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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.19 18:50:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Alexandra Belani
Not freedom...this time its Justice. A concept which you should learn to embrace...
ya, ransomning corps sounds like justice... the pirate kind. Pay up or we kill you! Sounds Justified!?
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Alexandra Belani
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Posted - 2004.06.19 18:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Alexandra Belani
Not freedom...this time its Justice. A concept which you should learn to embrace...
ya, ransomning corps sounds like justice... the pirate kind. Pay up or we kill you! Sounds Justified!?
Actually it wasnt about paying or we kill you - the principle behind it was gaining recompense for a wrong doing.
Remember Carbide Industries started this by refusing to compensate its players. Crytek retaliated with war.
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Alexandra Belani
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Posted - 2004.06.19 18:54:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Eleese Edited by: Eleese on 19/06/2004 18:49:34
Quote: Interesting thought, however, you do not know of what you speak. Crytek is fighting for the rights of those members and if you think it is pathetic to defend your people with force if necessary, I am very glad that you arent my CEO.
Lmao i think its is pethetic to defend something that happened a month and half ago where the members concerned did nothing at the time nor mention it. Yet now crytek feel like making some cash and alot of publicity, they bring it up. And why the hell would i want to be a ceo when nice people like latta who gives a huge amount of his time to Carbide to help its members, and some people with a weak excuse for war try to slander his name and the corp he has worked hard fors name.
edit spelling
Interesting that you speak of pathetic when you didnt read the chatlogs that this has been going on for over a month already. Crytek attempted to resolve things peacefully, but were not successful in doing so. Thus action must back up their words.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:00:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Alexandra Belani If you cant handle debate dont jump into the ring
You are the one leaving for lunch. What do you want to debate?
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Alexandra Belani
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:02:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Alexandra Belani If you cant handle debate dont jump into the ring
You are the one leaving for lunch. What do you want to debate?
lol ok sparky. A girls gotta eat. Ill resume after lunch.
Like this sig? Check out my sig shoppe.. Zen Jakkaru - "Alexandra Belani (Most sexy terr |
Kelly O'Connor
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:10:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Kelly O'Connor on 19/06/2004 19:11:45
Originally by: Aldelphius
For one reson or another these people left. IMO some left in a hissy fit, and some followed friends. Yes these people worked for the corp. but to imply that they were forced to do anything fails to aknowledge that this IS A GAME. people can do what they want. I have provided millions of isk in the form of mining operations, agent loot, and module sales. But I have to ask myself a question: could i have made that much if I was not part of the corp? NOT AT ALL. Mining in 0.0 under allied protection brings in much, much more than solo mining in the fringe regions of 0.0.
Latta is going outside of what many current members want by even making an offer to these ex-members. Its true they put in a huge effor to get carbide where it is today, but they also benifitd from the corp in terms of ships, modules and insurance. Yes they worked hard, but so do alot of players now who whould be getting the hard shaft if latta were to give into their demands.
Just based on your dialoge, you are acting more as a terrorist than anything else. "we feel wronged - give into our demands or be killed" Thats just not diplomatic at all.
Just because something was earned as a group, does not mean the individuals should not be entitled to some of it. Same with regards to corp.
Eve corps are nothing like real life corps,, corps in eve can dissapear overnight for no more reason other then the CEO got bored, or someone stole the assets.
The socialist model doesnt work, because corps arent true "entities" in eve so all the assets and isk goes to the leaders.
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Chenta Peng
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:18:00 -
[67]
Alexanda, how much does your corp pay members if/when they leave VentureCorp? What exactly is your severance plan for the record? Anyone here left VentureCorp and been compensated to the tune of what Alexandra thinks is fair? Do current VentureCorp members even know that they are earning rights to a future payoff when they leave? Your corp is probably the ONLY corp in EVE that does this Alexandra.. I think I'll stick an alt into your corp so I can earn myself a nice nest egg.
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:21:00 -
[68]
If they wanted any kind of compensation they should have agreed on that when they left and not weeks later under threats of war.
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:36:00 -
[69]
I suggest everyone go and join Venturecorp. According to alexandra everyone is entitled to 200mil a month.
\o/ I'm rich
Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
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galadran
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:36:00 -
[70]
Edited by: galadran on 19/06/2004 19:38:19 ok so, 10 members leave, then just when carbide gets a pass to mine in CoD space the 10 members who left join Crytek. Then they cause probs disrupting the mining operation. 1 month after that they demand to get repayed for what they did in carbide. I am a member of carbide and i have every faith in latta. Thease guys asked for nothing so they got nothing. i am ashamed we offered them anything to begin with.
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2004.06.19 20:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Alexandra Belani
Originally by: Chenta Peng Alexanda, how much does your corp pay members if/when they leave VentureCorp? What exactly is your severance plan for the record? Anyone here left VentureCorp and been compensated to the tune of what Alexandra thinks is fair? Do current VentureCorp members even know that they are earning rights to a future payoff when they leave? Your corp is probably the ONLY corp in EVE that does this Alexandra.. I think I'll stick an alt into your corp so I can earn myself a nice nest egg.
All I am saying is simple decency would state that someone who helps to build an empire should receive fair and just compensation if they are active members and contributing to the good of the whole. Its not rocket science, darling, simple cause and effect.
On Venturecorps retirement policy....I dont know, I didnt join venture asking about those things, and frankly doesnt add much merit to the arguement.
Simple fact. These members did ask for compensation and were mocked, thus war. End of story.
Love and Freedom Alexandra
PS. Rthor. I digress, you get the spam award this time. http://www.spam.com
PSS DarkenTwo: Real intelligent argument mate.
Alexandra, I dont see any argument of even the remotest merit that you are able to put forward on this issue. If they didnt ask for compensation when they left, they have no rights now. If they truly believed they were being ripped off, they should have left a long time ago instead of sticking for 8 months. Also the venturecorp argument is very valid. Supposing I join venture corp and leave after a month can I expect your support when I ask for compensation for around 200mil isk? By your previous statements I would think you would strongly support any such demand for compensation.
Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
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Alexandra Belani
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Posted - 2004.06.19 21:05:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Darken Two
Originally by: Alexandra Belani
Originally by: Chenta Peng Alexanda, how much does your corp pay members if/when they leave VentureCorp? What exactly is your severance plan for the record? Anyone here left VentureCorp and been compensated to the tune of what Alexandra thinks is fair? Do current VentureCorp members even know that they are earning rights to a future payoff when they leave? Your corp is probably the ONLY corp in EVE that does this Alexandra.. I think I'll stick an alt into your corp so I can earn myself a nice nest egg.
All I am saying is simple decency would state that someone who helps to build an empire should receive fair and just compensation if they are active members and contributing to the good of the whole. Its not rocket science, darling, simple cause and effect.
On Venturecorps retirement policy....I dont know, I didnt join venture asking about those things, and frankly doesnt add much merit to the arguement.
Simple fact. These members did ask for compensation and were mocked, thus war. End of story.
Love and Freedom Alexandra
PS. Rthor. I digress, you get the spam award this time. http://www.spam.com
PSS DarkenTwo: Real intelligent argument mate.
Alexandra, I dont see any argument of even the remotest merit that you are able to put forward on this issue. If they didnt ask for compensation when they left, they have no rights now. If they truly believed they were being ripped off, they should have left a long time ago instead of sticking for 8 months. Also the venturecorp argument is very valid. Supposing I join venture corp and leave after a month can I expect your support when I ask for compensation for around 200mil isk? By your previous statements I would think you would strongly support any such demand for compensation.
[ 2004.06.18 18:34:54 ] Talsarius > the situation is this... various members made various requests at different times both before and after leaving the corp... [ 2004.06.18 18:35:08 ] Talsarius > but recieved similar responses [ 2004.06.18 18:35:58 ] Nyota Watua > Where were the requests sumbitted please [ 2004.06.18 18:36:41 ] Nyota Watua > I ask because I have seen no such requests and our members ask the same question [ 2004.06.18 18:37:09 ] MOSSY > I asked latta just after we left and I got should I say a bad reply [ 2004.06.18 18:37:32 ] Nyota Watua > May I ask what you requested at that time and what the respoone was?
Talsarius CEO of Crytek inc.
Talsarius Caldari Crytek Inc. Posted - 2004.06.19 12:58:00 - Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ 2004.06.18 18:38:23 ] MOSSY > I ask for nothing as such just the chance of severnce pay [ 2004.06.18 18:38:33 ] Nyota Watua > in what amount? [ 2004.06.18 18:38:41 ] Talsarius > he did not specify an amount [ 2004.06.18 18:38:49 ] Nyota Watua > I see [ 2004.06.18 18:39:00 ] MOSSY > I did not get the chance to say on amount [ 2004.06.18 18:39:22 ] Latta > Mossy, i do not want to go into a mudslinger on this one [ 2004.06.18 18:39:31 ] Latta > are you referring to that night on TS? [ 2004.06.18 18:39:39 ] Talsarius > i dont want to cover old ground [ 2004.06.18 18:39:54 ] Talsarius > to avoid this getting out of hand - i would like to continue with what i was going to say [ 2004.06.18 18:39:58 ] Latta > this is not old ground in my opinion [ 2004.06.18 18:40:08 ] Nyota Watua > Mossy...you are aware that you could have posted in our public forums at that time what you believed to be owed you? [ 2004.06.18 18:40:11 ] MOSSY > I dont know what the others ask for at that time just got told I would not get anything They asked....they were denied, thus war. Simple as that.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.19 21:24:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Hakera on 19/06/2004 22:24:29
/me sighs.....
Alexandra, your very good at playing the captilist line, but your not dealing with capitalism here.
Let me refresh you with the meaning of socialism...
Quote: In socialism, everybody would have free access to the goods and services designed to directly meet their needs and there need be no system of payment for the work that each individual contributes to producing them. All work would be on a voluntary basis. Producing for needs means that people would engage in work that has a direct usefulness. The satisfaction that this would provide, along with the increased opportunity to shape working patterns and conditions, would bring about new attitudes to work
now, you can sling in the old sayings like "All for one, and one for all!" etc into this type of corp model.
Notice the emphasis on this model, it is NOT about the individual. If individuals want paid above their 'needs' then your dealing with captialism, and that is not what Carbide is. The players who left know this (or should). They should have realised this when they joined a Socialist corp and when they spent many hours working along side their former corp members who they now try to rob from issuing such greivance as 'money owed'. Well yes, it would be money owed had they been in a capitalist corp where the individual takes priority.
Your trying to force one system upon another and the two cant mix. And yes socialism does work given the willing voluntary participation of all members (the system wont work if only a few members play by those rules). It is the limitation of Eve mechanics and the obvious nature of trust ingame that prevent everyone with seeing directly the whole assets of the corp, but I am pretty sure the corp is kept updated on what exactly Carbide owns and how well they are doing and from what I see, there are many more happy Carbidians than greedy ex-members now turned pirate (and trying to ransom their old corp)
Now you can harp on about how you think they are owed this (and in a capitalist system they are), but in a socialist system they are damn lucky that they were allowed to walk away with their ships.
Said it before, I'll say it again, Crytek (a corp composed of mostly pirates or former pirates) is just using this as an excuse to ransom a peaceful mining corp based soley upon the grudge of a few ex-members as a petty excuse for war. No doubt Talsarius is loving this grudging 'duty' of his to ransom Carbide and at the same time trying to play justice line to everyone while getting a free pass to shoot at another corp who have done nothing wrong other than be different from the majority.
Crytek can spin this anyway they want, they still are nothing more than pirates and wannabe thieves.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Rthor
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Posted - 2004.06.19 21:31:00 -
[74]
I think Alex is really doing a disservice to Crytec in this thread. We dont know anything about them but she seems to be their advocate so I hope she is working pro bono for them or they are getting ripped off again.
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Commander Talon
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Posted - 2004.06.19 21:46:00 -
[75]
I joined Carbide and work to make Carbide stronger, in return for my work I have the support of Carbide and my corp mates.
If I were to leave Carbide of my own free will I think everyone would agree it would be lame and rather stupid of me to ask for everything I ever gave to the corp to be returned to me.
This is not how Carbide and alot of other corps work, You work for the Corp and the Corp works for you, leaving the corp means leaving behind that support.
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Ayako
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Posted - 2004.06.19 21:48:00 -
[76]
Alex, I was about to write a long reply but it seems you are probably friends of Crytek or some disgruntled former members of Carbide. Efforts were made by Carbide to try to settle this on numerous occasions but the demands were just too out of proportions to be reasonable and no one could agree on what was fair and just. They understood the polivies set by Carbide and frankly, were in positions to challenge those if they wanted to (being officers and directors even) but they chose to leave instead .
This has been going on for too long and it just saddens me to see it had to come to war over such trivial issues of greed, jealousy and feigned bad treatment. I'm afraid I don't see any end to this as pride will just prevent any side from stopping this madness.
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Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2004.06.19 22:14:00 -
[77]
This is just pathetic.
People who play in socialist corporations know what they are getting into when they join. A good socialist corporation is built around a solid memberbase which puts effort into the corporation, inorder to benefit from the strength of the corporation. If you decide to leave at a later point in time, by own free will, then its your issue and not that of the corporation.
Crytek's demands are not only baseless but also ridicously high. Although I have no problem with blackmailing corps, or going to war for the hell of it, disguising the entire thing behind some stupid baseless accusation is simply lame. I'm inclined to retract the current war against Carbide, and to attack Crytek instead, simply because they annoy me.
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Alexandra Belani
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Posted - 2004.06.19 22:33:00 -
[78]
Amazing to me that a debate must turn into personal slurs and attacks. Opinions are welcome, differing viewpoints and perspectives, given freely and without lending to flamage or trolling simply because you don't like someone or the corporation they are in.
I will say this and it will be my final post on the subject.
Socialist or not. Friendships and decency and honour dictate that compensation is necessary when one leaves a corporation over grievances. I will not debate the semantics of socialism versus capitalism, only base this on recognition of contributions made by active corp members, and state emphatically - letting them leave without providing something for them to go on was wrong. Simply stated, I don't agree which is within my right to do so. I will not sling mud, flame, or troll on this subject, thats what people do who can't debate intelligently.
Thank you to all who have offered substantial replies with knowledgable information, you know who you are.
Love and Freedom Alexandra
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Propehcy
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Posted - 2004.06.19 22:41:00 -
[79]
Alexi said something about me on the other page.. She's prolly right.. She's smarter then me .
-The DarkHand
** Ex-CA Rep and Ex-CA Member **
http://www.designegrafix.com/eve/prop5.jpg
Props Chop Shop: Ships, Arms, and Armaments producer for Northern Eve! Located at Torrinos 5 - 6 - Home Guard Assembley.
The Prop And Notferr Chronicles
Notferr> Propehcy Owns me! Yet I feel so much Fear in his Evil Presence! Propehcy> Bow Down, You know who your Master is. Notferr> Only Prop is King!! Only Prop!! I Am nothing! Propehcy> I think Stav would be Proud.
Propehcy> I Need a Tool... Where is that Notferr...
[ 2004.09.11 28:63:98 ] Propehcy 2004.09.11 29:05:33.3 combat Your Miner II perfectly strikes Notferr, wrecking for WTFPWNAGE. |
Alexandra Belani
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Posted - 2004.06.19 22:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Propehcy Alexi said something about me on the other page.. She's prolly right.. She's smarter then me .
-The DarkHand
I still love ya! (ok I broke my rule of not posting anymore cos i love propehcy)
Like this sig? Check out my sig shoppe.. Zen Jakkaru - "Alexandra Belani (Most sexy terr |
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Deveraux
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Posted - 2004.06.19 23:02:00 -
[81]
Hehe, what is funny about this is that the ex-carbide guys are complaining about the leadership of carbide ripping them off. The fact is, these guys WERE the leadership of carbide. 3 directors, and 7 officers by my count. It isn't as if they were in no position to change any situation they didn't like. And please, if you can't bring up some evidence about this ebay thing will you just stop mentioning it? Christ, I can log into lattas accounts anytime I want to. Tell me what to look for and I'll look for it even. Otherwise, just leave the ebay thing alone. And the bpo's? It has been discussed many times, and beaten to death. Every time it is talked about we come to the same conclusion. We all WANT the bpo's to be on one person. It isn't as if Latta is holding them hostage. He's offered many times to put them in a corp research slot, and every time we insist that they remain on his account rather then in the corp hangar or research slot. I do wish you all would just admit you're declaring this war just cuz you are itching for some pvp. Atleast then it would make sense. |
conspirator
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Posted - 2004.06.20 00:46:00 -
[82]
im sure this is one big conspiracy |
Finderne
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Posted - 2004.06.20 03:26:00 -
[83]
I haven't read the whole thread yet, it's quite a long read and it popped up in the last day. So I'll keep my comments to a couple narrow points.
Alex did some very generous math based on what she earns per month now. Were you able to do that pre-Castor? Do you remember how rare ark/bist was for months then? And where you earning that when your char was 1-2 months old? You projecting what a year+ old char can accomplish today backwards very far there.
Another point about the claimants. These people were not clones. Here's Carbide employment of the ex-Carbide in Crytek now: memex - 10/7/03 to 4/24/04 (5 mo) DKMetz - 6/14/03 to 4/8/04 (10 mo) avapsi - CI from 1/9/04 to 4/7/04 (4 mo) valmarc - 11/10/03 to 1/28/2004 (1.5 months, joined CI at 1 mo old) SE25 - 11/9/03 to 2/6/04 (3 mo) moses - 11/9/03 to 1/28/04 (12 mo) wolfchild - 11/10/03 to 2/2/04 (3 mo, brand new char on joining) mossy - 6/23/03 to 4/7/04 (9 mo) silk- 11/10/03 to 4/3/04 (5 mo, gone from Eve at least a month in there) soul searcher - 6/23/03 to 4/7/04 (9 mo) noflabor - 8/24/03 to 4/7/04, (7 mo)
Most of them were in for much less than a year or 8 months which is variously claimed in debates. Nor were they all 0.0 miners. Some were mostly Empire miners, some were agent-runners. None of them were 0.0 miners constantly.
One other thing before I forget. These ppl did not make any demands upon leaving. Many of them posted cordial little goodbye messages on our public forum: CI public forum I don't know what discussions went on behind closed doors, but AFAIK the demands for repayment started with a few ex-CI members at least one month later. They rallied other ex-CI members to this cause as time went on. And a bunch of ex-Killer Klowns and other failed pirates.
To sum up, few of them were in CI anywhere near the length of time being claimed now. Simple technical details, but so much of this is "He said, She said" stuff that I think the few provable facts are important. Note - don't construe this to think I support paying them anything. I'm just trying to deflate their story that has convinced some ppl.
ps - Thank you Femme for your words of support. (Her corp, Going Limp, has been at war with CI for months now to pirate our Empire operations). Our dealing with you have been painful at times and fun at others. But many of our members were not around during FA, and can thank your corporation for what PVP training we've had in the last few months.
pss - There is an ironic recruitment twist here. If you believe the pro-Carbide camp, you will join a great group of ppl (and never become the richest player in EVE). If you believe the anti-Carbide camp, you can join us and leave after a few months then blackmail Carbide for billions. You probably won't get quite that much, but you never know...
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Deveraux
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Posted - 2004.06.20 03:34:00 -
[84]
Hehe, yeah. Our new corporate goal is to get 107 billion isk in our wallet so that when each member leaves they can get their billion isk. JOIN CARBIDE! After some months you get a BILLION isk! Just make sure that you are nasty to us and are completely unreasonable. Because, if you are only nice and fair all you'll get is another battleship if you want it, and enough isk to get a full set of implants. |
Dhan
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Posted - 2004.06.20 05:25:00 -
[85]
Talsarius, your arrogance in the discussions with Latta and your inability to follow an argument based on logic has not earned you any respect with what i suspect is most people reading this thread.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.06.20 05:46:00 -
[86]
To Alex:
You use a patronizing and grandiose tone and style in your posts throughout the forums. So do not be surprised if people call you on your bull****.
Everything that you have said in this thread could have been said in one or two sentences and there are other people who said things much more pertinent or intelligent here and they have the right to have their voice not drowned by your posts. That was my point.
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Propehcy
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Posted - 2004.06.20 07:36:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Rthor To Alex:
You use a patronizing and grandiose tone and style in your posts throughout the forums. So do not be surprised if people call you on your bull****.
Everything that you have said in this thread could have been said in one or two sentences and there are other people who said things much more pertinent or intelligent here and they have the right to have their voice not drowned by your posts. That was my point.
Dude, have you SEEN Jades posts? You're climbin' the wrong tree buddy. Alexi posts with Intelligance, which is less the I can say for many others that have posted here.. Either be part of the debate or be quiet.
-The DarkHand
** Ex-CA Rep and Ex-CA Member **
http://www.designegrafix.com/eve/prop5.jpg
Props Chop Shop: Ships, Arms, and Armaments producer for Northern Eve! Located at Torrinos 5 - 6 - Home Guard Assembley.
The Prop And Notferr Chronicles
Notferr> Propehcy Owns me! Yet I feel so much Fear in his Evil Presence! Propehcy> Bow Down, You know who your Master is. Notferr> Only Prop is King!! Only Prop!! I Am nothing! Propehcy> I think Stav would be Proud.
Propehcy> I Need a Tool... Where is that Notferr...
[ 2004.09.11 28:63:98 ] Propehcy 2004.09.11 29:05:33.3 combat Your Miner II perfectly strikes Notferr, wrecking for WTFPWNAGE. |
Tbone
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Posted - 2004.06.20 09:08:00 -
[88]
Im showing my support for Latta and CAR. They have been nothing but great friends with me and support many many of my war habits. I know how they work and they do it well as a corp. ****, forgot what i was thinking.
Oh well, go CAR. -----------------------------------------------
Unholy Killboard
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Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2004.06.20 09:28:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Propehcy
Dude, have you SEEN Jades posts? You're climbin' the wrong tree buddy. Alexi posts with Intelligance, which is less the I can say for many others that have posted here.. Either be part of the debate or be quiet.
-The DarkHand
Actually her arguments have been weak, baseless, and pretty much hollow. She uses the same old points over and over again while her counterparts refute them again and again. Throughout the thread her arguments have been torn apart, and in the end she stands as a fool for trying to defend such an implausible act of cowardice on the part of Crytek.
Alexi doesnt even come close to the class of Jade, and I doubt she ever will. For that her posts are too easy to call as the transparent nonsense they are.
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Lallante
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Posted - 2004.06.20 09:32:00 -
[90]
Yeah I think intelligent may be a little inaccurate. Blindly persistant? perhaps.
Alexandra you critiscise Carbide for telling its friends of its difficulties and accepting their support. Yet its clear that Crytek have paid you to fight their forum battles (that they started) for them! As someone else said...they are getting ripped off again :P
Can I inferr from your arrogant and aggressive posts that You and Notferr will be joining the war on the side of Crytek?
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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