
Let's be honest here. Bumping is a stupid mechanic. Unrealistic and not really in line with the rest of the game-play. There is not counter. In high-sec, a neutral bumper locks you down for your enemies to kill at their leisure.
That being said, there is no real way CCP can ever fix it. Adding damage would lead to too many exploits. Realistic physics would make the game near unplayable.
IMO the best fix to this (and many other problem) would simply be to get rid of alts. At least they would have to get an actual person to bump you, rather than log on with their trash-alt. |
Ga'len
Neo Spartans
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:52:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle.
Brains? Try using them.
Align and warp away or don't put yourself into the position where bumping will hurt you.
|
Dai'nin Roi'nin
Absinthe Brothers Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:03:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 21/08/2008 13:45:14
So short answer is no, hmm, smelling a bit of a flaw there in all the "it's a legitimate tactic".
Bumping is only a counter to station/gate huggers and people hiding in pos' (if you have the password) so where is the problem?
And of course per the OP, warping. Durrr. |
Wil Smithx
Minmatar
Suns Of Korhal
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Edited by: FlameGlow on 21/08/2008 13:50:32
Originally by: Wil Smithx
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
In theory E=mv^2 so bumping into something 1000 times heavier(assuming you're not going *SPLAT* on its windshield and transferring 100% energy) would make it move at 1/30 of your speed.
IRL going *SPLAT*(with some damage to windshield ) is more likely then making it move at all.
You fail at attempting to be clever...
E=mvc^2 is only used for objects aproaching the speed of light (300Mm/s) which 6km/s is a long way from reaching.
For collisions of this speed we use the standard formula p=mv because its a viable model and doesn't require many pages of calculation.
What of course hasn't been taken into account is the anti bump ****zle we have in our ships which seem to have been mentally overpowered and provide way more bump strength than is available.
In fact I have had a ship moving faster than the speed of light when bouncing off a planet, didn't seem that fast... |
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Rhatar Khurin
Just add proper collision damage in the game. Then you'll find me parked in a fenrir outside jita 4-4 watching with delight as hundreds of people splat like flies on the side of my ship.
"Proper" collision would reduce the life expectancy of your Fenrir outside of Jita 4-4 to about 15 milliseconds.
As someone else pointed out, they would not "splat like flies".
Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds? |
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Assisted Suicide Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds?
That's a crap example. Ever seen the damage that is caused to a bus when they hit a bicycle? |
Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rhatar Khurin
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds?
That's a crap example. Ever seen the damage that is caused to a bus when they hit a bicycle?
Yes |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:53:00 -
[39]
I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatĘs conserved dammit!  |
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:11:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Rhatar Khurin
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Ever seen the kind of damage that large ocean-going vessels do when they collide with something even at very low speeds?
That's a crap example. Ever seen the damage that is caused to a bus when they hit a bicycle?
Contrary to what you think, relative mass is very unimportant here.
A bicycle does very little damage to a bus not because the bus is so much bigger, but because a bicycle has very low kinetic energy.
|
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatĘs conserved dammit!
Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D
If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both.
|
Kailey Takar
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:29:00 -
[42]
Did anyone else say this:
Don't undock?!?
Amiright?
|
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:47:00 -
[43]
i guess the people shouting 'nono its fine' have missed out on some of eve's greatest annoyances so far, getting stuck on something trivially small in a cap >< |
Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:54:00 -
[44]
You can counter bumping by using some tricky aligning and MWD activations, and essentailly counter bump whats hitting you. Ive counter-bumped an inty 35km out using my dominix in this fashion |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatĘs conserved dammit!
Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D
If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both.
Er, yes it does: Impulse (J) = Mv - Mu (v = object velocity after, u = object velocity before, J = int{Fdt} )
Once you have the forces involved you can look at the yield strength of the materials involved and.... (sure you get the point) |
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:14:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatĘs conserved dammit!
Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D
If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both.
Er, yes it does: Impulse (J) = Mv - Mu (v = object velocity after, u = object velocity before, J = int{Fdt} )
Once you have the forces involved you can look at the yield strength of the materials involved and.... (sure you get the point)
That's almost as backwards as using KE for collisions, tbh. |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Federation Fleet
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
of course, use your brain.
Stay aligned and warp out before anyone has the chance to bump. Watch scanner and get away before anyone has a chance to bump. Cloak and stay cloaked before anyone has a chance to bump etc... Use a scout to see if someone is there to bump you off station. Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter.
In other words, you're saying there is no counter to bumping. Avoiding it isn't a counter.
|
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I always cringe when I see people using kinetic energy to describe 'collisions'. It's momentum thatĘs conserved dammit!
Which is nice and all, but momentum doesn't tell us a whole lot about the havoc that would be wreaked. Kinetic energy does. :D
If we're just talking about the final velocity of two masses colliding with each other, then I guess we could stick with momentum, but a lot of this conversation has been about the fact that an interceptor colliding with a battleship would likely annihilate them both.
Er, yes it does: Impulse (J) = Mv - Mu (v = object velocity after, u = object velocity before, J = int{Fdt} )
Once you have the forces involved you can look at the yield strength of the materials involved and.... (sure you get the point)
That's almost as backwards as using KE for collisions, tbh.
KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong. 
--------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:15:00 -
[49]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong.
KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics.
---------------
Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:27:00 -
[50]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong.
KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics.
But of course, in a perfectly elastic collision no-one really cares if you have the KE equivalent to a small Nuke...
Anyhow, proper collisions would be cool, but with so many pitfalls re. balance, probably never going to happen...
--------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:29:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong.
KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics.
But of course, in a perfectly elastic collision no-one really cares if you have the KE equivalent to a small Nuke...
Anyhow, proper collisions would be cool, but with so many pitfalls re. balance, probably never going to happen...
An alt in a tech1 frigate with a microwarpdrive would probably be the most frequently used weapon in the game if we had proper collision.
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Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:45:00 -
[52]
I thought bumping WAS the counter to station huggers?
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Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 19:15:51
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
KE isn't conserved in collisions, which is where most people go wrong.
KE actually is preserved in a perfectly elastic collision. Doesn't exist IRL, of course, but Eve obviously doesn't use RL physics.
But of course, in a perfectly elastic collision no-one really cares if you have the KE equivalent to a small Nuke...
Anyhow, proper collisions would be cool, but with so many pitfalls re. balance, probably never going to happen...
An alt in a tech1 frigate with a microwarpdrive would probably be the most frequently used weapon in the game if we had proper collision.
For balance reasons you'd probably use some kind of simple logarithmic function of ships mass, so that you see greatly diminishing returns, i.e. you want to cause *big* damage you need to use something similarly sized.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Assisted Suicide Mercenaries
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
An alt in a tech1 frigate with a microwarpdrive would probably be the most frequently used weapon in the game if we had proper collision.
You'd have to fit stuff like reinforced bulkheads and armour plates to get the most impact possible. and don't forget that shields will have some part to play about how much damage it's going to cause.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:22:00 -
[55]
You could also argue that, a ship using MWD 'trickery' doesn't have the same 'real' kinetic energy and momentum; the huge speed increase over that attainable with afterburners implies something exotic.
Or in a 'fluff' way:
"collision causes the field to collapse, causing the ship to revert to its real mass/velocity state"
i.e - your 6 km/sec 'manned missile' reverts to a 500 m/sec 'manned missile' and does, to use the phrase, get squashed on the windshield like a bug...
But even overcomming that, you'd still have to consider the CONCORD thinking on the matter.... "hmm are we supposed to shoot pilot A, or do we shoot pilot B?"
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Alora Venoda
GalTech
Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:34:00 -
[56]
i know it would be less "realistic", but what if all player ships just passed through each other like they did with jetcans? you used to be able to lockdown a large ship by dropping cans around them, which CCP nerfed... and yet frigates can still bump ships for the same effect.
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Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
RedMenace Reid
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Alora Venoda
i know it would be less "realistic", but what if all player ships just passed through each other like they did with jetcans? you used to be able to lockdown a large ship by dropping cans around them, which CCP nerfed... and yet frigates can still bump ships for the same effect.
i think something like this would make the tracking calculation shit itself. as the turrets track to the center of the ship, so if u wennt, inside of a ship, its going to have crazy effects on the tracking while it tries to figure out what turret to aim, and doing the tracking math.
Again the counter to bumping is using your MWD to increase your Mass at the right time, and having a little bit of luck and skill.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:46:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
You could also argue that, a ship using MWD 'trickery' doesn't have the same 'real' kinetic energy and momentum; the huge speed increase over that attainable with afterburners implies something exotic.
Or in a 'fluff' way:
"collision causes the field to collapse, causing the ship to revert to its real mass/velocity state"
i.e - your 6 km/sec 'manned missile' reverts to a 500 m/sec 'manned missile' and does, to use the phrase, get squashed on the windshield like a bug...
But even overcomming that, you'd still have to consider the CONCORD thinking on the matter.... "hmm are we supposed to shoot pilot A, or do we shoot pilot B?"
Pretty unlikely that even at such a relatively low speed it would get squashed like a bug.
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Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Alora Venoda
GalTech
Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:52:00 -
[59]
Originally by: RedMenace Reid
Originally by: Alora Venoda
i know it would be less "realistic", but what if all player ships just passed through each other like they did with jetcans? you used to be able to lockdown a large ship by dropping cans around them, which CCP nerfed... and yet frigates can still bump ships for the same effect.
i think something like this would make the tracking calculation shit itself. as the turrets track to the center of the ship, so if u wennt, inside of a ship, its going to have crazy effects on the tracking while it tries to figure out what turret to aim, and doing the tracking math.
Again the counter to bumping is using your MWD to increase your Mass at the right time, and having a little bit of luck and skill.
yeah, i have noticed guns always miss if you are too close, so that your distance is zero. although i am sure they can adjust the maths on it...
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Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.21 23:01:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Roc Wieler
The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games.
THIS.
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
yosef kaldhu
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.08.21 23:40:00 -
[61]
From what i can see with bumping the ships arent actually colliding with each other it is more of a case of the computers auto piloting the ships away from the other to prevent collisions and if you look at it this way the weight of the ships and such doesnt effect the bump more the speed and size (have to move more evasivly to dodge a high speed frigate then with a slow cruiser and such)
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.08.22 00:23:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dristra
Originally by: Roc Wieler
The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games.
THIS.
No, not THAT. Bumping is used to prevent warp entry. Period. It happens in belts, in missions, at gates, anywhere ships are.
If you "need" it to prevent victims from re-docking that doesn't mean all the other situations just go away. |
Garrick Packard
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Posted - 2008.08.22 02:18:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
You fail at attempting to be clever...
E=mvc^2 is only used for objects aproaching the speed of light (300Mm/s) which 6km/s is a long way from reaching.
You fail at correcting the fail.
E = mv^2 is (almost) the correct formula for Kinetic Energy. it has little to do with E = mc^2.
The correct KE formula is E = 1/2 mv^2
If collisions in Eve are meant to be elastic, Kinetic Energy should be conserved. At the moment they are apparently super-elastic.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.08.22 02:20:00 -
[64]
keep in mind that a mwd adds 1/2 of the mass of the hull it is trying to move... a ceptor has about 1.5m, cruiser 15m, battleship 150m
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RedFef
Minmatar
Judicial Blade
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Posted - 2008.08.22 02:26:00 -
[65]
As amazingly fun and interesting (Really) the topic is...
I'm afraid to take the board your all standing on out from under you. The ships themselves never touch. What happens is the computers/podpilots move the ships to avoid a collision.
/thread.
But, if they ever did hit, you would have to remeber the shield factor of both parties, and if the shields are actually 'bubbles' around the ship or 'form fitting' to the ship, if it is a bubble the ships will slide away from one another, if it is form fitting... then every ship to ship contact will have a different result.
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