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Taedrin
Gallente
Celestial Ascension
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:32:00 -
[1]
Where is the line that defines when YOU think it's ethical to log out?
It is obvious that different people have different opinions about where this line is.
-For example, logging out during combat seems to strike the wrong chord with the PvP community, but has been defended by some of the carebear community (this doesn't work anymore, though, right?)
-The pirate community seems to frown upon logging out before combat but after jumping into a gate camp.
These examples are pretty clear cut. The player logging out logs to save their ship, while denying their opponent(s) a kill. Is this the core of the problem? Is the problem then, that it is unethical to log off in order to save your ship?
-What, then, about a roaming gang who is trapped in a particular constellation by gate camps on choke point systems? Would it be ethical for the gang to log out for the rest of the day to avoid being caught by a potential enemy gang which may be a few or several jumps away from them (or not exist at all)?
-What about if you are ratting alone in a system when you are notified of an incoming roaming gang, headed your way. There is no station or POS that you could seek shelter in, and let's say for some odd reason you forgot/didn't want to fit a cloak.
-What if your carebear corp gets wardecced, and you log out a few minutes before the dec goes active?
In all of these cases, the logger(s) log out to achieve safety, while their opponents are denied a (potential) kill. You can come up with even more convoluted situations. But anyways, where is the line for you? Are all of these situations unethical? Are all of them ethical? Or are some ethical and some unethical? What are your thoughts?
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DubanFP
Caldari
Kylia Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
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"Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed. |
supr3m3justic3
Caldari
Hakata Group
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:36:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
this.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/10/2008 17:38:33
You mail the game masters and ask. If they say its ok, its ok.
While waiting for a reply, you spin the ship.
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Originally by: Roguehalo
Can you nano Titans?
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:39:00 -
[5]
It is unethical to log out when you deprive me of a kill.
It is ethical to log out when I can save my ass with it.
Ethics are arbitrary and malleable.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:39:00 -
[6]
I think the question is the immediacy of the issue you're trying to avoid.
The basic rule of thumb, I would feel, is if you're on-grid with the enemy you wish to avoid. If you jumped into a gatecamp and log to save your ship, lame. If you escape a gatecamp, get through another gate and spend 15 minutes cloaked to avoid them chasing you and get safed up, no trouble.
Essentially, it comes down to the RP aspect of it (ironically, as the people who complain most about logoffski are usually vehemently anti-RP): It's immersion-breaking for a ship to simply vanish from right in front of you or warp off despite having ewar on it.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Catharacta
Caldari
Carebear Cavalry
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:40:00 -
[7]
Whenever you damn well please.
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Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:43:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dmian on 07/10/2008 17:43:52
Originally by: DubanFP
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
This. Couldn't have said that better myself. As long as you're not using an exploit, use what the game mechanics give you.
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:55:00 -
[9]
Bah, its a game. If you catch me its all good. If you log out when I have you then w/e, I guess you have your reasons to do it.
I view PVP (The guys that go out looking for a fight) loggoffskis' the same as I see the guys crowing about PVP prowess while they fit WCS's in the lows.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:57:00 -
[10]
I don't think you're really asking an 'ethical' question; perhaps a better way to ask it is "When in logging out consistent with fair play?"
My answer would generally be this: if you are logging out to avoid a ship loss that you couldn't reasonably avoid by continuing to play, then you are using the logout mechanics to gain an unfair advantage.
* So, for example, if I'm scouting enemy systems in my covops, and realize that it's time to quit for the night, and I jump to a nice, quiet system to logout, then this is 'fair' even if I'm deep in hostile territory, because I would have had no problem staying safe if I'd been logged in with my cloak active.
* If I was a mining carebear and logged out in station just before a wardec went active, this, too, would be 'fair', because I could have just as easily been perfectly safe logged in, analyzing all of the interesting features of the station interior.
* Logging out upon discovering a gate camp the hard way clearly doesn't meet my definition of 'fair play'.
* Your example of logging out in response to reports that a hostile mob is inbound is likewise abusing this 'fair play' definition, but the same ship logging out in the same system when no hostiles threatened would be fine.
* Here's a close call example: if I've been dodging from safe spot to safe spot for an hour in my interceptor, with hostiles hot on my tail, I think it would be fair to log out if I thought I could survive doing so. Why? Because I have a reasonable expectation that if I'd simply continued as I had been, they wouldn't have caught me. Note that the time isn't important, it's the reasonable expectation of safety by using a method other than logging off.
My opinion, your mileage may vary.
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Becq Starforged
Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
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Doctor Remulak
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:00:00 -
[11]
It's just a game, but some people are so terrified of being on the wrong end of a kill mail that they simply must log out. For me, if I'm playing Eve, I'm not logging out till I'm done playing. When I'm done, I log out. Otherwise I play the game. If that means getting blown up, so be it.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:07:00 -
[12]
Pretty simple: when logging out makes no difference to whether or not you're in danger.
I've logged after escaping enemies and successfully continued to evade them for 15 minutes and they have no immediate prospect of finding me (eg: cloaked up at a safespot). At this point, staying logged in just wastes my time and theirs. Loggoffski in a "being shot at situation" in order to withdraw from combat is flat out lame, and is, if we're honest with ourselves, an abuse of game mechanics. In short: cheating.
Bluntly, I'd rather lose my internet pixels than be someone who's so damb sad that they have to cheat at a computer game. I don't cheat, I don't associate with cheaters.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:09:00 -
[13]
If it has no impact on a tactical situation, then it's ok.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Banana Torres
Look Ma I did a Test
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:12:00 -
[14]
I don't normally log out except when I am finished doing what I am doing.
The only exception to this is if I know it will **** off some hostile player.
Or sometimes I don't log out and just sit in the station and go and watch the girlies in Strictly Come Dancing. Then play undocking games for a while. And then generally play mind games until I get bored. By which time the hostile is usually begging me to log out.
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:16:00 -
[15]
Remembering RL is > eve. So whenever and in whatever situation that RL demands you stop playing right now...
That's about it for me. If I'm agressed, actively being hunted, or feel that by logout I would be robbing someone of a fair kill.. I would stick around until I either got away, I killed them or I got killed. Perhaps the key is.. don't fly something you can't afford to lose then you won't feel pressured into logging?
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There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:25:00 -
[16]
It's funny to talk about "ethics" and "fair play" in a game that encourages scams and spying and blowing the implants out of people's clones... 
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dmian
It's funny to talk about "ethics" and "fair play" in a game that encourages scams and spying and blowing the implants out of people's clones...
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
Corp and Personal killboard
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MissileBella
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:38:00 -
[18]
I love logoffski!
It ****es you pirates off real good.
Delicious tears as you cry from your 10 man gatecamp...
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
This.
Given the nature of eve, everything you do is ethically wrong to someone.
If you PvP, someone will think you're being unethical by bringing more/better ships to a fight. If you pirate, the carebears who die/get ransommed will think you're being unethical. If you're a carebear your zealous avoidance of pvp will seem unethical to the pvpers.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:43:00 -
[20]
when is it ethical to logoff?
when it might save my ship. hth.
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Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
I'm not sure there's an agreed moral code of conduct in Eve. In fact, the ethic of actions in Eve varies depending on who's the perpetrator and who's the victim of those actions. Curioulsy, griefers often put themselves in the "right" side of ethics
The only rules are those dictated by CCP, and as long as you don't abuse those rules, anything you do in Eve is OK.
Every player is free to act as his/her own morale dictates as long as they comply with CCP's rules. And that's what mostly happens, given the selfish nature of most of us.
So, again, any game mechanic that's not an exploit or goes agains CCP's rules is a valid one.
(I'm not talking specifically about logoffski, since I'm not in favor or against it, and I've never logged-off myself.)
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Domania
Crete Carrier Corp.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:50:00 -
[22]
Quote:
ethical
It's a game.... stop ...
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:54:00 -
[23]
I don't logoffski, but i can't grudge those that do.
CCP has made it abundantly clear that you can log off whenever you want, and if it means you escape an expensive loss then so be it. It's their game and their rules, and if they approve of stupid mechanics that give a free get out of jail card to anyone with both ctrl and q buttons on their keyboard then that's up to them.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jimer Lins on 07/10/2008 18:55:01
Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Jimer Lins
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
I'm not sure there's an agreed moral code of conduct in Eve. In fact, the ethic of actions in Eve varies depending on who's the perpetrator and who's the victim of those actions. Curioulsy, griefers often put themselves in the "right" side of ethics
The only rules are those dictated by CCP, and as long as you don't abuse those rules, anything you do in Eve is OK.
Every player is free to act as his/her own morale dictates as long as they comply with CCP's rules. And that's what mostly happens, given the selfish nature of most of us.
So, again, any game mechanic that's not an exploit or goes agains CCP's rules is a valid one.
(I'm not talking specifically about logoffski, since I'm not in favor or against it, and I've never logged-off myself.)
Ethics are not morals. I agree with you that everyone has a slightly different set, even within the context of EVE. However, scorn and derision are often heaped upon those who use questionable tactics such as logging off in a fight (and you can garner from my use of the words "questionable tactics" where I stand).
While there may be many different interpretations of acceptable behavior in EVE, there is a common set of ethical codes that many, if not most, adhere to. Morals are another question entirely. 
I've seen a lot of different aspects of EVE, on both sides of the "carebear/griefer" coin, and I think that most would agree that "logoffski" is pretty unethical. Kind of moot if a violation of an ethical code comes with no real consequences, though.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:09:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Main Entry: eth+ic
Pronunciation: \ˈe-thik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ēthikē, from ēthikos
Date: 14th century
1plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> ùoften used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics><Christian ethics> bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
Why are we bringing this into a video game? If the dude ctrl-q's then that is her/his/it's bag. And they are just lame because they can't deal with a loss or the fact they lost.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Farrqua
Quote:
Main Entry: eth+ic
Pronunciation: \ˈe-thik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ēthikē, from ēthikos
Date: 14th century
1plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> ùoften used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics><Christian ethics> bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
Why are we bringing this into a video game? If the dude ctrl-q's then that is her/his/it's bag. And they are just lame because they can't deal with a loss or the fact they lost.
Ethics aren't simply something that applies to "real life". The term is applicable to the set of moral principles we use when playing the game- hence the irritation when someone violates those principles, by for example, logging off in a fight to avoid a loss. Even calling them "lame" just reveals that there is a belief they have violated some kind of ethical principle.
Just because the word "ethics" is used doesn't mean it's the same set of ethics you use in real life. It's just how we approach the game and the rules we all kind of coalesce on- this is OK, this is lame, etc.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:31:00 -
[27]
Why are we trying to bring Ethics into this game?
Damn you CCP! Why did you have to make such a good game?? Yes you drew me back AGAIN! Oh well wheres the Omber? |
Dmian
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Ethics are not morals. I agree with you that everyone has a slightly different set, even within the context of EVE. However, scorn and derision are often heaped upon those who use questionable tactics such as logging off in a fight (and you can garner from my use of the words "questionable tactics" where I stand).
While there may be many different interpretations of acceptable behavior in EVE, there is a common set of ethical codes that many, if not most, adhere to. Morals are another question entirely.
I've seen a lot of different aspects of EVE, on both sides of the "carebear/griefer" coin, and I think that most would agree that "logoffski" is pretty unethical. Kind of moot if a violation of an ethical code comes with no real consequences, though.
I failed at noting that I was talking about ethics in Eve and not logoffski.
But talking about it, it's true that there is some consensus about a series of practices that are considered not ethical by a reasonable group of players (namely logoffski and suicide ganking.) I think the problem with logoffski, in contrast with suicide ganking, it's that you can't establish with a 100% of certainty that a logoff is intentional or a real problem with the connection.
I mean, there's the possibility that your ADSL drops sync when you're about to get popped, or that when you face a gate camp the lights in your house go off. And so, CCP can't punish a player when he/she logs-off simply because CCP can't prove that the log-off was intentional, no matter how obvious it looks.
Albeit, they can keep a record of players who suffer from logoffski and the situation when the logoffski occurs, to try to identify possible abuses 
This is the main problem with logoffski, and not exactly that it is "unethical" (imho)
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Plim
Gallente
Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:48:00 -
[29]
It's not sportsman like. Neither is manipulating your opponents pieces in a game of chess while they are out of the room, or intentionally injuring someone in a game of football.
I'd say that one's behavior in a game could be described as an ethical issue, your actions effect a community who have an agreed upon code of conduct. Ethics regard human action and consequence.
If you ask the majority of people who pvp in EVE, they will condemn the action of logging out in combat. You could therefore say that it is unethical.
This is with accepting a pretty broad definition of ethics however, normally it is reserved for things of greater consequence.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Ethics are not morals. I agree with you that everyone has a slightly different set, even within the context of EVE. However, scorn and derision are often heaped upon those who use questionable tactics such as logging off in a fight (and you can garner from my use of the words "questionable tactics" where I stand).
While there may be many different interpretations of acceptable behavior in EVE, there is a common set of ethical codes that many, if not most, adhere to. Morals are another question entirely.
I've seen a lot of different aspects of EVE, on both sides of the "carebear/griefer" coin, and I think that most would agree that "logoffski" is pretty unethical. Kind of moot if a violation of an ethical code comes with no real consequences, though.
I failed at noting that I was talking about ethics in Eve and not logoffski.
But talking about it, it's true that there is some consensus about a series of practices that are considered not ethical by a reasonable group of players (namely logoffski and suicide ganking.) I think the problem with logoffski, in contrast with suicide ganking, it's that you can't establish with a 100% of certainty that a logoff is intentional or a real problem with the connection.
I mean, there's the possibility that your ADSL drops sync when you're about to get popped, or that when you face a gate camp the lights in your house go off. And so, CCP can't punish a player when he/she logs-off simply because CCP can't prove that the log-off was intentional, no matter how obvious it looks.
Albeit, they can keep a record of players who suffer from logoffski and the situation when the logoffski occurs, to try to identify possible abuses
This is the main problem with logoffski, and not exactly that it is "unethical" (imho)
Well, I don't advocate punishing people for logoffski; as you point out, there's really no way to be certain it was intentional or not. Can't really put punitive measures for ethics violations in a game anyway.
I do advocate changing the game mechanics to make it harder to do some of the lamer things people do, like repeatedly logging on and off to hop across a system without being able to be stopped. A 5-minute timer after you login in which your ship will remain in space even if you disconnect seems appropriate, after which the game mechanics work as they do. That way you could still disconnect/log off, but you couldn't repeat it, meaning you'd suffer the consequences if you reconnected and your friends are waiting for you.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Shadow Company
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:02:00 -
[31]
1. Logging out is IMHO not really a part of the game. It's a means of entering and exiting the game. Thus, as far as I see it, logging in and out of a game to gain an in-game tactical advantage is lame (some people do it, and pfeh. It's their choice since it's technically within the game rules. But I reserve and will exercise my right to hold the opinion that some things are lame, and the people who do it are lame as well).
2. Nobody has EVER caught me when I've been actively trying to avoid them in a system (by creating safespots and then subsequently jumping from safespots, creating new safespots on the go etc etc). Even in a battleship. Even when they've been probing.
Thus my conclusion is: It's lame to log out when you have an aggression timer or when you're on the same grid as "neutral" or hostile ships. It's not against the game ethics (as it's not against the rules), but it's definitely against what I view as good player ethics. The mere action of logging in&out should not net me a material advantage in terms of ISK/ships/modules/goods.
Otherwise I'm saving myself (and other players) the tedium of a stalemate.
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
MarleWH
Infortunatus Eventus
Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:20:00 -
[32]
Try going on like a 2 hour roam and not finding anything, and then you hear you have a Raven jumping into you, finally something to justify all that wasted time. You see local go up one... and then down one. You tackle the raven, and then he warps out and leaves scan. Yah I'm totally fine with that.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:42:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/10/2008 20:45:37
I find it ethical to log when youre not in a combat or potential combat situation. Wether combat is fair or wanted doesn't come into it in my book.
Only exception: relogging on a blackscreen in wtflag conditions, knowing you're probably being shot at the time or will be in the near future if you dont get some control over your client.
That's it, **** those that cant take a loss on the chin.
edit: its not really an ethics thing actually. It's CCP's task to either change the mechanics to supress it or not. theyve always taken the easy way out of this one, altho potential ways of at least severely reducing the issue without unwanted hindrance to 'normal' disconnects do exist. Ethics are decided by ccp in Eve, when it comes to forcing them upon us through mechanics. If a player wants to enforce ethics, there's always the option to make the logger's gameplay a living hell.
[center]
Old blog |
Evileene
Evil Conservative Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:58:00 -
[34]
It's ethical to log out any time you damn well please.
However, I don't recommend doing it when it will just get your ship killed without a fight :)
Don't ever buy the line that anyone else should have any say in how you play the game or what you do when confronted with gank, etc other than yourself.
I've gotten smack before from would be pirates becuase I had the audacity to warp off, cloak, and ultimately evade their trap. Some of these people think that engagements should consist of "AHA, CAUGHT YA!" and you sitting there meekly allowing them to kill and loot you. Not so. Even if I am going to likely die, my goal is to make it as hard for them as possible and take one of them with me.
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Support the economy, cut down a tree and set it on fire. |
Feilamya
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:00:00 -
[35]
eth...what?
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:19:00 -
[36]
I never log off to in hopes that my ship will survive an attack. If I've jumped myself into a situation where things look dire, then it sucks to be me. People need to realize that one way or another, someone has to frown a bit in order for the other guy to have a smile. I've had plenty of smiles, so other people deserve that too.
I will log off after 30 minutes if I'm trapped in a system by someone defending their space. 30 minutes is plenty of time to come get me, and I typically only get in these situations at the end of my game night. If I planned to be on much longer, then I'll try and work my way out of the situation. I have stayed in a system as long as two hours working arrangements to be let go, etc. The way I see it is that I ultimately hold the cards if I'm just stuck. It's in their best interest to work a ransom out and let me go rather than play cat and mouse until I get to a point where there's no hope and I've exhausted all avenues.
I've never logged off in the middle of combat to try and escape. I have ctl-q'd myself out because the client no longer responds, but I try and log back in finish out the combat. I've found that when this happens, there's usually nothing that I can do to actually get back into a "connected" state of combat, but rather I just appear in a station after a few attempts.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr
Demonic Retribution
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:20:00 -
[37]
Originally by: DubanFP
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk
While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:30:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: DubanFP
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Not really. Even if this _is_ EVE, and it's 'ok' to play in an unsporting fashion, that doesn't change the fact that it can be unethical/unsporting to do a certain thing.
You won't get banned for pulling a logoffski on me, but my opinion of you will be lowered for doing so.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:32:00 -
[39]
Reason I don't is: I'd rather lose a ship than get a rep for lame/meta/cheap behavior. Rep actually means something in this game. Just ask Veronne or Chribba or any number of other famous/infamous folks.
Suicideing and whatnot though? Hell yeah, if I think it will annoy the jackass that's got me bent over.
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Feilamya
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:50:00 -
[40]
Rep is what you get for being a forum *****. At least in these days this is a fact.
If you keep your head low, nobody in this game will ever notice you, regardless of what you do. And if you don't, people still don't give a **** about what you do ingame.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 22:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Soporo
Reason I don't is: I'd rather lose a ship than get a rep for lame/meta/cheap behavior. Rep actually means something in this game. Just ask Veronne or Chribba or any number of other famous/infamous folks.
Suicideing and whatnot though? Hell yeah, if I think it will annoy the jackass that's got me bent over.
Exactly. Verone is not exactly known for being the NICEST guy in the game (although I gather he's actually a good guy), given that he and his corp do lots of nasty things to your ships. But he's known for being ethical within the framework of the game. Same with Chribba, for different reasons.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.07 22:54:00 -
[42]
Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 07/10/2008 17:34:21
Ethical? This is EVE. Do what you want and screw what everyone else thinks.
Now is it always smart to log out? No. Just don't log out when you've been agressed in the last 15 min and there's any doubt in your mind whether your enemies hold scan probes.
this x2
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Jeneroux
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:11:00 -
[43]
When your wife reaches around you and slips her 100 dollar inch long nails into your pants and says in your ear.. "don't make me call you again *******" it's ethical to log immediately.
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:18:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Skraeling Shortbus on 08/10/2008 00:19:06
Ethical eh... it's a game. I like who said 'fairplay', that makes much more sense.
Unless it's a game bug that would prevent you surviving otherwise, I consider it lame. I actually logged to save my pod once due to a game bug. I was stuck on the transition timer graphic to my pod and when I actually got to my pod the session change timer never went away and I couldnt initiate warp at all by either the 'selected item' window or clicking in space. It just friggin wouldn't let me. So I logged rather than losing my pod to some dipshit coding bug.
Having said that, i've only had to do that once. If I cant get away using means the game provides me I don't do it.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Shadow Company
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:30:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
Ethical eh... it's a game. I like who said 'fairplay', that makes much more sense.
"Fair play" is just another word for ethics.
That said, since it's a game you have to view ethics from within the context of the game.
If you then choose to call it "fair play", "ethics" or "good sportsmanship" is a matter of taste, but it's still the same thing.
Short BBC article on "Fair play"
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-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:37:00 -
[46]
Originally by: DubanFP
This is EVE.
No, THIS IS SPARTA!
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[Video] Support Barrage |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Shadow Company
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:45:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: DubanFP
This is EVE.
No, THIS IS SPARTA!
You're going to kick a Goon/BoB diplomat into the EVE wormhole while you're at it?
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Kransthow
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 01:15:00 -
[48]
How bout this, ships never disappear from space when they log out but they simply become unscannable after normally 1 minute or 15 if they have agression.
No more loggoffski
No more crap
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wide
55378008
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Posted - 2008.10.08 01:29:00 -
[49]
During sex |
Blastil
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Posted - 2008.10.08 04:47:00 -
[50]
Logofski, while a pain in the ass, and the cowards way out of a clean, honest death, should be a perfectly viable tactic for a few reasons-
1) Ships do not warp out any faster or slower because of log off. Logging off is a good way to let the game warp you rather than the AP. Also, it a way to save your pod, which I also think of as a perfectly smart thing to do.
2) If you really REALLY want to waste your money in EVE spending time NOT Playing, then feel free to log off before a wardec goes live. Your opponent is losing fake ISK, your losing real money (unless your wardec is being payed for by bought isk  )
3) Every time you logofski, your balls shrink another size, and you get another inch fatter. I like to imagine the bastards eventually having their pelvis consume their privates, and they will never again get them back. THAT'S what happens when you Do Logofski. You have been warned.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.10.08 05:08:00 -
[51]
When I have no control of my ship or my interface is otherwise way messed up hindering me from mounting anything resembling a good defense, then again it's hard for anyone but me to see when that has occurred.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.08 05:43:00 -
[52]
When you damn well please
Its an internet space ship game, use the F**king rules to your advantage. Drop this idea of honor and all that other crap, just play the game as you wish.
If you have an idea of honor that suits you, great. But that idea is for you and the people who wish to follow you.
Not me
Originally by: Shadarle
I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.08 05:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Not really. Even if this _is_ EVE, and it's 'ok' to play in an unsporting fashion, that doesn't change the fact that it can be unethical/unsporting to do a certain thing.
You won't get banned for pulling a logoffski on me, but my opinion of you will be lowered for doing so.
Funny,
I get my worth from the work I do in my community helping others, not from some internet game I play to pass time.
As for unsportsmanlike, do you play soccer or hockey?
In soccer players slide tackle and some think its unsportsmanlike but if it meets the objective then its all fair game.
In hockey, well I just played to hit people thats a bad example.
Originally by: Shadarle
I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.08 06:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Abrazzar
It is unethical to log out when you deprive me of a kill.
It is ethical to log out when I can save my ass with it.
Ethics are arbitrary and malleable.
This.
There is of course a simple solution: log in space and your ship stays in game for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro. Make this change, and my covops alt and I will encourage you to log out.
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.08 08:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
This.
There is of course a simple solution: log in space and your ship stays in game for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro. Make this change, and my covops alt and I will encourage you to log out.
If CCP could only extend the 15 minutes rule in such a way that also aggro counts which you receive after logging off within the shorter (30 sec?) timeframe, I would be fully satisfied. - And eliminate the backdoor tactics that I won't describe any further - most of you will know what I mean...
If you are too stupid to use a scout and jump into an enemy fleet, you should only stand a chance by staying online (try burnin back to the gate - it works). Logging off should be a firm guarantee for your death!
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.10.08 09:06:00 -
[56]
Log out whenever the hell you want, it's a game that you pay to play.
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2008.10.08 09:12:00 -
[57]
There is no 'ethical' in Eve, at least in a broader sense. Hobbes would love Eve.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2008.10.08 09:51:00 -
[58]
From the RP point of view agression timer is non existant, because nothing can stop my crew to warp my ship away (offcorce if it isn't actively warp scrambled or inside dictor bubble).
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.08 10:37:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Originally by: Dmian
It's funny to talk about "ethics" and "fair play" in a game that encourages scams and spying and blowing the implants out of people's clones...
"Ethics" just means a framework of rules that constitute the acceptable norms of behavior. In EVE it's ethical to spy, blow up people's ships, and kill them. It's not ethical to abuse game mechanics to avoid same, when you should have been able to do it via other means.
EVE's ethics aren't the same as the real world's, but there absolutely is a system of ethics for EVE.
So what you're saying is that one version of metagaming is ok, but the other isn't?
What you're talking about is morals and honour, not ethics, but I could be mistaken.. english is not my first language (however the expression = similar, so should be it).
Personally I think I've only logged out to obviously save a ship once, which was mostly due to frustration and me being a nub (I'm still a nub, less of one tho). So no, I don't do it. Would I get ****ed if someone else did? No. I'm not ****ed over spies, scammer, pirates or whatever. In EVE you do whatever the EULA allows you to do, simply put.
Whatever your morals and honour tells you to do, can't be put upon others, they have their own choices. You can't tell others how to play the game, especially not in this game.
Age-old question tbh, in an old fantasy mmo I played, half the playerbase frowned on players that used potions in pvp. The other half used every means necessary to win. It's not specific for EVE.
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Dracorimus
Caldari
Edge Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 10:39:00 -
[60]
I log off when I want, I pay for my account not you.
Simple.
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Die faster damnit! |
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Illwill Bill
Minmatar
Scandinavian Carebears AB
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:13:00 -
[61]
I log off at downtime.
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Ashlee Darksky
Minmatar
Forum Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:58:00 -
[62]
Screw ethics. I'll do whatever is necessary to kick you to the floor, spit on your face and grind you into the dirt.
After all, there are plenty of people waiting to do it to me!
Use any and all resources available to you to beat your opponent - simple! As someone said, logoffski doesn't make your ship get out any faster.. blah blah blah.
---
> I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing
> Bring me the heads of 10 carebears, 5 bottles of BBQ sauce, firewood and a box of matches!
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Riffsajet
Gallente
BattleChimps Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:09:00 -
[63]
everyone does it ,whether to get away from hostile peeps/or use it as a tactic (logoff / logon)in systems to catch unsuspecting pilots.It"s your game and your ships ,so use any and all tactics possible ...
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:28:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2008 15:33:30
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2008 15:29:00
Originally by: Farrqua
Bah, its a game. If you catch me its all good. If you log out when I have you then w/e, I guess you have your reasons to do it.
I view PVP (The guys that go out looking for a fight) loggoffskis' the same as I see the guys crowing about PVP prowess while they fit WCS's in the lows.
You don't avoid fitting WCS because it's 'unethical' to fit them. You avoid fitting WCS because they horribly gimp your combat ability, and if you do it in a gang, you're bringing a gimped ship and getting your gangmates killed that way. Before WCS got nerfed, it was fairly standard to fit it. It's an example of a bad feature CCP fixed.
As for logoffskis, well, until CCP fixes it, why not? Every legal mechanic which gives you a potential advantage and is not petitionable is fair game. You don't get any marks for playing fair. CCP will (hopefully) fix it eventually.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:34:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
You don't avoid fitting WCS because it's 'unethical' to fit them. You avoid fitting WCS because they horribly gimp your combat ability, and if you do it in a gang, you're bringing a gimped ship and getting your gangmates killed that way. Before WCS got nerfed, it was fairly standard to fit it.
fly against the caldari militia sometime. it's like a trip back in time.
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Sean Faust
Gallente
Point of No Return
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:15:00 -
[66]
The real question here isn't about ethical, it's about metagaming. When playing games such as MMOs you're supposed to immerse yourself in it completely and act as though everything were real. Using tactics that exist outside of the realm of in-game physics (such as logoffski, log-on traps, dual boxing multiple accounts with falcon alts, etc) is referred to as "metagaming", which is very very carefully straddling that line that seperates tactics from outright cheating. They fall into the realm of "things that should be considered exploits but aren't."
It's your choice to play or not to play as though these "dirty tricks" are acceptable or not, but regardless of your opinions on the matter, it is not illegal, and you have to accept that you will often be going up against people who may not hold your sense of fair play and this is not a game where "the good guys always win."
For the record, I am opposed to metagaming in all its forms.
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Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:35:00 -
[67]
As has been mentioned...this is just a game. That being said, logging out to avoid the combat-loss of a ship is an indication of your true character. Is your psyche really that fragile that, when you make a mistake, you can't stand to have your ship blown up? If you can't roll with the punches in a game, you are probably not a very good person in RL. This is just my opinion, not directed at anyone in particular.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:42:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
As has been mentioned...this is just a game. That being said, logging out to avoid the combat-loss of a ship is an indication of your true character. Is your psyche really that fragile that, when you make a mistake, you can't stand to have your ship blown up? If you can't roll with the punches in a game, you are probably not a very good person in RL. This is just my opinion, not directed at anyone in particular.
You must be one of those suckers who plays fair and loses, but takes solace in 'taking the loss honourably'. Some people simply play to win.
So they use every dirty trick in the book which works (like the widespread poliferation of Falcon alts, like WCS nerfs used to be, etcetera) until it gets changed. We owe a lot of stuff in EVE (stacking penalities, etc, modern EVE tactics) to people who did exploit every advantage to win.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Daergaar
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:38:00 -
[69]
Well, I recently lost a Drake because I jumped into a gate camp, and my computer froze on jump in. When I came back (I restarted immediately), I was in my pod.
I'm a very new player so I just assumed there was a time period when you log out/disconnect before your ship disappears. From what happened to me, it certainly appears that way.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:01:00 -
[70]
It's a sad reflection on the current design of the game that this question is even asked.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:18:00 -
[71]
When she's done and not a moment before.
wait, what was the question again?
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\\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
SSgt Sniper
Gallente
MAIDS
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:09:00 -
[72]
Edited by: SSgt Sniper on 09/10/2008 09:13:08
Originally by: Daergaar
Well, I recently lost a Drake because I jumped into a gate camp, and my computer froze on jump in. When I came back (I restarted immediately), I was in my pod.
I'm a very new player so I just assumed there was a time period when you log out/disconnect before your ship disappears. From what happened to me, it certainly appears that way.
I sense a very poorly fitted drake for this to have happened.
However I am not slamming on you. I fitted more than one ship very poorly when I was new. You need to spend more time in smaller ships and check out battleclinic for a bit yet.
Good luck.
Edit to add here since Navigator banhammerzored the other thread;
@Skunk, ships will disappear in a bubble after 60 seconds just like on a lowsec gate. However dps is usually a lot higher on bubblecamps (as the bubble is spensive) so they usually don't get away with it. In the other thread I mentioned a time I lost out on some loot due to one that did manage to get away with it.
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CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
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Artur Zelic
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:25:00 -
[73]
For anyone who feels secure about being a ***, I recommend contacting Outcastmere corp for logoffski tips. they are the undisputed masters of this fine art
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:30:00 -
[74]
As the other thread regarding this topic was locked, let me please repeat my suggestion:
 Ignore when someone tries to log in his alt on the same account. No influence on the ship of the other character.
If someone 'loses connection' on a grid with other ships, make the disappear timer at least 2 minutes. He can warp to the 1M km spot if not scrambled.
Reply to angry carebear petition 'Our logs show nothing unusual'
???
Profit
If it's legitimate to lose ships to lag, then it's also legitimate to lose them to disconnects 
Or is CCP's position that pirates can sustain more punishment than carebears before quitting their accounts..?
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Artur Zelic
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:36:00 -
[75]
I also suggest you change your corp name to The Docking Rabbits
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sneakybustard
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:24:00 -
[76]
TEARS!! pirates whining not getting juicy targets killed. if logging off makes so many pirates cry, i sure as hell will do it whenever possible
hahaha. |
Gilgamesh1980
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:22:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Gilgamesh1980 on 09/10/2008 11:23:25
interesting read.
if somone wants to logoff let them, ther eis still a timeframe for you to find them and let them wake up in a station in a fresh clone when happens, we have caught even freighters like this in the past.
whining about it won't make it go away, so why even bother.
I am especially surprised of Pirates whining about this tactic, especially as our breed tends to use any means to trap soemone, as in bait ships and the lot to get a target, so just bring a good prober along with you when roaming around and you will have these too.
it won't go away, and like in my own alliance I actually forbid the tactic, as I do not think it is good, however I don't really care if someone would try it outside of that point
the only ethical thing in EVE is to log off to let RL stuff take precedense over playing this game, in the EVE universe however, there are no real ethics, maybe morale, or sympathy but that's also a rare trait, just rules, and if logging off is not forbidden by rules or made illegal by CCP, who gives a flying f%$^
Supreme Commander and Diplomat of the Black Rabbits and Gurlstas associates |
Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:27:00 -
[78]
Posting my Thoughts here as the other thread was locked.
If a ship is tackled while aligning to it's emergency warp safespot then it should stay put in my opinion. It doesn't have that many negetive effects for someone logging off in a safespot with no agression timers. If someone managed to tackle your ship before you are able to align, you'd have been caught anyway, unless you were aligned but then you could just warp to the 'aligned object' then logout.
My alt has about 22 second probe time on Recon probes iirc. (rigged buzzard, cov ops 5, signal aq 5). Pretty much every sub-capital is going to have an align time shorter than that. And with a MWD every ship can have a 10 second align time. Add in 10-20 second warp time in just accelerating/decelerating and it takes at best about 30-40 seconds to catch someone in a safespot, providing you are already in probe range and you actually get a hit on your probes, as well as the scan deviation not requiring you to drop another probe or approach the ship to get within tackle range.
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Sha4d13
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:28:00 -
[79]
I have commented before- there are two easy steps to solving this issue:-
1- Have shooting at rats give you a 5 minute aggro timer. Instantly stops the cheap lame logoffski by ratters when a hostile enters system and forces them to pay attention and use some skill and thought.
2- Prevent ships from disappearing when logged if they are tackled during the timer. All fair.
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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Ore 'R' Us
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:13:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Hannibal Ord on 09/10/2008 12:13:41
Easy solution I think. And very simple.
All players can LOG OFF whenever they want. Ethics does not come into it.
If you log off. The ship starts to warp away to 1mil KM or whatever. Then after like 1 minutes it disappears.
The only time this will not happen, is if you are tackled or in a bubble. If you have points of whatever like normal, you will sit in space until you are destroyed or like a 10minute timer will make you disappear to prevent you just being held there by a tackler so the fleet can arrive. If you gate camp, and you are cloaked and log off because youcan't escape. The ship decloaks and begins to enter warp. This means they can still tackle you before it aligns and can still point u.
When you log back in, you always warp back to where you warped in. ALWAYS. Even if you stop logging in, the ship will fly to the warp point and then warp back to 1mil KM and then disappear in 1 minute.
REALLY all this is it ethical stuff is annoying.
DC are s***, but you can try to petition them. If you get your ship back, then who cares, the killers still got the kill.
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Viktor Speranza
White Wolf Enterprises
Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:42:00 -
[81]
The only unethical time to log off is when your other hobby is torturing small kittens or children. Then you should always play EVE.
Come to Penirgman VII û Ministry of Internal Order Assembly Plant to apply for WWES! |
H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:50:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Viktor Speranza
The only unethical time to log off is when your other hobby is torturing small kittens or children. Then you should always play EVE.
Phew - thx god I'm torturing and eating puppies
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Odessima
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.09 13:03:00 -
[83]
Originally by: sneakybustard
TEARS!! pirates whining not getting juicy targets killed. if logging off makes so many pirates cry, i sure as hell will do it whenever possible
hahaha.
and the downside to that would be????
My comments are my own and arent neccesarily anything to do with my corp.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:38:00 -
[84]
Didn't read it all, but the logon trick with 1mil km away from log point can be easily fixed by CCP.
Only update location of guy logging on after warp. So initial warp until dropping out will not be recorded. Then when they log on again, they still warp to the same point.
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Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Wendre
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:05:00 -
[85]
Mods said to use this thread instead of the other one, so reposting my thoughts here:
Originally by: Seth Ruin
However, I've yet to see one reasonable suggestion as to what CCP should do about it.
Tie it to security rating. An occasional logoff or interrupted connection will have a minor hit, repeated logoffski's ramps up the penalty and it starts cranking your rating down very quickly. This keeps the intended mechanic while punishing repeated abuse of such. Maybe throw in a cool-down timer that scales the same way, to prevent those edge cases where a player can't dig out of the security hole.
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Daergaar
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord
DC are s***, but you can try to petition them. If you get your ship back, then who cares, the killers still got the kill.
\
I didn't even bother petitioning. First of all, I doubt they would make a fuss about a new player who lost a 33 mil isk ship (I could care less about the 'prestige' the pirates get for getting a kill on a new player in shitty T1 unnamed modules also). Furthermore, who would believe me? I could have just as easily pulled my ethernet cable out of the back of my computer and blamed it on a disconnect, how would CCP know any different? I don't ever expect them to give a ship to me for a disconnect.
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