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Star system player limit hotfix deployed Monday 22nd September.

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CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:29:00 - [1] During downtime today, Monday 22nd September, a hotfix was deployed to Tranquility. The system cap applied to the server yesterday has now been removed from all systems with the exception of Jita. From today, Jita will still maintain a maximum player capacity which has been raised to 1024. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:35:00 - [2] So... umm... the patch where all agents are moved OUT of Jita is coming out when ? What about the patch where all other agents near Jita AVOID sending you to or through Jita ? And the patch that adds new (short) Jita-bypass routes AND enables the "avoid Jita" option in the autopilot ? _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:36:00 - [3] Why 1024? From my experience it lags badly at 1000, 800 was ok-ish cap to keep lag to moderate level. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Akita T So... umm... the patch where all agents are moved OUT of Jita is coming out when? What about the patch where all other agents near Jita AVOID sending you to or through Jita? And the patch that adds new (short) Jita-bypass routes AND enables the "avoid Jita" option in the autopilot? It's probably going to be a part of the winter expansion. It's been implemented and is undergoing testing. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games


CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:44:00 - [5] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 12:44:27 Originally by: FlameGlow Why 1024? From my experience it lags badly at 1000, 800 was ok-ish cap to keep lag to moderate level. We recently deployed new server-side infrastructure, which allowed Jita to reach 1,400 pilots last Saturday, up from the approx. 900-1000 it supported at maximum before (40-55% improvement). We are working on further improvements this week. We will be raising the cap as we fine-tune the server, increase hardware capacity and add those improvements. The goal of course is to not have a cap at all. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:45:00 - [6] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 22/09/2008 12:46:33 Dear Erlendur. Would you care to explain why you went with 1024? It sounds like a number which a programmer just thought was nice rather than something that actually is based on gameplay. At 1024 you might as well just fill a stuck petition. EDIT: Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 12:44:27 Originally by: FlameGlow Why 1024? From my experience it lags badly at 1000, 800 was ok-ish cap to keep lag to moderate level. We recently deployed new server-side infrastructure, which allowed Jita to reach 1,400 pilots last Saturday, up from the approx. 900-1000 it supported at maximum before (40-55% improvement). We are working on further improvements this week. We will be raising the cap as we fine-tune the server, increase hardware capacity and add those improvements. The goal of course is to not have a cap at all. Most interesting. What was changed with the new infrastructure? I assume it's not infiniband yet(When will we get an update on that?)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:45:00 - [7] Originally by: CCP Explorer It's probably going to be a part of the winter expansion I'll just pretend that bolded part wasn't there and sing happy songs in my head _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:45:00 - [8] watches in amusement as thousands of disappointed shuttle-flying alts slowly make their way to the nearest biomass recycling facility Honestly, the way people act on these forums (or General at least), I'm surprised CCP tells us anything. ---

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:51:00 - [9] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 12:53:01 Originally by: LaVista Vista Would you care to explain why you went with 1024? It sounds like a number which a programmer just thought was nice rather than something that actually is based on gameplay. It's a nice round number, based in part on analysis of memory and CPU usage but also conservative so as to increase it gradually. Jita was close to 1,000 pilots last Friday. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

AltBier Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:00:00 - [10] Originally by: FlameGlow Why 1024? It's a nice round number, at least in binary. Quote: The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:09:00 - [11] Good to see this I think all those people who was spreading panic and tried to demolish CCP for installing a temporary cap owes CCP some apologies. On a curious sidenote, would a change in the delay to change market orders from now 5 minutes to maybe 10 minutes help such places like Jita? Or is that unrelated to those jump-in stucks because the station and market stuff is handled on a different node?
Calamity Jali Dark Entropy Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Gnulpie Good to see this I think all those people who was spreading panic and tried to demolish CCP for installing a temporary cap owes CCP some apologies. On a curious sidenote, would a change in the delay to change market orders from now 5 minutes to maybe 10 minutes help such places like Jita? Or is that unrelated to those jump-in stucks because the station and market stuff is handled on a different node? EEE***K, no then no one will be able to buy anything and it will not be jita again, the market orders are part of the jita problem, but to slow it down to 5 mins a transaction or more would be the death knell for Jita! Then the traders would move elsewhere, but as a whole together and start all over again. Forcing the problem elsewhere, so pointless!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Calamity Jali Originally by: Gnulpie On a curious sidenote, would a change in the delay to change market orders from now 5 minutes to maybe 10 minutes help such places like Jita? Or is that unrelated to those jump-in stucks because the station and market stuff is handled on a different node? EEE***K, no then no one will be able to buy anything and it will not be jita again, the market orders are part of the jita problem, but to slow it down to 5 mins a transaction or more would be the death knell for Jita! Hmm, at the moment you have to wait 5 minutes until you can change your own existing market orders, for example to lower the price about 0.02 isk or such. My question was if it would help if that currently existing delay of 5 minutes is changed to 10 minutes? Or maybe that wouldn't matter at all because the market is running on different nodes or maybe the changing of orders is just unimportant to lag, that was the question.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Calamity Jali Originally by: Gnulpie Good to see this I think all those people who was spreading panic and tried to demolish CCP for installing a temporary cap owes CCP some apologies. On a curious sidenote, would a change in the delay to change market orders from now 5 minutes to maybe 10 minutes help such places like Jita? Or is that unrelated to those jump-in stucks because the station and market stuff is handled on a different node? EEE***K, no then no one will be able to buy anything and it will not be jita again, the market orders are part of the jita problem, but to slow it down to 5 mins a transaction or more would be the death knell for Jita! Then the traders would move elsewhere, but as a whole together and start all over again. Forcing the problem elsewhere, so pointless! I think you misunderstand. As is, there is a 5 minute timer before the price of a market order can be changed. What was suggested is the possibility of changing that to 10 minutes. If so, it would mean that if you change the order price at 4:15, to change it again, you would need to wait until 4:25 instead of 4:20. This is not to limit the number of orders one can place, only the frequency at which they can be changed. This also has nothing to do with how many purchases can be made.
Carinzia	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:38:00 - [15] Just link the damn trade hubs with an instant/time delayed courier system and all this lag will go away. But we all know CCP won't do it, they're not as smart as Blizzard when they solved the old 'Lagforge' problem by linking the faction auction houses together.
Evanga	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:51:00 - [16] this is very bad issue management..i dont wanna know what the next step will be...
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:53:00 - [17] How about a alternative route around Jita NOW? Come on what part of THINKING cant you do. Then maybe a cookie letting people know your reaching problem area. For those logging into that system a DROP MENU Give other alternative systems. WARNING: AGGRO INCOMING -> BTW We know CCP Is trying and all. We know the game has some problems to overcome We know that some days it lags! Some But I want CCP to know EVE is still a kick ass game ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Moon Kitten on 22/09/2008 13:53:25 Originally by: CCP Explorer We recently deployed new server-side infrastructure, which allowed Jita to reach 1,400 pilots last Saturday, up from the approx. 900-1000 it supported at maximum before (40-55% improvement). Is this part of the infiniband/supercomputer project or something else?
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:53:00 - [19] Originally by: FlameGlow Why 1024? From my experience it lags badly at 1000, 800 was ok-ish cap to keep lag to moderate level. you know nothing about code... _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Alrich	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Carinzia Just link the damn trade hubs with an instant/time delayed courier system and all this lag will go away. But we all know CCP won't do it, they're not as smart as Blizzard when they solved the old 'Lagforge' problem by linking the faction auction houses together. and you dont think that any system transporting goods with total security is aganst the eve spirit? (if it isnt secure, it will be too easy to lose your stuff and it wont be used)
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.22 14:10:00 - [21] And there i thought, ccp was trying to fix laggy fleet battles.. Silly me, its only jita Rule cldv easily been retro-fitted to allow fairness in fleet fights, but meh..i can dream.. Awesome EVE history

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 14:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Gnulpie On a curious sidenote, would a change in the delay to change market orders from now 5 minutes to maybe 10 minutes help such places like Jita? Or is that unrelated to those jump-in stucks because the station and market stuff is handled on a different node? The Jita solarsystem and its stations are on one node. The markets are on different nodes (The Forge market is on a market node with a number of other regions). This change would have no effect on Jita. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Reithan Law and Order Corporation The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.09.22 15:05:00 - [23] There's been a lot of back-and-forth between players in threads like this concerning how much strain on the server docked or afk players cause. Can you comment on this?
k Rose Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.22 15:32:00 - [24] No not really - No comments for today! To enable image please go into your setting and check the box show images!
Damien Anders Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.22 15:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Carinzia Just link the damn trade hubs with an instant/time delayed courier system and all this lag will go away. .... Isnt that what Courier missions are there for? So you have - in the spirit of eve as Alrich wrote - a player to player sandbox service ? "This wise man observed that wealth is a tool of freedom. But the pursuit of wealth is the way to slavery."
Baldour Ngarr Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.22 16:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Damien Anders Originally by: Carinzia Just link the damn trade hubs with an instant/time delayed courier system and all this lag will go away. .... Isnt that what Courier missions are there for? So you have - in the spirit of eve as Alrich wrote - a player to player sandbox service ? That doesn't cut down on the amount of traffic through Jita, though. Admittedly, any solution that reduces said traffic by having NPC couriers deliver things, removes some of the sandbox element and is to be avoided if possible. Is it still possible, though? At what point do we have to admit "sorry guys, there's just no other way to solve this problem?" The jumpgates skipping Jita and dropping you straight to the other side sound like a good idea - until you realise that the whole and only Jita is a trade hub is because everyone and his dog goes through it. Remove the passing trade, remove the mission runners, and the traders will go sell their stuff somewhere else. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Letrange Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.22 16:50:00 - [27] My only side comment on the rabble-rage going round: People time to clue in here. EvE is the only MMO that offers a single shard environment to it's players in the numbers we are. When the code was originally written it wasn't to support the current population count. Tranquility is on the road to becoming a true blue rated super computer. Technically the first dedicated gaming supercomputer outside of Chess AI stuff. As such we're most definitely on the bleeding edge of gaming development. When you're on the edge you occasionally get cut. Deal. One way or the other we're in for a hell of a ride. That being said, CCP is definitely in uncharted territory game-technology wise. I suggest all the rabble chill for a while. I'd be more worried if we didn't run into problems like this from time to time. It shows that CCP is working on the problems, not just waiting for the next piece of hardware and praying it has enough horsepower to solve some of the problems.
Elrca Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.22 17:29:00 - [28] Edited by: Elrca on 22/09/2008 17:29:11 wow!! cap is 10000000000 B or 400 H or 1024 D
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.22 17:35:00 - [29] So, eve is single sharded but (essentially) not in jita? And "temporary" solution can mean up to a few months if i am not misinterpreting that remark about midas. Not one of your brightest hours ccp.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Myra2007 So, eve is single sharded but (essentially) not in jita? And "temporary" solution can mean up to a few months if i am not misinterpreting that remark about midas. Not one of your brightest hours ccp. You seem to not understand what server shards mean. Join New Eden Research today and never worry about queues again!
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Mankirks Wife watches in amusement as thousands of disappointed shuttle-flying alts slowly make their way to the nearest biomass recycling facility Honestly, the way people act on these forums (or General at least), I'm surprised CCP tells us anything. Yeah, I'm wondering if Avon will dare stick his head in this thread after all the emo gloom 'n doom he spouted yesterday. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Towelieban Minmatar Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:13:00 - [32] just buy your stuff before you actually enter jita so you can be out of there asap. in my view the shorter your in jita the better

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:32:00 - [33] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 18:33:58 Originally by: Moon Kitten Originally by: CCP Explorer We recently deployed new server-side infrastructure, which allowed Jita to reach 1,400 pilots last Saturday, up from the approx. 900-1000 it supported at maximum before (40-55% improvement). Is this part of the infiniband/supercomputer project or something else? This is something else, but under the same umbrella of re-factoring and making EVE more scalable. This new server-side infrastructure is called StacklessIO and is a new network layer in EVE. We deployed this to Tranquility a week ago, on 16 September. We are going to publish more details about StacklessIO soon, I'm currently drafting a two-part blog with architecture information and measurement results. This new network layer reduces network latency and improves performance in high-volume situations, e.g., in fleet-fights and in Jita. Normally Jita reaches a maximum of about 800-900 pilots on Sundays. Last Friday there were close to 1,000 pilots in Jita and on Saturday the number reached 1,400. We then encountered a problem that we had not even been able to encounter before, the Jita node ran out of memory. So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Henki Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:08:00 - [34] what many peoples don"t understand is why CCP still want to see Jita like the only trade point ?? Simply cut off some systems and change some systems with low sec (instead of high), and you can be sure that many people will use "amarr" "rens" "oursu" "yulai" instead of jita. If people must do 110 jump to join jita, they will change their trade point.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Henki what many peoples don"t understand is why CCP still want to see Jita like the only trade point ?? Simply cut off some systems and change some systems with low sec (instead of high), and you can be sure that many people will use "amarr" "rens" "oursu" "yulai" instead of jita. If people must do 110 jump to join jita, they will change their trade point. And within a week or two after much wailing and freighter runs a New Jita will have sprung up in whatever system is the new central easy to reach point of Caldari Online. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:13:00 - [36] Originally by: Jana Clant Originally by: Myra2007 So, eve is single sharded but (essentially) not in jita? And "temporary" solution can mean up to a few months if i am not misinterpreting that remark about midas. Not one of your brightest hours ccp. You seem to not understand what server shards mean. If too many players are in jita i cannot log into the game/system. Thus essentially the single sharded nature of eve is broken. Because its not everyone on the same shard but everyone on the same shard as long as player numbers don't rise too much. Oh and the fact there isn't a second shard but the people who don't fit into number 1 don't get to play at all. Thats it in a nutshell. If you do not see how this might interfere with the idea of a single sharded persistent world like eve then i think it may be you who does not understand the very nature of this once so great game. Whats the difference to other games where a sever has a limit of say 5000 players? Once the limit is reached i cannot meet/interact/play with the players on that server. Now in eve that "server" is jita and once its filled up i cannot meet/interact/play with the players in jita cept maybe for chatting. How is that in any shape or form a single shard environment? Its just there isn't a second shard and the players who can't log in don't get to play at all. Now people will rise some points like "but 1000 players in a system always meant some cannot login etc.". The key difference is if the number of players exceeds a certain limit then the game becomes unplayable and unpedictable for everyone. Thus its either everyone can game or no one can (really). Now its who comes first can play and everyone else can ask himself for what exactly he is paying the same fees as everyone who is just now logged in and playing. Others will argue how there are other trade hubs to use like amarr/rens etc. Again they will not be able to explain how its ok to force some players to use other hubs while they remain in jita running missions in their glorious fanboi hypocrisy. Personally i will keep my trade alts logged into jita 23/7 now especially on the weekend to ensure i get to play when everyone else does too. And if at any time you find yourself in a hurry to buy some fancy items for pew pew with your friends and find you can't log in: don't complain here on the forums. You just made clear its ok to cut your gametime for the "greater good" (i.e. other players who have more right to play then you).
F90OEX F9X	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:16:00 - [37] Originally by: CCP Explorer So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Way I see it there is nothing new about the current problem, Be it in some 0.0 fleet battle or jumping into Jita on the weekend. Its like CCP are always behind the curve, I'm sure they knew at some point Jita would reach 1000 in local, but yet they wait until c-rap hits the fan for them to do something about it, rather then taking preventive measures from it happening. Players have asked and asked and asked thread after thread, for a bypass system that allows you not having to go though Jita, but yet it still remains. After 2 or so years players asking you to move agents from Jita .. 2 years for it to happen lol Its like again you would rather take the forced route then using the preventive measures route. What a mess
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:19:00 - [38] Originally by: Myra2007 ..DramaBomb.. Your acting like this is going to be a permanent feature for Jita and not a temporary solution until that offending bit of new network layer code designed to make Jita hold even MOAR lemmings is debugged. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:23:00 - [39] Originally by: F90OEX Originally by: CCP Explorer So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Way I see it there is nothing new about the current problem, Be it in some 0.0 fleet battle or jumping into Jita on the weekend. Its like CCP are always behind the curve, I'm sure they knew at some point Jita would reach 1000 in local, but yet they wait until c-rap hits the fan for them to do something about it, rather then taking preventive measures from it happening. Players have asked and asked and asked thread after thread, for a bypass system that allows you not having to go though Jita, but yet it still remains. After 2 or so years players asking you to move agents from Jita .. 2 years for it to happen lol Its like again you would rather take the forced route then using the preventive measures route. What a mess WTB server code that is pre-bugged and 100% stable only using best guesses and empirical data without any data from actual ingame level stress. Test server is not Tq and is insufficient to fully stress out new code to find that tiny little bug that only shows itself in a live enviroment. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:24:00 - [40] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Myra2007 ..DramaBomb.. Your acting like this is going to be a permanent feature for Jita and not a temporary solution until that offending bit of new network layer code designed to make Jita hold even MOAR lemmings is debugged. Lets just say Wheels turn very slow! ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Judge Ment Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Myra2007 ..DramaBomb.. Your acting like this is going to be a permanent feature for Jita and not a temporary solution until that offending bit of new network layer code designed to make Jita hold even MOAR lemmings is debugged. Lets just say Wheels turn very slow! And water takes forever to boil for the ADD amongst us too. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:30:00 - [42] Edited by: Myra2007 on 22/09/2008 19:32:02 Edited by: Myra2007 on 22/09/2008 19:31:33 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Myra2007 ..DramaBomb.. Your acting like this is going to be a permanent feature for Jita and not a temporary solution until that offending bit of new network layer code designed to make Jita hold even MOAR lemmings is debugged. Well temporary may mean until december expansion or even longer according to dev posts in this thread. In that case i think its long enough to be called a problem. Maybe they can do it faster but who knows. As for the "offending bit of network layer code": Jita has been a mess for years now so what exactly changed that this code is suddenly borked and a player limit has to be deployed? At least you are not telling me its perfectly fine to lock some players out of the game while other can play just fine like many other people here seem to think. edit: and no it wasn't a dramabomb see my first post which was pretty short. I just tried to clarify (after being asked) why this does indeed mess with the "single-shard" idea and i still stand behind that point.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:37:00 - [43] Originally by: Myra2007 As for the "offending bit of network layer code": Jita has been a mess for years now so what exactly changed that this code is suddenly borked and a player limit has to be deployed? It didn't become "borked" and isn't "borked". We deployed a new network layer to Tranquility last week that reduces network latency and improves performance. As a result 1,400 pilots were able to log into Jita last Saturday. This is more than have ever been in Jita at the same time. We found our next challenge, the memory required to hold 1,400 pilots in Jita at the same time. We're now working on that next challenge. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:37:00 - [44] Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Myra2007 ..DramaBomb.. Your acting like this is going to be a permanent feature for Jita and not a temporary solution until that offending bit of new network layer code designed to make Jita hold even MOAR lemmings is debugged. Well temporary may mean until december expansion or even longer according to dev posts in this thread. In that case i think its long enough to be called a problem. Maybe they can do it faster but who knows. As for the "offending bit of network layer code": Jita has been a mess for years now so what exactly changed that this code is suddenly borked and a player limit has to be deployed? At least you are not telling me its perfectly fine to lock some players out of the game while other can play just fine like many other people here seem to think. Well if you had kept track of the various dev posts over the last few days then you would know that moving agents out of Jita is the thing they are putting off till the winter expansion. As per the new network layer code they installed in the Emp 1.1 patch its designed to boost Jita to the 1500ish player mark but had a nastly little memory bug that didn't show itself until stressed under the massive Jita player overload on Saturday. Bug has been identified and will probably be squashed imho in days or less. But hey hey hey its the forums so poast away. We can always point and laugh at you later like people are doing to Avon with his G A M E O V E R comments that blew up in his face. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:43:00 - [45] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 19:43:02 Originally by: Zeba As per the new network layer code (...) had a nastly little memory bug that didn't show itself until stressed under the massive Jita player overload on Saturday. There is no memory bug in the new network layer as far as we know, in fact the memory usage on the proxy servers in the cluster has been cut by 50%. But the memory required for more than 1,400 pilots in the same solarsystem is our next optimisation task. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:46:00 - [46] Edited by: Zeba on 22/09/2008 19:50:17 Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 19:43:02 Originally by: Zeba As per the new network layer code (...) had a nastly little memory bug that didn't show itself until stressed under the massive Jita player overload on Saturday. There is no memory bug in the new network layer as far as we know, in fact the memory usage on the proxy servers in the cluster has been cut by 50%. But the memory required for more than 1,400 pilots in the same solarsystem is our next optimisation task. Ahh. kk.. Misread this part of your earlier statement as some sort of a memory allocation code mixup and not as running out of physical memory. Originally by: CCP Explorer Last Friday there were close to 1,000 pilots in Jita and on Saturday the number reached 1,400. We then encountered a problem that we had not even been able to encounter before, the Jita node ran out of memory. So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. So there you have it kids. Plug in some moar memory sticks for the Jita node and it will be ready again for the unlimited hoards to trade away. (unless I misunderstood you again. :P) inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:47:00 - [47] Originally by: CCP Explorer the Jita node ran out of memory. So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Is this challenge somehow related to you only being able to address/use less than 4GB of RAM, i.e. 32-bit code? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:53:00 - [48] Correct me if im wrong what is CCP going to if they do hit their dream goal of 200,000 people on Tranquilty! Money must be good Im seeing more TV and internet adds I hope they are putting some into labor cost ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.22 20:16:00 - [49] 'sup? Nothing blew up in my face at all. Just because currently the cap only currenty applies to Jita it doen't mean the game is suddenly unbroken. We now know that a dedicated node runs out of memory at 1400 players, and whilst this is being addressed it is still an issue, especially as some node hold many 10's of systems. The situation now exists where when the cap is in place it is impossible for someone to enter Jita and interact directly with characters there, which is very un-eve. Also, whilst CCP should be congratulated on their super spanky 1400 people in a system before breaking it, it doesn't help people who are fighting in rather more modest numbers having to suffer ghost ships and all sorts of other funky stuff. The important factor, however, is CCP's reaction to the problem - not just short term, but their lack of planning and developing game mechanics and design which discourage such huge concentrations of numbers, far in excess of that which their game can currently handle. Capping systems is a worrying reaction, because once it has been tried for the first time it isn't a great stretch of the imagination to think it would be used again. I know CCP have fought a great battle with code and hardware to try and keep up with the lag curve, I've been here all the way through. It is amazing to think that once CCP were telling us how if Eve ever hit 20k players it would be able to cope, and now we can run at double that at peak times! But, and it is a big but (one "t", no smutty humour please), the game design unfortunately has not been so good at coping with increasing numbers. When the superhighways were introduced (ironically as a reaction to low player numbers leading to little interaction), Yulai became Eve's central hub. It was a needed thing at the time, although it did drastically reduce the size of Eve. When Yulai started to get crowded, extra jumps were added to the highways in an attempt to create four hubs, rather than one. Jita was one of those hubs, but because of the way the space-routes fell, it also happened to be a major crossing point if you were travelling from one side of Eve to the other. That, along with instajumps, and then warp to zero, made Jita the ideal central hub. When travel was slower it was a harder call as to which was "best", I remember Rens had a pretty good run at it, but Jita was in a prime position both because of its "crossroads" location, and being the closest for Caldari space, the most populated part of Eve. This was the crucial time. Already people were forcasting Jita would be Yulai II, and discussing how to avoid it. How to encourage people to adopt a more regional focus to their gameplay by alterations in game mechanics to reward "factional" play. I was one of those people. However, CCP focused on easier and faster travel to somehow make the game more fun, or more popular, or somesuch. They introduced combat mechanics which encouraged and in some cases even required increased player numbers and concentrations. Eve still needs very fundamental changes to the way space, location, and travel are viewed, otherwise the Jita problem will only ever get worse .. and as the server population increases the problem will spread. The solution is not with more spanky hardware (although it would help), or superdooperIO layers, but with game design. People are generally social creatures, and it is in their nature to come together in one place. Game design has to acknowledge that, and then try like hell to discourage it in a way players feel is rewarding. The problem is people, the solution is design. Caps and kneejerks are bad, not because of what they are, but because of what they represent - a lack of understanding of the real problem. C O N T I N U E ? I N S E R T C O I N Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.22 20:26:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Explorer This new server-side infrastructure is called StacklessIO and is a new network layer in EVE ... We are going to publish more details about StacklessIO soon, I'm currently drafting a two-part blog with architecture information and measurement results. This new network layer reduces network latency and improves performance in high-volume situations, e.g., in fleet-fights ... this week we are working on memory improvements ... Woah! That are exciting news! StacklessIO Can you tell us more about that? Haven't heard about it so far awaits eagerly the devblog That sounds certainly like really interesting times for the devs And those f**ng sheads who cannot do anything but yell around and be destructive: if you don't like this game, then go away - the sooner, the better! Really, no wonder that the devs aren't showing up more on the forums with such idiots around who don't understand anything and do not care to inform themselves about even the most basic things.
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.22 20:35:00 - [51] Edited by: NightmareX on 22/09/2008 20:40:26 Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: CCP Explorer This new server-side infrastructure is called StacklessIO and is a new network layer in EVE ... We are going to publish more details about StacklessIO soon, I'm currently drafting a two-part blog with architecture information and measurement results. This new network layer reduces network latency and improves performance in high-volume situations, e.g., in fleet-fights ... this week we are working on memory improvements ... Woah! That are exciting news! StacklessIO Can you tell us more about that? Haven't heard about it so far awaits eagerly the devblog That sounds certainly like really interesting times for the devs And those f**ng sheads who cannot do anything but yell around and be destructive: if you don't like this game, then go away - the sooner, the better! Really, no wonder that the devs aren't showing up more on the forums with such idiots around who don't understand anything and do not care to inform themselves about even the most basic things. I can't do more than just completely agree to what you did say here. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.22 21:09:00 - [52] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 22/09/2008 20:40:26 Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: CCP Explorer This new server-side infrastructure is called StacklessIO and is a new network layer in EVE ... We are going to publish more details about StacklessIO soon, I'm currently drafting a two-part blog with architecture information and measurement results. This new network layer reduces network latency and improves performance in high-volume situations, e.g., in fleet-fights ... this week we are working on memory improvements ... Woah! That are exciting news! StacklessIO Can you tell us more about that? Haven't heard about it so far awaits eagerly the devblog That sounds certainly like really interesting times for the devs And those f**ng sheads who cannot do anything but yell around and be destructive: if you don't like this game, then go away - the sooner, the better! Really, no wonder that the devs aren't showing up more on the forums with such idiots around who don't understand anything and do not care to inform themselves about even the most basic things. I can't do more than just completely agree to what you did say here. by the time you get back nightmareX eve will be pretty spiffy :)
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.22 21:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Avon People are generally social creatures, and it is in their nature to come together in one place. Game design has to acknowledge that, and then try like hell to discourage it in a way players feel is rewarding. The problem is people, the solution is design. For once I'm going to agree with BOB ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Catharacta Caldari Carebear Cavalry	Posted - 2008.09.22 21:38:00 - [54] Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: Jana Clant Originally by: Myra2007 So, eve is single sharded but (essentially) not in jita? And "temporary" solution can mean up to a few months if i am not misinterpreting that remark about midas. Not one of your brightest hours ccp. You seem to not understand what server shards mean. If too many players are in jita i cannot log into the game/system. Thus essentially the single sharded nature of eve is broken. Because its not everyone on the same shard but everyone on the same shard as long as player numbers don't rise too much. Oh and the fact there isn't a second shard but the people who don't fit into number 1 don't get to play at all. Thats it in a nutshell. If you do not see how this might interfere with the idea of a single sharded persistent world like eve then i think it may be you who does not understand the very nature of this once so great game. Whats the difference to other games where a sever has a limit of say 5000 players? Once the limit is reached i cannot meet/interact/play with the players on that server. Now in eve that "server" is jita and once its filled up i cannot meet/interact/play with the players in jita cept maybe for chatting. How is that in any shape or form a single shard environment? Its just there isn't a second shard and the players who can't log in don't get to play at all. Now people will rise some points like "but 1000 players in a system always meant some cannot login etc.". The key difference is if the number of players exceeds a certain limit then the game becomes unplayable and unpedictable for everyone. Thus its either everyone can game or no one can (really). Now its who comes first can play and everyone else can ask himself for what exactly he is paying the same fees as everyone who is just now logged in and playing. Others will argue how there are other trade hubs to use like amarr/rens etc. Again they will not be able to explain how its ok to force some players to use other hubs while they remain in jita running missions in their glorious fanboi hypocrisy. Personally i will keep my trade alts logged into jita 23/7 now especially on the weekend to ensure i get to play when everyone else does too. And if at any time you find yourself in a hurry to buy some fancy items for pew pew with your friends and find you can't log in: don't complain here on the forums. You just made clear its ok to cut your gametime for the "greater good" (i.e. other players who have more right to play then you). 6/10.
Monkey Saturday Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.09.22 21:39:00 - [55] I have to say I'm impressed with the amount of communication and info from the Dev team on this issue. It almost feels like the days of yore. Just a word of warning though, but I'm sure you've already thought of this : If you build it they will come. If Jita caps at 1024 you'll see that number more and more often. The amount of memory you're thinking of adding to the Jita node? Double it Thanks for the Maulus BPO nerf! :D

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Doc Fury Originally by: CCP Explorer the Jita node ran out of memory. So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Is this challenge somehow related to you only being able to address/use less than 4GB of RAM, i.e. 32-bit code? There would be a correlation. The old network layer prevented us from moving to 64-bit code and that's what we are working on today. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:09:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 18:33:58 Originally by: Moon Kitten Originally by: CCP Explorer We recently deployed new server-side infrastructure, which allowed Jita to reach 1,400 pilots last Saturday, up from the approx. 900-1000 it supported at maximum before (40-55% improvement). Is this part of the infiniband/supercomputer project or something else? This is something else, but under the same umbrella of re-factoring and making EVE more scalable. This new server-side infrastructure is called StacklessIO and is a new network layer in EVE. We deployed this to Tranquility a week ago, on 16 September. We are going to publish more details about StacklessIO soon, I'm currently drafting a two-part blog with architecture information and measurement results. This new network layer reduces network latency and improves performance in high-volume situations, e.g., in fleet-fights and in Jita. Normally Jita reaches a maximum of about 800-900 pilots on Sundays. Last Friday there were close to 1,000 pilots in Jita and on Saturday the number reached 1,400. We then encountered a problem that we had not even been able to encounter before, the Jita node ran out of memory. So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Several people I know noticed a lot less lag in Jita- including me. So good on you. I'm very curious to hear about what's next and how it will improve latency elsewhere. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:10:00 - [58] Originally by: Monkey Saturday I have to say I'm impressed with the amount of communication and info from the Dev team on this issue. It almost feels like the days of yore. Just a word of warning though, but I'm sure you've already thought of this : If you build it they will come. If Jita caps at 1024 you'll see that number more and more often. The amount of memory you're thinking of adding to the Jita node? Double it I'm not sure that tripling it will be enough. Technical and hardware solutions won't suffice in the long run, which is why EVE Game Design is working on how the "Jita service" can be provided while avoiding "secure transport all through EVE". But that's not an easy task. If it was then those ideas would have been applied to reduce congestion on Times Square, Oxford Street, Avenue des Champs-+lysTes and Laugarvegur. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Patrice Macmahon Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:23:00 - [59] Have you guys considered softening the competitiveness of Jita (or high sec) in a suble fasion? I understand the geekdom and challenge of getting 1,400+ players into a single system, but how about giving an incentive for some (not all) of those traders to move out of jita and expanding markets elsewhere? A proposal: An Economic approach to moving people away from high Sec Space This would only require modification to the tax code. The Intakis have an obligatin to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.
Wilde One Gallente The Photon Raiders	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:38:00 - [60] OK this is only an idea and may be completly stupid or have been mentioned before. If so forgive me. Instead of a play cap how about an order cap. If there can only be so many orders in a single system or station then it would force players to put orders up in other systems and hopefuly spread it round the constilation. It would only really affect the newer players and the traders by the fact they would have to travel more to collect and place orders. Any seriouse trader would be able to remotely adjust there orders anyway. But like I said just an idea.
14of12	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:41:00 - [61] If star system near jita become full, is there also thought of situation you can jump jita out any more because the next system has traffic jam and the red light to go out is on. Problem so many new people start around jita because there are most lvl 1 agents. Why don't make rens the minimater trade center. With only minimater goods, jita or yulai the caldari trade center, amarr the amarr trade center and oursalaet the galente trade center. And what of all missions agents taht are surrounded through eve, away bonus because you can not jump in a system anymore or even worse your mission runs out of time. There goes your standing. It also an opportunity for ccp too drive more people too 0.0. IN 0.0 you can always get on eve most system are figurly empty. AK
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:44:00 - [62] least the cap was removed remember carebears arn't people they are flying pinyata's ]
Patrice Macmahon Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.22 22:46:00 - [63] Originally by: 14of12 Why don't make rens the minimater trade center. With only minimater goods, jita or yulai the caldari trade center, amarr the amarr trade center and oursalaet the galente trade center. CCP didn't pick jita. The players picked jita because of its intrisic location value. Over time the networking effect took hold and it snowballed. Rens does not have the same location value, and it's networking effect value can only be generated when more pilots and traders start operating out of there. Rens has reached its natural location/networking effect value, and it would take considerable effort to inflate it. As far as I can see, CCP does not directly point and say "There is where were planting the newest hub." Players do that. The Intakis have an obligatin to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Avon [...] The situation now exists where when the cap is in place it is impossible for someone to enter Jita and interact directly with characters there, which is very un-eve. [...] People are generally social creatures, and it is in their nature to come together in one place. Game design has to acknowledge that, and then try like hell to discourage it in a way players feel is rewarding. The problem is people, the solution is design. Caps and kneejerks are bad, not because of what they are, but because of what they represent - a lack of understanding of the real problem. You have a big point when you point out that a solution should be sought in game design, because the problem is caused by human nature. However, somewhere at the top, you also have a point when you say limiting interaction between players is un-EVE, probably because the freedom in choosing what you do including interaction makes the whole sandbox model thing work in the first place: you decide where you go and what you do, the game doesn't force you to do anything. Now how do you propose to control the behavior of people without allowing them to choose what they do? You'll probably suggest reward for spreading out and penalties on crowding, but doesn't that just break the whole sandbox thing a bit? And of course everybody would have liked to have this solved this problem 2 years ago, but since it hasn't (and it probably won't be solved in the next year either), you might have to resort to unlikable QuickHacks(TM) like a cap. Sometimes you need to keep the patients heart beating before you operate on him .... sure he should have started working out to stay fit so he didn't have his heart give out, but it's not helpful pointing that out over and over again when he just survived a heart attack. BTW, I think Factional Warfare has some potential to alleviate some of the Jita problems by making other market hubs more valuable to milita pilots who cannot just stumble into enemy territory to buy some more guns and ammo. I hope more changes with subtle side effects like this will be made in the future, making New Eden more fun for all of us. And to all of you criticizing the EVE technology & CCP approach: you have obviously no clue what you're talking about when you think fixing this is easy in ANY way. I have no insight in distribution of manpower within CCP but I'm hoping they see scalability as their biggest hurdle to grow beyond what EVE is now and invest manhours accordingly. But I also know that no matter how many people you throw at the problem, it won't be an easy fix without breaking the success factors in the game.
Reptzo Channel 4 News Team	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:40:00 - [65] I must say it is nice to see so much communication from the dev team. As of late you guys have been quite, so very glad to see the openness. Keep up the good work.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:48:00 - [66] Originally by: Carinzia Just link the damn trade hubs with an instant/time delayed courier system and all this lag will go away. But we all know CCP won't do it, they're not as smart as Blizzard when they solved the old 'Lagforge' problem by linking the faction auction houses together. They're apparently smart enough to not follow your advice, which is entirely contrary to what Eve is based on. There is no instant magic transportation. It's one of the things that make Eve Eve. If you can't understand this basic concept, you should just go back to WoW.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.22 23:56:00 - [67] Originally by: DaDutchDude Now how do you propose to control the behavior of people without allowing them to choose what they do? You'll probably suggest reward for spreading out and penalties on crowding, but doesn't that just break the whole sandbox thing a bit? Not really. The idea was to encourage a regional approach to Eve, using backstory to enrich the enviroment. The basic premise was that building the "right" thing in the "right" places in stations of the "right" corp would give increasing bonuses to production speed or reduced cost. The Raven, for example is an Ishukone ship. Having good Ishukone & Caldari State standings, along with building in and Ishukone station in Caldari space, would lead to shorter production times, and an effective ME bonus. I'll see if I can find the thread about it, it had some great discussion. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Stormwind Bloodfeather Minmatar Sogdian Traders Inc	Posted - 2008.09.23 00:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Avon Originally by: DaDutchDude Now how do you propose to control the behavior of people without allowing them to choose what they do? You'll probably suggest reward for spreading out and penalties on crowding, but doesn't that just break the whole sandbox thing a bit? Not really. The idea was to encourage a regional approach to Eve, using backstory to enrich the enviroment. The basic premise was that building the "right" thing in the "right" places in stations of the "right" corp would give increasing bonuses to production speed or reduced cost. The Raven, for example is an Ishukone ship. Having good Ishukone & Caldari State standings, along with building in and Ishukone station in Caldari space, would lead to shorter production times, and an effective ME bonus. I'll see if I can find the thread about it, it had some great discussion. I like this idea. The code work might be a pita though. While on the surface it "sounds" simple and easy you would be re-writing and adding code to the database and when you do that, sometimes other things break you didn't think/expect to break. The testing for this would be a bear but the idea is sound and would fit well within the EVE universe and backstory as well. "Of COURSE we can build that ship faster, cheaper and better than the competitors.. WE DESIGNED IT!" Storm In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy!
NSSQUAD	Posted - 2008.09.23 00:30:00 - [69] i never understood why players dont set up shop a system or 2 over i dont care what you saw your just lazy if you dont have the right skills to use a transport ship and your a trader
Ehronn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.23 00:56:00 - [70] Why not borrow the idea that's currently on the drawing board here http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp?sid=1056770453 Quote: The Interbus Similar to the interweb, but instead of serving up a constant stream of smut and drivel, allows you to have your shopping delivered to your door û provided that your door is within the same constellation, that youÆve paid the fee, tipped the delivery boy etc. Actually, nothing like the interweb at all, apart from the name. :P that would help some I'd think hehe. ----------------------- Dysfunctional Playground
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.23 03:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Ehronn Why not borrow the idea that's currently on the drawing board here http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp?sid=1056770453 Quote: The Interbus Similar to the interweb, but instead of serving up a constant stream of smut and drivel, allows you to have your shopping delivered to your door û provided that your door is within the same constellation, that youÆve paid the fee, tipped the delivery boy etc. Actually, nothing like the interweb at all, apart from the name. :P that would help some I'd think hehe. Only problem with that is the 100% safe logistics routes it would generate for warring alliances. Buy stuff in empire and have it sent via invulnerable and untraceable npc courier to a low sec station and drop it into an honor tanked jump capable ships cargo hold. Undock and activate cyno to the 0.0 base of your choosing without a single enemy ever knowing how the hell you got resupplied or where the supplies are headed. Interbus will never make it into the game unless there is an npc freighter that physically carries your stuff from purchase station to destination flying from gate to gate. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Hesod Adee Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.23 04:54:00 - [72] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Akita T So... umm... the patch where all agents are moved OUT of Jita is coming out when? What about the patch where all other agents near Jita AVOID sending you to or through Jita? And the patch that adds new (short) Jita-bypass routes AND enables the "avoid Jita" option in the autopilot? It's probably going to be a part of the winter expansion. It's been implemented and is undergoing testing. Does this include a Jita bypass* ? Because if it doesn't, people will be really ***ed when their autopilot plots them a route through Jita only to get stuck at the gate. Making a gate from every system bordering Jita to every other system bordering Jita so that, unless Jita is a waypoint, the fastest route will never take you through Jita.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.23 05:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather Originally by: Avon The idea was to encourage a regional approach to Eve, using backstory to enrich the enviroment. The basic premise was that building the "right" thing in the "right" places in stations of the "right" corp would give increasing bonuses to production speed or reduced cost. The Raven, for example is an Ishukone ship. Having good Ishukone & Caldari State standings, along with building in and Ishukone station in Caldari space, would lead to shorter production times, and an effective ME bonus. I like this idea. ... "Of COURSE we can build that ship faster, cheaper and better than the competitors.. WE DESIGNED IT!" "Don't 'fix' stuff which isn't broken. Industry is NOT broken, so don't change it!" A regional industry approach would increase the need for a jita-like tradehub even more. Because certainly no one want to travel 20 jumps to get a raven, then travel another 20 jumps to get an armageddon and then jump around madly to pick up various fitting stuff. If people need to do the logistics, then they want to do it at least most easily. They want ONE system where they can pick up all the stuff - even if it costs more. Same goes for selling. People do not want to do more boring logistics than necessary, that is why there exist one big huge tradehub. Because you can get there (almost) everything and sell there in large quantities. And the regional building, that is not good. It will only force people into one region and that will be a feedback process which will lead to drastically reduced variety in Eve. An option on the autopilot to avoid traffic jammed systems would help LOTS more and would be much more risk free than changing basic game designs in Eve (remember: Don't 'fix' stuff which isn't broken. Industry is NOT broken, so don't change it!). Alternatively an option that allows to avoid system with xxx people (player chosen) might do the trick also. But I think integration of the live data into the autopilot is a bit of a problem at the moment, it uses only static data as far as I know.
miss elena Minmatar Taurus korps	Posted - 2008.09.23 05:33:00 - [74] I also liked avons proposal about implementing game mechanics to make bussines in native space more easy/profitable.maybe that could be linked to the other issue with lowsec being under populated.i mean maybe some other bonuses could be given to traders/ builders choosing to operate in lowsec. Of course the current open gamemechanic has its benefits both in gameplay and with regard to backstory,we are afterall capsulers and not mere mortals.but the current situation is becomming a bit stale with jita being to important.
Wrayeth Trans Eve Organization	Posted - 2008.09.23 05:58:00 - [75] Edited by: Wrayeth on 23/09/2008 06:01:32 I'm not sure if this has already been thought of, but have you considered having each of the systems connected to Jita share the same market? What I mean by this is the ability to go to Sobaseki and purchase an item in Sobaseki, Jita or any of Jita's other connecting systems and have it appear in your hangar in Sobaseki. (Please note that this would only work for purchases if the pilot is currently docked; remote buy and sell orders would be right out.) Moreover, this could be applied to all market hubs based on dynamic scaling. If x amount of transactions occur in a given system y every day for z days, then systemname y + [all adjacent systems] = market hub. If market hub, then system y + [all adjacent systems] share one market. This check could be performed once every week, every downtime, or whatever best suits. Or some similar if/then statement. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.09.23 07:23:00 - [76] Good Job CCP ... well for once ... let's hope the next expansion won't ruin it ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.23 11:13:00 - [77] I think a fairly simple approach which would solve this problem....Congestion Charge. Broker fees are modified by Standings aswell as skill. but tax is currently only affected by Skill. I suggest that an extra tax is applied to setting up an order (Buy or Sell) this could be standard 1% but is modified by Trade. IE 3 stations Jita IV-IV Major Hub 1 Trillion per day sales Random Lvl 4 mission Hub 50 Billion per day sales Low Sec/0.0 Station 1 Billion Per Day sales Daily volumes per station is worked out at down time and the order tax is calculated. Jita IV - IV 3% order tax Mission Hub 1.5% order Tax Low Sec/0.0 Station 0.01% order tax Numbers can be modified to balance, this way people can still benefit from high population stations but it will cut into margins. I also think this would allow for more inter region trading making it more profitable to list in quieter systems. It would also generate a much needed and fairly huge Isk sink Win/Win

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.09.23 11:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Midas Man I think a fairly simple approach which would solve this problem....Congestion Charge. Broker fees are modified by Standings aswell as skill. but tax is currently only affected by Skill. I suggest that an extra tax is applied to setting up an order (Buy or Sell) this could be standard 1% but is modified by Trade. IE 3 stations Jita IV-IV Major Hub 1 Trillion per day sales Random Lvl 4 mission Hub 50 Billion per day sales Low Sec/0.0 Station 1 Billion Per Day sales Daily volumes per station is worked out at down time and the order tax is calculated. Jita IV - IV 3% order tax Mission Hub 1.5% order Tax Low Sec/0.0 Station 0.01% order tax Numbers can be modified to balance, this way people can still benefit from high population stations but it will cut into margins. I also think this would allow for more inter region trading making it more profitable to list in quieter systems. It would also generate a much needed and fairly huge Isk sink Win/Win Would not work, people will just pay more and still go to Jita because they can get everything in one easy place. This is exactly the sam eissue that is currently being faced by small towns as people go to the large city to buy their shopping. Some very smart people have been trying to come up with solutions with little success. It is not an easy problem with an easy fix. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2008.09.23 12:08:00 - [79] Ok - this isn't an easy solution to code, nor really realistic, but... How about creating a "super-trade-network", that includes one station from each faction. This network can only be accessed when docked in one of those stations, effectively creating their own market and excluding it from the regional one. Whatever you buy in this market, ends up in the station you're docked at. So - if say Amarr and Jita is connected, you look up item A, buys 1000 units at it (which is put up for sale in Jita) and it magically appears in you hangar in Amarr, where you're docked. Of course, this kind of trading comes at a price: x% extra tax - covering transport fees etc etc. The tax rate should be high enough to make it profitable to put stuff up for sale elsewhere than in this super-network, BUT low enough to not make us player create a new Jita. Also - it should be considered very carefully which system/stations should be used for this, in order to not ellimitate the need to actually transport stuff yourself. Tax should probably also be calculated two ways: one part with actual sell order value, and one using a base value (to avoid ppl exploiting it by "selling" stuff just to move it from A to B (read: stuff that aren't traded in high volume where there are no set buy orders) _______________________________ __ __ l l_l l l _ AVE A NICE l__l l__l ___ l ' . l D i l.___, 'AY _______________________________ Yggdrassil
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.23 12:32:00 - [80] Originally by: Armoured C least the cap was removed but I thought eve was dying!?!?!?!
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.23 13:42:00 - [81] Is the next biggest city Amarr? ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:05:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Would not work, people will just pay more and still go to Jita because they can get everything in one easy place. This is exactly the sam eissue that is currently being faced by small towns as people go to the large city to buy their shopping. Some very smart people have been trying to come up with solutions with little success. It is not an easy problem with an easy fix. Fair point, People will always pay extra for convenience but there is a point for everyone where the cost outways the convenience. Simplified, Suppose I can make 10mil for doing an hours missioning, and it takes 6 mins to jump to the next system and back. The opertunity cost of nipping next door for a mod is 1 mil. If widgets are 1.5mil here but 1 mil next door, I am best to buy here and mission. If cost here is 3 mil and next door is 1 mil I am best to buy next door. If a balance is found between cost of placing orders at busy stations to the cost at empty stations. I think alot of people would be more willing to move around to find bargins, and seller would also be moving around to find the best balance between volume/profit. With it being a dynamic system there will never be 1 correct place to sell/buy. Also trading corps could be more organised in ensuring there choosen station stocks the "correct" range of items to attact customer to their "Hub". There will always be places that people band together in large numbers for convenience and this will never be full eradicated, I think in some way we need to find a way to make it more attractive to trade away from "hub" environments, And i think this could only be achieved by Rewarding trading away from these area's, punishing trading in them or Both. Also there is ways people can get the convenience of everything at one location. If you set up buy order's at reasonable market pricing ie equivalent to sell order pricing it doesn't take long for the order to be filled.
k Rose Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:13:00 - [83] Lets not turn EVE into a SWG Nightmare Folks, because that what your asking! ------------------------------------- *Recruiting Central Time USA Players for PVP* To enable image please go into your setting and check the box show images!
Beckoner Venhatha	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:17:00 - [84] but if you make it unprofitable to be a trader at one station, for example having a station tax related to av. system occupancy, rather than trading over several systems, the tendency would be to spread out... or to force local raw material costs down...
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:45:00 - [85] Originally by: Yggdrassil How about creating a "super-trade-network", that includes one station from each faction. This network can only be accessed when docked in one of those stations, effectively creating their own ... groan Keep it simple! Complicated, ugly. Baaad. Trade hubs are GOOD!!! Jita is good! Just give people a choice to go there or not, means: change the topology in such a way, that shortest routes won't run through Jita any more. Move agents out of Jita. Don't let missions happen in Jita. Keep it simple. Make it easy. And then! Whoever goes to Jita can blame only themself.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Gnulpie "Don't 'fix' stuff which isn't broken. Industry is NOT broken, so don't change it!" Industry is horribly broken tbh. I can do some lvl4 missions, refine my loot, and build a battleship. Me! And I'm just some function key mashing meat-head with terrible industry skills. Sure it may not be the most efficient battleship build ever, but the fact it is even possible is just silly. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:40:00 - [87] OMG the entire game is Broken! CCP either has to put up with isk sellers, Ebay or Kill the #### game. There are NO two ways about it.. Its logic not rocket science ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.09.23 18:09:00 - [88] Originally by: Akita T So... umm... the patch where all agents are moved OUT of Jita is coming out when ? What about the patch where all other agents near Jita AVOID sending you to or through Jita ? And the patch that adds new (short) Jita-bypass routes AND enables the "avoid Jita" option in the autopilot ? Never I hope - it is the wrong direction to fix Jita. More agents and belts should be moved back there. Any attempt to sustain the unsustainable just makes coming back to reality worse.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.09.24 00:39:00 - [89] Edited by: Misanth on 24/09/2008 00:41:23 Originally by: Avon Industry is horribly broken tbh. I can do some lvl4 missions, refine my loot, and build a battleship. Me! And I'm just some function key mashing meat-head with terrible industry skills. Sure it may not be the most efficient battleship build ever, but the fact it is even possible is just silly. Actually, that shows it's working. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's about what angle you chose to view it from. I.e. that's a one-dimensional way to illustrate it. Same goes for trading or ratting or anything else if you look at it that way. "I spent 1 hour ratting in Syndicate and made 20mil". "I spent 1 hour ratting in Fountain and made 25". Not a big difference really, if you just want to buy a battlecruiser/battleship to rat in, right? What if you rat five hours a day, seven days a week? Same goes for production, and trading, and hell even PvP. What's the difference from having a full t2 ship with lv5 ship skill and gunnery support at 4, compared to one that spent a few months getting all that to 5? It's alot of extra training for a small gain. Time. Margins. Amounts. That's where it show it's working. Over time, the PvPer or industrialist or trader will encounter situations where the skills suddenly pays off, whereas in smaller time/amount it wouldn't. I.e. when I started this game 2005 it took me and my brother 3 weeks to farm us both a Prophecy each, mining in 0.4 while fighting off pirates in our frigates. We trained learning meanwhile. (You know how little skillpoints we started with at that point too btw). Isk is worth less today, it's easier to get logistics done (even in Empire, WTZ was a huge change), etc. I better stop this before it get's way too long, but I think you see the concept. The industrialist building 100 Ravens won't be running lv4's to do it. The margin he gets from his skill is a higher % gain from each Raven produced as well. A player on a personal level will find it nice he can have crap skills and build a Raven if he lacks isk. An industrialist knows he need isk before he even can produce, to invest in BPO's, not to mention all other variables involved. I think your example is showing why the industrial sector is working. A player with no money can still get his stuff, albeit "very expensive", with limited skills. While the industrialist will make a huge profit if he chose to invest time and skill in setting up that business. Terribly long, and I guess you got some good comeback on me anyway, or just simply disagree, but as I said at the start; it's about what angle you view it from. There's alot of variables to take into consideration.
Patrice Macmahon Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.24 02:43:00 - [90] Edited by: Patrice Macmahon on 24/09/2008 02:43:57 A proposal: An Economic approach to moving people away from high Sec Space This would only require modification to the tax code. This is a targeted, scalable tax on sold goods within high sec. It would give competition to markets outside of Highsec, without interfearing with game mechanics. If you want a mid to late game item from high sec, youll pay for it. Want it at a reasonable price, you move lower in the security status. Market hubs would self generate as people establish hubs to re-establish profits, players will follow the lower prices. It would also give a reasonable differential between the Conkord-Doken protected space, and those that require a little risk. The Intakis have an obligatin to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.
Cruel Crow	Posted - 2008.09.24 03:51:00 - [91] Only if we created a new EVE!
Easley Thames The Maverick Navy	Posted - 2008.09.24 06:40:00 - [92] The delivery service, as long as it doesn't cost much, will completely solve over-crowding in trade hubs. If it is not an instant service then perhaps people will consider buying locally (which is a good thing in my opinion) as long as it isn't too much faster to fly to Jita they'd presumably just let the goods come to them and do something productive. Less travel just to shop lets me spend more time having fun, and solves some crowding/lag issues, so I say make it a high priority. If it can apply to contracts in addition to the market then that's even better.
Baldour Ngarr Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:34:00 - [93] Originally by: Gnulpie Trade hubs are GOOD!!! Just give people a choice to go there or not, means: change the topology in such a way, that shortest routes won't run through Jita any more. Move agents out of Jita. Don't let missions happen in Jita. Keep it simple. Make it easy. Unfortunately, these two arguments contradict each other. If you shift the passing trade, mission-runners et al. away from Jita, then Jita won't BE the trade hub any more; it'll migrate to wherever all that passing trade is. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
k Rose Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:26:00 - [94] What he saying is; If Not Jita -> Amarr Station as the new hub. Doesn't matter there is NO ANS. Guys I'm sure CCP Is pounding this problem. Im sure its a logistical NIGHTMARE! SHOW ME THE MONEY To enable image please go into your setting and check the box show images!

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Gnulpie Trade hubs are GOOD!!! Just give people a choice to go there or not, means: change the topology in such a way, that shortest routes won't run through Jita any more. Move agents out of Jita. Don't let missions happen in Jita. Keep it simple. Make it easy. Unfortunately, these two arguments contradict each other. If you shift the passing trade, mission-runners et al. away from Jita, then Jita won't BE the trade hub any more; it'll migrate to wherever all that passing trade is. Actually this is not always true. Once the Trade Hub builds a momentum of its own then removing part or most of the reasons that got it established will not adversely effect that momentum. Jita became a Hub because of a number of factors. 1) the amount of Good quality Level 4 agents in the system 2) being part of the old highway 3) Being close to 4 other regions What has happened since. We removed the Level 4 Agents (and Asteroid belts and manufacturing/Science) soem time ago and Jita continued to grow. Now we are removing the rest of the agents. Also stopping agents from spwaning missions in Jita. We are making a bypass for the Highway, it still goes right next to Jita and does not increase travel time to Jita just allows you to avoid it. We make it so you do not have to go to Jita (alternate route to the closed constellation). What this means is that Jita will now have no additional load OTHER than as a trade hub. This will further allow us to see how much load is the Trade hub and how much is other stuff. We can use that to then plan other Logical measures to reduce the load while supporting the idea of trade hubs. Trade hubs are natural occurrences of any growing economy and trying 'smash' them is pointless. Better to understand them and work to minimise/remove their negative impact on other parts of the game while supporting this natural economic feature. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:01:00 - [96] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Gnulpie Trade hubs are GOOD!!! Just give people a choice to go there or not, means: change the topology in such a way, that shortest routes won't run through Jita any more. Move agents out of Jita. Don't let missions happen in Jita. Keep it simple. Make it easy. Unfortunately, these two arguments contradict each other. If you shift the passing trade, mission-runners et al. away from Jita, then Jita won't BE the trade hub any more; it'll migrate to wherever all that passing trade is. Actually this is not always true. Once the Trade Hub builds a momentum of its own then removing part or most of the reasons that got it established will not adversely effect that momentum. Jita became a Hub because of a number of factors. 1) the amount of Good quality Level 4 agents in the system 2) being part of the old highway 3) Being close to 4 other regions What has happened since. We removed the Level 4 Agents (and Asteroid belts and manufacturing/Science) soem time ago and Jita continued to grow. Now we are removing the rest of the agents. Also stopping agents from spwaning missions in Jita. We are making a bypass for the Highway, it still goes right next to Jita and does not increase travel time to Jita just allows you to avoid it. We make it so you do not have to go to Jita (alternate route to the closed constellation). What this means is that Jita will now have no additional load OTHER than as a trade hub. This will further allow us to see how much load is the Trade hub and how much is other stuff. We can use that to then plan other Logical measures to reduce the load while supporting the idea of trade hubs. Trade hubs are natural occurrences of any growing economy and trying 'smash' them is pointless. Better to understand them and work to minimise/remove their negative impact on other parts of the game while supporting this natural economic feature. you should use one of those cool highway models for the bypass
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.09.24 18:01:00 - [97] Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 22/09/2008 18:33:58 Originally by: Moon Kitten Originally by: CCP Explorer We recently deployed new server-side infrastructure, which allowed Jita to reach 1,400 pilots last Saturday, up from the approx. 900-1000 it supported at maximum before (40-55% improvement). Is this part of the infiniband/supercomputer project or something else? This is something else, but under the same umbrella of re-factoring and making EVE more scalable. This new server-side infrastructure is called StacklessIO and is a new network layer in EVE. We deployed this to Tranquility a week ago, on 16 September. We are going to publish more details about StacklessIO soon, I'm currently drafting a two-part blog with architecture information and measurement results. This new network layer reduces network latency and improves performance in high-volume situations, e.g., in fleet-fights and in Jita. Normally Jita reaches a maximum of about 800-900 pilots on Sundays. Last Friday there were close to 1,000 pilots in Jita and on Saturday the number reached 1,400. We then encountered a problem that we had not even been able to encounter before, the Jita node ran out of memory. So this week we are working on memory improvements to overcome this new and exciting challenge. Fantastic, its looking like a slightly bumpy but very nice path you guys are heading in.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.24 18:48:00 - [98] Originally by: Misanth Terribly long, and I guess you got some good comeback on me anyway, or just simply disagree, but as I said at the start; it's about what angle you view it from. There's alot of variables to take into consideration. Actually, mostly I agree with a lot of what you have said. However, the point I was trying to make was that I can build a battleship, for example, with rubbish skills, totally in high-sec space, with no requirement at all to interact with (or move my ISK to) other players. That is what is broken. It used to be the case that to get things like megacyte or zydrine in anything approaching working quantities you would have to either take a huge risk and mine it in 0.0, or pay the price demanded by those who did. Either you took a risk, or migrated ISK from the safety of high-sec to those who were taking the risk for you. The reduced need for isk migration today is one of big poblems facing Eve. The whole dynamic of industry, travel, and trade needs looking at. With the right model it is possible to improve isk flow (through inter-player dependency), reduce overcrowding, and make trade a far more viable playstyle. Using a regionalisation approach you can have the added benefit of making Empires "feel" different, incorporation of backstory, and inclusion of factional warfare elements. I guess it is just a different view of Eve. I like the idea of a big universe with lots of colour and variety; and others would rather have a smaller, more uniform, even "easier" playground. I'm not saying the second view is wrong, it just isn't the direction I expected Eve to take. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
14of12	Posted - 2008.09.24 19:08:00 - [99] Trade hub of jita is only good for one thing price checks, if i must pay 1 mil or 10 mil more in an other system i take that for granted. If you are 10 or more jumps away from jita it is not word the effort. The time too go there get stuck and get back cost more then a mission with a lvl 3 or 4 agent or mining ice or ore. AK
Panzerkom Caldari PewPewPVE	Posted - 2008.09.24 19:22:00 - [100] First of all, I wanna say the upgrades have been very successful. Jita is MUCH better now. Secondly, as a programmer myself, I'd say that for a future goal, perhaps an adaptive load balancing solution that adjusts how many clusters or servers are used to handle each in-game system might be beneficial. As far as I can tell from what I've read so far, CCP is going with a the approach of using a specific solution to deal a specific problem at the moment, i.e. removing agents to deal with Jita lag. But this will not solve mission hub lags experienced in systems like Motsu and Saila. Obviously, I don't know enough about the coding of the game, but hopefully my two cents can be of help.
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.24 21:55:00 - [101] Happy to see EVE actually looking over their option. I'm guilty of pointing fingers and giving opinion (voicing) AGAINST the game! But as a game players it's good to see devs making this better place to be. As it should be.. ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Captain Organs Veldspar Industries	Posted - 2008.09.25 14:04:00 - [102] Edited by: Captain Organs on 25/09/2008 14:05:01 I think its ridiculous the amount of energy spent on trying to save Jita. I personally have never gone to that cesspool of a system. There are plenty of other market bargains througout New Eden. And by now if anyone doesn't know that Jita is a cesspool and you'll get stuck inside of it for a good long while... well... I pity them. I'd like less energy spent on Jita and more energy spent on real problems. Just my theory. Oh and now anyone on the Minmatar or Gallente side of Faction warfare don't have the option of visiting that system. Now granted I understand a large portion of players use multiple accounts and one such account could be a marketer of Jita.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.09.25 14:24:00 - [103] Originally by: Captain Organs Edited by: Captain Organs on 25/09/2008 14:05:01 I think its ridiculous the amount of energy spent on trying to save Jita. I personally have never gone to that cesspool of a system. There are plenty of other market bargains througout New Eden. And by now if anyone doesn't know that Jita is a cesspool and you'll get stuck inside of it for a good long while... well... I pity them. I'd like less energy spent on Jita and more energy spent on real problems. Just my theory. Oh and now anyone on the Minmatar or Gallente side of Faction warfare don't have the option of visiting that system. Now granted I understand a large portion of players use multiple accounts and one such account could be a marketer of Jita. yes but these all affect other things also ... -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
Gerard Deneth Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.09.29 20:11:00 - [104] Originally by: Captain Organs Edited by: Captain Organs on 25/09/2008 14:05:01 I think its ridiculous the amount of energy spent on trying to save Jita. I personally have never gone to that cesspool of a system. There are plenty of other market bargains througout New Eden. And by now if anyone doesn't know that Jita is a cesspool and you'll get stuck inside of it for a good long while... well... I pity them. Though CCP does also have the nice ability to have a system on TQ that they -know- will be heavily used so they can develop tougher servers and more robust code... (See the stackless stuff :P )
Nic One	Posted - 2008.09.29 20:54:00 - [105] cant some alien race come in and blew the crap outa jita and all contained within ?
Nic One	Posted - 2008.09.29 21:02:00 - [106] or a black hole or something
Strill	Posted - 2008.09.29 22:19:00 - [107] I'm going to send goonswarm a recommendation that they should put 1,024 alts in jita at all times so that no one can go there.
Raimo Gallente dearg doom	Posted - 2008.09.29 22:34:00 - [108] Originally by: Captain Organs Oh and now anyone on the Minmatar or Gallente side of Faction warfare don't have the option of visiting that system. Now granted I understand a large portion of players use multiple accounts and one such account could be a marketer of Jita. Hmm. I shop in Jita all the time... Closest hub from where I FW. It really is not a problem even in Gall Militia. ;)

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