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Star system player limit hotfix deployed Monday 22nd September.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)
14of12	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:41:00 - [61] If star system near jita become full, is there also thought of situation you can jump jita out any more because the next system has traffic jam and the red light to go out is on. Problem so many new people start around jita because there are most lvl 1 agents. Why don't make rens the minimater trade center. With only minimater goods, jita or yulai the caldari trade center, amarr the amarr trade center and oursalaet the galente trade center. And what of all missions agents taht are surrounded through eve, away bonus because you can not jump in a system anymore or even worse your mission runs out of time. There goes your standing. It also an opportunity for ccp too drive more people too 0.0. IN 0.0 you can always get on eve most system are figurly empty. AK
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:44:00 - [62] least the cap was removed remember carebears arn't people they are flying pinyata's ]
Patrice Macmahon Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:46:00 - [63] Originally by: 14of12 Why don't make rens the minimater trade center. With only minimater goods, jita or yulai the caldari trade center, amarr the amarr trade center and oursalaet the galente trade center. CCP didn't pick jita. The players picked jita because of its intrisic location value. Over time the networking effect took hold and it snowballed. Rens does not have the same location value, and it's networking effect value can only be generated when more pilots and traders start operating out of there. Rens has reached its natural location/networking effect value, and it would take considerable effort to inflate it. As far as I can see, CCP does not directly point and say "There is where were planting the newest hub." Players do that. The Intakis have an obligatin to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Avon [...] The situation now exists where when the cap is in place it is impossible for someone to enter Jita and interact directly with characters there, which is very un-eve. [...] People are generally social creatures, and it is in their nature to come together in one place. Game design has to acknowledge that, and then try like hell to discourage it in a way players feel is rewarding. The problem is people, the solution is design. Caps and kneejerks are bad, not because of what they are, but because of what they represent - a lack of understanding of the real problem. You have a big point when you point out that a solution should be sought in game design, because the problem is caused by human nature. However, somewhere at the top, you also have a point when you say limiting interaction between players is un-EVE, probably because the freedom in choosing what you do including interaction makes the whole sandbox model thing work in the first place: you decide where you go and what you do, the game doesn't force you to do anything. Now how do you propose to control the behavior of people without allowing them to choose what they do? You'll probably suggest reward for spreading out and penalties on crowding, but doesn't that just break the whole sandbox thing a bit? And of course everybody would have liked to have this solved this problem 2 years ago, but since it hasn't (and it probably won't be solved in the next year either), you might have to resort to unlikable QuickHacks(TM) like a cap. Sometimes you need to keep the patients heart beating before you operate on him .... sure he should have started working out to stay fit so he didn't have his heart give out, but it's not helpful pointing that out over and over again when he just survived a heart attack. BTW, I think Factional Warfare has some potential to alleviate some of the Jita problems by making other market hubs more valuable to milita pilots who cannot just stumble into enemy territory to buy some more guns and ammo. I hope more changes with subtle side effects like this will be made in the future, making New Eden more fun for all of us. And to all of you criticizing the EVE technology & CCP approach: you have obviously no clue what you're talking about when you think fixing this is easy in ANY way. I have no insight in distribution of manpower within CCP but I'm hoping they see scalability as their biggest hurdle to grow beyond what EVE is now and invest manhours accordingly. But I also know that no matter how many people you throw at the problem, it won't be an easy fix without breaking the success factors in the game.
Reptzo Channel 4 News Team	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:40:00 - [65] I must say it is nice to see so much communication from the dev team. As of late you guys have been quite, so very glad to see the openness. Keep up the good work.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:48:00 - [66] Originally by: Carinzia Just link the damn trade hubs with an instant/time delayed courier system and all this lag will go away. But we all know CCP won't do it, they're not as smart as Blizzard when they solved the old 'Lagforge' problem by linking the faction auction houses together. They're apparently smart enough to not follow your advice, which is entirely contrary to what Eve is based on. There is no instant magic transportation. It's one of the things that make Eve Eve. If you can't understand this basic concept, you should just go back to WoW.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:56:00 - [67] Originally by: DaDutchDude Now how do you propose to control the behavior of people without allowing them to choose what they do? You'll probably suggest reward for spreading out and penalties on crowding, but doesn't that just break the whole sandbox thing a bit? Not really. The idea was to encourage a regional approach to Eve, using backstory to enrich the enviroment. The basic premise was that building the "right" thing in the "right" places in stations of the "right" corp would give increasing bonuses to production speed or reduced cost. The Raven, for example is an Ishukone ship. Having good Ishukone & Caldari State standings, along with building in and Ishukone station in Caldari space, would lead to shorter production times, and an effective ME bonus. I'll see if I can find the thread about it, it had some great discussion. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Stormwind Bloodfeather Minmatar Sogdian Traders Inc	Posted - 2008.09.23 00:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Avon Originally by: DaDutchDude Now how do you propose to control the behavior of people without allowing them to choose what they do? You'll probably suggest reward for spreading out and penalties on crowding, but doesn't that just break the whole sandbox thing a bit? Not really. The idea was to encourage a regional approach to Eve, using backstory to enrich the enviroment. The basic premise was that building the "right" thing in the "right" places in stations of the "right" corp would give increasing bonuses to production speed or reduced cost. The Raven, for example is an Ishukone ship. Having good Ishukone & Caldari State standings, along with building in and Ishukone station in Caldari space, would lead to shorter production times, and an effective ME bonus. I'll see if I can find the thread about it, it had some great discussion. I like this idea. The code work might be a pita though. While on the surface it "sounds" simple and easy you would be re-writing and adding code to the database and when you do that, sometimes other things break you didn't think/expect to break. The testing for this would be a bear but the idea is sound and would fit well within the EVE universe and backstory as well. "Of COURSE we can build that ship faster, cheaper and better than the competitors.. WE DESIGNED IT!" Storm In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy!
NSSQUAD	Posted - 2008.09.23 00:30:00 - [69] i never understood why players dont set up shop a system or 2 over i dont care what you saw your just lazy if you dont have the right skills to use a transport ship and your a trader
Ehronn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.23 00:56:00 - [70] Why not borrow the idea that's currently on the drawing board here http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp?sid=1056770453 Quote: The Interbus Similar to the interweb, but instead of serving up a constant stream of smut and drivel, allows you to have your shopping delivered to your door û provided that your door is within the same constellation, that youÆve paid the fee, tipped the delivery boy etc. Actually, nothing like the interweb at all, apart from the name. :P that would help some I'd think hehe. ----------------------- Dysfunctional Playground
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.23 03:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Ehronn Why not borrow the idea that's currently on the drawing board here http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp?sid=1056770453 Quote: The Interbus Similar to the interweb, but instead of serving up a constant stream of smut and drivel, allows you to have your shopping delivered to your door û provided that your door is within the same constellation, that youÆve paid the fee, tipped the delivery boy etc. Actually, nothing like the interweb at all, apart from the name. :P that would help some I'd think hehe. Only problem with that is the 100% safe logistics routes it would generate for warring alliances. Buy stuff in empire and have it sent via invulnerable and untraceable npc courier to a low sec station and drop it into an honor tanked jump capable ships cargo hold. Undock and activate cyno to the 0.0 base of your choosing without a single enemy ever knowing how the hell you got resupplied or where the supplies are headed. Interbus will never make it into the game unless there is an npc freighter that physically carries your stuff from purchase station to destination flying from gate to gate. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Hesod Adee Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.23 04:54:00 - [72] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Akita T So... umm... the patch where all agents are moved OUT of Jita is coming out when? What about the patch where all other agents near Jita AVOID sending you to or through Jita? And the patch that adds new (short) Jita-bypass routes AND enables the "avoid Jita" option in the autopilot? It's probably going to be a part of the winter expansion. It's been implemented and is undergoing testing. Does this include a Jita bypass* ? Because if it doesn't, people will be really ***ed when their autopilot plots them a route through Jita only to get stuck at the gate. Making a gate from every system bordering Jita to every other system bordering Jita so that, unless Jita is a waypoint, the fastest route will never take you through Jita.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.23 05:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather Originally by: Avon The idea was to encourage a regional approach to Eve, using backstory to enrich the enviroment. The basic premise was that building the "right" thing in the "right" places in stations of the "right" corp would give increasing bonuses to production speed or reduced cost. The Raven, for example is an Ishukone ship. Having good Ishukone & Caldari State standings, along with building in and Ishukone station in Caldari space, would lead to shorter production times, and an effective ME bonus. I like this idea. ... "Of COURSE we can build that ship faster, cheaper and better than the competitors.. WE DESIGNED IT!" "Don't 'fix' stuff which isn't broken. Industry is NOT broken, so don't change it!" A regional industry approach would increase the need for a jita-like tradehub even more. Because certainly no one want to travel 20 jumps to get a raven, then travel another 20 jumps to get an armageddon and then jump around madly to pick up various fitting stuff. If people need to do the logistics, then they want to do it at least most easily. They want ONE system where they can pick up all the stuff - even if it costs more. Same goes for selling. People do not want to do more boring logistics than necessary, that is why there exist one big huge tradehub. Because you can get there (almost) everything and sell there in large quantities. And the regional building, that is not good. It will only force people into one region and that will be a feedback process which will lead to drastically reduced variety in Eve. An option on the autopilot to avoid traffic jammed systems would help LOTS more and would be much more risk free than changing basic game designs in Eve (remember: Don't 'fix' stuff which isn't broken. Industry is NOT broken, so don't change it!). Alternatively an option that allows to avoid system with xxx people (player chosen) might do the trick also. But I think integration of the live data into the autopilot is a bit of a problem at the moment, it uses only static data as far as I know.
miss elena Minmatar Taurus korps	Posted - 2008.09.23 05:33:00 - [74] I also liked avons proposal about implementing game mechanics to make bussines in native space more easy/profitable.maybe that could be linked to the other issue with lowsec being under populated.i mean maybe some other bonuses could be given to traders/ builders choosing to operate in lowsec. Of course the current open gamemechanic has its benefits both in gameplay and with regard to backstory,we are afterall capsulers and not mere mortals.but the current situation is becomming a bit stale with jita being to important.
Wrayeth Trans Eve Organization	Posted - 2008.09.23 05:58:00 - [75] Edited by: Wrayeth on 23/09/2008 06:01:32 I'm not sure if this has already been thought of, but have you considered having each of the systems connected to Jita share the same market? What I mean by this is the ability to go to Sobaseki and purchase an item in Sobaseki, Jita or any of Jita's other connecting systems and have it appear in your hangar in Sobaseki. (Please note that this would only work for purchases if the pilot is currently docked; remote buy and sell orders would be right out.) Moreover, this could be applied to all market hubs based on dynamic scaling. If x amount of transactions occur in a given system y every day for z days, then systemname y + [all adjacent systems] = market hub. If market hub, then system y + [all adjacent systems] share one market. This check could be performed once every week, every downtime, or whatever best suits. Or some similar if/then statement. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.09.23 07:23:00 - [76] Good Job CCP ... well for once ... let's hope the next expansion won't ruin it ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.23 11:13:00 - [77] I think a fairly simple approach which would solve this problem....Congestion Charge. Broker fees are modified by Standings aswell as skill. but tax is currently only affected by Skill. I suggest that an extra tax is applied to setting up an order (Buy or Sell) this could be standard 1% but is modified by Trade. IE 3 stations Jita IV-IV Major Hub 1 Trillion per day sales Random Lvl 4 mission Hub 50 Billion per day sales Low Sec/0.0 Station 1 Billion Per Day sales Daily volumes per station is worked out at down time and the order tax is calculated. Jita IV - IV 3% order tax Mission Hub 1.5% order Tax Low Sec/0.0 Station 0.01% order tax Numbers can be modified to balance, this way people can still benefit from high population stations but it will cut into margins. I also think this would allow for more inter region trading making it more profitable to list in quieter systems. It would also generate a much needed and fairly huge Isk sink Win/Win

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.09.23 11:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Midas Man I think a fairly simple approach which would solve this problem....Congestion Charge. Broker fees are modified by Standings aswell as skill. but tax is currently only affected by Skill. I suggest that an extra tax is applied to setting up an order (Buy or Sell) this could be standard 1% but is modified by Trade. IE 3 stations Jita IV-IV Major Hub 1 Trillion per day sales Random Lvl 4 mission Hub 50 Billion per day sales Low Sec/0.0 Station 1 Billion Per Day sales Daily volumes per station is worked out at down time and the order tax is calculated. Jita IV - IV 3% order tax Mission Hub 1.5% order Tax Low Sec/0.0 Station 0.01% order tax Numbers can be modified to balance, this way people can still benefit from high population stations but it will cut into margins. I also think this would allow for more inter region trading making it more profitable to list in quieter systems. It would also generate a much needed and fairly huge Isk sink Win/Win Would not work, people will just pay more and still go to Jita because they can get everything in one easy place. This is exactly the sam eissue that is currently being faced by small towns as people go to the large city to buy their shopping. Some very smart people have been trying to come up with solutions with little success. It is not an easy problem with an easy fix. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2008.09.23 12:08:00 - [79] Ok - this isn't an easy solution to code, nor really realistic, but... How about creating a "super-trade-network", that includes one station from each faction. This network can only be accessed when docked in one of those stations, effectively creating their own market and excluding it from the regional one. Whatever you buy in this market, ends up in the station you're docked at. So - if say Amarr and Jita is connected, you look up item A, buys 1000 units at it (which is put up for sale in Jita) and it magically appears in you hangar in Amarr, where you're docked. Of course, this kind of trading comes at a price: x% extra tax - covering transport fees etc etc. The tax rate should be high enough to make it profitable to put stuff up for sale elsewhere than in this super-network, BUT low enough to not make us player create a new Jita. Also - it should be considered very carefully which system/stations should be used for this, in order to not ellimitate the need to actually transport stuff yourself. Tax should probably also be calculated two ways: one part with actual sell order value, and one using a base value (to avoid ppl exploiting it by "selling" stuff just to move it from A to B (read: stuff that aren't traded in high volume where there are no set buy orders) _______________________________ __ __ l l_l l l _ AVE A NICE l__l l__l ___ l ' . l D i l.___, 'AY _______________________________ Yggdrassil
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.23 12:32:00 - [80] Originally by: Armoured C least the cap was removed but I thought eve was dying!?!?!?!
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.23 13:42:00 - [81] Is the next biggest city Amarr? ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:05:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Would not work, people will just pay more and still go to Jita because they can get everything in one easy place. This is exactly the sam eissue that is currently being faced by small towns as people go to the large city to buy their shopping. Some very smart people have been trying to come up with solutions with little success. It is not an easy problem with an easy fix. Fair point, People will always pay extra for convenience but there is a point for everyone where the cost outways the convenience. Simplified, Suppose I can make 10mil for doing an hours missioning, and it takes 6 mins to jump to the next system and back. The opertunity cost of nipping next door for a mod is 1 mil. If widgets are 1.5mil here but 1 mil next door, I am best to buy here and mission. If cost here is 3 mil and next door is 1 mil I am best to buy next door. If a balance is found between cost of placing orders at busy stations to the cost at empty stations. I think alot of people would be more willing to move around to find bargins, and seller would also be moving around to find the best balance between volume/profit. With it being a dynamic system there will never be 1 correct place to sell/buy. Also trading corps could be more organised in ensuring there choosen station stocks the "correct" range of items to attact customer to their "Hub". There will always be places that people band together in large numbers for convenience and this will never be full eradicated, I think in some way we need to find a way to make it more attractive to trade away from "hub" environments, And i think this could only be achieved by Rewarding trading away from these area's, punishing trading in them or Both. Also there is ways people can get the convenience of everything at one location. If you set up buy order's at reasonable market pricing ie equivalent to sell order pricing it doesn't take long for the order to be filled.
k Rose Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:13:00 - [83] Lets not turn EVE into a SWG Nightmare Folks, because that what your asking! ------------------------------------- *Recruiting Central Time USA Players for PVP* To enable image please go into your setting and check the box show images!
Beckoner Venhatha	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:17:00 - [84] but if you make it unprofitable to be a trader at one station, for example having a station tax related to av. system occupancy, rather than trading over several systems, the tendency would be to spread out... or to force local raw material costs down...
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:45:00 - [85] Originally by: Yggdrassil How about creating a "super-trade-network", that includes one station from each faction. This network can only be accessed when docked in one of those stations, effectively creating their own ... groan Keep it simple! Complicated, ugly. Baaad. Trade hubs are GOOD!!! Jita is good! Just give people a choice to go there or not, means: change the topology in such a way, that shortest routes won't run through Jita any more. Move agents out of Jita. Don't let missions happen in Jita. Keep it simple. Make it easy. And then! Whoever goes to Jita can blame only themself.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Gnulpie "Don't 'fix' stuff which isn't broken. Industry is NOT broken, so don't change it!" Industry is horribly broken tbh. I can do some lvl4 missions, refine my loot, and build a battleship. Me! And I'm just some function key mashing meat-head with terrible industry skills. Sure it may not be the most efficient battleship build ever, but the fact it is even possible is just silly. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:40:00 - [87] OMG the entire game is Broken! CCP either has to put up with isk sellers, Ebay or Kill the #### game. There are NO two ways about it.. Its logic not rocket science ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.09.23 18:09:00 - [88] Originally by: Akita T So... umm... the patch where all agents are moved OUT of Jita is coming out when ? What about the patch where all other agents near Jita AVOID sending you to or through Jita ? And the patch that adds new (short) Jita-bypass routes AND enables the "avoid Jita" option in the autopilot ? Never I hope - it is the wrong direction to fix Jita. More agents and belts should be moved back there. Any attempt to sustain the unsustainable just makes coming back to reality worse.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.09.24 00:39:00 - [89] Edited by: Misanth on 24/09/2008 00:41:23 Originally by: Avon Industry is horribly broken tbh. I can do some lvl4 missions, refine my loot, and build a battleship. Me! And I'm just some function key mashing meat-head with terrible industry skills. Sure it may not be the most efficient battleship build ever, but the fact it is even possible is just silly. Actually, that shows it's working. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's about what angle you chose to view it from. I.e. that's a one-dimensional way to illustrate it. Same goes for trading or ratting or anything else if you look at it that way. "I spent 1 hour ratting in Syndicate and made 20mil". "I spent 1 hour ratting in Fountain and made 25". Not a big difference really, if you just want to buy a battlecruiser/battleship to rat in, right? What if you rat five hours a day, seven days a week? Same goes for production, and trading, and hell even PvP. What's the difference from having a full t2 ship with lv5 ship skill and gunnery support at 4, compared to one that spent a few months getting all that to 5? It's alot of extra training for a small gain. Time. Margins. Amounts. That's where it show it's working. Over time, the PvPer or industrialist or trader will encounter situations where the skills suddenly pays off, whereas in smaller time/amount it wouldn't. I.e. when I started this game 2005 it took me and my brother 3 weeks to farm us both a Prophecy each, mining in 0.4 while fighting off pirates in our frigates. We trained learning meanwhile. (You know how little skillpoints we started with at that point too btw). Isk is worth less today, it's easier to get logistics done (even in Empire, WTZ was a huge change), etc. I better stop this before it get's way too long, but I think you see the concept. The industrialist building 100 Ravens won't be running lv4's to do it. The margin he gets from his skill is a higher % gain from each Raven produced as well. A player on a personal level will find it nice he can have crap skills and build a Raven if he lacks isk. An industrialist knows he need isk before he even can produce, to invest in BPO's, not to mention all other variables involved. I think your example is showing why the industrial sector is working. A player with no money can still get his stuff, albeit "very expensive", with limited skills. While the industrialist will make a huge profit if he chose to invest time and skill in setting up that business. Terribly long, and I guess you got some good comeback on me anyway, or just simply disagree, but as I said at the start; it's about what angle you view it from. There's alot of variables to take into consideration.
Patrice Macmahon Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.24 02:43:00 - [90] Edited by: Patrice Macmahon on 24/09/2008 02:43:57 A proposal: An Economic approach to moving people away from high Sec Space This would only require modification to the tax code. This is a targeted, scalable tax on sold goods within high sec. It would give competition to markets outside of Highsec, without interfearing with game mechanics. If you want a mid to late game item from high sec, youll pay for it. Want it at a reasonable price, you move lower in the security status. Market hubs would self generate as people establish hubs to re-establish profits, players will follow the lower prices. It would also give a reasonable differential between the Conkord-Doken protected space, and those that require a little risk. The Intakis have an obligatin to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.

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