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DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:44:00 - [31] Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 21:46:36 If I know/knew I wouldn't tell you. The point is to be one of the fewest people the most efficient ship for as long as possible. There are some good ideas here but they don't really know. I can guarentee the really smart people, the ones with the best ideas, won't telling them around any time soon. You're going to have to find out by either A. Getting owned by someone better then you, then blaming it on the ship because you can't have lost to a better player. B. Hear about it by a whining Player A. C. Come up with it on your own and hog it for as long as physically possible before Player A. whines it into common use of "Bs" and eventually into nerfdom. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:47:00 - [32] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 21:45:31 If I know/knew I wouldn't tell you. The point is to be one of the fewest people the most efficient ship for as long as possible. There are some good ideas here but they don't really know. I can guarentee the really smart people, the ones with the best ideas, won't telling them around any time soon. You're going to have to find out by either A. Getting owned by someone better then you, then blaming it on the ship because you can't have lost to a better player. B. Hear about it by a whining Player A. C. Come up with it on your own and hog it for as long as physically possible before Player A. whines it into nerfdom. You're absolutely right... I haven't given away my best ideas for the next overpowered ships. And I'm not comparing notes with you either.. I've got less than a month until my skills are ready for it. -Liang --
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Khraunus 2.5 mil SP drake No. Drake is not overpowerd. The Drake is good when fitted right, yes. But far from overpowerd.
Varus Riaz Gallente Sarissa Defense Group	Posted - 2008.10.09 22:02:00 - [34] Missile boats, but I predict they aren't the next thing to be whined about until they get nerfed into the ground. The next thing to be nerfed into the ground will be cloaking ships.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:00:00 - [35] Originally by: JVol Arazu will find new life... No, it won't. As long as one Sensor Booster can completely negate 2-3 damps on a RSD dedicated ship, the Arazu will NEVER have a life. Especially once it's speed is reduced. Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff No, it won't. As long as one Sensor Booster can completely negate 2-3 damps on a RSD dedicated ship, the Arazu will NEVER have a life. Especially once it's speed is reduced. If you don't get it already it's probebly better if it doesn't get said. Again with the whole "kept secrets are best" thing.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:49:00 - [37] Originally by: DubanFP If you don't get it already it's probebly better if it doesn't get said. Again with the whole "kept secrets are best" thing. Mmm... If you are referring to the scram/mwd, no it still won't give the Arazu new life. 20-25km range and no tank means expensive coffin. If RSDs were more effective, then yeah, it'd be great. But at that close a range, the target's gangmates will rip an Arazu apart in seconds. If you are referring to something else that will miraculously make the Arazu useful, then I will certainly look forward to it with eager anticipation.
abrasive soap HOMELESS. Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's hard to say: + Laser Ships, due primarily to near blaster damage at extreme range + Missile Ships, due to HAMs and Torps [Possibly balanced by new missile formula] + AFs, due to scram boost and web nerf + Falcon, but I expect this to be horribly nerfed shortly - Blasters, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Really, considering the huge nerfs headed down the pipe towards Gallente and Minmatar, whatever the next "pwnship" will be almost certainly has to be Amarr or Caldari... and with the missile changes it's very likely to be Amarr. I can't say for sure though... :) -Liang Stop trying to preemptively nerf amarr. We can look at the geddon (without drones) 3 heat sinks 7 dual heavy pulse (because amarr lacks cpu and needs it badly for a heavy injector) amarr mf: 739 Now we can look at the mega (without drones) 3 magstabs 7 neutrons fed navy am: 935 With ogre2s, we add 317 dps. You have repeatedly claimed that the advantage of lasers is fighting at medium ranges. At these longer ranges, drones are either not used or they are destroyed due to being unable to be scooped-redeployed. The mega will be fighting in the ranges where ogres will be able to be scooped and redeployed, effectively employing the extra damage. The point of the above is that preemptive buffing/nerfing is unreasonable and stop trying to nerf amarr
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:01:00 - [39] /me waves hand 'falcons are not overpowered'
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:02:00 - [40] Originally by: LadyLubU2 /me waves hand 'falcons are not overpowered' Here we go.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:05:00 - [41] Quote: The point of the above is that preemptive buffing/nerfing is unreasonable and stop trying to nerf amarr I'm not actually. There's currently no reason not to train lasers... and comparing DHP to Neutrons is just a bit silly. There are viable megapulse setups for the Geddon... try using one. -Liang
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:59:00 - [42] In random order: - falcons (try to burn 200km to "tackle" them after nerf) - precission light missile cerbs (try to get under 100km from them in ceptor - wish you luck) - cruise ravens (even if sig can remove 1/3 of DPS they will still break all cruisers easily) - pulses (especially pulse apocs) - sniper MWD HACs - drakes vs anything cruiser sized and smaller Pretty much most nano pilots will just move to longer ranges now, out of "OMG ABs rock!" range - and just snipe em w/o retribution.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 01:02:00 - [43] Originally by: abrasive soap 3 heat sinks 7 dual heavy pulse (because amarr lacks cpu and needs it badly for a heavy injector) amarr mf: 739 Learn how to fly geddon - because what you posted is shit. I run 5 (+2x dhp) or 7 megapulses on most setups (with 3 sinks) and no, geddon does NOT need heavy injector. Suddenly my DPS is around 1160 (with berzerkers, without around 900).
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:36:00 - [44] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's hard to say: + Laser Ships, due primarily to near blaster damage at extreme range + Missile Ships, due to HAMs and Torps [Possibly balanced by new missile formula] + AFs, due to scram boost and web nerf + Falcon, but I expect this to be horribly nerfed shortly - Blasters, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Really, considering the huge nerfs headed down the pipe towards Gallente and Minmatar, whatever the next "pwnship" will be almost certainly has to be Amarr or Caldari... and with the missile changes it's very likely to be Amarr. I can't say for sure though... :) -Liang I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:37:00 - [45] Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all. Yeah, it's why it's got a disclaimer on it. CCP isn't known for doing things by halves, so I may have wasted 2 years of pure missile skill training. :-/ -Liang
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 21:45:31 If I know/knew I wouldn't tell you. The point is to be one of the fewest people the most efficient ship for as long as possible. There are some good ideas here but they don't really know. I can guarentee the really smart people, the ones with the best ideas, won't telling them around any time soon. You're going to have to find out by either A. Getting owned by someone better then you, then blaming it on the ship because you can't have lost to a better player. B. Hear about it by a whining Player A. C. Come up with it on your own and hog it for as long as physically possible before Player A. whines it into nerfdom. You're absolutely right... I haven't given away my best ideas for the next overpowered ships. And I'm not comparing notes with you either.. I've got less than a month until my skills are ready for it. -Liang Last i heard you were training a carrier.. OMG rr-ing mofo cmaping carriers of doom! lol theyll actually be better at that post-nerf now that i think of it x)
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:42:00 - [47] Edited by: BiggestT on 10/10/2008 02:42:43 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all. Yeah, it's why it's got a disclaimer on it. CCP isn't known for doing things by halves, so I may have wasted 2 years of pure missile skill training. :-/ -Liang At least i can always fly an eagle
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 03:21:00 - [48] Originally by: BiggestT Last i heard you were training a carrier.. OMG rr-ing mofo cmaping carriers of doom! lol theyll actually be better at that post-nerf now that i think of it x) I have more than one character.... but the Niddy/Nagl and Chimera/Phoenix and Moros/Thanny are indeed on my list to train shortly. God knows there's really not alot else to train. -Liang --
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 03:51:00 - [49] Non-overpowered ship that everyone will continue to whine about: Falcons. They aren't overpowered now, and they won't be post-patch. If anything, finally killing off Gallente/Minmatar will put more people in long-range setups, and life will get a lot more interesting for Falcon pilots. Worst guess for the next pwnmobile: anything related to missiles or drones. If the missile "changes" are anywhere near as overkill as the speed nerf that is going to make them necessary, Caldari are going back to carebear-only status. Most effective, but likely to see a nerf: Appropriately-sized Amarr ship with pulses, locus rigs, and 3x heatsinks. My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors...
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Non-overpowered ship that everyone will continue to whine about: Falcons. They aren't overpowered now, and they won't be post-patch. If anything, finally killing off Gallente/Minmatar will put more people in long-range setups, and life will get a lot more interesting for Falcon pilots. Worst guess for the next pwnmobile: anything related to missiles or drones. If the missile "changes" are anywhere near as overkill as the speed nerf that is going to make them necessary, Caldari are going back to carebear-only status. Most effective, but likely to see a nerf: Appropriately-sized Amarr ship with pulses, locus rigs, and 3x heatsinks. My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors... Pretty much this, but at least we can all feel good that weve all been nerfed, and simply ignore our ammar overlords, if every1 doesnt let them join the fleet, then well never have to fight with/against them :D lol jk
abrasive soap HOMELESS. Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all. Yeah, it's why it's got a disclaimer on it. CCP isn't known for doing things by halves, so I may have wasted 2 years of pure missile skill training. :-/ -Liang The sad thing is that the missile nerf is sort of going to be required for the nano nerf, yet at the same time its almost guaranteed that missiles will get over-nerfed due to ccp's pattern with the nerf hammer Concerning the geddon, the heavy injector makes you less susceptible to neuts opposed to a medium injector, but the mixed dhp with mp lets you fit the heavy injector. The example was to show that the mega is neither totally useless nor broken as of now. How the mega and every other ship will fare post nano nerf is uncertain though, as tracking will be affected, range will be more of an issue, and ewar may play an even more important role. Damps, ecm, neuts, and possibly even target painters may become more common (because red lasers pointing at your target are awesome ).
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:50:00 - [52] Originally by: abrasive soap The sad thing is that the missile nerf is sort of going to be required for the nano nerf, yet at the same time its almost guaranteed that missiles will get over-nerfed due to ccp's pattern with the nerf hammer I actually sighed sadly when I read this. :-/ Quote: Concerning the geddon, the heavy injector makes you less susceptible to neuts opposed to a medium injector, but the mixed dhp with mp lets you fit the heavy injector. The example was to show that the mega is neither totally useless nor broken as of now. How the mega and every other ship will fare post nano nerf is uncertain though, as tracking will be affected, range will be more of an issue, and ewar may play an even more important role. Damps, ecm, neuts, and possibly even target painters may become more common (because red lasers pointing at your target are awesome ). Yeah, I know why you "need" the heavy injector - I fly a pest pretty regularly afterall. The problem comes from that you need it less and less as gang sizes go up (though certainly you do need AN injector!) I'm really not sure, in the end, what we're going to see as far as ewar. Damps probably won't be it, because their effectiveness is so low in close range combat - and damp ships lack the survivability that a Scorp might have or the range a Falcon might have. Eh, not all is gloomy though. :) -Liang
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Merin Ryskin My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors... curse most overpowered after speed nerf? Wow, that is one awful bet.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:59:00 - [54] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Merin Ryskin My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors... curse most overpowered after speed nerf? Wow, that is one awful bet. Like I said, what are the things that kill Curses? Missiles and drones. What are the things CCP has stated they are going to nerf along with speed? Missiles and drones. Minmatar and their capless guns are pretty much dead as a PvP option, so that means the only decent PvP ships are going to be cap-heavy gunboats. And cap-heavy gunboats are kind of the Curse's ideal target. Of course this wouldn't be true if I had any faith in CCP's ability to simply keep missiles and drones at their current level and only adjust the extra power they would get out of the speed nerf. But after the giant "**** YOU" they've given us by completely ignoring all of the feedback and near-unanimous agreement that the current speed nerf is massive overkill, do you really want to bet on a sane fix?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:09:00 - [55] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:11:23 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Like I said, what are the things that kill Curses? Missiles and drones. What are the things CCP has stated they are going to nerf along with speed? Missiles and drones. Minmatar and their capless guns are pretty much dead as a PvP option, so that means the only decent PvP ships are going to be cap-heavy gunboats. And cap-heavy gunboats are kind of the Curse's ideal target. Of course this wouldn't be true if I had any faith in CCP's ability to simply keep missiles and drones at their current level and only adjust the extra power they would get out of the speed nerf. But after the giant "**** YOU" they've given us by completely ignoring all of the feedback and near-unanimous agreement that the current speed nerf is massive overkill, do you really want to bet on a sane fix? Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You're making it sound like ccp is making missiles worse after patch, when infact missiles will be BETTER after patch even with the "adjustments". Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue against that. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. Of course you wouldn't think so. You're the only person that frequents Eve-O that hasn't wholesale accepted that Amarr is simply WTFBBQIMBA on TQ as things are now - and that it's going to get alot worse when the patch comes in. Quote: Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You mean, overpowered like pulse lasers? Quote: Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue that. I think Merin's original assertion is that falcons are going to get nerfed... though I think both of us (and maybe including you) would rather see other ewars (like TDs) boosted to be more effective. -Liang --
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. Of course you wouldn't think so. You're the only person that frequents Eve-O that hasn't wholesale accepted that Amarr is simply WTFBBQIMBA on TQ as things are now - and that it's going to get alot worse when the patch comes in. Quote: Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You mean, overpowered like pulse lasers? Quote: Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue that. I think Merin's original assertion is that falcons are going to get nerfed... though I think both of us (and maybe including you) would rather see other ewars (like TDs) boosted to be more effective. -Liang 1. I dont even use the curse today because Id rather use a sac for solo and there are better ways of dealing with falcons imo. 2. I dont like the implementation of ecm on falcons as it works today. Crummy counters and boring effects. Its killing small scale pvp imo. First thing to realise/fix: cov ops cloak + ecm is bad.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:28:00 - [58] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:29:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. One Curse for every ship in the gang. That's only 1:1 odds. Quote: Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You're making it sound like ccp is making missiles worse after patch, when infact missiles will be BETTER after patch even with the "adjustments". Sure they aren't. Like I said, do you seriously have any faith in CCP's ability to only nerf a single problem rather than going for massive overkill? Why do you think the missile "changes" will be any different than the speed nerf, where to fix a few problem nano setups they've introduced massive game-breaking changes and then ignored all player feedback on the issue? My guess is changing the damage formula will end up being too difficult, and CCP will just say "** it" and cut missile base damage by 50%. Quote:** Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue against that. There's the same counter there's always been: KILL THE FALCON. It's not the Falcon pilot's fault that most people assume everything outside 24km is irrelevant. The reason it's going to be harder to fly a Falcon is because CCP have finally killed Minmatar and Gallente to the point where even the most devoted fans can't even justify flying them. Soon those people are going to be leaving their helpless close-range ships behind, and flying Amarr/Caldari ships that can potentially shoot back at a Falcon. More Zealots and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:31:00 - [59] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:36:00 - [60] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:37:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix. Not really. 1) Nerf polycarbons back into line with all other rigs, so the rig is weaker than the T2 module. 2) Nerf Snakes and other implants so the gap between "obscenely rich ebayer" and plain T2 is the same as the gap for all other ships. 3) Fix precision heavy missile velocity so they do non-zero damage to nano ships. Problem solved. The rest of the game is balanced just fine once the high-end nano setups are removed. The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly.

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