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Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.10 06:17:00 - [61] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:10:00 - [62] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:37:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix. Not really. 1) Nerf polycarbons back into line with all other rigs, so the rig is weaker than the T2 module. 2) Nerf Snakes and other implants so the gap between "obscenely rich ebayer" and plain T2 is the same as the gap for all other ships. 3) Fix precision heavy missile velocity so they do non-zero damage to nano ships. Problem solved. The rest of the game is balanced just fine once the high-end nano setups are removed. The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly. Not really. Because the problem of nano is not rare extra pimped nano ships. It is the general wide spread t2 nanoing that is the problem. Besides even with your fixes you would need to adjust missiles. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:26:00 - [63] Wow, now people are pre-whinging Some people astound me... Light travels faster than sound..., which is why some people appear intelligent until they speak.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:28:00 - [64] Originally by: The Tzar which is why some people appear intelligent until they speak. Fortunately, you don't have that particular problem.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.10 12:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Tzar which is why some people appear intelligent until they speak. Fortunately, you don't have that particular problem. You again Branko? Whats up? You don't like my avatar or something __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:11:00 - [66] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. Zealot can hit out to over 150 plus falloff, it aligns quick and it locks quick. It is also pretty fast. It's very very easy using bookmarks to put Zealot in shooting range of a falcon. For sniper BS I agree with ignoring the possability of moving around and warping to different on grid points (even though every single fleet fight revolves around this tactic). But for HAC's and recons it is very viable in even small engagements.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:19:00 - [67] Originally by: Cautet Zealot can hit out to over 150 plus falloff, it aligns quick and it locks quick. It is also pretty fast. It's very very easy using bookmarks to put Zealot in shooting range of a falcon. For sniper BS I agree with ignoring the possability of moving around and warping to different on grid points (even though every single fleet fight revolves around this tactic). But for HAC's and recons it is very viable in even small engagements. If the Zealot can get into range of a falcon (and much of the time it CAN) it's actually a quite effective anti-falcon ship. It attacks the weakest resistances the ship has with a very high instant hit alpha (for a cruiser at any rate). But you can't discount the fact that the Falcon can potentially operate well outside the Zealot's maximimum engagement range, whereas it's almost impossible to say the same about an Eagle or Cerberus.
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:25:00 - [68] People are going to be moaning about HAM Drakes next, once they get over their speed addiction. August Guns
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Cautet Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. Zealot can hit out to over 150 plus falloff, it aligns quick and it locks quick. It is also pretty fast. It's very very easy using bookmarks to put Zealot in shooting range of a falcon. For sniper BS I agree with ignoring the possability of moving around and warping to different on grid points (even though every single fleet fight revolves around this tactic). But for HAC's and recons it is very viable in even small engagements. With max skills, assuming you're using optimal range boosters (and you are not), the zealot can reach 149 optimal +10km falloff. It will deal just over 300 dps with about 800 alpha; taking about 20 seconds to destroy an untanked falcon. With its 2 free midslots (lowslots occupied by 3x TE, 3x HS, RCU, 3rd mid MWD) it needs 2 sensor boosters to lock to 167km, which leaves no room for locking speed scripts, or, more importantly, ECCM. With only 13 sensor strength, a reasonably skilled falcon can, with an amarr jammer, permajam a zealot. It will kill a falcon pretty quickly - within a single jam cycle - if it is untanked, in range, and doesn't notice it - good for killing poor falcon pilots, but not very reliable against good ones. At least the same zealot can also load multifrequency and deal 550 dps from 41km __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Deathhawk Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:34:00 - [70] i say PILGRIM!! :D and i am always right
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:44:00 - [71] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 10/10/2008 15:51:26 Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 10/10/2008 15:50:34 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. At last, someone with a little perspective. Not to mention we haven't even talked about using multiple jammers... Also, we haven't even seen much concrete stuff on the missiles at all. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Not really. Because the problem of nano is not rare extra pimped nano ships. It is the general wide spread t2 nanoing that is the problem. Besides even with your fixes you would need to adjust missiles. Some more truth. What's worse; a few stinking rich people flying extravagant and cheesy ships that can clock 10 km/s and shoot nerf arrows, simply annoying the heck out of most non range-capable ships and the Gallente face-melters and getting turned into scrap when they take one wrong step, or a whole swathe of people flying reasonably inexpensive and easily accessible harassment ships and/or 200km-capable ECM-boats that can all escape nearly all retaliation, making a shit ton of PvP an utter gamble and an exercise in futility?
achoura	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:58:00 - [72] Originally by: Merin Ryskin [The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly. What faith? You're playing the only mmo sold as a primary pvp game that lacks any real reward system for pvp like the other mmos around where pvp is a viable play style that doesn't require hours of grinding missions or rats in order to progress and for those that do have faith in ccp they near halved the lp from missions last patch (and "forgot" to mention it in the notes) increasing the timesink in full knowledge they're preparing to reduce the payoffs soon .
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:23:00 - [73] Amarr ships in general will be very strong after the changes. A lot is resting on how CCP revamps the missile damage formula though, Caldari could be very strong, or they could be re-relegated to PVE -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:29:00 - [74] Originally by: Haradgrim Amarr ships in general will be very strong after the changes. A lot is resting on how CCP revamps the missile damage formula though, Caldari could be very strong, or they could be re-relegated to PVE Ill say it one last time. Caldari never were only PvE. they are good and cometetive in PvP IF you know how to fly them. Unfortunately caldari is "omg my missiles always hit in level 3 missions" easy way out and most pilots dont even try to learn anything more than f1-f8, go afk. Plain and simple: around 90% of caldari pilots are ******s. Myself i flown cerb in combat since 1,5 year ago and its awesome boat. Sure - it cant solo much, but there are plenty of ships that cant solo. But in gangs? Its awesome damage dealer. Same for raven - both torp and cruises were uber (and still are). So no idea where you get that "caldari = only pve" thing.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:40:00 - [75] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Haradgrim Amarr ships in general will be very strong after the changes. A lot is resting on how CCP revamps the missile damage formula though, Caldari could be very strong, or they could be re-relegated to PVE Ill say it one last time. Caldari never were only PvE. they are good and cometetive in PvP IF you know how to fly them. Unfortunately caldari is "omg my missiles always hit in level 3 missions" easy way out and most pilots dont even try to learn anything more than f1-f8, go afk. Plain and simple: around 90% of caldari pilots are ******s. Myself i flown cerb in combat since 1,5 year ago and its awesome boat. Sure - it cant solo much, but there are plenty of ships that cant solo. But in gangs? Its awesome damage dealer. Same for raven - both torp and cruises were uber (and still are). So no idea where you get that "caldari = only pve" thing. Deva, I don't think he's claiming otherwise. I think what he's saying is that the missile changes that are coming could totally screw over any hopes Caldari have of being effective in PVP... and it's a very real possibility. -Liang --
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:45:00 - [76] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/10/2008 16:45:32 Originally by: Liang Nuren Deva, I don't think he's claiming otherwise. I think what he's saying is that the missile changes that are coming could totally screw over any hopes Caldari have of being effective in PVP... and it's a very real possibility. -Liang I dont think so. There are 2 possible changes ccp can do: 1. leave missiles as they are (thus they are overpowered) 2. make em a bit worse than they were on sisi (thus again forcing caldari to become gang ships - so exactly as it is now on TQ). Only way of totally screwing missiles would be playing with explosion radius (upping on heavies so they only damage cruisers etc) but by doing this ccp would have to redo all sig radiuses of existing ships, thus breaking turret tracking/lock time stuff. So all you will see will be probably tad reduced explo velocity (along with speed) but missiles will always damage comparable sized ship class = overpowered buff. But knowing ccp they will go this way. Anyways if you want to be sure to kill ceptors just train for cerb and precission lights. For vaga denial just go with heavies.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:08:00 - [77] That's the thing though: just changing the explo velocity won't actually change anything about what made them overpowered on Sisi... and in the end the things that CCP is complaining about with missiles boils down to sig radius, not speed. Also, all evidence points to a whole new missile formula - not just changed attributes. -Liang
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:15:00 - [78] Id like to be as optimistic as you are. But CCP usually screws more things than they fix so what we saw on Sisi is probably what will arrive to TQ (maybe 5-10% difference).
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:19:00 - [79] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id like to be as optimistic as you are. But CCP usually screws more things than they fix so what we saw on Sisi is probably what will arrive to TQ (maybe 5-10% difference). Man if you think I'm optimistic about these changes you must be a black pit of despair... -Liang
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:20:00 - [80] In the live devblog it was stated that the new missile formula would use the relationshp between target sig radius and target speed. Now, that could mean just about anything, but I'm expecting it to mean that that an ABing shig will see a substantial reduction in damage, thanks to highish speed and small sig, while a MWDing ship will see similar reduction, thanks to high speed and largish sig. Whatever it is, it's gotta be better than the current broken system, where ABs prevent no damage and the explosion velocity falloff cliff is an invitation to nano.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:22:00 - [81] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id like to be as optimistic as you are. But CCP usually screws more things than they fix so what we saw on Sisi is probably what will arrive to TQ (maybe 5-10% difference). Man if you think I'm optimistic about these changes you must be a black pit of despair... -Liang I just take it for granted they will screw something up.
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.10.11 19:29:00 - [82] a domi with 3 ECCM + Heat on them still couldn't lock down a falcon
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 19:59:00 - [83] Originally by: fightnkill a domi with 3 ECCM + Heat on them still couldn't lock down a falcon ECCM isn't a guarantee of invulnerability to ECM. Not even 3 of them. -Liang --
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 20:39:00 - [84] Originally by: Liang Nuren ECCM isn't a guarantee of invulnerability to ECM. Not even 3 of them. -Liang To be fair, when you put it that way ECM isn't a guarentee of invulnerabillity either. Even when you have 5 of the best ECM. It is luck based after all. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 20:45:00 - [85] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Liang Nuren ECCM isn't a guarantee of invulnerability to ECM. Not even 3 of them. -Liang To be fair, when you put it that way ECM isn't a guarentee of invulnerabillity either. Even when you have 5 of the best ECM. It is luck based after all. I never disagreed... but I've seen ECCM work, and work well. I deliberately took a Rupture into the jaws of an Ishtar/Falcon combo and damn near killed the Ishtar with only a sensor backup array. I'd have have almost certainly killed the Ishtar with an overloaded ECCM (nevermind 3 of them and with the much higher natural sensor strength of a domi!). -Liang --
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:13:00 - [86] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue against that. Well you can just grab a random PvE cruiseraven pilot and have him fit for range. Then bring him along as a falconbuster Waves of 250 km range cruise missiles every 8 secs will scare off or kill a falcon pretty fast. "I dont need facts when I have the truth"
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:15:00 - [87] Originally by: Hyveres Well you can just grab a random PvE cruiseraven pilot and have him fit for range. Then bring him along as a falconbuster Waves of 250 km range cruise missiles every 8 secs will scare off or kill a falcon pretty fast. Its far better to armor tank it, honestly. Then you can take advantage of armor RR and fit 2x SB, 2x ECCM in the mids. -Liang --
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:17:00 - [88] or you can put that caldari pilot in ya know, a falcon. How to Fail at Eve
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:22:00 - [89] Edited by: Hyveres on 11/10/2008 21:23:18 Originally by: Rajere or you can put that caldari pilot in ya know, a falcon. Means getting one that has the skillset to fly a falcon. The majority of caldari carebears have the missileskills to do a 250 km range cruiseraven for gang use. They dont have the skillset for a falcon .. at least not in my experience. In simple terms the game is flowing over with ravenpilots that have decent/good missile skills. Falconpilots who are able to do the job well are quite a bit rarer. Heck finding someone who can do 250 km range raven with T2 cruise is like picking a random dude off the street it seems :) "I dont need facts when I have the truth"
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:23:00 - [90] Originally by: Rajere or you can put that caldari pilot in ya know, a falcon. You can look to the last PVP tournament for an object example of how a gang fares with too many 'falcons'. -Liang --

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