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When is it ethical to log out?

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Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.07 20:02:00 - [31] 1. Logging out is IMHO not really a part of the game. It's a means of entering and exiting the game. Thus, as far as I see it, logging in and out of a game to gain an in-game tactical advantage is lame (some people do it, and pfeh. It's their choice since it's technically within the game rules. But I reserve and will exercise my right to hold the opinion that some things are lame, and the people who do it are lame as well). 2. Nobody has EVER caught me when I've been actively trying to avoid them in a system (by creating safespots and then subsequently jumping from safespots, creating new safespots on the go etc etc). Even in a battleship. Even when they've been probing. Thus my conclusion is: It's lame to log out when you have an aggression timer or when you're on the same grid as "neutral" or hostile ships. It's not against the game ethics (as it's not against the rules), but it's definitely against what I view as good player ethics. The mere action of logging in&out should not net me a material advantage in terms of ISK/ships/modules/goods. Otherwise I'm saving myself (and other players) the tedium of a stalemate. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
MarleWH Infortunatus Eventus Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.10.07 20:20:00 - [32] Try going on like a 2 hour roam and not finding anything, and then you hear you have a Raven jumping into you, finally something to justify all that wasted time. You see local go up one... and then down one. You tackle the raven, and then he warps out and leaves scan. Yah I'm totally fine with that.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.07 20:42:00 - [33] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/10/2008 20:45:37 I find it ethical to log when youre not in a combat or potential combat situation. Wether combat is fair or wanted doesn't come into it in my book. Only exception: relogging on a blackscreen in wtflag conditions, knowing you're probably being shot at the time or will be in the near future if you dont get some control over your client. That's it, **** those that cant take a loss on the chin. edit: its not really an ethics thing actually. It's CCP's task to either change the mechanics to supress it or not. theyve always taken the easy way out of this one, altho potential ways of at least severely reducing the issue without unwanted hindrance to 'normal' disconnects do exist. Ethics are decided by ccp in Eve, when it comes to forcing them upon us through mechanics. If a player wants to enforce ethics, there's always the option to make the logger's gameplay a living hell. [center] Old blog
Evileene Evil Conservative Industries	Posted - 2008.10.07 20:58:00 - [34] It's ethical to log out any time you damn well please. However, I don't recommend doing it when it will just get your ship killed without a fight :) Don't ever buy the line that anyone else should have any say in how you play the game or what you do when confronted with gank, etc other than yourself. I've gotten smack before from would be pirates becuase I had the audacity to warp off, cloak, and ultimately evade their trap. Some of these people think that engagements should consist of "AHA, CAUGHT YA!" and you sitting there meekly allowing them to kill and loot you. Not so. Even if I am going to likely die, my goal is to make it as hard for them as possible and take one of them with me. --- Support the economy, cut down a tree and set it on fire.
Feilamya Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:00:00 - [35] eth...what?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:19:00 - [36] I never log off to in hopes that my ship will survive an attack. If I've jumped myself into a situation where things look dire, then it sucks to be me. People need to realize that one way or another, someone has to frown a bit in order for the other guy to have a smile. I've had plenty of smiles, so other people deserve that too. I will log off after 30 minutes if I'm trapped in a system by someone defending their space. 30 minutes is plenty of time to come get me, and I typically only get in these situations at the end of my game night. If I planned to be on much longer, then I'll try and work my way out of the situation. I have stayed in a system as long as two hours working arrangements to be let go, etc. The way I see it is that I ultimately hold the cards if I'm just stuck. It's in their best interest to work a ransom out and let me go rather than play cat and mouse until I get to a point where there's no hope and I've exhausted all avenues. I've never logged off in the middle of combat to try and escape. I have ctl-q'd myself out because the client no longer responds, but I try and log back in finish out the combat. I've found that when this happens, there's usually nothing that I can do to actually get back into a "connected" state of combat, but rather I just appear in a station after a few attempts.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:20:00 - [37] Originally by: DubanFP Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: DubanFP Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks. Not really. Even if this _is_ EVE, and it's 'ok' to play in an unsporting fashion, that doesn't change the fact that it can be unethical/unsporting to do a certain thing. You won't get banned for pulling a logoffski on me, but my opinion of you will be lowered for doing so. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:32:00 - [39] Reason I don't is: I'd rather lose a ship than get a rep for lame/meta/cheap behavior. Rep actually means something in this game. Just ask Veronne or Chribba or any number of other famous/infamous folks. Suicideing and whatnot though? Hell yeah, if I think it will annoy the jackass that's got me bent over.
Feilamya Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:50:00 - [40] Rep is what you get for being a forum ***. At least in these days this is a fact. If you keep your head low, nobody in this game will ever notice you, regardless of what you do. And if you don't, people still don't give a ** about what you do ingame.

Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.07 22:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Soporo Reason I don't is: I'd rather lose a ship than get a rep for lame/meta/cheap behavior. Rep actually means something in this game. Just ask Veronne or Chribba or any number of other famous/infamous folks. Suicideing and whatnot though? Hell yeah, if I think it will annoy the jackass that's got me bent over. Exactly. Verone is not exactly known for being the NICEST guy in the game (although I gather he's actually a good guy), given that he and his corp do lots of nasty things to your ships. But he's known for being ethical within the framework of the game. Same with Chribba, for different reasons. Corp and Personal killboard
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.07 22:54:00 - [42] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21 Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks. Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes. this x2 -
Jeneroux	Posted - 2008.10.08 00:11:00 - [43] When your wife reaches around you and slips her 100 dollar inch long nails into your pants and says in your ear.. "don't make me call you again *******" it's ethical to log immediately.
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.08 00:18:00 - [44] Edited by: Skraeling Shortbus on 08/10/2008 00:19:06 Ethical eh... it's a game. I like who said 'fairplay', that makes much more sense. Unless it's a game bug that would prevent you surviving otherwise, I consider it lame. I actually logged to save my pod once due to a game bug. I was stuck on the transition timer graphic to my pod and when I actually got to my pod the session change timer never went away and I couldnt initiate warp at all by either the 'selected item' window or clicking in space. It just friggin wouldn't let me. So I logged rather than losing my pod to some dipshit coding bug. Having said that, i've only had to do that once. If I cant get away using means the game provides me I don't do it.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.08 00:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Ethical eh... it's a game. I like who said 'fairplay', that makes much more sense. "Fair play" is just another word for ethics. That said, since it's a game you have to view ethics from within the context of the game. If you then choose to call it "fair play", "ethics" or "good sportsmanship" is a matter of taste, but it's still the same thing. Short BBC article on "Fair play" ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.08 00:37:00 - [46] Originally by: DubanFP This is EVE. No, THIS IS SPARTA! ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.08 00:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: DubanFP This is EVE. No, THIS IS SPARTA! You're going to kick a Goon/BoB diplomat into the EVE wormhole while you're at it? ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Kransthow THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.10.08 01:15:00 - [48] How bout this, ships never disappear from space when they log out but they simply become unscannable after normally 1 minute or 15 if they have agression. No more loggoffski No more crap
wide 55378008	Posted - 2008.10.08 01:29:00 - [49] During sex
Blastil	Posted - 2008.10.08 04:47:00 - [50] Logofski, while a pain in the ass, and the cowards way out of a clean, honest death, should be a perfectly viable tactic for a few reasons- 1) Ships do not warp out any faster or slower because of log off. Logging off is a good way to let the game warp you rather than the AP. Also, it a way to save your pod, which I also think of as a perfectly smart thing to do. 2) If you really REALLY want to waste your money in EVE spending time NOT Playing, then feel free to log off before a wardec goes live. Your opponent is losing fake ISK, your losing real money (unless your wardec is being payed for by bought isk ) 3) Every time you logofski, your balls shrink another size, and you get another inch fatter. I like to imagine the bastards eventually having their pelvis consume their privates, and they will never again get them back. THAT'S what happens when you Do Logofski. You have been warned.

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.08 05:08:00 - [51] When I have no control of my ship or my interface is otherwise way messed up hindering me from mounting anything resembling a good defense, then again it's hard for anyone but me to see when that has occurred. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.10.08 05:43:00 - [52] When you damn well please Its an internet space ship game, use the Fking rules to your advantage. Drop this idea of honor and all that other crap, just play the game as you wish. If you have an idea of honor that suits you, great. But that idea is for you and the people who wish to follow you. Not me Originally by:** Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.10.08 05:55:00 - [53] Originally by: James Lyrus Not really. Even if this _is_ EVE, and it's 'ok' to play in an unsporting fashion, that doesn't change the fact that it can be unethical/unsporting to do a certain thing. You won't get banned for pulling a logoffski on me, but my opinion of you will be lowered for doing so. Funny, I get my worth from the work I do in my community helping others, not from some internet game I play to pass time. As for unsportsmanlike, do you play soccer or hockey? In soccer players slide tackle and some think its unsportsmanlike but if it meets the objective then its all fair game. In hockey, well I just played to hit people thats a bad example. Originally by: Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.08 06:15:00 - [54] Originally by: Abrazzar It is unethical to log out when you deprive me of a kill. It is ethical to log out when I can save my ass with it. Ethics are arbitrary and malleable. This. There is of course a simple solution: log in space and your ship stays in game for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro. Make this change, and my covops alt and I will encourage you to log out.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.10.08 08:51:00 - [55] Originally by: Merin Ryskin This. There is of course a simple solution: log in space and your ship stays in game for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro. Make this change, and my covops alt and I will encourage you to log out. If CCP could only extend the 15 minutes rule in such a way that also aggro counts which you receive after logging off within the shorter (30 sec?) timeframe, I would be fully satisfied. - And eliminate the backdoor tactics that I won't describe any further - most of you will know what I mean... If you are too stupid to use a scout and jump into an enemy fleet, you should only stand a chance by staying online (try burnin back to the gate - it works). Logging off should be a firm guarantee for your death!
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.10.08 09:06:00 - [56] Log out whenever the hell you want, it's a game that you pay to play. ----------
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2008.10.08 09:12:00 - [57] There is no 'ethical' in Eve, at least in a broader sense. Hobbes would love Eve.
PeHD0M	Posted - 2008.10.08 09:51:00 - [58] From the RP point of view agression timer is non existant, because nothing can stop my crew to warp my ship away (offcorce if it isn't actively warp scrambled or inside dictor bubble).
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.08 10:37:00 - [59] Originally by: Jimer Lins Originally by: Dmian It's funny to talk about "ethics" and "fair play" in a game that encourages scams and spying and blowing the implants out of people's clones... "Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means. EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE. So what you're saying is that one version of metagaming is ok, but the other isn't? What you're talking about is morals and honour, not ethics, but I could be mistaken.. english is not my first language (however the expression = similar, so should be it). Personally I think I've only logged out to obviously save a ship once, which was mostly due to frustration and me being a nub (I'm still a nub, less of one tho). So no, I don't do it. Would I get **ed if someone else did? No. I'm not **ed over spies, scammer, pirates or whatever. In EVE you do whatever the EULA allows you to do, simply put. Whatever your morals and honour tells you to do, can't be put upon others, they have their own choices. You can't tell others how to play the game, especially not in this game. Age-old question tbh, in an old fantasy mmo I played, half the playerbase frowned on players that used potions in pvp. The other half used every means necessary to win. It's not specific for EVE.
Dracorimus Caldari Edge Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.08 10:39:00 - [60] I log off when I want, I pay for my account not you. Simple. - Die faster damnit!



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