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CCP, as a parting gift, let me explain a few things to you.

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Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:15:00 - [31] Just because a player wasn't here since beta, doesn't mean they aren't in for the long-term. New players might stick with this game just as long - they outnumber the 'vets' and thus, proportionally deserve more attention. San Matari Official forums
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Glengrant Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:14:04 Originally by: Rafilialindal I'd just like to say, I can see where the OP is coming from. After putting so much time and effort into something like eve..wouldn't it be strange not to feel angry at ccp? Err - why exactly? Or roughly? Or anything guessable hinted at? Just like the OP you fail to explain what it is that annoys you. I'm not saying CCP is a saintly bunch of unfailing angels who never make mistakes. But really - what's the terrible thing that would make it strange not to feel angry at them? I'm not feeling angry yet and I fell I'm missing out on something here. ;-) Please enlighten me. I know that the usual suspects are: * Some nerf or other (aka they plugged a design hole that wasn't supposed to be there from the beginning) * lag (aka I want want want to be in Jita all the time, or our blob and their blob didnt work out so well, even though big blob is now hundreds instead of tens) * didn't implement somebodies pet feature yet * eve too harsh (aka I got ganked) * eve not harsh enough (aka didn't find somebody I could gank right away) * CCP only caters to pvpers * CCP only caters to carebears * CCP screws noobs * CCP screws veterans * fresh out of the oven: Chribbas Veldnaught I don't see a reason to really get angry about any of this. And as many complaints actually contradict each other we really need more specifics. Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Vincent Gaines Avis de Captura	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Correct, his previous name was uhm... "Solon" or something like that. Apart from that, don't you find it odd that he went "inactive" for a long time while still being in charge of a corp (whcih had enough able members to not tolerate an inactive leader) in ISS and then suddenly come back after a certain other alliance/character went down in flames? By what I remember (I was in Praxis at the time) Gasman stole about 4 bil (which was a lot at the time) then Lake's corp-bought Chimera (which we didn't know was corp bought) was ganked by MoM, including the billions in minerals he was jump hauling to empire, he then used corp funds to buy another, then did his disappearing act, all the good ISS people went to different corps/alliances. What's the rest of the story, I'm actually curious-after Praxis split I went inactive for a while (damn Army vacation)
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:24:00 - [34] Can I haz ur stuff? Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:26:00 - [35] Try to remember whom you rented that station from, it'll give you a clue. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Taex	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:27:00 - [36] Edited by: Taex on 27/08/2008 14:28:00 Truth. I'm a 3 year vet that canceled both accounts weeks ago. I think this one goes inactive sometime today actually. Three years was more than enough waiting for things to turn around. Instead they run the game into the ground and turn it into blobbing hello kitty online while all the bugs and problems remain. Edit: I just checked, this account (alt) has two days left. I haven't logged in for weeks.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:28:00 - [37] Edited by: Victor Kruger on 27/08/2008 14:29:38 I'm actually happy to see CCP gradually get rid of the good ole happy buddy relationship with the older players. This behaviour has brought nothing but trouble into the game (T20 incident, anyone). And from what I've seen the long-term players don't have more loyalty towards CCP than fresh players. They were loyal as long as they got what they wanted. Once these old walls are torn down, CCP can hopefully maintain a friendly, but professional distance to their playerbase and provide a service that is bought for its quality and not because some favors were played. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Glengrant Hm- let's see: 0.0 - still there, still no law unless you enforce it yourself High sec - concord still comes after your ship's been wrecked low sec - still a pirate infested mess carebears fear to go to war decs - also still there Payout for insurance is still the same - but now many ships are T2 where payout is a joke compared to market value of ship (and let's not go into t2 mods) - so this part has become harsher actually Is pvp suddenly consensual only - nope -0.0 has changed significantly with the introduction of sov and player owned structures. -High sec penalties for killing ships has been greatly increased (and will be further increased according to a dev blog). -Low sec is a lot safer now as it was in the past. Sentry guns have been buffed several times. -War decs now cost money. -Base insurance was a later addition (when you blew your ship up back in the day and you did not buy insurance then you got no isk at all). PvP has become a lot more consensual due to the above changes... --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:35:00 - [39] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you. And you can neither explain nor hint what you mean because ....? --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
london Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:41:00 - [40] Edited by: london on 27/08/2008 14:42:39 This post annoys me. Mr. Zhada assumes too much-- it's trite speculation (at best) to think you know anything about CCP's business strategy. And the thought that they are trying to sink Eve is laughable. Yeah, CCP is really just here for short term gain given all the work and expansion the game has received and will be receiving. (Trinity, FW, Ambulation, etc...) I've been playing this game on and off since it came out in 2003, and I agree that sometime you get burned out from the same thing. The one thing that Eve isn't is stale. Every time they come out with new content or function, It always brings me back and keeps things fresh. It's an ever changing and evolving game, if your so sick of it... take a break! You will probably be back in less time than you think. Cheers.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:43:00 - [41] I've been playing since late 2005. I'm not sure where my account falls on the scale of long-term playability, but I happen to agree with most of the changes CCP has executed since the inception of my main character. What I think CCP is trying to accomplish is curb and tone down the malicious and ill intents of certain players which are becoming more and more prevalent as the game grows. Yes, the mechanics that allow these activities have always been there. But as the playerbase grows the problems are exacerbated by the few that insist is their given right to exploit them. The moral of the story is this game will continue to fine-tune its "quirks" but in the end Eve will also continue to offer what it has been offering since its beginning. There will always be unconsensual PVP. And there will always be a highly competitive industry. There will always be plenty of PVE activities. It will always have 100% player-controlled (or not) space. And there will probably always be safer empire space. In the end Eve will continue to be Eve at its core. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Rafilialindal Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:53:00 - [42] To Glengrant: Many people playing online games have a specific vision for said game. They see the game moving in a certain direction, they would like to see certain things happen. When the reality of the game doesn't fit this mold the player constructs..and when this goes on for a number of years..the player gets a bit jaded. Now, I wasn't really refering to any one point in particular, I actually like the direction the game is headed in, I was just sympothising with the OP. As for specifics about the OPs problems with eve..all I can say is re-read the first post..
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you. And you can neither explain nor hint what you mean because ....? If you actually read the whole OP you should be able to correlate it from that. but I'll help you out using bulletpoints; - EVE's success come from being a niche game, which attracts niche players. It certainly never was a coding masterpiece - since those niche players applauded CCP's daring move by being niche, combined with the fact that there really weren't any other MMO's that compared, they stuck to it - even to a point where they simply looked away from the lacking game design, bugs, CCP's player account interferences and overal bad game support (mind you, not talking about the GM'S) like failing forums, years outdated web databases and part of the website that simply didn't work for more than 2 years. - any other MMO would have gotten burned to the ground, trampled on and brushed aside because of those problems. - EVE didn't because we loved the game and what it stood for, it's called loyalty and sharing a vision. Apart from still not having any other realistic MMO option - CCP's focus has shifted from EVE to the new MMO, this is logical and to be expected. this means that thei goals shifts from long term, to short term - because of that they try to keep thing running without needing too many resources - also; to fund the new MMO they're trying to make as much cash as possible short term - which means that they don't care what they have to do to make this happen, as they don't have long term plans anymore. if that means they have to rename Jita to Stormwind, give everyone a free MiniVagabond that flies around with you or just paint all the planets pink to try to attract more female players, they'll do it. - I refuse to pay and play an MMO if the company that makes it thinks short term and (even worse) tramples on the old values, ideas and game concepts to do so I'm not talking about nerfs (as stated, I'm in favor of the nano nerf), I'm not talking about one thing. What I AM talking about is the shift in thinking, game concept and priorities that have been happening within CCP. Do I make any sense now :)
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:55:00 - [44] Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:55:45 Originally by: Shevar -0.0 has changed significantly with the introduction of sov and player owned structures. Granted. They made space conquerable. IMHO a good change - but it certainly is a big change. Agreed. Originally by: Shevar -High sec penalties for killing ships has been greatly increased (and will be further increased according to a dev blog). Not changing the overall game at all. In the olden days killing ships in high sec was extremely rare. War decs and more recently suicide ganks got out of hand. The "changes" just brought things back to where they used to be. making wars more expensive is basically just inflation compensation. Originally by: Shevar -Low sec is a lot safer now as it was in the past. Sentry guns have been buffed several times. That and WT0 makes a bit of difference - but not much. It was mostly noobs that got ganked in low sec in the beginning and it's mostly noobs that get ganked in ÷ow sec now. Originally by: Shevar -War decs now cost money. If they didn't in the first few weeks/months I actually forgot about it. Certainly no recent change. As closer to the fabled early days as makes no difference. And I hope you agree that there has to be some cost to getting a war licence in empire - otherwise high sec is joke. Originally by: Shevar -Base insurance was a later addition (when you blew your ship up back in the day and you did not buy insurance then you got no isk at all). Right - but, again - that was changed fairly early. Hardly something that could be used as an argument for slippery slope in more recent years. And 40% of ship base price still means that you have to refinance 70+% (modules not being insured) of what you just lost. Originally by: Shevar PvP has become a lot more consensual due to the above changes... Not true. If a carebear gets ganked and looses his ship with tens of millions in cargo he won't really care that he gets a couple hundred k as base in surance for his indu, does he? And for somebody flying a T2 ship with T2 equipment even a platinum insurance borders on being irrelevant. And nobody profits from nearly every noob being ganked out of the game because he looses a couple of ships and has nothing left. Eve did and does provide some very limited protection to the low end and the unsuspecting by retaliation (Concord) and insurance. Both get increasingly irrelevant for advanced players (no concord in 0.0 and insurance a joke for T2 ships). That's basically now as it has been.
Duncan MacPherson Minmatar Black Lion Legion	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Taex Edited by: Taex on 27/08/2008 14:28:00 Truth. I'm a 3 year vet that canceled both accounts weeks ago. I think this one goes inactive sometime today actually. Three years was more than enough waiting for things to turn around. Instead they run the game into the ground and turn it into blobbing hello kitty online while all the bugs and problems remain. Edit: I just checked, this account (alt) has two days left. I haven't logged in for weeks. Yet you complain when a game manages to entertain you for 3 years.... wow.... I would be thanking CCP for making a game that entertains me for so long.
Traidor Disloyal I Am Not A Lawyer	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:05:00 - [46] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Nope, I'm in the process of piling up all my assets onto one char and then ritually destroy it or perhaps just let it rot. Do a viking thing. Load it all in some ship in Jita. Take it outside station and take a shot at Concord and then watch the feeding frenzy. Glorious! --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:06:00 - [47] Thought about it, but that would benefit the freeloading high sec dwellers. And I don't believe in giving back what I took from people first :P ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:16:00 - [48] What, specifically, is the change(s) that puts the sand in your.. eyes...? How naive can you be if you think CCP just decided "We want moar customers" last year? You should know its impossible to make everybody happy, stop playing the "I'm a vet, I'm really entitled" card and go find something else to entertain yourself and spare us the rage. With your current attitude, I'm surprised your subscription lasted from beta. __________________________________________________ Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:18:00 - [49] There is a difference between groth for the sake of making the game grow, and growth at all cost to act as a staging point for your next venture. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Uzume Ame Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:22:00 - [50] Show us your direct link to CCP devs minds or stop. Teh failure of a signature.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:23:00 - [51] Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 15:23:54 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada [mostly repeating abstract non-specific complaint from first message] Do I make any sense now :) Sorry - not al all. :-) I did read the complete OP. It's all abtract and non-specific. They somehow changed direction, niche game, mass market. My problem with this is: Game A) certain sets of rules and features Game B) exactly the same rules and features Now we call game A a niche game and game B a mass-market game. Hm - didn't really help understanding what your problem is. I understand that the word mass-market somehow carries nightmarish meanings to the more elitist among us (me included) - but it doesn't really say anything concrete. Mass-market and niche are vaguely defined and very relative terms. 100k players is pretty much a mass market if the whole market is just 200k players and 1 m players can be a niche if the market has 100 m players. For the facts that death has a cost (beyond hovering back from a graveyard or some lame variation thereof), that there are no shards, the sci fi theme and the overall focus on pvp you could call EVE a niche game at almost any size. There's still regular messages on forum by noobs who get angry because somebody destroyed their ship in low sec - just like way back when. And these fundamentals did not change. Many of the changes (raising cost of wars etc) just kept things roughly were they were (people getting richer after all). Wars still get declared. I'm not saying there were no changes. But iMHO most changes were well within the stated goals of the game and most did enrich it. I assume you feel that your objections are somehow self-evident, but I have to tell you that they aren't. If CCP had made high sec into a non-pvp zone, abolished war decs and starts respawning your lost ship inclusing equipment and implants for your clone at a nearby Nano-Reassembly Center - they yes - I would know what you're talking about. But none of that happened and none of that is likely to happen. So what exactly has gone wrong thanks to that supposed horrible new (and debatable) status as a mass-market game? --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada There is a difference between groth for the sake of making the game grow, and growth at all cost to act as a staging point for your next venture. Total and utter agreement in general. Has nothing to do with Eve - so not relevant. Or did I miss the introduction of shards, free clones with implants and 15 second nano-reassembly of destroyed ships that can only be used in systems designated as pvp areas? You're still throwing around wishy washy abstractions without real info content. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:32:00 - [53] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, ****ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Luckily, not all think so. I think a majority is happy with the game, even if some things "annoy". Give it a few months. I'm pretty sure I've heard that said a few months ago. And a few months before that. and thanks for sending another crap I quit thread to OOPE.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Thought about it, but that would benefit the freeloading high sec dwellers. And I don't believe in giving back what I took from people first :P This line of thought right here shows more what (and against who) your true gripe is about than your original thread offers. Yes, your free lunch in high sec is getting fixed. You'll need to find your shits and giggles in lower/0.0 sec. These changes only affect the minority of free lunchers that operated in secure space. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:43:00 - [55] Basically, adapt or move on. All MMO's change over time, some stay some go. Any MMO that won't change will die slowly anyway. Every MMO I have played also has a few forum members that have 32,000 accounts their willing to cancel if the next nerf bat is swung at them. It is nothing new and CCP isnt about to go bust because of it.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:53:00 - [56] Cry more.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:54:00 - [57] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 15:56:35 @Glengrant: That's the point really, there is no one thing that stands out. I look at it from a management/company POV rather than ingame specifics. I'll try to highlight some aspects. - a while time ago (1-2 years or something can't remember) all of a sudden there was dev blog which kinda stated "Right, this is how we've been doing things, this is how we're going to do things and oh; we have a goal of attaining 300k subscriptions". First two parts are good, change happens; you've been somewhere and now you're gonna change some stuff. no problem there. But the last part should set off some alarms. WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers, if the people didn't fall into the concepts and ideas then you didn't need/want them anyway). And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen. That single number goal means a whole lot; it means that the goals of CCP have changed, it means (possibly) that the people that were adament about those goals trying to stay true to the core have been pushed aside. All of a sudden it went from "lets make a cracking pewpew game" to "moar money!!!". There is ofcourse nothing wrong with wanting high profit on investment but from a customer's point of view I will have my reservations about how much they still have my wellbeing and concerns as a first priority, if I initially was attracted to the game because of it's niche and different gameplay? Because to attract more people they will have to look elswhere, and to attract those new people they will have to offer them things they're accustomed to, that sound familiar and not at all too radical. In other words; in order to attain their goal they will have to conform to the general public, moving from a niche game and attitude towards a more moderate way of doing things. To oversimplify and exxagerate; they'll have to make WOW in space (I know, corny but you get my point). I don't WANT WOW in space, I want EVE in space. Furthermore; EVE will never be as good as WOW in space as when blizzard would actually attempt to make it themselves. For the simple fact that CCP is unable to work properly on specifics and details. That is the problem that EVE had; overall good ideas and amazing game, but shitty on the details. So, they're alienating a part of the older clientele, in favor of new customers (which, if the numbers work out correctly is good for them). Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs because they're used to that as that is what blizzard did SO well with WOW and their other games; it WORKS. EVE cannot provide that. So, they might get new people short term but it is my opinion that they will be unable to retain them long term. Heck even with how it WAS the average character age is 7 months. What will happen next? 14 days trials, 2 months paid for and then leave to the next MMO fix? Will that work out for CCP? moreso; do the current players want a playerbase largely made up of players like that? Do you understand my 'fear' for the long term implications these decisions and effects will have for the long term players? And that's without the obvious shift in focus toward the new MMO; but that needs no explaining. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:57:00 - [58] So, if I'm reading this right: You think you're the most space important person here, and you know best. So, CCP naturally should listen to you. Why don't they? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
JOSEPHx Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:00:00 - [59] Long term player here, still enjoying eve. OP does not reprazent my views. -
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:02:00 - [60] Originally by: An Anarchyyt So, if I'm reading this right: You think you're the most space important person here, and you know best. So, CCP naturally should listen to you. Why don't they? I'm voicing my opinion, you as a goon should know that concept. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway

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