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CCP, as a parting gift, let me explain a few things to you.

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Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 12:43:00 - [1] Wall of text incoming. Ok, to try and have the new CCP understand a few things I will explain what made it possible for the new CCP to actually have a job in the first place. When EVE was in beta is was a big steaming pile of tripe, the only reason people stuck with it was to relive their Elite (C64 ftw) days or any similar game predating EVE. Apart from that there weren't really many options for PVP MMO's and laz0r pewpew. Apart from that the playerbase felt connected to CCP because they favoured the harsh/different gameplay, meaning that the initial players mostly shared that idea, loved it and kept playing because of it. They stuck with all the bullcrap like bugs, features, more bugs, crappy website/forums/databases, not having an website avatar for 8 months, T20 shit, other CCP shitholes that got their names changed to protect them (hello Lake) and obvious other less than desirable events where CCP's player accounts got caught with their hands in the cookiejar. The long term playerbase stuck with it because they thought long term. Thing is ofcourse that CCP was never really able to actually steer, mend or enhance the behemoth that is the EVE client. Long standing bugs from years back still exist and are now dubbed as features or are just not commented on anymore. Same thing with the forums, they lack the ability to enhance or update. All they're able to do somewhat is to do patchwork; kick the server a few times, do some raindances and hope the **** runs for a bit longer. Recently (and by that I mean more than a year ago) they figured that getting more people is a good thing (which to a point it is ofcourse). The problem is that the playerpool for a PVP centric game like EVE and the type of player that EVE requires/attracts is quite limited, that means that in order to attract more people the game had to change. So far that sounds like a business strategy, and strategies are a good thing. So from a corporate point of view there's no problem. However, the problem comes from the new target audience. They are NOT long term EVE gamers which harbour a lot of love for the old EVE and CCP. They are used to polished, easy to play, low expectation tripe. Also, they have a lot of games to choose from, meaning that all of sudden CCP's target playerbase switches from decent and loyal (thus predictable) to a bunch more but possibly less loyal. Apart from that it requires massive changes (that have been set in motion a long time ago) regarding gameplay, balance and CCP's attitude towards core game design. I'm sure someone somewhere in Iceland made the calculations regarding this but I feel they forgot a few variables. If you think that long term players will stay anyway and the ones that do leave are easily made up for by the new arrivals then you think short term. For now it works but I doubt it will keep on going. TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Unless ofcourse CCP IS thinking short term, for a reason; Possibly the earlier mentioned fact that the client is a behemoth they really can't (be arsed to) control anymore. And ofcourse perhaps the new MMO that they hope will do well, removing the need for EVE in the first place. If that is the case then they're doing a good job of suckering in as many players as they possibly can in a short amount of time. Well done. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway**
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.27 12:44:00 - [2] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, ***ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Luckily, not all think so. I think a majority is happy with the game, even if some things "annoy". My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.*
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 12:48:00 - [3] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, **ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Luckily, not all think so. I think a majority is happy with the game, even if some things "annoy". Give it a few months. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway**
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.08.27 12:50:00 - [4] i am happy with the game as it is now, yes nano are annoying but i can kill them anyway, ues pos shooting is annoying but atm it works, yes the economy is completly in arms as low mineral prices are lower but i build my own things i have took the adapt or be annoyed approach and it working for me alkthough i am sad to see the veldnaught go back to low sec, man the hours i have bumped that thing =( -_/-_/-_/-_/- Please return trays to their upright position. Thanks you for riding the forums
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.27 12:50:00 - [5] Im happy with the changes, adapt or die! -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
rayvens	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:07:00 - [6] im sorry but what was the point again?
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:09:00 - [7] You're forgetting that gamers have finite attention spans. Playing the same game for years on end does lose it's charm eventually. You're also assuming that you (or indeed the whiny and vocal portion of these forums) represent a majority of the playerbase. Furthermore you're assuming that new players won't stick around.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:09:00 - [8] THEY NURFFED MY NANONS!!! RAGE!!! "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Asestorian Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:09:00 - [9] If it weren't for the fact that a little while ago I got myself a year long subscription, I would have let it lapse. At the moment I'm just completely unsure what the hell is going on with CCP and this game. I understand that CCP themselves have changed, and grown, and all that. But I still miss the old CCP, I really do. Right now I'm waiting at least for the nano nerf patch to hit (I don't hate fighting nanos, I hate having to fly them, by the way) and possibly even for something else. Until then, I hear WAR is coming out soon. --- Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, ****ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Luckily, not all think so. I think a majority is happy with the game, even if some things "annoy". Give it a few months. In the mean time can i have your stuff before you pull the 1 act that all emo tease us with. that being cutting yourself and showing us that you do in fact bleed black? Give me your stuff and you can do whatever you want in your emo induced girly rage.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:12:00 - [11] Originally by: Kuolematon THEY NURFFED MY NANONS!!! RAGE!!! Kuole, throughout all your EVE career you have been an insignificant clown, I see nothing has changed. I actually AGREE with the nano changes, and my main is Minni while this char flies (flew) a nanocurse. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:18:00 - [12] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, **ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Luckily, not all think so. I think a majority is happy with the game, even if some things "annoy". Give it a few months. I did, back in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 AND 2007 when we had the same...stuff...with different wrapping. Nothing changes, everything passes, but nothing changes. Originally by:** Cygnus Zhada Kuole, throughout all your EVE career you have been an insignificant clown, Hope this don't offend your epeen too much, but Kuolematon is more significant then you 'cause i've actually HEARD of Kuolematon My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:21:00 - [13] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 13:21:38 This is an alt on the only account that hasn't run out yet :) Besides, you gotta admit he's a clown. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:23:00 - [14] Well, as you are leaving, can I have your stuff? -------- Ideas for: Mining
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:24:00 - [15] Nope, I'm in the process of piling up all my assets onto one char and then ritually destroy it or perhaps just let it rot. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:27:00 - [16] Eve is always changing. People will always whine. .
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:29:00 - [17] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 27/08/2008 13:29:24 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, ****ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Signed. EVE did not achieve its success from casual gaming, and trying to cater the game to these kinds of people has serious consequences on your veteran playerbase that few other MMOs have to deal with. Pull your head out of your ass before its too late. Football? Hell yes.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:40:00 - [18] OK - wall of text that in a nutshell says "I'm a veteran eve player from way back and I'm angry about - something". I guess it's up to our imagination to guess what the problem might be. But here's the thing - I dont't see it. And I just happen to be one of those long-term guys too. So what did I miss? First off - the idea that in 2003 there was a singular pool of players that like a challenging game is silly. I agree that this is probably a minority thing (well - let's see WoW 10 m - Eve 250 k - ok). But new people grow up and anyway most people simply never heard of Eve in 2003 - hard core player or not - so we can safely assume that the player base can grow some while the game remains hard core. Now, from what I read between the lines your point is that by bowing to the wishes of the lame unwashed masses so as to explode the player base CCP made Eve into teletubby land. Hm- let's see: 0.0 - still there, still no law unless you enforce it yourself High sec - concord still comes after your ship's been wrecked low sec - still a pirate infested mess carebears fear to go to war decs - also still there Payout for insurance is still the same - but now many ships are T2 where payout is a joke compared to market value of ship (and let's not go into t2 mods) - so this part has become harsher actually Is pvp suddenly consensual only - nope There's certainly a lot more ships and stuff and POS and all. But besides stuff and more people all around - what's the big diff to 2003? Did some favourite uber-ganking setup of yours re-balanced? Get over it. Can't take the harshness of having to compete at equal terms? Tough. With all the whining from some forumites here some pvper sound downright carebearish too me - Eve become too harsh for you? :-) That wasn't it` Well- what is the freakin problem then? OK - I kinda miss the 30 jumps of deep deep space beyond the chokepoints before conquerable stations, extra outer jump routes and outposts beyond the chokepoints. But OTOH it was a lot of wasted space that hardly anybody used for anything. Having more people in 0.0 is unavoidable (also people used to whine about hardly anybody living in 0.0) and CCP would have gone broke with the subs from early 2004 (actually almost happened back then). Eve 2003 - can be quite harsh, laggy with many ships (= 20) Eve 2008 - can be quite harsh, laggy with many ships (= 200) The fundamentals did not change at all. Just more stuff. cooler graphics. More platforms. Improved GUI. Better gang/fleet support. Eve voice. So, please, be a bit specific. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 13:21:38 This is an alt on the only account that hasn't run out yet :) Besides, you gotta admit he's a clown. Me calling anyone a clown would be like a impairor calling a titan a rookieship My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Naomi Halloran Industry Breakthrough	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:49:00 - [20] To the OP: You don't speak for me. Please don't assume you do. Considering that 9/10 of the player base don't come here, I hardly think you speak for a majority of anything. --- "Sarcasm is just another free service I offer. If something I said offends you... good, it was meant to."
Rafilialindal Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:50:00 - [21] I'd just like to say, I can see where the OP is coming from. After putting so much time and effort into something like eve..wouldn't it be strange not to feel angry at ccp? I haven't been in eve long enough to get jaded yet, but I can definetally relate based on other mmos I've been involved in, including one I helped develop from the ground up, (only to see the devs **** all over it..grrr). The only advice I can give you is to take it like it is, a form of entertainment we have very little control over, and one that should only ever be given a fraction of your emotional involvement.
Vincent Gaines Avis de Captura	Posted - 2008.08.27 13:56:00 - [22] Wait, Lake was able to change his name? What is it, I owe him a poddin'
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Vincent Gaines Wait, Lake was able to change his name? What is it, I owe him a poddin' No, Lake IS the new name. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Sarin Adler Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Glengrant Smart stuff. This. If you have to whine about anything: whine that the game HASN'T really changed substantially. If I've to agree with soemthing you said is that CCP can't control really the behemonth it has created, probably because the engine a a BIG mess and really badlly programmed (the original devs joined up and tried to create something they had a nice vision for, but probably they are not the best coders in the world) in some ways. That's why the game hasn't really evolved that much and it takes years to add a minor feature (seriouslly check FW, how many lines of code did go there, lol, not much I bet). So yes, the game in essence still pretty much the same, only that with more & bigger fancy ships, better ballance and some stupidilly broken stuff being fixed (amongt them suicide ganks, nanos & wardecs). If I want soemthing is more vision by CCP to really expand the game or overhaul some of its parts: soverignity, industry, insurance (remove it maybe), 'local' & intel in general, place of small gang warfare, capitals, etc. If anything the game got harders for the new players in all aspects: industry & trading competition is fierce, pvp gap is harder to overcome (T2), etc. Maybe it's time to move because the game has lost the flavour it had for you, something natural, give it a long break or leave it forever; you have reached endgame, it allway happens. But seriouslly, people need to stop into conspiracy theories (actually you may have some good points compared to other threads, but you still try to read minds like all these trolls out there) and play more the game like they want. That or STFU and move.
Eben Rochelle Gallente LFC Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:09:00 - [25] Best Nano rage ever! 9/10 would read again.
Vincent Gaines Avis de Captura	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada No, Lake IS the new name. There's only one Lake I know of, from ISS (Praxis) who stole billions and was a general asshat.
TigerXtrm BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:11:00 - [27] Online games have the contant NEED to be tweaked and adjusted. You may find it entertaining, cracking your ribs every time your super nano boat outruns everyone while you kill those bastards at the same time. People on the other end don't find it that much fun, especially if they run into the same lame tricks over and over again. Especially if hundreds of people are doing it. Gaming is a social event. If you're here because you're not worth anything in real life but get to pwn people like crazy here on EVE then please go away and go kick babies out of windows to get that warm fuzzy feeling of owning someone. If you can't deal with changes in games then you do NOT deserve to play them. You pay monthly to play this game, at least put some bloody effort into it instead of wanting to have everything handed to you on a silver platter. www.BIG-EVE.com \| BIG is Recruiting!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:13:00 - [28] Originally by: TigerXtrm Online games have the contant NEED to be tweaked and adjusted. You may find it entertaining, cracking your ribs every time your super nano boat outruns everyone while you kill those bastards at the same time. People on the other end don't find it that much fun, especially if they run into the same lame tricks over and over again. Especially if hundreds of people are doing it. Gaming is a social event. If you're here because you're not worth anything in real life but get to pwn people like crazy here on EVE then please go away and go kick babies out of windows to get that warm fuzzy feeling of owning someone. If you can't deal with changes in games then you do NOT deserve to play them. You pay monthly to play this game, at least put some bloody effort into it instead of wanting to have everything handed to you on a silver platter. Do you actually have a clue? ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:13:00 - [29] Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:14:04 Originally by: Rafilialindal I'd just like to say, I can see where the OP is coming from. After putting so much time and effort into something like eve..wouldn't it be strange not to feel angry at ccp? Err - why exactly? Or roughly? Or anything guessable hinted at? Just like the OP you fail to explain what it is that annoys you. I'm not saying CCP is a saintly bunch of unfailing angels who never make mistakes. But really - what's the terrible thing that would make it strange not to feel angry at them? I'm not feeling angry yet and I fell I'm missing out on something here. ;-) Please enlighten me. I know that the usual suspects are: * Some nerf or other (aka they plugged a design hole that wasn't supposed to be there from the beginning) * lag (aka I want want want to be in Jita all the time, or our blob and their blob didnt work out so well, even though big blob is now hundreds instead of tens) * didn't implement somebodies pet feature yet * eve too harsh (aka I got ganked) * eve not harsh enough (aka didn't find somebody I could gank right away) * CCP only caters to pvpers * CCP only caters to carebears * CCP screws noobs * CCP screws veterans * fresh out of the oven: Chribbas Veldnaught I don't see a reason to really get angry about any of this. And as many complaints actually contradict each other we really need more specifics. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Vincent Gaines Originally by: Cygnus Zhada No, Lake IS the new name. There's only one Lake I know of, from ISS (Praxis) who stole billions and was a general asshat. Correct, his previous name was uhm... "Solon" or something like that. Apart from that, don't you find it odd that he went "inactive" for a long time while still being in charge of a corp (whcih had enough able members to not tolerate an inactive leader) in ISS and then suddenly come back after a certain other alliance/character went down in flames? ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:15:00 - [31] Just because a player wasn't here since beta, doesn't mean they aren't in for the long-term. New players might stick with this game just as long - they outnumber the 'vets' and thus, proportionally deserve more attention. San Matari Official forums
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Glengrant Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:14:04 Originally by: Rafilialindal I'd just like to say, I can see where the OP is coming from. After putting so much time and effort into something like eve..wouldn't it be strange not to feel angry at ccp? Err - why exactly? Or roughly? Or anything guessable hinted at? Just like the OP you fail to explain what it is that annoys you. I'm not saying CCP is a saintly bunch of unfailing angels who never make mistakes. But really - what's the terrible thing that would make it strange not to feel angry at them? I'm not feeling angry yet and I fell I'm missing out on something here. ;-) Please enlighten me. I know that the usual suspects are: * Some nerf or other (aka they plugged a design hole that wasn't supposed to be there from the beginning) * lag (aka I want want want to be in Jita all the time, or our blob and their blob didnt work out so well, even though big blob is now hundreds instead of tens) * didn't implement somebodies pet feature yet * eve too harsh (aka I got ganked) * eve not harsh enough (aka didn't find somebody I could gank right away) * CCP only caters to pvpers * CCP only caters to carebears * CCP screws noobs * CCP screws veterans * fresh out of the oven: Chribbas Veldnaught I don't see a reason to really get angry about any of this. And as many complaints actually contradict each other we really need more specifics. Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Vincent Gaines Avis de Captura	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Correct, his previous name was uhm... "Solon" or something like that. Apart from that, don't you find it odd that he went "inactive" for a long time while still being in charge of a corp (whcih had enough able members to not tolerate an inactive leader) in ISS and then suddenly come back after a certain other alliance/character went down in flames? By what I remember (I was in Praxis at the time) Gasman stole about 4 bil (which was a lot at the time) then Lake's corp-bought Chimera (which we didn't know was corp bought) was ganked by MoM, including the billions in minerals he was jump hauling to empire, he then used corp funds to buy another, then did his disappearing act, all the good ISS people went to different corps/alliances. What's the rest of the story, I'm actually curious-after Praxis split I went inactive for a while (damn Army vacation)
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:24:00 - [34] Can I haz ur stuff? Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:26:00 - [35] Try to remember whom you rented that station from, it'll give you a clue. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Taex	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:27:00 - [36] Edited by: Taex on 27/08/2008 14:28:00 Truth. I'm a 3 year vet that canceled both accounts weeks ago. I think this one goes inactive sometime today actually. Three years was more than enough waiting for things to turn around. Instead they run the game into the ground and turn it into blobbing hello kitty online while all the bugs and problems remain. Edit: I just checked, this account (alt) has two days left. I haven't logged in for weeks.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:28:00 - [37] Edited by: Victor Kruger on 27/08/2008 14:29:38 I'm actually happy to see CCP gradually get rid of the good ole happy buddy relationship with the older players. This behaviour has brought nothing but trouble into the game (T20 incident, anyone). And from what I've seen the long-term players don't have more loyalty towards CCP than fresh players. They were loyal as long as they got what they wanted. Once these old walls are torn down, CCP can hopefully maintain a friendly, but professional distance to their playerbase and provide a service that is bought for its quality and not because some favors were played. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Glengrant Hm- let's see: 0.0 - still there, still no law unless you enforce it yourself High sec - concord still comes after your ship's been wrecked low sec - still a pirate infested mess carebears fear to go to war decs - also still there Payout for insurance is still the same - but now many ships are T2 where payout is a joke compared to market value of ship (and let's not go into t2 mods) - so this part has become harsher actually Is pvp suddenly consensual only - nope -0.0 has changed significantly with the introduction of sov and player owned structures. -High sec penalties for killing ships has been greatly increased (and will be further increased according to a dev blog). -Low sec is a lot safer now as it was in the past. Sentry guns have been buffed several times. -War decs now cost money. -Base insurance was a later addition (when you blew your ship up back in the day and you did not buy insurance then you got no isk at all). PvP has become a lot more consensual due to the above changes... --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:35:00 - [39] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you. And you can neither explain nor hint what you mean because ....? --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
london Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:41:00 - [40] Edited by: london on 27/08/2008 14:42:39 This post annoys me. Mr. Zhada assumes too much-- it's trite speculation (at best) to think you know anything about CCP's business strategy. And the thought that they are trying to sink Eve is laughable. Yeah, CCP is really just here for short term gain given all the work and expansion the game has received and will be receiving. (Trinity, FW, Ambulation, etc...) I've been playing this game on and off since it came out in 2003, and I agree that sometime you get burned out from the same thing. The one thing that Eve isn't is stale. Every time they come out with new content or function, It always brings me back and keeps things fresh. It's an ever changing and evolving game, if your so sick of it... take a break! You will probably be back in less time than you think. Cheers.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:43:00 - [41] I've been playing since late 2005. I'm not sure where my account falls on the scale of long-term playability, but I happen to agree with most of the changes CCP has executed since the inception of my main character. What I think CCP is trying to accomplish is curb and tone down the malicious and ill intents of certain players which are becoming more and more prevalent as the game grows. Yes, the mechanics that allow these activities have always been there. But as the playerbase grows the problems are exacerbated by the few that insist is their given right to exploit them. The moral of the story is this game will continue to fine-tune its "quirks" but in the end Eve will also continue to offer what it has been offering since its beginning. There will always be unconsensual PVP. And there will always be a highly competitive industry. There will always be plenty of PVE activities. It will always have 100% player-controlled (or not) space. And there will probably always be safer empire space. In the end Eve will continue to be Eve at its core. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Rafilialindal Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:53:00 - [42] To Glengrant: Many people playing online games have a specific vision for said game. They see the game moving in a certain direction, they would like to see certain things happen. When the reality of the game doesn't fit this mold the player constructs..and when this goes on for a number of years..the player gets a bit jaded. Now, I wasn't really refering to any one point in particular, I actually like the direction the game is headed in, I was just sympothising with the OP. As for specifics about the OPs problems with eve..all I can say is re-read the first post..
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you. And you can neither explain nor hint what you mean because ....? If you actually read the whole OP you should be able to correlate it from that. but I'll help you out using bulletpoints; - EVE's success come from being a niche game, which attracts niche players. It certainly never was a coding masterpiece - since those niche players applauded CCP's daring move by being niche, combined with the fact that there really weren't any other MMO's that compared, they stuck to it - even to a point where they simply looked away from the lacking game design, bugs, CCP's player account interferences and overal bad game support (mind you, not talking about the GM'S) like failing forums, years outdated web databases and part of the website that simply didn't work for more than 2 years. - any other MMO would have gotten burned to the ground, trampled on and brushed aside because of those problems. - EVE didn't because we loved the game and what it stood for, it's called loyalty and sharing a vision. Apart from still not having any other realistic MMO option - CCP's focus has shifted from EVE to the new MMO, this is logical and to be expected. this means that thei goals shifts from long term, to short term - because of that they try to keep thing running without needing too many resources - also; to fund the new MMO they're trying to make as much cash as possible short term - which means that they don't care what they have to do to make this happen, as they don't have long term plans anymore. if that means they have to rename Jita to Stormwind, give everyone a free MiniVagabond that flies around with you or just paint all the planets pink to try to attract more female players, they'll do it. - I refuse to pay and play an MMO if the company that makes it thinks short term and (even worse) tramples on the old values, ideas and game concepts to do so I'm not talking about nerfs (as stated, I'm in favor of the nano nerf), I'm not talking about one thing. What I AM talking about is the shift in thinking, game concept and priorities that have been happening within CCP. Do I make any sense now :)
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:55:00 - [44] Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:55:45 Originally by: Shevar -0.0 has changed significantly with the introduction of sov and player owned structures. Granted. They made space conquerable. IMHO a good change - but it certainly is a big change. Agreed. Originally by: Shevar -High sec penalties for killing ships has been greatly increased (and will be further increased according to a dev blog). Not changing the overall game at all. In the olden days killing ships in high sec was extremely rare. War decs and more recently suicide ganks got out of hand. The "changes" just brought things back to where they used to be. making wars more expensive is basically just inflation compensation. Originally by: Shevar -Low sec is a lot safer now as it was in the past. Sentry guns have been buffed several times. That and WT0 makes a bit of difference - but not much. It was mostly noobs that got ganked in low sec in the beginning and it's mostly noobs that get ganked in ÷ow sec now. Originally by: Shevar -War decs now cost money. If they didn't in the first few weeks/months I actually forgot about it. Certainly no recent change. As closer to the fabled early days as makes no difference. And I hope you agree that there has to be some cost to getting a war licence in empire - otherwise high sec is joke. Originally by: Shevar -Base insurance was a later addition (when you blew your ship up back in the day and you did not buy insurance then you got no isk at all). Right - but, again - that was changed fairly early. Hardly something that could be used as an argument for slippery slope in more recent years. And 40% of ship base price still means that you have to refinance 70+% (modules not being insured) of what you just lost. Originally by: Shevar PvP has become a lot more consensual due to the above changes... Not true. If a carebear gets ganked and looses his ship with tens of millions in cargo he won't really care that he gets a couple hundred k as base in surance for his indu, does he? And for somebody flying a T2 ship with T2 equipment even a platinum insurance borders on being irrelevant. And nobody profits from nearly every noob being ganked out of the game because he looses a couple of ships and has nothing left. Eve did and does provide some very limited protection to the low end and the unsuspecting by retaliation (Concord) and insurance. Both get increasingly irrelevant for advanced players (no concord in 0.0 and insurance a joke for T2 ships). That's basically now as it has been.
Duncan MacPherson Minmatar Black Lion Legion	Posted - 2008.08.27 14:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Taex Edited by: Taex on 27/08/2008 14:28:00 Truth. I'm a 3 year vet that canceled both accounts weeks ago. I think this one goes inactive sometime today actually. Three years was more than enough waiting for things to turn around. Instead they run the game into the ground and turn it into blobbing hello kitty online while all the bugs and problems remain. Edit: I just checked, this account (alt) has two days left. I haven't logged in for weeks. Yet you complain when a game manages to entertain you for 3 years.... wow.... I would be thanking CCP for making a game that entertains me for so long.
Traidor Disloyal I Am Not A Lawyer	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:05:00 - [46] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Nope, I'm in the process of piling up all my assets onto one char and then ritually destroy it or perhaps just let it rot. Do a viking thing. Load it all in some ship in Jita. Take it outside station and take a shot at Concord and then watch the feeding frenzy. Glorious! --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:06:00 - [47] Thought about it, but that would benefit the freeloading high sec dwellers. And I don't believe in giving back what I took from people first :P ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:16:00 - [48] What, specifically, is the change(s) that puts the sand in your.. eyes...? How naive can you be if you think CCP just decided "We want moar customers" last year? You should know its impossible to make everybody happy, stop playing the "I'm a vet, I'm really entitled" card and go find something else to entertain yourself and spare us the rage. With your current attitude, I'm surprised your subscription lasted from beta. __________________________________________________ Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:18:00 - [49] There is a difference between groth for the sake of making the game grow, and growth at all cost to act as a staging point for your next venture. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Uzume Ame Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:22:00 - [50] Show us your direct link to CCP devs minds or stop. Teh failure of a signature.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:23:00 - [51] Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 15:23:54 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada [mostly repeating abstract non-specific complaint from first message] Do I make any sense now :) Sorry - not al all. :-) I did read the complete OP. It's all abtract and non-specific. They somehow changed direction, niche game, mass market. My problem with this is: Game A) certain sets of rules and features Game B) exactly the same rules and features Now we call game A a niche game and game B a mass-market game. Hm - didn't really help understanding what your problem is. I understand that the word mass-market somehow carries nightmarish meanings to the more elitist among us (me included) - but it doesn't really say anything concrete. Mass-market and niche are vaguely defined and very relative terms. 100k players is pretty much a mass market if the whole market is just 200k players and 1 m players can be a niche if the market has 100 m players. For the facts that death has a cost (beyond hovering back from a graveyard or some lame variation thereof), that there are no shards, the sci fi theme and the overall focus on pvp you could call EVE a niche game at almost any size. There's still regular messages on forum by noobs who get angry because somebody destroyed their ship in low sec - just like way back when. And these fundamentals did not change. Many of the changes (raising cost of wars etc) just kept things roughly were they were (people getting richer after all). Wars still get declared. I'm not saying there were no changes. But iMHO most changes were well within the stated goals of the game and most did enrich it. I assume you feel that your objections are somehow self-evident, but I have to tell you that they aren't. If CCP had made high sec into a non-pvp zone, abolished war decs and starts respawning your lost ship inclusing equipment and implants for your clone at a nearby Nano-Reassembly Center - they yes - I would know what you're talking about. But none of that happened and none of that is likely to happen. So what exactly has gone wrong thanks to that supposed horrible new (and debatable) status as a mass-market game? --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada There is a difference between groth for the sake of making the game grow, and growth at all cost to act as a staging point for your next venture. Total and utter agreement in general. Has nothing to do with Eve - so not relevant. Or did I miss the introduction of shards, free clones with implants and 15 second nano-reassembly of destroyed ships that can only be used in systems designated as pvp areas? You're still throwing around wishy washy abstractions without real info content. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:32:00 - [53] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Cygnus Zhada TL;DR version; you're doing it wrong, ****ing off long term players in favour of short term gains is not a sound businessplan. Luckily, not all think so. I think a majority is happy with the game, even if some things "annoy". Give it a few months. I'm pretty sure I've heard that said a few months ago. And a few months before that. and thanks for sending another crap I quit thread to OOPE.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Thought about it, but that would benefit the freeloading high sec dwellers. And I don't believe in giving back what I took from people first :P This line of thought right here shows more what (and against who) your true gripe is about than your original thread offers. Yes, your free lunch in high sec is getting fixed. You'll need to find your shits and giggles in lower/0.0 sec. These changes only affect the minority of free lunchers that operated in secure space. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:43:00 - [55] Basically, adapt or move on. All MMO's change over time, some stay some go. Any MMO that won't change will die slowly anyway. Every MMO I have played also has a few forum members that have 32,000 accounts their willing to cancel if the next nerf bat is swung at them. It is nothing new and CCP isnt about to go bust because of it.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:53:00 - [56] Cry more.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:54:00 - [57] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 15:56:35 @Glengrant: That's the point really, there is no one thing that stands out. I look at it from a management/company POV rather than ingame specifics. I'll try to highlight some aspects. - a while time ago (1-2 years or something can't remember) all of a sudden there was dev blog which kinda stated "Right, this is how we've been doing things, this is how we're going to do things and oh; we have a goal of attaining 300k subscriptions". First two parts are good, change happens; you've been somewhere and now you're gonna change some stuff. no problem there. But the last part should set off some alarms. WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers, if the people didn't fall into the concepts and ideas then you didn't need/want them anyway). And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen. That single number goal means a whole lot; it means that the goals of CCP have changed, it means (possibly) that the people that were adament about those goals trying to stay true to the core have been pushed aside. All of a sudden it went from "lets make a cracking pewpew game" to "moar money!!!". There is ofcourse nothing wrong with wanting high profit on investment but from a customer's point of view I will have my reservations about how much they still have my wellbeing and concerns as a first priority, if I initially was attracted to the game because of it's niche and different gameplay? Because to attract more people they will have to look elswhere, and to attract those new people they will have to offer them things they're accustomed to, that sound familiar and not at all too radical. In other words; in order to attain their goal they will have to conform to the general public, moving from a niche game and attitude towards a more moderate way of doing things. To oversimplify and exxagerate; they'll have to make WOW in space (I know, corny but you get my point). I don't WANT WOW in space, I want EVE in space. Furthermore; EVE will never be as good as WOW in space as when blizzard would actually attempt to make it themselves. For the simple fact that CCP is unable to work properly on specifics and details. That is the problem that EVE had; overall good ideas and amazing game, but shitty on the details. So, they're alienating a part of the older clientele, in favor of new customers (which, if the numbers work out correctly is good for them). Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs because they're used to that as that is what blizzard did SO well with WOW and their other games; it WORKS. EVE cannot provide that. So, they might get new people short term but it is my opinion that they will be unable to retain them long term. Heck even with how it WAS the average character age is 7 months. What will happen next? 14 days trials, 2 months paid for and then leave to the next MMO fix? Will that work out for CCP? moreso; do the current players want a playerbase largely made up of players like that? Do you understand my 'fear' for the long term implications these decisions and effects will have for the long term players? And that's without the obvious shift in focus toward the new MMO; but that needs no explaining. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:57:00 - [58] So, if I'm reading this right: You think you're the most space important person here, and you know best. So, CCP naturally should listen to you. Why don't they? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
JOSEPHx Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:00:00 - [59] Long term player here, still enjoying eve. OP does not reprazent my views. -
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:02:00 - [60] Originally by: An Anarchyyt So, if I'm reading this right: You think you're the most space important person here, and you know best. So, CCP naturally should listen to you. Why don't they? I'm voicing my opinion, you as a goon should know that concept. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt So, if I'm reading this right: You think you're the most space important person here, and you know best. So, CCP naturally should listen to you. Why don't they? I'm voicing my opinion, you as a goon should know that concept. I know that there are ways to do it without going "Dear CCP, I know everything, and I am right, and I am going to bless you guys with this fact. So you should feel greatful that I have descended from Olympus to give you this valuble advice." By the way, been around since Castor, still happy. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers, if the people didn't fall into the concepts and ideas then you didn't need/want them anyway). And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen. What kind of buisness modal for a MMO wouldn't care about subscriptions? To the people who profit from CCP, subscription numbers are the only thing that matters. Afterall, how good do you think they could make the game with only 100k subscribers, and the ever escallating cost of living we have?
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:11:00 - [63] So what exactly does the OP want? What needs to be rolled back? 1) roll back RMR missile skills? 2) roll back dual AB MWD stuff? 3) roll back sov and pos stuff? 3) roll back invention? I just don't get the OP as I don't understand WHAT he wants? "When I evolved, we raptors and T-Rex were the best there ever were. We dinosaurs were elite, and we stuck with it for the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretacious period! We were loyal for hundreds of millions of years. We didn't even mind mammals or pterosaurs or sea-reptiles, and then BOOM they changed the WHOLE world on us! Out of nowhere mammals have grown to take over the earth. They are smaller than us, dont kill us much as we do, and quite frankly we are royally mad for the evolution of mammal!"
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:12:00 - [64] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt So, if I'm reading this right: You think you're the most space important person here, and you know best. So, CCP naturally should listen to you. Why don't they? I'm voicing my opinion, you as a goon should know that concept. I know that there are ways to do it without going "Dear CCP, I know everything, and I am right, and I am going to bless you guys with this fact. So you should feel greatful that I have descended from Olympus to give you this valuble advice." By the way, been around since Castor, still happy. I'm also still happy, and in no way do I have any stupid ideas that I know everything better than CCP. the op needs to get over himself and just say it. Your ****ed off an something CCP did and because of that you've lost your will to keep playing for now. now blah blah blah I'm a king losing me is important. becuase it's not mate the sad horrible truth is this game would run on with only 10,000 players. I've seen it happen too, really old mmorpgs still kicking far past what it should, and eve hasn't even started to lose subs yet.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Ephyra Chamos Originally by: Cygnus Zhada WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers, if the people didn't fall into the concepts and ideas then you didn't need/want them anyway). And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen. What kind of buisness modal for a MMO wouldn't care about subscriptions? To the people who profit from CCP, subscription numbers are the only thing that matters. Afterall, how good do you think they could make the game with only 100k subscribers, and the ever escallating cost of living we have? Because they were idealists and players first, and a company second (or even third). That is what attracted me (and I guess several others) to the game in the first place. The total lack of marketing shit talk, the complete focus on the GAME. The fact that it wasn't run by EA, NCsoft, SOE or any other big time creativity crushing publisher. Other posters; have fun trolling or if you're genuine actually engage your brain and READ what is posted. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Lady Valory "When I evolved, we raptors and T-Rex were the best there ever were. We dinosaurs were elite, and we stuck with it for the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretacious period! We were loyal for hundreds of millions of years. We didn't even mind mammals or pterosaurs or sea-reptiles, and then BOOM they changed the WHOLE world on us! Out of nowhere mammals have grown to take over the earth. They are smaller than us, dont kill us much as we do, and quite frankly we are royally mad for the evolution of mammal!" Fair point. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:20:00 - [67] I assume that a one-shard server system is "stuck" at a maximum possible revenue stream and a maximum number, especially considering the current lag... Thus if suppose with some optimazation that the server system can support 750 000 accounts or even 1 million accounts and the system CANT support 2mil or 5 mil or whatever accounts... Then if you're a businessman, why would you care if you lose 100 000 subs, if you gain 100 000 subs for people who like the "new playstyle". In other words, if the current hardware cant support more than 750 000 people or say 75000 simultaneous log-ins, then why would anyone care if those 40000-75000 paying customers were old school, loyalists or new people? Also from the last econ. blog, the average age of the eve person is 7 months, so there is tremendous churn and burn to this game. Maybe CCP is saying, "Well if we cut loose the 50000 or so accounts that are griefers and die-hard pvp people, AND that means we get more 'community' and up the other numbers by 50000 carebears BUT people stick around for 12 months instead of 7, then the game is more profitable... Personally, I think that is a sad line of reasoning, but if the architecture is capped at X number, it is probably easier to fill that cap with 'EVE-light' players.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:23:00 - [68] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 16:23:50 Another good point. Thing is that I don't see 0.0 entities, allainces and long term things like T2 production and whatnot happening if the overal ingame age is quite young. EVE is a long term MMO with long term goals, forcing a large part of the playerbase to refresh itself long before actually getting to those goals means the game gets poorer because of it. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:24:00 - [69] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Because they were idealists and players first, and a company second (or even third). That is what attracted me (and I guess several others) to the game in the first place. The total lack of marketing shit talk, the complete focus on the GAME. The fact that it wasn't run by EA, NCsoft, SOE or any other big time creativity crushing publisher. Other posters; have fun trolling or if you're genuine actually engage your brain and READ what is posted. So now you've also decided to tell us what they care about now? You really need to get over yourself. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:25:00 - [70] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Because they were idealists and players first, and a company second (or even third). That is what attracted me (and I guess several others) to the game in the first place. The total lack of marketing shit talk, the complete focus on the GAME. The fact that it wasn't run by EA, NCsoft, SOE or any other big time creativity crushing publisher. Other posters; have fun trolling or if you're genuine actually engage your brain and READ what is posted. So now you've also decided to tell us what they care about now? You really need to get over yourself. They already stated what they care about; 300k subscriptions and their new MMO. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:27:00 - [71] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Ephyra Chamos Originally by: Cygnus Zhada WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers, if the people didn't fall into the concepts and ideas then you didn't need/want them anyway). And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen. What kind of buisness modal for a MMO wouldn't care about subscriptions? To the people who profit from CCP, subscription numbers are the only thing that matters. Afterall, how good do you think they could make the game with only 100k subscribers, and the ever escallating cost of living we have? Because they were idealists and players first, and a company second (or even third). That is what attracted me (and I guess several others) to the game in the first place. The total lack of marketing shit talk, the complete focus on the GAME. The fact that it wasn't run by EA, NCsoft, SOE or any other big time creativity crushing publisher. Other posters; have fun trolling or if you're genuine actually engage your brain and READ what is posted. Even if CCP was a non-profit making organisation, they need to evolve the game to keep people interested and income up enough to cover costs of maintenence and the stuff needed to help with lag. I am not saying I agree with all the changes (and BTW I know whats best for Eve), but I see why they are doing with this. I don't enjoy the game any less, veriaty is the spice of life.
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:28:00 - [72] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Because they were idealists and players first, and a company second (or even third). That is what attracted me (and I guess several others) to the game in the first place. The total lack of marketing shit talk, the complete focus on the GAME. The fact that it wasn't run by EA, NCsoft, SOE or any other big time creativity crushing publisher. Other posters; have fun trolling or if you're genuine actually engage your brain and READ what is posted. So now you've also decided to tell us what they care about now? You really need to get over yourself. They already stated what they care about; 300k subscriptions and their new MMO. Citation on the latter?
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:36:00 - [73] For me that is a serious problem--the constant retooling of my characters. No matter how many skillpoints or how many years I've played, I cant get serious traction because the see-saw of the game is so much... The only solution I have is to make billions of isk, fund lots of accounts, and max out every playstyle. Little of that is available to everyone else, however... By retooling over the years, so many vet players have done this... Trained for sniper minmatar stuff and artilleries--then alphastrike gets nerfed... Trained for zealots and ganking, then damage mods get nerfed... Trained for missiles for easy PVE, then missiles got balanced with about 1 year of new skills with RMR... Trained for the T2 lottery, ended up with "rage thorn rocket bpo" then all that gets nerfed... Trained for the old school courier missions (remember those where u hauled 50000m3 in a freighter for 9000LP and a bucket of trade goods like 500000 antibiotics! God, I miss those!) and then they got nerfed... Trained shield skills for the nighthawk... got nerfed... Then trained minmatar and every godly speed skill to 5, and now that is getting nerfed... Trained for all drones and the mymerdon 5 heavies... got nerfed... Trained up max nos skills for the NOS domi... got nerfed... Trained up carriers to haul for mining ops... got nerfed... Trained up scanning to be better at pvp scanning people... got nerfed... I'm sure there are more examples, but I guess I understand the OPs 'vet' rage, but I've kinda shrugged off frustration with in favor of a 'train it all approach' with the hopes of having 1-2 decent toons at all times...
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:37:00 - [74] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 16:40:23 @Ephyra Chamos; CCP have been working on a new MMO, they merged together with WhiteWolf to make use of their expertise on that aspect of MMO's. What you know as Ambulation is nothing more than a trial project to test and work out problems with that sort of engine they're going to use for their new project. A lot (if not most) of the core designers have not been working on EVE for a long time, they have moved to the new one (or left, that can happen ofcourse). They have been replaced by new personel, which in itself doesn't have to be a problem ofcourse. But you gotta ask yourself this; Why move the core designers from your old to your new MMO, if you could have hired new designers for that new MMO as well? Some answers could be; - new ones are cheaper because they don't have to do a whole lot and/or aren't as good - we'r riding out the old MMO with a skeleton crew and will be working on something new, YIPPEE!!! Neither option sounds particularly appealing to me. It's been awfully quiet on the DEV part lately, haven't you noticed? ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:38:00 - [75] Edited by: Ruze on 27/08/2008 16:38:14 The 'more is better' is only one business ideal, and it regularly fails. Since we're talking the real world here, the proof is evident. You have a lot of very big 'more is better' stores and businesses, and a whole bunch of half-rate competitors that can't compete, simply because the product they wish to sell (in short, everything) is already done by another. Specialty marketing, on the other hand, can allow businesses to survive and actually profit, with a far smaller customer base. Many said 'niche' companies and businesses can all exist. The competition here lies in who the customer being presented to is, and how good the product. In specialty marketing, the customer often pays more to receive a much higher-end product. For a very long time, I have valued EvE as a niche market ideal, and have loved it because of that. While many other players couldn't care (especially if their ideals come out on top), the mindset of switching a game from a niche playerbase to a massmarket one is riddled with failure throughout MMO development. Let them do as they wish. If they fall for the 'more is better' trap, they'll fail. Oh, they'll peak, no doubt. But you lose even a moderate percentage of the players who have been playing for three+ years, and replace them with less mature, less devoted gamers with a max shelf-life attention span of three months. EvE experiences six months of the highest subscription rates ever. A year later, you notice a plateau. A year and a half later, you see the decline. Check the records of every MMO on the block. CCP can't compete with a 'softcore' MMO like many that will be released late this year and throughout next year, not when they have been designed from the start to have the environment these 'floating' gamers seek (in a word, 'easiness'). Eh, if you don't have fun in a game, don't pay. Only dish the money if your willing to put in the time. Else your wasting it. Only real way to voice your opinion in the MMO community (besides a flame-riddled forum post) is with your pocket book. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:38:00 - [76] That totally means that all they care about is the monies. I'm sure they're sitting there, reading this and going, "That guy is so right, we hate all of you!" Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:42:00 - [77] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 16:43:00 Originally by: Ruze amazingly good post, including the last part I have and I will. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:48:00 - [78] Originally by: Ephyra Chamos What kind of buisness modal for a MMO wouldn't care about subscriptions? To the people who profit from CCP, subscription numbers are the only thing that matters. Afterall, how good do you think they could make the game with only 100k subscribers, and the ever escallating cost of living we have? Yes and no. Subscription numbers matter, but they are only one element. Subscription lenghts are another major one, as are costs associated with a larger playerbase. The critical piece they want is a good ratio of costs to profits, and raw increases in player base are not always the way to do that. Beyond that, EvE is a nitch game. One of the balancing acts nitch games have to do being differnt enough to keep a good solid playerbase while being similiar enough to draw in players. But if they become too similiar to other games then two things happen: (1) you start loosing the playerbase who were there because of the nitch functionality (2) you end up being in direct competition with the bigger fish, so you have a hard time holding on to the new subscribers. This gets into the entire 'WoW in space' bit you keep hearing. No, CCP will not make EvE 'Wow in space',.. why? because they would go out of buisness if they tried to compete with WoW directly. They can adjust the game to make it more attractive to a larger group of people, but they will keep the nitch functionality because they have too.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:50:00 - [79] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 16:43:00 Originally by: Ruze amazingly good post, including the last part I have and I will. I've kinda lost a little interest myself, but it's been building. More or less, I'm waiting on ambulation I'm actually a little bit disappointed with the games on the market at the moment. Really looking for something sci-fi, but 'realistic' (i.e. not Warhammer 40k). FPS, strategic, flight simulation ... I really do love EvE. Beautiful game, great content. But being the captain of a megaton space-barge isn't always the height of interests. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 17:04:00 - [80] Feels almost like an IM session. :-) Originally by: Cygnus Zhada @Glengrant: That's the point really, there is no one thing that stands out. I look at it from a management/company POV rather than ingame specifics. Oh - my mistake then. I thought we were talking about this game Eve that you just quit (or so I took from your thread title). So - it's nothing specific in the game then that bothers you? Strange reason to quit IMHO ("nice game, but didn't like where the company might be going - perhaps - if I interpreted them right"). ;-) But your choice of course. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada I'll try to highlight some aspects. Thanks. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada - a while time ago (1-2 years or something can't remember) all of a sudden there was dev blog which kinda stated "Right, this is how we've been doing things, this is how we're going to do things and oh; we have a goal of attaining 300k subscriptions". Yup - I remember that. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada First two parts are good, change happens; you've been somewhere and now you're gonna change some stuff. no problem there. But the last part should set off some alarms. Sorry - didn't. And don't see why it should. I always assumed they wanted 300k subs, and 500k and 1 m. CCP is a for-profit company, not a bunch of masochists who say no to money - or would you? The questions is not how many subs they want to sell (plenty no doubt) - but what they would do to the game to get them. In my experience CCP is a company that cares a lot about its game and it's obvious that they developed something that they would like themselves. Now - if Sony would have bought Eve I would fully excpect them to milk it till its dry and dead (see SWG). But so far CCP always managed to keep true to the fundamentals. I don't fully agree with every single design decision they make - but it would be strange otherwise. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers, And that's your mistake right there. Your assumption they didn't care about subscriptions. Of course they did. Always. They could have done a board game and sold 10k of them - but they made a MMO and when you make a MMO you care very much about numbers. They cared about how and with what they get those numbers. They obviously have a design vision that makes Eve a bit different from most other games (single universe, death hurts, can be harsh, challenging, open) - but you can want both. Have a well designed challenging game that is successfull. Who wouldn't want that? Originally by: Cygnus Zhada And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen. And they seem to have alienated you - though you have difficulties explaining what spefici part of the game annoyed: Actually you said above that it is noting specific min the game itself - which brings us full circle back to what has CCP actually done wrong? Originally by: Cygnus Zhada That single number goal means a whole lot; To you perhaps. To me it's just an interim number. At what what number is CCP an evil sell-out? Why not 100k - or 750k? What's so special about 300k? Originally by: Cygnus Zhada it means that the goals of CCP have changed, Just a moment ... [I get to my time machine ...] [...back] ... ok I just went back to early 2003 and asked the guys from CCP if they want 300k or even 750k subscribers and they said "Hell yeah. That would be wonderful. We need > 100 k to even break even and make a bit of money to pay for all that hardware and bandwidth we'll need". :-) [Historical note: According to an interview years back - CCP almost went bankcrupt in 2004 or so] I'm sorry mate but to me the idea that CCP ever thought that 300k players is too much is silly. :-) ... --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 17:04:00 - [81] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada All of a sudden it went from "lets make a cracking pewpew game" to "moar money!!!". Don't kid yourself. They always wanted to make money. And so wanted their investors. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada There is ofcourse nothing wrong with wanting high profit on investment but from a customer's point of view I will have my reservations about how much they still have my wellbeing and concerns as a first priority, if I initially was attracted to the game because of it's niche and different gameplay? Sure - fair enough. But you said above that you don't have specific problems with Eve. This all seems to boil down to what you think/fear CCP might be doing to the game in the future, based on the faulty assumption that their goals havew changed drastically. If pursuing lots of subs (as they always did) doesn't ruin the game (and it hasn't so far - nor has anything being announced that sounds like they plan to do so) then what exactly is the problem. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Because to attract more people they will have to look elswhere, and to attract those new people they will have to offer them things they're accustomed to, that sound familiar and not at all too radical. You're making this up out of thin air. The MMO market as a whole is growing. So even if the potential percentage for fabled classic harsh eve is a low percentage - the absolute pool of potential subscribers has grown a lot over the years. There's a ready supply of people who grow tired of the simple stuff in WoW and look for something beyond that. And then there's the fallout of failures like E&B and SWG that provided Eve with an influx of fresh blood. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada In other words; in order to attain their goal they will have to conform to the general public, moving from a niche game and attitude towards a more moderate way of doing things. To oversimplify and exxagerate; they'll have to make WOW in space (I know, corny but you get my point). And again with the unfounded assumptions. As you quite rightly state yourself they won't out-wow WoW. So, lucky for us they don't even try. Instead they can harvest the players unsatisfied with their lvl 70 grinders. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada I don't WANT WOW in space, I want EVE in space. 100% agreed. Or rather I do want the above. You seem to be leaving. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada That is the problem that EVE had; overall good ideas and amazing game, but shitty on the details. Well - in specific cases I would no doubt agree with you that some details are sub-optimal (ok shitty even :-) ) - but as a general statement I want explanations because I don't agree. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada So, they're alienating a part of the older clientele, in favor of new customers (which, if the numbers work out correctly is good for them). And yet you never explained what those features that favour new customers over the good old players are. I would like to know - being among the supposed victims here after all. Also there are all those threads on GD where fresh pilots whine abput how they can never catch up (< utter fail in understanding eve mechanics based on lvl based assumptions in their part), or how CCP only caters to the veteran power player with all those capitals, cyno-jammers and stuff that's only for 0.0 pvpers. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs What- and veteran eve players don't want flawless gameplay, proper details and less bugs? This is getting really silly. ;-) I for one want, pretty please, a game that's flawless, well-detailed and bugfree. Alsoo you somehow overlooked all those threads where veteran eve players complained about exactly those things and how some bugs are in the game for way too long. And BTW - big piece of software that's bugfree - no such thing ever existed. ... --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 17:05:00 - [82] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs What- and veteran eve players don't want flawless gameplay, proper details and less bugs? This is getting really silly. ;-) I for one want, pretty please, a game that's flawless, well-detailed and bugfree. Alsoo you somehow overlooked all those threads where veteran eve players complained about exactly those things and how some bugs are in the game for way too long. And BTW - big piece of software that's bugfree - no such thing ever existed. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada because they're used to that as that is what blizzard did SO well with WOW and their other games; it WORKS.EVE cannot provide that. EVE works too. I agree that Blizzard is good at designing games and making them well-rounded. But when iz comes to MMOs this is an apple and oranges comparison. WoW attempts less - so it's easier to get things right. Let's compare again when WoW works without shards, does not prohibit pvp anywhere, has a complex and completely player driven market economy and allows players to scam and kill their neighbours everywhere. Blizzard kept things simple. The simple they did very very well - as with their previous games. But what they attempted is much less than Eve - or none of us would be here. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada So, they might get new people short term but it is my opinion that they will be unable to retain them long term. And yet - in my experience - Eve is very good at retaining people and has a very high rate of people coming back after a break. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Do you understand my 'fear' for the long term implications these decisions and effects will have for the long term players?[q/uote] I share your distaste what you think will happen. We differ in that I have yet to see any of that in Eve or even an announcement that's on the horizon that hints at such. Let's continue this discussion when you come back next year. :-) --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 17:11:00 - [83] The 7 months average is actually an old number that I remember from a blog 1 or 2 years back. Nothing new here. Also that's not as short as you think. Consider how many players test out a game and leave after a few days or weeks. And then let's not forget the high rate of people coming back to Eve after a break of a few months or so. I know people who returned the 3rd time by now. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 17:16:00 - [84] The world is full of businesses (or remains thereof) that went wrong because of thinking big, or because they let sweet talking marketing/management jokers take control. Fact is; CCP's focus and attention is devided and possibly shifted. Lets hope I'm wrong. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Baredil Real Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.27 17:17:00 - [85] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Because they were idealists and players first, and a company second (or even third). That is what attracted me (and I guess several others) to the game in the first place. Unfortunately, idealism doesn't pay the bills. It would be great if it were otherwise. It's not. If a company doesn't grow, it dies.
Vincent Gaines Avis de Captura	Posted - 2008.08.27 18:22:00 - [86] Well, my sub's about to run out and I just picked up 40k 5th ed, so I'm going to wait to see if this new rash of stupid ideas ends. No you can't have my stuff
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.27 18:33:00 - [87] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Unless ofcourse CCP IS thinking short term, for a reason; Possibly the earlier mentioned fact that the client is a behemoth they really can't (be arsed to) control anymore. And ofcourse perhaps the new MMO that they hope will do well, removing the need for EVE in the first place. If that is the case then they're doing a good job of suckering in as many players as they possibly can in a short amount of time. Well done. I'm inclined to agree with this theory. World of Darkness is the big deal now. It looks like Eve is just a way to fund it. Minimum investment, maximum revenue. Eve is just a cash-cow to milk in order to feed their new baby. It sucks, but it really looks like it is. Imagine if all the investment (and dev time) that's going into WOD was instead going into eve? The whole thing stinks. I'm not at the stage where I cancel my subscriptions, but that point gets closer all the time.
Uzume Ame Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.08.27 18:57:00 - [88] I may give you credit about that, that the company has sifted focus to this new MMORPG, but that does not mean nothing, why? The company has grown from 3 to 300 staff, and a lot of them are still working ov EvE. They can do both things. Also as EvE keeps its core features (and it does) is right, I'm fine until a new better game that competes with EvE is released, and it will. Then they better wake up or close down the servers. But you know, if EvE remains profitable, they will keep working on it, even if it's not a full new game. If EvE has nothing to offer to you then quit, nothing else will make them 'change their opinion'. Teh failure of a signature.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:04:00 - [89] Originally by: Lady Valory For me that is a serious problem--the constant retooling of my characters. No matter how many skillpoints or how many years I've played, I cant get serious traction because the see-saw of the game is so much... The only solution I have is to make billions of isk, fund lots of accounts, and max out every playstyle. Little of that is available to everyone else, however... By retooling over the years, so many vet players have done this... Trained for sniper minmatar stuff and artilleries--then alphastrike gets nerfed... Trained for zealots and ganking, then damage mods get nerfed... Trained for missiles for easy PVE, then missiles got balanced with about 1 year of new skills with RMR... Trained for the T2 lottery, ended up with "rage thorn rocket bpo" then all that gets nerfed... Trained for the old school courier missions (remember those where u hauled 50000m3 in a freighter for 9000LP and a bucket of trade goods like 500000 antibiotics! God, I miss those!) and then they got nerfed... Trained shield skills for the nighthawk... got nerfed... Then trained minmatar and every godly speed skill to 5, and now that is getting nerfed... Trained for all drones and the mymerdon 5 heavies... got nerfed... Trained up max nos skills for the NOS domi... got nerfed... Trained up carriers to haul for mining ops... got nerfed... Trained up scanning to be better at pvp scanning people... got nerfed... I'm sure there are more examples, but I guess I understand the OPs 'vet' rage, but I've kinda shrugged off frustration with in favor of a 'train it all approach' with the hopes of having 1-2 decent toons at all times... YOu fail with FOTM training youre whole eve lifetime is a complete failure.
Gruxella Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:06:00 - [90] Edited by: Gruxella on 27/08/2008 19:06:09 I don't even know what you guys are complaining about. I'm guessing change is bad? Welcome to eve? ---- VHI - We Haul Your Cargo For Free ---- We Miss you Red 7.
Merlunus Caldari Subtle Romance	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:07:00 - [91] Don't go away mad, just go away. MERLUNUS
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:07:00 - [92] OK - does anybody here have any actual facts (as in not conjured out of thin air and prejudice) about what resources go into WOD? I'm sure it's a lot given that it didn't exist yet and it takes much more effort to get it going then to maintain an existing game - even if you still care very much for that 5+ years old game. Also with the money they make from growing number of users CCP can easily finance more employees for both Eve and WOD. Last but not least - Eve is a proven product that works and brings in money. To just milk it for short term profit and bet the house on WOD that might be a big success or total failure would be crazy. Why would they do that? And all that without considering that CCP still loves Eve. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Kage Getsu Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:12:00 - [93] Another one bites the dust. Can I have your stuff? _________________________________________________________
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:21:00 - [94] Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 19:23:17 Quote: Trained for sniper minmatar stuff and artilleries--then alphastrike gets nerfed... Sniping and Minmatar stuff - still work. Quote: Trained for zealots and ganking, then damage mods get nerfed... Zealots still do damage and ganking still works Quote: Trained for missiles for easy PVE, then missiles got balanced with about 1 year of new skills with RMR... Missiles still work. Quote: Trained for the T2 lottery, ended up with "rage thorn rocket bpo" then all that gets nerfed... Got more than I did. :-) Quote: Trained for the old school courier missions (remember those where u hauled 50000m3 in a freighter for 9000LP and a bucket of trade goods like 500000 antibiotics! God, I miss those!) and then they got nerfed... Can't comment - never did those. Quote: Trained shield skills for the nighthawk... got nerfed... Shields, Nighthawk - still works. Quote: Then trained minmatar and every godly speed skill to 5, and now that is getting nerfed... Minmatar will still have fast ships and speed will still be an advantage - just not as insanely overdone as now. Get over it. Quote: Trained for all drones and the mymerdon 5 heavies... got nerfed... Still works - but perhaps not well enough. Grant you this one. Quote: Trained up max nos skills for the NOS domi... got nerfed... NOS, Domi - still work. Quote: Trained up carriers to haul for mining ops... got nerfed... Well - I could have predicted that one. It's a - well- Carrier. Being used as a JF was obviously not its designed purpose. If you're surprised that this gets reigned in - shrug. And it still works as a carrier - right? The role it was actually designed for? And besides the racial carrier skill all your skills still come in handy when flying a JF. So - no really and actual problem after all. Quote: Trained up scanning to be better at pvp scanning people... got nerfed... Scanning still works and still makes a diff for pvp. I don't fault you that you constantly look for the greates advantage - that's natural and cool. It's a given that Eve players will find any design mistake and exploit it to the extreme. Enjoy that while it lasts - but be prepared for the re-balancing when the problem gets too obvious. Everybody whining about nerfs: The <whatever> feature is not gone - just no longer insanely overpowered. Get over it and either make use of the new and just regularly effective feature - or look for the next crack in the design (and don't tell your buddies - as long as only a few people make use of ot and nobody notices - nobody will fix it). --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:59:00 - [95] Candidly, I've stopped giving CCP the benefit of the doubt lately. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sorum Daemoth Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:45:00 - [96] Edited by: Sorum Daemoth on 27/08/2008 21:47:23 tbh CCP can do w/e the ** they want with their game, its their's anyways, you either get mad quit, keep playing or like me, get bored and stop playing cause the eve you loved is gone, CCP really doesnt care cause when a change is made a bunch of people who wouldnt play before play while others stop, they dont lose out in the short run, just the long run, ask anybody that has played DAOC what is going on here.... It's just the decision to be hardcore or mainstream, anybody hardcore doesnt give a what others have to say and do it the way it should be done, if CCP was hardcore eve would not be the same right now, but guys the game back then was hardcore, not CCP, they were never, they just want money man they have gotten corrupt and hired idiots to run the show. You just got WTF EXIT ganked!**
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:48:00 - [97] Yup, TOA wasn't a smart move. Is was Mythic trying to be WOW, hoping to grab a part of their playerbase... ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.08.27 22:16:00 - [98] Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/08/2008 22:17:48 Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/08/2008 22:16:53 i am proble one of the only players left in eve who dose not use jump clones.. i was dead against it when they came out and called it a pussie wow ploy. i still play the game how i wont even though i dont use off much anymore. he is old school and dont skill up well like the newer accounts i have. i started this guy in 2003 with some time off i still keep him going. he reminds me of the good old days in eve when you could pick a one on fight solo. offbeat reminds me of my solo days. i have decided too start him up again.
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.27 22:40:00 - [99] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 27/08/2008 16:40:23 @Ephyra Chamos; CCP have been working on a new MMO, they merged together with WhiteWolf to make use of their expertise on that aspect of MMO's. What you know as Ambulation is nothing more than a trial project to test and work out problems with that sort of engine they're going to use for their new project. A lot (if not most) of the core designers have not been working on EVE for a long time, they have moved to the new one (or left, that can happen ofcourse). They have been replaced by new personel, which in itself doesn't have to be a problem ofcourse. But you gotta ask yourself this; Why move the core designers from your old to your new MMO, if you could have hired new designers for that new MMO as well? Some answers could be; - new ones are cheaper because they don't have to do a whole lot and/or aren't as good - we'r riding out the old MMO with a skeleton crew and will be working on something new, YIPPEE!!! Neither option sounds particularly appealing to me. It's been awfully quiet on the DEV part lately, haven't you noticed? I know CCP are/will be producing a wohitewolf mmo, but that doesnt mean they are done with eve. How do you know the core developers have moved? Does it not make sense to use the newer guys on the stable project anyway? Why release the fancy new graphics and FW if their done with Eve? I just find your reasoning a little overly simplistic whineage.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.27 22:56:00 - [100] Call me sceptic, tbfh I really don't mind. Here's your link ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Ephyra Chamos	Posted - 2008.08.28 09:31:00 - [101] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Call me sceptic, tbfh I really don't mind. Here's your link Wow 3 people. The other 290-odd must really be feeling the strain.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:01:00 - [102] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Yup, TOA wasn't a smart move. Is was Mythic trying to be WOW, hoping to grab a part of their playerbase... DAOC ToA was released in October 2003 and WoW more than one year later, in November 2004. So your logic that this was an attempt to drag players away from WoW is kinda ... wrong ;-) I was playing on Gaheris (PvE) at that time, and it was probably one of the few servers where the players actually enjoyed the content. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
AeonOfTime Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:23:00 - [103] Counter-wall of text incoming. Cygnus, after reading through the whole thread I see your point. I started playing right in time with the Red Moon Rising expansion, so I don't qualify as a veteran, but I have seen the trend you describe. EVE has a reputation of being a hard game, one with a steep learning curve and in which you are never really safe. I can attest to both, and even though I don't really like the PvP side, I have grown to love the game. To be perfectly honest, I don't mind EVE getting a bit more mainstream in the sense that it may become easier to play. Call me a carebear, a wussy or whatever - I like having my little corner of the universe and am perfectly content not kicking anyone's butt apart from some NPCs. There is only one thing that will make me quit EVE: not having fun playing anymore. A game is just that: a means to have some fun, in whatever form that may be. If EVE today is not fun for you anymore, I understand your quitting completely. However, I would never quit because I think EVE is going in the wrong direction, I would wait for it get there. So far all the nerfs, expansions and co have not stripped the game of its core appeal, at least not for me. I am not exactly successful at playing the game (in short, I suck) but I still have fun. From mining to mission running, ratting, probing, manufacturing, running the corp, chatting with buddies, finally having found a space opera world to dwell in... So has EVE really lost all its appeal for you? -- Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com The solo player's corporation - Syrkos Technologies
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:28:00 - [104] Originally by: Glengrant OK - does anybody here have any actual facts (as in not conjured out of thin air and prejudice) about what resources go into WOD? I'm sure it's a lot given that it didn't exist yet and it takes much more effort to get it going then to maintain an existing game - even if you still care very much for that 5+ years old game. Also with the money they make from growing number of users CCP can easily finance more employees for both Eve and WOD. Last but not least - Eve is a proven product that works and brings in money. To just milk it for short term profit and bet the house on WOD that might be a big success or total failure would be crazy. Why would they do that? And all that without considering that CCP still loves Eve. CCP just retooled the EVE engine and they're looking to add an entirely new type of gameplay to it for which they're consulting architects and fashion designers - it isn't a quick moneyspinner. Doesn't look like they're giving up on EVE any time soon to me. I can imagine it still going in 2010 with another engine upgrade. And yeah. Cash Cows are called Cash Cows because you can milk them long term. I think the simple reality is that we all spend far too much time playing videogames. Invest enough time for a part time job into a videogame for three, four years and the flaws in that arrangement become painfully obvious.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:33:00 - [105] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 10:34:03 @Victor Kruger Yes, WOW was made on the same day it went live, they coded it, tested it and put it out in 1 day! At no point had they been working on it for several years, nor had there been alpha's, beta's or anything odd like that. Also; no other MMO publisher would be stupid enough to learn about their new competitor and to anticipate it's launch, I mean that would just be... stupid? ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:35:00 - [106] I'm still waiting for the "parting" part The topic is a lie! My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:37:00 - [107] No parting gift for me? [hrhr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:39:00 - [108] Originally by: AeonOfTime So has EVE really lost all its appeal for you? Short term? no But I think long term, and thus I refuse to invest time/effort into a game where I feel development is stalling. Mind you, not neccesarily HAS stalled. Again, long term. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:40:00 - [109] Originally by: Dihania No parting gift for me? My account's still active, and it wouldn't be done with this char anyway. Besides, you wouldn't want this parting gift. ------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway
AeonOfTime Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:53:00 - [110] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: AeonOfTime So has EVE really lost all its appeal for you? Short term? no But I think long term, and thus I refuse to invest time/effort into a game where I feel development is stalling. Mind you, not neccesarily HAS stalled. Again, long term. So you are resting all this on the possibility that you won't like the game anymore in a few months from now. But you can't be sure, so why even bother? We don't have any info on CCP's internal development plan, so all we can do is assume what's going on, and that won't get us very far. From a developer standpoint, the earlier argument that Ambulation is just a testing ground for the White Wolf MMO is not really a bad thing. It's just sound thinking, developing a system that you will be able to use for several projects. Im my developer world that means both games will benefit from the system, and as a result its further development has more guarantees. If I may make a (lame, traditional) suggestion: take a 1 month break from the game, let your char train something really long and recover some perspective on things. You are getting all worked up, and for what? A bloody game. I mean okay, I cursed some single player games I bought in the past, but then they were not worth investing hours ranting about them - unless that's your idea of fun (I've seen worse) :) -- Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com The solo player's corporation - Syrkos Technologies
Raindeth FACTION Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:26:00 - [111] If I can mangle a quote from the very wise Scroobius Pip "Thou shalt not stop liking a (band / game) just because they have become popular..." Reference use only
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:30:00 - [112] It's just a band
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:31:00 - [113] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada It's just a band And you're just a man Allegedly. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Cygnus Zhada It's just a band And you're just a man Allegedly. You fail to understand the link, if you're going to reply make it worthwhile :)
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:36:00 - [115] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Dihania No parting gift for me? My account's still active, and it wouldn't be done with this char anyway. Besides, you wouldn't want this parting gift. ROTFL So - that's really it? The game at the moment is fine and enjoyable - but you fear it might go wrong long term? :-) Hey man - you feel like you feel and if you rather play something else - your choice entirely. But that's one of the silliest reasons to quit ever. ;-) Re comments about Ambulation: IMHO it's more a matter of "Hey guys - we build this avatar engine anyway for WOD - let's do some extra graphics and have a version for Eve. Would make an impressive patch and STFU all those detractors whoe wine about no avatars in Eve.". If that makes a test case for WOD at the same time - extra bonus. And BTW - from the comments that they try to think of ways to not make everybody run around (and jump up) all day because that would be silly and destroy immersion - props to CCP to care about such details - because I hate that in other MMOs. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:36:00 - [116] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada You fail to understand the link, if you're going to reply make it worthwhile :) I don't actually, i meant it in context-out-of-main-point. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Raindeth FACTION Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:43:00 - [117] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada It's just a band Agreed! "Eve? Just a game."
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:47:00 - [118] @Glengrant Are you sure? In all seriousness, to me it isn't. IF I'm going to waste a large part of my free time and a bit of cash on something I would like it to last a bit, especially when it comes to a long term game like EVE. This is not an FPS which you buy, complete in 5 hours, replay once or twice and try the multiplayer a bit. MMO's by design, and certainly EVE, are long term "investments". NOT thinking about the long term viability and design decisions would be rather short sighted methinks. To me I see CCP (have been) going in a direction that makes me lose my initial (and rather important) attraction to the game. Apart from that I feel that already they have been shifting assets and development time away from EVE, because no matter how much of a fanboy one is, you gotta admit that at some point this will happen. Perhaps I'm being more pessimistic about it than others. But then I am a bit odd; I actually buy vegetables at a grocery, I buy meat from a butcher and I buy my bread from a bakery. Not because it makes me feel better or special, but because I notice the difference and am prepared to put in extra effort and cash to get that, while at the same time supporting the losing battle against the supermarkets. In the end we'll see who's right or wrong.
AeonOfTime Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:11:00 - [119] You have obviously already made up your mind about this, as you don't let any arguments shake your tree. At this point, I don't think it's necessary to continue the conversation. As you said yourself so fittingly, Originally by: Cygnus Zhada In the end we'll see who's right or wrong. -- Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com The solo player's corporation - Syrkos Technologies
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:31:00 - [120] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada @Glengrant Are you sure? In all seriousness, to me it isn't. Right - I get that. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada IF I'm going to waste a large part of my free time and a bit of cash on something I would like it to last a bit, especially when it comes to a long term game like EVE. I'm with you on that one. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada This is not an FPS which you buy, complete in 5 hours, replay once or twice and try the multiplayer a bit. Agreed. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada MMO's by design, and certainly EVE, are long term "investments". NOT thinking about the long term viability and design decisions would be rather short sighted methinks. Still agreeing. :-) Originally by: Cygnus Zhada To me I see CCP (have been) going in a direction that makes me lose my initial (and rather important) attraction to the game. Apart from that I feel that already they have been shifting assets and development time away from EVE, because no matter how much of a fanboy one is, you gotta admit that at some point this will happen. Perhaps I'm being more pessimistic about it than others. And that's where we divert in our assessment. CCP now develops a second game - like so many game companies before them. Concentrating on just one game makes no sense to a company that intends to stay in business long term. As a plus for either game - the extra income stream can help weather bad times. So if WOD is reasonably successfull it can mean a longer lifetime for Eve. 2 Scenarios: 1: 2010: Sony releases "Star Wars 2" - it's a great success and Eves subs crash to 50k - after a few months CCP shuts down. 2: Thanks to diversified income CCP weathers the frenzy about SW 2 until a year later Sony again ruins the SW brand and Eve players come back en masse. Please note that they have many more employees than when they started and that a mature game needs less developers than a new designed one. So - without having inside information about resource allocation - there's per se no reason that WOD actually detracts from Eve development. And let's not forget that there is actual potential for synergy here - would Eve have gotten Ambulation this soon without WOD in the making where the avatar engine is needed anyway and could then be re-used at low cost in eve? Probably not. Not everybody actually cares much about ambulation (me included - might be nice - but I don't need it) - but plenty of Eve players have asked for this from the very beginning and I know somebody who says that this is one of the things that turns him off about Eve. He likes much about Eve, is a hardcore gamer - but misses avatars in Eve. At the end of the day - I have seen no arguments that are convincing that CCP somehow abandons Eve or doesn't care about it anymore or drastically changed direction. And as I said above - it would make 0 sense for them to crash a game for short-term money when the alternative is far from certain to ever being a monetary success. Sure - nothing is forever and Eve will probably vanish one sad day. But at the moment that day is not foreseeable. And the same is true for any other game you might want to play. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada In the end we'll see who's right or wrong. True enough. And thanks for a calm discussion. For somebody who is unsatisfied you are among the very few who can argue without getting into an unreasonable rage. I'll buy you a drink at the 10 year anniversary party of Eve. :-) --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Lothros Andastar Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:36:00 - [121] CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF OH PLZ!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:39:00 - [122] OP's logic is valid, but not necessarily sound. - DesuSigs
Ethen Bejorn	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:39:00 - [123] Excellent post OP. I think you indicated the sentiments of many older long term players, but I think your post is worthless as CCP has already lost the people who made this game great and the new ones do not have the ability or vision to make this game into what it was supposed to be. Yay Ambulation!
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:57:00 - [124] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Besides, you gotta admit he's a clown. Klezz, is that you?! Don't leave EVE. I promise I will shape up .. honestly "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:10:00 - [125] I wish I could say I think you're completely wrong, but I don't. But we'll see, not ready to give up just yet.
Yelram Minmatar AnTi.	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:38:00 - [126] Good post. Sorry to see another old player leave.
miss elena Minmatar The Geriatrics	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:36:00 - [127] well, i guess, as the years passes and the whole mmo industry is growing,with more games released and more people being aware of this type of entertainment, its more or less unavoidable that a larger part of the playerbase will be made up of people from outside the older gaming groups. and my guess is that many of these people is expecting to be entertained rather than feeding a hobby that they have nurtured for a long time in different forms like roleplaying or tabletop games.It will be interesting to see how ccp is going to tackle this dilemma if they want to keep the hard nature of the game they once created and at the same time finding new players.
Jimbob Jumbo Macabre Votum Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:38:00 - [128] Look, I get to poast in a "CANIHASURSTUFFZ?" thread !
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:13:00 - [129] And doom did rain down upon the earth from the heavens, as it had since the creation of the forums. You're not the first one to predict the game's death, you won't be the last, and you're just as wrong as the rest of them.
Sam Ryder	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:50:00 - [130] Please dont leave, We will miss you! I dont think we can take the pain, why dont you stay another day!?
GateScout	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:53:00 - [131] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Ok, to try and have the new CCP understand a few things I will explain what made it possible for the new CCP to actually have a job in the first place. Delusions of Relevancy. P.S. You're wrong.
Kor Korenfield	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:26:00 - [132] Meh, why do people make up all kinds of BS to ratify the fact they just got tired of the game.
Nightsheir	Posted - 2008.08.29 11:15:00 - [133] Im surprised that the topic isnt locked yet . What op says about is completely right . He is worried that the developers of eve are not working for it anymore . Its damn easy to realise that , i know people that can create games in 1 day out of nothing , no library no prepared work . So thats what a capable developer can do , although none of them are eve or even tetris maybe. But , that 1 day work is easily more than last 3 patches eve spammed on us. While the game still has major bugs , exploits , failing systems , ships with no purpose , bot miners , everything are still there and they are not being worked on. And while i was finaly waiting for some effort, some patch , they spammed fw. Whats that , 5 lines of code ? Just input 4 faction corps into game and make them permawar between eachother, there you go , a new patch ! So yes , eve is abandoned . Think whatever you want to . You dont need to read dev's minds to see this, nor have to be a very old player. Just look at what they have done in the last 3 year , the patches and spammed content . None of them are actualy something new or fix to ancient bugs , they are merely new imputs to already existing database's with different hue textures. And yes, boost amarr . Tired of playing with laser toyguns.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.08.29 11:45:00 - [134] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 29/08/2008 11:47:07 I agree with the OP. And I don't think he's whining about nanos. To be honest, I haven't even thought about nanos much recently, though I have been playing less. When I started EVE there was a deep sense of culture. Everyone was out to make money: miners were mining in lowsec in 5-10 person gangs, mission runners were exploring for the best agent in the lowest security, pirates were feared and the community was very respecting of them, people were getting scammed left and right by intelligent scammers and escrow was cool as hell. Now we have the diluted version of the original EVE. It's true, really. So many things have come into play to make EVE an easier game to play. Not so much that EVE was a "difficult" game but it has always had a high learning curve. I spent an entire DAY doing the tutorial. It was that confusing. And I almost quit too... had it not been for spaceships with lasers. Now a lot of things are different. It has me apprehensive and sad as to what CCP may be thinking next, but as I am a person in a world of capitalism, I realize that CCP will try to turn every buck they can because they are a business. Businesses are in it to make money FIRST (always). They have to pay things up front before they can even make a dime, so you have to take that into account. I don't have a crystal ball that tells me what CCP is thinking. But then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that CCP is here to make money. I have seen literally dozens of bits of marketing around the internet trying to draw people unawares into EVE and it is disheartening. EVE-Online used to be a game that came from word-of-mouth with awards for best PVP and more. CCP to this day has the award on the front page from a 2003 June PC Gamer magazine of "90%". CCP, don't leave your game. It was once a game of distinction, and now it is slowly turning into a pop game. www.siigarikitawa.com
Huntyourbots	Posted - 2008.08.29 12:32:00 - [135] I agree with Nightsheir, the patches which have been churned out are generally to cause hype and to sink your isk and time. the developers they have working on spamming "content" could do a lot more if they fixed their current products problems which have been around for far too long. the amount of hype they created about FW was a joke, biggest isk sink i have seen yet. I get the impression that the devs who created a game with so much potential and such great ideas are either off doing design on another game, completely stumped with ambulaion and cannot take a week to examine the degrading state of their game, or in hawaii enjoying peoples monthly payments. the nano nerf is the first sign of actual dev intervention i have seen in a long time, and it is so very overdue that i'm thinking some eve player must have met them in the bar in honolulu and complained in person, only explaination i can think of. I dont think they will turn this game into a simple cash machine for a new project, but i do think that at some point a better design company will come along and buy eve because of its player base and do some improvements to the gameplay and interface bugs instead of hyping up fake content patches that take no more than a week to program. thats me 2 cents.

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