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F.O.F Cruise - Can it be fixed within the next year or two?

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Herring Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.09.29 01:02:00 - [1] Here's a link to the problem originally reported back before I started playing eve: 2005 I've bugreported the issue myself. I've posted about it in the assembly hall. As a character who uses f.o.f.'s as a primary defense against falcons, I have f.o.f missiles trained to 5 (boost ECCM pls). What they don't do, is target things to the extent that their velocity and flight times say they should. 80km is the magical cutoff point at which point your launchers will stop firing and tell you that they have no viable targets in range. Despite the fact that there's a falcon sitting at 90km jamming you. Now, I've nothing against the falcon pilots. They're doing what they're good at doing...but when my skills and missiles say they should hit something at 200km+, a bug that shuts launchers off if aggressed targets move more than 80k away from you should have really been addressed a long, long time ago. Fix it.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.09.29 01:11:00 - [2] fixxor! I almost trained fofs.... then I saw one of these posts about max range of 80km
Commanderess	Posted - 2008.09.29 01:42:00 - [3] Edited by: Commanderess on 29/09/2008 01:43:18 stealth falcon nerf thread Edit: I also predict this thread will be derailed into a full blown falcon nerf thread
LoKesh Amarr InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.09.29 03:22:00 - [4] What ship are you flying? and more importantly what is your lock range? FoF missiles will only respond to threats within your targeting range. Once upon a time this meant that sensor damps would screw with FoF missiles, but they fixed that. It makes me wonder if they fixed that by making FoF range = default range of the ship type. xFoundation, xVC, xRISE Proudly serving Skunk-Works
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.09.29 04:06:00 - [5] Originally by: LoKesh What ship are you flying? and more importantly what is your lock range? FoF missiles will only respond to threats within your targeting range. Once upon a time this meant that sensor damps would screw with FoF missiles, but they fixed that. It makes me wonder if they fixed that by making FoF range = default range of the ship type. Could be... anyone got a stealth bomber to test it out with? But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Herring Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.09.29 05:40:00 - [6] Originally by: LoKesh What ship are you flying? and more importantly what is your lock range? FoF missiles will only respond to threats within your targeting range. Once upon a time this meant that sensor damps would screw with FoF missiles, but they fixed that. It makes me wonder if they fixed that by making FoF range = default range of the ship type. I've tried it with the following ships: Scorpion Raven Golem Manticore All of them cut off at the same range, 80km. I was using sensor boosters on all, but only on the raven is my base lock range close to 80k (@82k for raven, 103k for golem, etc before sensor boosters) What I'd like to see is someone trying this with a heavy f.o.f. cerb to see if it also has this restriction.
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.29 06:08:00 - [7] Assuming what you've all said here is true, (And there is no reason to doubt you) if crap like this is still in the game when the ******ed idea of walking in stations comes out I'll probably cry. I reckon even I could fix the code for this with VB 7 as the extent of my programming experience. sXe
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.09.29 08:04:00 - [8] The caldari tears ...they are so sweet :D
Imaos	Posted - 2008.09.29 08:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Warrio Assuming what you've all said here is true, (And there is no reason to doubt you) if crap like this is still in the game when the ****ed idea of walking in stations comes out I'll probably cry. I reckon even I could fix the code for this with VB 7 as the extent of my programming experience. Doubt you could find the place in the code with VB as your programming experience. Back to topic: All F.o.F.s can target up to 80km on their own and up to full range with the assistance of the ship's computer. So if you can't lock yourself the F.oF.'s locking range takes over which is 80km. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by:** NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.09.29 08:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Burn Mac The caldari tears ...they are so sweet :D I'd like to have it work on a SB, too. I think every race has one. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.29 08:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Imaos Back to topic: All F.o.F.s can target up to 80km on their own and up to full range with the assistance of the ship's computer. So if you can't lock yourself the F.oF.'s locking range takes over which is 80km. Imaos In my experience locking targets above 80 km does not make FoF to engage them. You get just message, that there is no suitable targets in range.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.29 09:09:00 - [12] Yes, despite being a Falcon pilot, I want this fixed. FoFs are supposed to be the counter to ECM, if people get a counter that actually works, maybe they'll stop whining about other nerfs.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2008.09.29 12:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, despite being a Falcon pilot, I want this fixed. FoFs are supposed to be the counter to ECM, if people get a counter that actually works, maybe they'll stop whining about other nerfs. And there we come down to the nice debate of useless modules/items in eve, that were broken for years and werent fixed and wont get fixed by ccp : )
iudex Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.09.29 14:01:00 - [14] I don't think it's a bug, the 80km range for cruise FOFs has been always there, as long as i can remember. If you'd remove that, you'd have a ship that can fire for well over 300km (range rigs+implants) without fitting a singel sensor booster. This would be out of balance. On the other side 80km seems to be too low for a high-range weapon such as cruise missiles, especially as it can be out-ranged by ships against which it's made for. A good compromise might be that FoFs fire as far as your ship can target (theoretical target range [ship+skills+modules], not counting hostile sensor dampener or ecm effects), but i seriously doubt that this will ever be looked into. _________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.60 // Angel Cartel +7.31 // Minmatar Republic -8.56 // Gallente Federation -9.71
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.09.29 14:12:00 - [15] Originally by: iudex I don't think it's a bug, the 80km range for cruise FOFs has been always there, as long as i can remember. If you'd remove that, you'd have a ship that can fire for well over 300km (range rigs+implants) without fitting a singel sensor booster. This would be out of balance. On the other side 80km seems to be too low for a high-range weapon such as cruise missiles, especially as it can be out-ranged by ships against which it's made for. A good compromise might be that FoFs fire as far as your ship can target (theoretical target range [ship+skills+modules], not counting hostile sensor dampener or ecm effects), but i seriously doubt that this will ever be looked into. I would add sensor dampeners into the equation you propose, that would at least give them something over ECM, which is mostly superior atm.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.09.29 15:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Imaos Back to topic: All F.o.F.s can target up to 80km on their own and up to full range with the assistance of the ship's computer. So if you can't lock yourself the F.oF.'s locking range takes over which is 80km. Imaos In my experience locking targets above 80 km does not make FoF to engage them. You get just message, that there is no suitable targets in range. I tested it half a year ago and they just worked like normal cruise missiles (albeit reduced damage) when I locked a target >= 90km in my SB. Imaos
Imaos	Posted - 2008.09.29 15:18:00 - [17] Originally by: iudex I don't think it's a bug, the 80km range for cruise FOFs has been always there, as long as i can remember. If you'd remove that, you'd have a ship that can fire for well over 300km (range rigs+implants) without fitting a singel sensor booster. This would be out of balance. On the other side 80km seems to be too low for a high-range weapon such as cruise missiles, especially as it can be out-ranged by ships against which it's made for. A good compromise might be that FoFs fire as far as your ship can target (theoretical target range [ship+skills+modules], not counting hostile sensor dampener or ecm effects), but i seriously doubt that this will ever be looked into. F.o.F.s use an onboard guideance system (and a smaller warhead) so having the ship affect F.o.F.s max targetting range is quite awkward. F.o.F.s are also used to counter various EWAR and not just falcons. Boosting F.oF.s isn't the solution: the effective range on a standard ECM is just too big on a normal fit. It would be much better if you had a roaming gang ECM fit and a sniping ECM fit(more range less tank) instead of the one universal range fit. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.29 16:12:00 - [18] I didn't get this. The FOF's have a targeting range of 80 km. Your ship's targeting range doesn't matter. No bug here.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.09.29 16:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Tasko Pal I didn't get this. The FOF's have a targeting range of 80 km. Your ship's targeting range doesn't matter. No bug here. Given the most common reason that the FOF missiles are used is for ECM countermeasures, the inability to deliver the missile out to the range the falcon operates at is fairly silly, intended or otherwise. If the missile cannot fufil it's objective, it becomes pointless does it not? If you want a compromise here, one can certainly find one easy enough. In exchange for AI that has a decent target selection priority (i.e. ships firing ECM at you, ships firing at you, ships firing ecm at gangmate, ships firing at gangmates as a probable target selection priority) and the ability to engage a target at the range of the missile, I'll trade damage (1/2 damage of a t1 cruise), and potentially acuracy (explosion radius penalty). It doesn't take much to drive an ECM ship from the field afterall.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.29 16:25:00 - [20] It's just a bit misleading because they still have a "max flight time" stat listed afaik. By asking for that fix you will probably just have that stat removed in the infoscreen or something
Herring Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.09.29 21:17:00 - [21] Edited by: Herring on 29/09/2008 21:20:04 Originally by: Imaos Originally by: iudex I don't think it's a bug, the 80km range for cruise FOFs has been always there, as long as i can remember. If you'd remove that, you'd have a ship that can fire for well over 300km (range rigs+implants) without fitting a singel sensor booster. This would be out of balance. On the other side 80km seems to be too low for a high-range weapon such as cruise missiles, especially as it can be out-ranged by ships against which it's made for. A good compromise might be that FoFs fire as far as your ship can target (theoretical target range [ship+skills+modules], not counting hostile sensor dampener or ecm effects), but i seriously doubt that this will ever be looked into. F.o.F.s use an onboard guideance system (and a smaller warhead) so having the ship affect F.o.F.s max targetting range is quite awkward. F.o.F.s are also used to counter various EWAR and not just falcons. Boosting F.oF.s isn't the solution: the effective range on a standard ECM is just too big on a normal fit. It would be much better if you had a roaming gang ECM fit and a sniping ECM fit(more range less tank) instead of the one universal range fit. Imaos No offense but are you just pulling that logic out of your ass, or is there a link I can actually read that this is what 's intended for this system to be there? Also I disagree with you on the range thing. If it's meant to be a counter, then it should work. Up to the lock range of the ship. And I don't say this without precedent. If you have say a domi with three DLA's on it, and you've got your drones out and someone ecm's you those drones will chase anyone still inside your drone lock range, (and then beyond if the target attempts to mwd away). Or I can assign my drones to help a buddy and then drop a can and smartbomb it. Drones will then attack anything else [edit - anything else that has aggroed you] within ~110km. There's no reason to say 'this is like this, has always been like this and should not change' when it's intended to be a counter, but it's limited to being a counter for mid to close ranges, when the primary ship it's intended to be a counter for commonly operates at 150km+.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.09.29 22:27:00 - [22] Well, technically ALL cruise missiles have on board guidance (hence why they are affected by the guided missile skills). FOF Missiles would also have to have onboard target acquisition and discrimination systems which would logically cut down on either warhead or fuel capacity. Even if the missiles onboard sensors WERE short ranged, it stands to reason they wouldn't simply turn off after 80km - instead that would repsesent the sphere around the missile where they could detect, and prioritize a target. It would as such stand to reason that, even if a missile is launched with no potential target available within 80km of the ship where the missile is stored it could be fired in a dumb fashion (i.e. straight ahead) and it could detect a target enroute. The downside to this idea is it would actually generate a weapon capable of cross grid fighting, and that would most certainly result in screams for a nerf.
Herring Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:17:00 - [23] Originally by: Derek Sigres Well, technically ALL cruise missiles have on board guidance (hence why they are affected by the guided missile skills). FOF Missiles would also have to have onboard target acquisition and discrimination systems which would logically cut down on either warhead or fuel capacity. Even if the missiles onboard sensors WERE short ranged, it stands to reason they wouldn't simply turn off after 80km - instead that would repsesent the sphere around the missile where they could detect, and prioritize a target. It would as such stand to reason that, even if a missile is launched with no potential target available within 80km of the ship where the missile is stored it could be fired in a dumb fashion (i.e. straight ahead) and it could detect a target enroute. The downside to this idea is it would actually generate a weapon capable of cross grid fighting, and that would most certainly result in screams for a nerf. They already have diminished damage compared to a t1 variant which implies lower warhead capacity, theoretically to house the onboard tracking mechanism. A missile that could be fired all the time but not seek targets until they came within range...if I'm thinking what you're thinking, they'd just go in a straight line until they found an enemy? So you'd have to align toward your opponent, at least roughly to get them to work. And the cross grid thing, not so cool as you say. There should be a way to get them to use the lock range you have on your ship now instead of the hard coded 80km. Simple as that. That lock range should include rigs, skills, sensor boosters, etc. Otherwise it's just not an effective counter. And that's why I started this thread in the first place.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Herring Originally by: Derek Sigres Well, technically ALL cruise missiles have on board guidance (hence why they are affected by the guided missile skills). FOF Missiles would also have to have onboard target acquisition and discrimination systems which would logically cut down on either warhead or fuel capacity. Even if the missiles onboard sensors WERE short ranged, it stands to reason they wouldn't simply turn off after 80km - instead that would repsesent the sphere around the missile where they could detect, and prioritize a target. It would as such stand to reason that, even if a missile is launched with no potential target available within 80km of the ship where the missile is stored it could be fired in a dumb fashion (i.e. straight ahead) and it could detect a target enroute. The downside to this idea is it would actually generate a weapon capable of cross grid fighting, and that would most certainly result in screams for a nerf. They already have diminished damage compared to a t1 variant which implies lower warhead capacity, theoretically to house the onboard tracking mechanism. A missile that could be fired all the time but not seek targets until they came within range...if I'm thinking what you're thinking, they'd just go in a straight line until they found an enemy? So you'd have to align toward your opponent, at least roughly to get them to work. And the cross grid thing, not so cool as you say. There should be a way to get them to use the lock range you have on your ship now instead of the hard coded 80km. Simple as that. That lock range should include rigs, skills, sensor boosters, etc. Otherwise it's just not an effective counter. And that's why I started this thread in the first place. The argument I made was about the theory of operation of the missiles and why statements that "it shouldn't work" are just plain silly. There is no particular REASON why FOF's cut off at 80km - it's an arbitrary limit. If there is really all that much fear that a cruise misile (highly damaging at extreme range but, let's face it they aren't exacly delivering hull crushing DPS) that doens't need a lock might be overpowered if it had the range to accomplish what it's supposed to (hit a target without a lock, often at extreme range), then one can justify a further reduction in damage. Yes, 50% dps from a t1 missile is a hell of a hit to take, but it's infinitely more damage than gunboat can deliver when jammed. I don't really think the DPS hit is necessary. The only people who would really need to fear a single Raven's worth of FOF's is a recon, and let's face it - everyone loves to see a recon explode.
Herring Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Derek Sigres The argument I made was about the theory of operation of the missiles and why statements that "it shouldn't work" are just plain silly. There is no particular REASON why FOF's cut off at 80km - it's an arbitrary limit. If there is really all that much fear that a cruise misile (highly damaging at extreme range but, let's face it they aren't exacly delivering hull crushing DPS) that doens't need a lock might be overpowered if it had the range to accomplish what it's supposed to (hit a target without a lock, often at extreme range), then one can justify a further reduction in damage. Yes, 50% dps from a t1 missile is a hell of a hit to take, but it's infinitely more damage than gunboat can deliver when jammed. I don't really think the DPS hit is necessary. The only people who would really need to fear a single Raven's worth of FOF's is a recon, and let's face it - everyone loves to see a recon explode. Now that I can't argue with.
Tac Ginaz The Righteous Few	Posted - 2008.10.01 01:01:00 - [26] Range is the least of the bugs in the FOF missiles. The biggest one is that they target ANY hostile within range and will home in on the closest hostile. Sound good right? Well, thing is.. they currently lock onto your wingman (who is in your fleet and your corp). Why? Because your fleetmate fired on another ship and blingbling! he has a hostile mark on his ship. hence, the FOF homes on him. its utter bull and its incredible that CCP has not fixed this missile in all these years. I guess its more important for them to make the game more accessible to the infamous chinese gold farmers than to fixing gameplay bugs.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.10.01 01:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Tac Ginaz Range is the least of the bugs in the FOF missiles. The biggest one is that they target ANY hostile within range and will home in on the closest hostile. Sound good right? Well, thing is.. they currently lock onto your wingman (who is in your fleet and your corp). Why? Because your fleetmate fired on another ship and blingbling! he has a hostile mark on his ship. hence, the FOF homes on him. its utter bull and its incredible that CCP has not fixed this missile in all these years. I guess its more important for them to make the game more accessible to the infamous chinese gold farmers than to fixing gameplay bugs. Along with random stationary objects...
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.01 03:55:00 - [28] Edited by: Soporo on 01/10/2008 03:57:19 Cerb with HML is 80km too. Well under my default lock range for the ship which is 96km. Quote: Along with random stationary objects... But this is my biggest gripe with FOF actually. the snapperhead damping and whaling on me is obviously less a threat than that eye candy structure.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.10.01 11:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Tasko Pal I didn't get this. The FOF's have a targeting range of 80 km. Your ship's targeting range doesn't matter. No bug here. Given the most common reason that the FOF missiles are used is for ECM countermeasures, the inability to deliver the missile out to the range the falcon operates at is fairly silly, intended or otherwise. If the missile cannot fufil it's objective, it becomes pointless does it not? Um. When did ECM become the only reason to use F.o.F.s? Oh wait, it happened when they nerfed damps on specialized ships. F.o.F.s have uses, but they fail at going for the falcon in a distance and not only because of the range, but his teammates are much closer. Quote: If you want a compromise here, one can certainly find one easy enough. In exchange for AI that has a decent target selection priority (i.e. ships firing ECM at you, ships firing at you, ships firing ecm at gangmate, ships firing at gangmates as a probable target selection priority) and the ability to engage a target at the range of the missile, I'll trade damage (1/2 damage of a t1 cruise), and potentially acuracy (explosion radius penalty). It doesn't take much to drive an ECM ship from the field afterall. That would be an easy button for fleet fights. Just put a dumb alt in a cruise raven and let it fire to remove support. F.o.F.s help out to deal with close-by ships while damped or ECMd, but it isnt there to remove the support. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.10.01 11:07:00 - [30] Originally by: fuxinos Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, despite being a Falcon pilot, I want this fixed. FoFs are supposed to be the counter to ECM, if people get a counter that actually works, maybe they'll stop whining about other nerfs. And there we come down to the nice debate of useless modules/items in eve, that were broken for years and werent fixed and wont get fixed by ccp : ) Maybe you just need to adjust your perception of the missiles. They aren't to remove the annoying EWAR. They are to mitigate the effects of the EWAR. They aren't useless at all. Ships that can still shhot are better than ships that can't do anything under lockdown. 3 BS with F.o.F. cruises vs 2 BS + 1 falcon have a good chance to drive them off compared to 3 torp bs waiting to die. Imaos

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