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Taedrin
Gallente
Celestial Ascension
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:32:00 -
[1]
Where is the line that defines when YOU think it's ethical to log out?
It is obvious that different people have different opinions about where this line is.
-For example, logging out during combat seems to strike the wrong chord with the PvP community, but has been defended by some of the carebear community (this doesn't work anymore, though, right?)
-The pirate community seems to frown upon logging out before combat but after jumping into a gate camp.
These examples are pretty clear cut. The player logging out logs to save their ship, while denying their opponent(s) a kill. Is this the core of the problem? Is the problem then, that it is unethical to log off in order to save your ship?
-What, then, about a roaming gang who is trapped in a particular constellation by gate camps on choke point systems? Would it be ethical for the gang to log out for the rest of the day to avoid being caught by a potential enemy gang which may be a few or several jumps away from them (or not exist at all)?
-What about if you are ratting alone in a system when you are notified of an incoming roaming gang, headed your way. There is no station or POS that you could seek shelter in, and let's say for some odd reason you forgot/didn't want to fit a cloak.
-What if your carebear corp gets wardecced, and you log out a few minutes before the dec goes active?
In all of these cases, the logger(s) log out to achieve safety, while their opponents are denied a (potential) kill. You can come up with even more convoluted situations. But anyways, where is the line for you? Are all of these situations unethical? Are all of them ethical? Or are some ethical and some unethical? What are your thoughts?
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DubanFP
Caldari
Kylia Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
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"Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed. |
supr3m3justic3
Caldari
Hakata Group
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:36:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
this.
__________________________________________________
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/10/2008 17:38:33
You mail the game masters and ask. If they say its ok, its ok.
While waiting for a reply, you spin the ship.
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Originally by: Roguehalo
Can you nano Titans?
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:39:00 -
[5]
It is unethical to log out when you deprive me of a kill.
It is ethical to log out when I can save my ass with it.
Ethics are arbitrary and malleable.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:39:00 -
[6]
I think the question is the immediacy of the issue you're trying to avoid.
The basic rule of thumb, I would feel, is if you're on-grid with the enemy you wish to avoid. If you jumped into a gatecamp and log to save your ship, lame. If you escape a gatecamp, get through another gate and spend 15 minutes cloaked to avoid them chasing you and get safed up, no trouble.
Essentially, it comes down to the RP aspect of it (ironically, as the people who complain most about logoffski are usually vehemently anti-RP): It's immersion-breaking for a ship to simply vanish from right in front of you or warp off despite having ewar on it.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Catharacta
Caldari
Carebear Cavalry
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:40:00 -
[7]
Whenever you damn well please.
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Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:43:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dmian on 07/10/2008 17:43:52
Originally by: DubanFP
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
This. Couldn't have said that better myself. As long as you're not using an exploit, use what the game mechanics give you.
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:55:00 -
[9]
Bah, its a game. If you catch me its all good. If you log out when I have you then w/e, I guess you have your reasons to do it.
I view PVP (The guys that go out looking for a fight) loggoffskis' the same as I see the guys crowing about PVP prowess while they fit WCS's in the lows.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:57:00 -
[10]
I don't think you're really asking an 'ethical' question; perhaps a better way to ask it is "When in logging out consistent with fair play?"
My answer would generally be this: if you are logging out to avoid a ship loss that you couldn't reasonably avoid by continuing to play, then you are using the logout mechanics to gain an unfair advantage.
* So, for example, if I'm scouting enemy systems in my covops, and realize that it's time to quit for the night, and I jump to a nice, quiet system to logout, then this is 'fair' even if I'm deep in hostile territory, because I would have had no problem staying safe if I'd been logged in with my cloak active.
* If I was a mining carebear and logged out in station just before a wardec went active, this, too, would be 'fair', because I could have just as easily been perfectly safe logged in, analyzing all of the interesting features of the station interior.
* Logging out upon discovering a gate camp the hard way clearly doesn't meet my definition of 'fair play'.
* Your example of logging out in response to reports that a hostile mob is inbound is likewise abusing this 'fair play' definition, but the same ship logging out in the same system when no hostiles threatened would be fine.
* Here's a close call example: if I've been dodging from safe spot to safe spot for an hour in my interceptor, with hostiles hot on my tail, I think it would be fair to log out if I thought I could survive doing so. Why? Because I have a reasonable expectation that if I'd simply continued as I had been, they wouldn't have caught me. Note that the time isn't important, it's the reasonable expectation of safety by using a method other than logging off.
My opinion, your mileage may vary.
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Becq Starforged
Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
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Doctor Remulak
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:00:00 -
[11]
It's just a game, but some people are so terrified of being on the wrong end of a kill mail that they simply must log out. For me, if I'm playing Eve, I'm not logging out till I'm done playing. When I'm done, I log out. Otherwise I play the game. If that means getting blown up, so be it.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:07:00 -
[12]
Pretty simple: when logging out makes no difference to whether or not you're in danger.
I've logged after escaping enemies and successfully continued to evade them for 15 minutes and they have no immediate prospect of finding me (eg: cloaked up at a safespot). At this point, staying logged in just wastes my time and theirs. Loggoffski in a "being shot at situation" in order to withdraw from combat is flat out lame, and is, if we're honest with ourselves, an abuse of game mechanics. In short: cheating.
Bluntly, I'd rather lose my internet pixels than be someone who's so damb sad that they have to cheat at a computer game. I don't cheat, I don't associate with cheaters.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:09:00 -
[13]
If it has no impact on a tactical situation, then it's ok.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Banana Torres
Look Ma I did a Test
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:12:00 -
[14]
I don't normally log out except when I am finished doing what I am doing.
The only exception to this is if I know it will **** off some hostile player.
Or sometimes I don't log out and just sit in the station and go and watch the girlies in Strictly Come Dancing. Then play undocking games for a while. And then generally play mind games until I get bored. By which time the hostile is usually begging me to log out.
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:16:00 -
[15]
Remembering RL is > eve. So whenever and in whatever situation that RL demands you stop playing right now...
That's about it for me. If I'm agressed, actively being hunted, or feel that by logout I would be robbing someone of a fair kill.. I would stick around until I either got away, I killed them or I got killed. Perhaps the key is.. don't fly something you can't afford to lose then you won't feel pressured into logging?
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There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:25:00 -
[16]
It's funny to talk about "ethics" and "fair play" in a game that encourages scams and spying and blowing the implants out of people's clones... 
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dmian
It's funny to talk about "ethics" and "fair play" in a game that encourages scams and spying and blowing the implants out of people's clones...
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
Corp and Personal killboard
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MissileBella
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:38:00 -
[18]
I love logoffski!
It ****es you pirates off real good.
Delicious tears as you cry from your 10 man gatecamp...
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
This.
Given the nature of eve, everything you do is ethically wrong to someone.
If you PvP, someone will think you're being unethical by bringing more/better ships to a fight. If you pirate, the carebears who die/get ransommed will think you're being unethical. If you're a carebear your zealous avoidance of pvp will seem unethical to the pvpers.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:43:00 -
[20]
when is it ethical to logoff?
when it might save my ship. hth.
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Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
I'm not sure there's an agreed moral code of conduct in Eve. In fact, the ethic of actions in Eve varies depending on who's the perpetrator and who's the victim of those actions. Curioulsy, griefers often put themselves in the "right" side of ethics
The only rules are those dictated by CCP, and as long as you don't abuse those rules, anything you do in Eve is OK.
Every player is free to act as his/her own morale dictates as long as they comply with CCP's rules. And that's what mostly happens, given the selfish nature of most of us.
So, again, any game mechanic that's not an exploit or goes agains CCP's rules is a valid one.
(I'm not talking specifically about logoffski, since I'm not in favor or against it, and I've never logged-off myself.)
----
Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Domania
Crete Carrier Corp.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:50:00 -
[22]
Quote:
ethical
It's a game.... stop ...
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:54:00 -
[23]
I don't logoffski, but i can't grudge those that do.
CCP has made it abundantly clear that you can log off whenever you want, and if it means you escape an expensive loss then so be it. It's their game and their rules, and if they approve of stupid mechanics that give a free get out of jail card to anyone with both ctrl and q buttons on their keyboard then that's up to them.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jimer Lins on 07/10/2008 18:55:01
Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Jimer Lins
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
I'm not sure there's an agreed moral code of conduct in Eve. In fact, the ethic of actions in Eve varies depending on who's the perpetrator and who's the victim of those actions. Curioulsy, griefers often put themselves in the "right" side of ethics
The only rules are those dictated by CCP, and as long as you don't abuse those rules, anything you do in Eve is OK.
Every player is free to act as his/her own morale dictates as long as they comply with CCP's rules. And that's what mostly happens, given the selfish nature of most of us.
So, again, any game mechanic that's not an exploit or goes agains CCP's rules is a valid one.
(I'm not talking specifically about logoffski, since I'm not in favor or against it, and I've never logged-off myself.)
Ethics are not morals. I agree with you that everyone has a slightly different set, even within the context of EVE. However, scorn and derision are often heaped upon those who use questionable tactics such as logging off in a fight (and you can garner from my use of the words "questionable tactics" where I stand).
While there may be many different interpretations of acceptable behavior in EVE, there is a common set of ethical codes that many, if not most, adhere to. Morals are another question entirely. 
I've seen a lot of different aspects of EVE, on both sides of the "carebear/griefer" coin, and I think that most would agree that "logoffski" is pretty unethical. Kind of moot if a violation of an ethical code comes with no real consequences, though.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:09:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Main Entry: eth+ic
Pronunciation: \ˈe-thik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ēthikē, from ēthikos
Date: 14th century
1plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> ùoften used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics><Christian ethics> bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
Why are we bringing this into a video game? If the dude ctrl-q's then that is her/his/it's bag. And they are just lame because they can't deal with a loss or the fact they lost.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Farrqua
Quote:
Main Entry: eth+ic
Pronunciation: \ˈe-thik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ēthikē, from ēthikos
Date: 14th century
1plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> ùoften used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics><Christian ethics> bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
Why are we bringing this into a video game? If the dude ctrl-q's then that is her/his/it's bag. And they are just lame because they can't deal with a loss or the fact they lost.
Ethics aren't simply something that applies to "real life". The term is applicable to the set of moral principles we use when playing the game- hence the irritation when someone violates those principles, by for example, logging off in a fight to avoid a loss. Even calling them "lame" just reveals that there is a belief they have violated some kind of ethical principle.
Just because the word "ethics" is used doesn't mean it's the same set of ethics you use in real life. It's just how we approach the game and the rules we all kind of coalesce on- this is OK, this is lame, etc.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:31:00 -
[27]
Why are we trying to bring Ethics into this game?
Damn you CCP! Why did you have to make such a good game?? Yes you drew me back AGAIN! Oh well wheres the Omber? |
Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Ethics are not morals. I agree with you that everyone has a slightly different set, even within the context of EVE. However, scorn and derision are often heaped upon those who use questionable tactics such as logging off in a fight (and you can garner from my use of the words "questionable tactics" where I stand).
While there may be many different interpretations of acceptable behavior in EVE, there is a common set of ethical codes that many, if not most, adhere to. Morals are another question entirely.
I've seen a lot of different aspects of EVE, on both sides of the "carebear/griefer" coin, and I think that most would agree that "logoffski" is pretty unethical. Kind of moot if a violation of an ethical code comes with no real consequences, though.
I failed at noting that I was talking about ethics in Eve and not logoffski.
But talking about it, it's true that there is some consensus about a series of practices that are considered not ethical by a reasonable group of players (namely logoffski and suicide ganking.) I think the problem with logoffski, in contrast with suicide ganking, it's that you can't establish with a 100% of certainty that a logoff is intentional or a real problem with the connection.
I mean, there's the possibility that your ADSL drops sync when you're about to get popped, or that when you face a gate camp the lights in your house go off. And so, CCP can't punish a player when he/she logs-off simply because CCP can't prove that the log-off was intentional, no matter how obvious it looks.
Albeit, they can keep a record of players who suffer from logoffski and the situation when the logoffski occurs, to try to identify possible abuses 
This is the main problem with logoffski, and not exactly that it is "unethical" (imho)
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Plim
Gallente
Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:48:00 -
[29]
It's not sportsman like. Neither is manipulating your opponents pieces in a game of chess while they are out of the room, or intentionally injuring someone in a game of football.
I'd say that one's behavior in a game could be described as an ethical issue, your actions effect a community who have an agreed upon code of conduct. Ethics regard human action and consequence.
If you ask the majority of people who pvp in EVE, they will condemn the action of logging out in combat. You could therefore say that it is unethical.
This is with accepting a pretty broad definition of ethics however, normally it is reserved for things of greater consequence.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Ethics are not morals. I agree with you that everyone has a slightly different set, even within the context of EVE. However, scorn and derision are often heaped upon those who use questionable tactics such as logging off in a fight (and you can garner from my use of the words "questionable tactics" where I stand).
While there may be many different interpretations of acceptable behavior in EVE, there is a common set of ethical codes that many, if not most, adhere to. Morals are another question entirely.
I've seen a lot of different aspects of EVE, on both sides of the "carebear/griefer" coin, and I think that most would agree that "logoffski" is pretty unethical. Kind of moot if a violation of an ethical code comes with no real consequences, though.
I failed at noting that I was talking about ethics in Eve and not logoffski.
But talking about it, it's true that there is some consensus about a series of practices that are considered not ethical by a reasonable group of players (namely logoffski and suicide ganking.) I think the problem with logoffski, in contrast with suicide ganking, it's that you can't establish with a 100% of certainty that a logoff is intentional or a real problem with the connection.
I mean, there's the possibility that your ADSL drops sync when you're about to get popped, or that when you face a gate camp the lights in your house go off. And so, CCP can't punish a player when he/she logs-off simply because CCP can't prove that the log-off was intentional, no matter how obvious it looks.
Albeit, they can keep a record of players who suffer from logoffski and the situation when the logoffski occurs, to try to identify possible abuses
This is the main problem with logoffski, and not exactly that it is "unethical" (imho)
Well, I don't advocate punishing people for logoffski; as you point out, there's really no way to be certain it was intentional or not. Can't really put punitive measures for ethics violations in a game anyway.
I do advocate changing the game mechanics to make it harder to do some of the lamer things people do, like repeatedly logging on and off to hop across a system without being able to be stopped. A 5-minute timer after you login in which your ship will remain in space even if you disconnect seems appropriate, after which the game mechanics work as they do. That way you could still disconnect/log off, but you couldn't repeat it, meaning you'd suffer the consequences if you reconnected and your friends are waiting for you.
Corp and Personal killboard
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