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Canis Trucido	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:25:00 - [1] lets all start training it right now!
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:33:00 - [2] Raven!
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:33:00 - [3] Falcon. It all ready is anyway.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:34:00 - [4] Falcon. Is and will be even more so after speed nerf. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:34:00 - [5] It's hard to say: + Laser Ships, due primarily to near blaster damage at extreme range + Missile Ships, due to HAMs and Torps [Possibly balanced by new missile formula] + AFs, due to scram boost and web nerf + Falcon, but I expect this to be horribly nerfed shortly - Blasters, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Really, considering the huge nerfs headed down the pipe towards Gallente and Minmatar, whatever the next "pwnship" will be almost certainly has to be Amarr or Caldari... and with the missile changes it's very likely to be Amarr. I can't say for sure though... :) -Liang --
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Burn Mac on 09/10/2008 18:35:59 Originally by: Megan Maynard Falcon. It all ready is anyway. Fail he is asking for the next, Falcon is the current.
Khraunus Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:36:00 - [7] 2.5 mil SP drake
jerrard iceni Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:39:00 - [8] In no particular order... falcon,raven & arazu.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Burn Mac Edited by: Burn Mac on 09/10/2008 18:35:59 Originally by: Megan Maynard Falcon. It all ready is anyway. Fail he is asking for the next, Falcon is the current. My bad.
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:51:00 - [10] HAM Drakes for everyone!
Donna Divine Gilded Goose Brokerage	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:56:00 - [11] Missile spammers and anything with pulses. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gilded Goose Brokerages Trading to order.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:57:00 - [12] Zealot. With everyone copying my fits. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:10:00 - [13] Ibis
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Khraunus 2.5 mil SP drake Originally by: RedSplat HAM Drakes for everyone! Drake: "Hello! I am your everyday friendly missile-spewing coffee table. Please allow me to utterly ruin your day as you fly a HAC or Recon three times more expensive than me and requiring of four months more training to be effective. You don't have to thank me. I'll just sit and laugh as I tank you out and bust your expensive drones while sneering at the fact that there are no viable counters to missiles.'
JVol Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:15:00 - [15] Arazu will find new life, but I dont think ANY ship will be OVERpowerd. Falcs do their ONE job as well as any ship that has ONE job. It's going to be intresting to see how pvp'rs ( real pvp'rs ) respond to the nano balance..
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:23:00 - [16] Falcons are Meh. Personally Id rather the Enemy field Falcons than Curses. At least a falcon can't shutdown my tank. Curse + TD + ECM drones = Awesome in gangs. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Last Wolf Falcons are Meh. Personally Id rather the Enemy field Falcons than Curses. At least a falcon can't shutdown my tank. Curse + TD + ECM drones = Awesome in gangs. Yeah when you are ganking targets. When the opposing side as equal amounts of ships your curse will end up dead in seconds. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:56:00 - [18] black ops + fuel bay + stealth bombers + bombs
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:57:00 - [19] Originally by: slothe black ops + fuel bay + stealth bombers + bombs Not unless they boost the hell out of bombs.... -Liang --
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Why ? They got good falloff range anyways, no ?
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.09 20:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Last Wolf Falcons are Meh. Personally Id rather the Enemy field Falcons than Curses. At least a falcon can't shutdown my tank. Curse + TD + ECM drones = Awesome in gangs. Yeah when you are ganking targets. When the opposing side as equal amounts of ships your curse will end up dead in seconds. Also, the Curse does not pop out of precisely nowhere, making it far less useful for alt warfare and baiting. Not to mention its range is a fraction of the Falcon's...
Traidor Disloyal Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.09 20:05:00 - [22] Has long has I haves me Reaper I will be uber! --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.09 20:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Liang Nuren - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Why ? They got good falloff range anyways, no ? And there capless Obvious troll is obvious, Trevor *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.09 20:29:00 - [24] Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Liang Nuren - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Why ? They got good falloff range anyways, no ? And there capless Obvious troll is obvious, Trevor Heh ... No.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Liang Nuren - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Why ? They got good falloff range anyways, no ? Falloff affects both hit quantity and hit quality. I mean, if you like guaranteeing that you're going to do at most 38% of your (already low) EFT damage, sure, you can run ACs. OTOH, I'd rather be doing 100-103% of my EFT damage at the same range by using lasers. Falloff merely means that they can hit - not that they hit well. -Liang --
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren Falloff affects both hit quantity and hit quality. I mean, if you like guaranteeing that you're going to do at most 38% of your (already low) EFT damage, sure, you can run ACs. OTOH, I'd rather be doing 100-103% of my EFT damage at the same range by using lasers. Falloff merely means that they can hit - not that they hit well. Sure, but I mean, thats nothing new. Alot of AC boat are already fighting outside web range on TQ. I don't see how the patch will be a negative point for ACs. If anything they will have less tracking problem and up a bit their average damage. I agree on the rest of the list, tho.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Trevor Warps Sure, but I mean, thats nothing new. Alot of AC boat are already fighting outside web range on TQ. I don't see how the patch will be a negative point for ACs. If anything they will have less tracking problem and up a bit their average damage. I agree on the rest of the list, tho. Well, there are two lines of thought with ACs: get in close, dual web, and melt face with RF EMP/Hail or poke around the edges of their range with Barrage and hope to eventually run them out of cap boosters/hitpoints. THe first one takes a dramatic hit since hail won't even be feasible with dual webs anymore, and the second takes a fairly impressive hit from the agility changes. I did try these on the test server, and that's the impression that I gained from them. Of course, blasters have it far worse. :-/ -Liang --
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:25:00 - [28] Hmmm, right. I never use Hail tho, i use blaster ships instead, lol.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Trevor Warps Hmmm, right. I never use Hail tho, i use blaster ships instead, lol. Hail's ok, but it's really nothing special. I figure most of the time I have it loaded that I should have been using RF EMP... maybe more. The range penalties are freaking brutal, especially just to gain a base parity on ammo damage. And I'd use a blaster ship too, but I really prefer my Raven and Domi these days. :) -Liang --
Azuse Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:34:00 - [30] /me applys another coat of wax to Zealot & Sacrilege. -------------------------
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:44:00 - [31] Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 21:46:36 If I know/knew I wouldn't tell you. The point is to be one of the fewest people the most efficient ship for as long as possible. There are some good ideas here but they don't really know. I can guarentee the really smart people, the ones with the best ideas, won't telling them around any time soon. You're going to have to find out by either A. Getting owned by someone better then you, then blaming it on the ship because you can't have lost to a better player. B. Hear about it by a whining Player A. C. Come up with it on your own and hog it for as long as physically possible before Player A. whines it into common use of "Bs" and eventually into nerfdom. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:47:00 - [32] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 21:45:31 If I know/knew I wouldn't tell you. The point is to be one of the fewest people the most efficient ship for as long as possible. There are some good ideas here but they don't really know. I can guarentee the really smart people, the ones with the best ideas, won't telling them around any time soon. You're going to have to find out by either A. Getting owned by someone better then you, then blaming it on the ship because you can't have lost to a better player. B. Hear about it by a whining Player A. C. Come up with it on your own and hog it for as long as physically possible before Player A. whines it into nerfdom. You're absolutely right... I haven't given away my best ideas for the next overpowered ships. And I'm not comparing notes with you either.. I've got less than a month until my skills are ready for it. -Liang --
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Khraunus 2.5 mil SP drake No. Drake is not overpowerd. The Drake is good when fitted right, yes. But far from overpowerd.
Varus Riaz Gallente Sarissa Defense Group	Posted - 2008.10.09 22:02:00 - [34] Missile boats, but I predict they aren't the next thing to be whined about until they get nerfed into the ground. The next thing to be nerfed into the ground will be cloaking ships.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:00:00 - [35] Originally by: JVol Arazu will find new life... No, it won't. As long as one Sensor Booster can completely negate 2-3 damps on a RSD dedicated ship, the Arazu will NEVER have a life. Especially once it's speed is reduced. Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff No, it won't. As long as one Sensor Booster can completely negate 2-3 damps on a RSD dedicated ship, the Arazu will NEVER have a life. Especially once it's speed is reduced. If you don't get it already it's probebly better if it doesn't get said. Again with the whole "kept secrets are best" thing.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:49:00 - [37] Originally by: DubanFP If you don't get it already it's probebly better if it doesn't get said. Again with the whole "kept secrets are best" thing. Mmm... If you are referring to the scram/mwd, no it still won't give the Arazu new life. 20-25km range and no tank means expensive coffin. If RSDs were more effective, then yeah, it'd be great. But at that close a range, the target's gangmates will rip an Arazu apart in seconds. If you are referring to something else that will miraculously make the Arazu useful, then I will certainly look forward to it with eager anticipation.
abrasive soap HOMELESS. Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's hard to say: + Laser Ships, due primarily to near blaster damage at extreme range + Missile Ships, due to HAMs and Torps [Possibly balanced by new missile formula] + AFs, due to scram boost and web nerf + Falcon, but I expect this to be horribly nerfed shortly - Blasters, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Really, considering the huge nerfs headed down the pipe towards Gallente and Minmatar, whatever the next "pwnship" will be almost certainly has to be Amarr or Caldari... and with the missile changes it's very likely to be Amarr. I can't say for sure though... :) -Liang Stop trying to preemptively nerf amarr. We can look at the geddon (without drones) 3 heat sinks 7 dual heavy pulse (because amarr lacks cpu and needs it badly for a heavy injector) amarr mf: 739 Now we can look at the mega (without drones) 3 magstabs 7 neutrons fed navy am: 935 With ogre2s, we add 317 dps. You have repeatedly claimed that the advantage of lasers is fighting at medium ranges. At these longer ranges, drones are either not used or they are destroyed due to being unable to be scooped-redeployed. The mega will be fighting in the ranges where ogres will be able to be scooped and redeployed, effectively employing the extra damage. The point of the above is that preemptive buffing/nerfing is unreasonable and stop trying to nerf amarr
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:01:00 - [39] /me waves hand 'falcons are not overpowered'
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:02:00 - [40] Originally by: LadyLubU2 /me waves hand 'falcons are not overpowered' Here we go.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:05:00 - [41] Quote: The point of the above is that preemptive buffing/nerfing is unreasonable and stop trying to nerf amarr I'm not actually. There's currently no reason not to train lasers... and comparing DHP to Neutrons is just a bit silly. There are viable megapulse setups for the Geddon... try using one. -Liang
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:59:00 - [42] In random order: - falcons (try to burn 200km to "tackle" them after nerf) - precission light missile cerbs (try to get under 100km from them in ceptor - wish you luck) - cruise ravens (even if sig can remove 1/3 of DPS they will still break all cruisers easily) - pulses (especially pulse apocs) - sniper MWD HACs - drakes vs anything cruiser sized and smaller Pretty much most nano pilots will just move to longer ranges now, out of "OMG ABs rock!" range - and just snipe em w/o retribution.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 01:02:00 - [43] Originally by: abrasive soap 3 heat sinks 7 dual heavy pulse (because amarr lacks cpu and needs it badly for a heavy injector) amarr mf: 739 Learn how to fly geddon - because what you posted is shit. I run 5 (+2x dhp) or 7 megapulses on most setups (with 3 sinks) and no, geddon does NOT need heavy injector. Suddenly my DPS is around 1160 (with berzerkers, without around 900).
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:36:00 - [44] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's hard to say: + Laser Ships, due primarily to near blaster damage at extreme range + Missile Ships, due to HAMs and Torps [Possibly balanced by new missile formula] + AFs, due to scram boost and web nerf + Falcon, but I expect this to be horribly nerfed shortly - Blasters, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs - ACs, due primarily to speed, agility, mass, web nerfs Really, considering the huge nerfs headed down the pipe towards Gallente and Minmatar, whatever the next "pwnship" will be almost certainly has to be Amarr or Caldari... and with the missile changes it's very likely to be Amarr. I can't say for sure though... :) -Liang I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:37:00 - [45] Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all. Yeah, it's why it's got a disclaimer on it. CCP isn't known for doing things by halves, so I may have wasted 2 years of pure missile skill training. :-/ -Liang
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 21:45:31 If I know/knew I wouldn't tell you. The point is to be one of the fewest people the most efficient ship for as long as possible. There are some good ideas here but they don't really know. I can guarentee the really smart people, the ones with the best ideas, won't telling them around any time soon. You're going to have to find out by either A. Getting owned by someone better then you, then blaming it on the ship because you can't have lost to a better player. B. Hear about it by a whining Player A. C. Come up with it on your own and hog it for as long as physically possible before Player A. whines it into nerfdom. You're absolutely right... I haven't given away my best ideas for the next overpowered ships. And I'm not comparing notes with you either.. I've got less than a month until my skills are ready for it. -Liang Last i heard you were training a carrier.. OMG rr-ing mofo cmaping carriers of doom! lol theyll actually be better at that post-nerf now that i think of it x)
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 02:42:00 - [47] Edited by: BiggestT on 10/10/2008 02:42:43 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all. Yeah, it's why it's got a disclaimer on it. CCP isn't known for doing things by halves, so I may have wasted 2 years of pure missile skill training. :-/ -Liang At least i can always fly an eagle
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 03:21:00 - [48] Originally by: BiggestT Last i heard you were training a carrier.. OMG rr-ing mofo cmaping carriers of doom! lol theyll actually be better at that post-nerf now that i think of it x) I have more than one character.... but the Niddy/Nagl and Chimera/Phoenix and Moros/Thanny are indeed on my list to train shortly. God knows there's really not alot else to train. -Liang --
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 03:51:00 - [49] Non-overpowered ship that everyone will continue to whine about: Falcons. They aren't overpowered now, and they won't be post-patch. If anything, finally killing off Gallente/Minmatar will put more people in long-range setups, and life will get a lot more interesting for Falcon pilots. Worst guess for the next pwnmobile: anything related to missiles or drones. If the missile "changes" are anywhere near as overkill as the speed nerf that is going to make them necessary, Caldari are going back to carebear-only status. Most effective, but likely to see a nerf: Appropriately-sized Amarr ship with pulses, locus rigs, and 3x heatsinks. My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors...
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Non-overpowered ship that everyone will continue to whine about: Falcons. They aren't overpowered now, and they won't be post-patch. If anything, finally killing off Gallente/Minmatar will put more people in long-range setups, and life will get a lot more interesting for Falcon pilots. Worst guess for the next pwnmobile: anything related to missiles or drones. If the missile "changes" are anywhere near as overkill as the speed nerf that is going to make them necessary, Caldari are going back to carebear-only status. Most effective, but likely to see a nerf: Appropriately-sized Amarr ship with pulses, locus rigs, and 3x heatsinks. My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors... Pretty much this, but at least we can all feel good that weve all been nerfed, and simply ignore our ammar overlords, if every1 doesnt let them join the fleet, then well never have to fight with/against them :D lol jk
abrasive soap HOMELESS. Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt be so quick to assume caldari greatness, im betting this dmg formula will be too conservative (so that ceptors etc arent effected much) but gimp missiles in some other way and thus missile ships wont be that hot at all. Yeah, it's why it's got a disclaimer on it. CCP isn't known for doing things by halves, so I may have wasted 2 years of pure missile skill training. :-/ -Liang The sad thing is that the missile nerf is sort of going to be required for the nano nerf, yet at the same time its almost guaranteed that missiles will get over-nerfed due to ccp's pattern with the nerf hammer Concerning the geddon, the heavy injector makes you less susceptible to neuts opposed to a medium injector, but the mixed dhp with mp lets you fit the heavy injector. The example was to show that the mega is neither totally useless nor broken as of now. How the mega and every other ship will fare post nano nerf is uncertain though, as tracking will be affected, range will be more of an issue, and ewar may play an even more important role. Damps, ecm, neuts, and possibly even target painters may become more common (because red lasers pointing at your target are awesome ).
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:50:00 - [52] Originally by: abrasive soap The sad thing is that the missile nerf is sort of going to be required for the nano nerf, yet at the same time its almost guaranteed that missiles will get over-nerfed due to ccp's pattern with the nerf hammer I actually sighed sadly when I read this. :-/ Quote: Concerning the geddon, the heavy injector makes you less susceptible to neuts opposed to a medium injector, but the mixed dhp with mp lets you fit the heavy injector. The example was to show that the mega is neither totally useless nor broken as of now. How the mega and every other ship will fare post nano nerf is uncertain though, as tracking will be affected, range will be more of an issue, and ewar may play an even more important role. Damps, ecm, neuts, and possibly even target painters may become more common (because red lasers pointing at your target are awesome ). Yeah, I know why you "need" the heavy injector - I fly a pest pretty regularly afterall. The problem comes from that you need it less and less as gang sizes go up (though certainly you do need AN injector!) I'm really not sure, in the end, what we're going to see as far as ewar. Damps probably won't be it, because their effectiveness is so low in close range combat - and damp ships lack the survivability that a Scorp might have or the range a Falcon might have. Eh, not all is gloomy though. :) -Liang
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Merin Ryskin My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors... curse most overpowered after speed nerf? Wow, that is one awful bet.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:59:00 - [54] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Merin Ryskin My bet for most overpowered: Curse. Missile ships, drone ships, and Minmatar ships will no longer exist as valid PvP options, which leaves Amarr. And guess who gets hurt most by neuts and tracking disruptors... curse most overpowered after speed nerf? Wow, that is one awful bet. Like I said, what are the things that kill Curses? Missiles and drones. What are the things CCP has stated they are going to nerf along with speed? Missiles and drones. Minmatar and their capless guns are pretty much dead as a PvP option, so that means the only decent PvP ships are going to be cap-heavy gunboats. And cap-heavy gunboats are kind of the Curse's ideal target. Of course this wouldn't be true if I had any faith in CCP's ability to simply keep missiles and drones at their current level and only adjust the extra power they would get out of the speed nerf. But after the giant "**** YOU" they've given us by completely ignoring all of the feedback and near-unanimous agreement that the current speed nerf is massive overkill, do you really want to bet on a sane fix?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:09:00 - [55] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:11:23 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Like I said, what are the things that kill Curses? Missiles and drones. What are the things CCP has stated they are going to nerf along with speed? Missiles and drones. Minmatar and their capless guns are pretty much dead as a PvP option, so that means the only decent PvP ships are going to be cap-heavy gunboats. And cap-heavy gunboats are kind of the Curse's ideal target. Of course this wouldn't be true if I had any faith in CCP's ability to simply keep missiles and drones at their current level and only adjust the extra power they would get out of the speed nerf. But after the giant "**** YOU" they've given us by completely ignoring all of the feedback and near-unanimous agreement that the current speed nerf is massive overkill, do you really want to bet on a sane fix? Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You're making it sound like ccp is making missiles worse after patch, when infact missiles will be BETTER after patch even with the "adjustments". Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue against that. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. Of course you wouldn't think so. You're the only person that frequents Eve-O that hasn't wholesale accepted that Amarr is simply WTFBBQIMBA on TQ as things are now - and that it's going to get alot worse when the patch comes in. Quote: Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You mean, overpowered like pulse lasers? Quote: Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue that. I think Merin's original assertion is that falcons are going to get nerfed... though I think both of us (and maybe including you) would rather see other ewars (like TDs) boosted to be more effective. -Liang --
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. Of course you wouldn't think so. You're the only person that frequents Eve-O that hasn't wholesale accepted that Amarr is simply WTFBBQIMBA on TQ as things are now - and that it's going to get alot worse when the patch comes in. Quote: Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You mean, overpowered like pulse lasers? Quote: Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue that. I think Merin's original assertion is that falcons are going to get nerfed... though I think both of us (and maybe including you) would rather see other ewars (like TDs) boosted to be more effective. -Liang 1. I dont even use the curse today because Id rather use a sac for solo and there are better ways of dealing with falcons imo. 2. I dont like the implementation of ecm on falcons as it works today. Crummy counters and boring effects. Its killing small scale pvp imo. First thing to realise/fix: cov ops cloak + ecm is bad.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:28:00 - [58] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:29:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes gunboats are the curses main target BUT what you are forgetting is that the same ships are also its bane if the curse doesnt 1x or 2x TD it quickly. This means in anything bigger then a 2vs2 the curse is in serious danger of dying in matter of seconds because it has basically ZERO tank. After patch I can definately say that there are better solo boats then a curse anyway. And in gang pvp its way too fragile and way too slow now to get away. Its nowhere near overpowered imo after speed nerf. One Curse for every ship in the gang. That's only 1:1 odds. Quote: Besides ccp is not going to NERF missiles and drones. They are being brought inline with the speed changes. They would obviously be overpowered if not adjusted, wich you would know if you had went to sisi and tried out the changes. You're making it sound like ccp is making missiles worse after patch, when infact missiles will be BETTER after patch even with the "adjustments". Sure they aren't. Like I said, do you seriously have any faith in CCP's ability to only nerf a single problem rather than going for massive overkill? Why do you think the missile "changes" will be any different than the speed nerf, where to fix a few problem nano setups they've introduced massive game-breaking changes and then ignored all player feedback on the issue? My guess is changing the damage formula will end up being too difficult, and CCP will just say "** it" and cut missile base damage by 50%. Quote:** Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue against that. There's the same counter there's always been: KILL THE FALCON. It's not the Falcon pilot's fault that most people assume everything outside 24km is irrelevant. The reason it's going to be harder to fly a Falcon is because CCP have finally killed Minmatar and Gallente to the point where even the most devoted fans can't even justify flying them. Soon those people are going to be leaving their helpless close-range ships behind, and flying Amarr/Caldari ships that can potentially shoot back at a Falcon. More Zealots and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:31:00 - [59] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.10 05:36:00 - [60] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:37:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix. Not really. 1) Nerf polycarbons back into line with all other rigs, so the rig is weaker than the T2 module. 2) Nerf Snakes and other implants so the gap between "obscenely rich ebayer" and plain T2 is the same as the gap for all other ships. 3) Fix precision heavy missile velocity so they do non-zero damage to nano ships. Problem solved. The rest of the game is balanced just fine once the high-end nano setups are removed. The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.10 06:17:00 - [61] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:10:00 - [62] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:37:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix. Not really. 1) Nerf polycarbons back into line with all other rigs, so the rig is weaker than the T2 module. 2) Nerf Snakes and other implants so the gap between "obscenely rich ebayer" and plain T2 is the same as the gap for all other ships. 3) Fix precision heavy missile velocity so they do non-zero damage to nano ships. Problem solved. The rest of the game is balanced just fine once the high-end nano setups are removed. The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly. Not really. Because the problem of nano is not rare extra pimped nano ships. It is the general wide spread t2 nanoing that is the problem. Besides even with your fixes you would need to adjust missiles. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:26:00 - [63] Wow, now people are pre-whinging Some people astound me... Light travels faster than sound..., which is why some people appear intelligent until they speak.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:28:00 - [64] Originally by: The Tzar which is why some people appear intelligent until they speak. Fortunately, you don't have that particular problem.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.10 12:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Tzar which is why some people appear intelligent until they speak. Fortunately, you don't have that particular problem. You again Branko? Whats up? You don't like my avatar or something __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:11:00 - [66] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. Zealot can hit out to over 150 plus falloff, it aligns quick and it locks quick. It is also pretty fast. It's very very easy using bookmarks to put Zealot in shooting range of a falcon. For sniper BS I agree with ignoring the possability of moving around and warping to different on grid points (even though every single fleet fight revolves around this tactic). But for HAC's and recons it is very viable in even small engagements.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:19:00 - [67] Originally by: Cautet Zealot can hit out to over 150 plus falloff, it aligns quick and it locks quick. It is also pretty fast. It's very very easy using bookmarks to put Zealot in shooting range of a falcon. For sniper BS I agree with ignoring the possability of moving around and warping to different on grid points (even though every single fleet fight revolves around this tactic). But for HAC's and recons it is very viable in even small engagements. If the Zealot can get into range of a falcon (and much of the time it CAN) it's actually a quite effective anti-falcon ship. It attacks the weakest resistances the ship has with a very high instant hit alpha (for a cruiser at any rate). But you can't discount the fact that the Falcon can potentially operate well outside the Zealot's maximimum engagement range, whereas it's almost impossible to say the same about an Eagle or Cerberus.
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:25:00 - [68] People are going to be moaning about HAM Drakes next, once they get over their speed addiction. August Guns
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Cautet Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. Zealot can hit out to over 150 plus falloff, it aligns quick and it locks quick. It is also pretty fast. It's very very easy using bookmarks to put Zealot in shooting range of a falcon. For sniper BS I agree with ignoring the possability of moving around and warping to different on grid points (even though every single fleet fight revolves around this tactic). But for HAC's and recons it is very viable in even small engagements. With max skills, assuming you're using optimal range boosters (and you are not), the zealot can reach 149 optimal +10km falloff. It will deal just over 300 dps with about 800 alpha; taking about 20 seconds to destroy an untanked falcon. With its 2 free midslots (lowslots occupied by 3x TE, 3x HS, RCU, 3rd mid MWD) it needs 2 sensor boosters to lock to 167km, which leaves no room for locking speed scripts, or, more importantly, ECCM. With only 13 sensor strength, a reasonably skilled falcon can, with an amarr jammer, permajam a zealot. It will kill a falcon pretty quickly - within a single jam cycle - if it is untanked, in range, and doesn't notice it - good for killing poor falcon pilots, but not very reliable against good ones. At least the same zealot can also load multifrequency and deal 550 dps from 41km __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Deathhawk Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:34:00 - [70] i say PILGRIM!! :D and i am always right
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:44:00 - [71] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 10/10/2008 15:51:26 Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 10/10/2008 15:50:34 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:33:36 Originally by: Merin Ryskin More ~~Zealots~~ Eagles and Cerberuses (if by some miracle missles are still useful in PvP) and fewer Vagabonds and Ishtars = dead Falcons. Falcon is not a mid-range ship, it's a very long range ship. Therefore, the only proper counters are very long range ships. There is a difference between 'ignoring everything outside 24km' and 200+km capability. Otherwise, you do have a point. At last, someone with a little perspective. Not to mention we haven't even talked about using multiple jammers... Also, we haven't even seen much concrete stuff on the missiles at all. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Not really. Because the problem of nano is not rare extra pimped nano ships. It is the general wide spread t2 nanoing that is the problem. Besides even with your fixes you would need to adjust missiles. Some more truth. What's worse; a few stinking rich people flying extravagant and cheesy ships that can clock 10 km/s and shoot nerf arrows, simply annoying the heck out of most non range-capable ships and the Gallente face-melters and getting turned into scrap when they take one wrong step, or a whole swathe of people flying reasonably inexpensive and easily accessible harassment ships and/or 200km-capable ECM-boats that can all escape nearly all retaliation, making a shit ton of PvP an utter gamble and an exercise in futility?
achoura	Posted - 2008.10.10 15:58:00 - [72] Originally by: Merin Ryskin [The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly. What faith? You're playing the only mmo sold as a primary pvp game that lacks any real reward system for pvp like the other mmos around where pvp is a viable play style that doesn't require hours of grinding missions or rats in order to progress and for those that do have faith in ccp they near halved the lp from missions last patch (and "forgot" to mention it in the notes) increasing the timesink in full knowledge they're preparing to reduce the payoffs soon .
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:23:00 - [73] Amarr ships in general will be very strong after the changes. A lot is resting on how CCP revamps the missile damage formula though, Caldari could be very strong, or they could be re-relegated to PVE -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:29:00 - [74] Originally by: Haradgrim Amarr ships in general will be very strong after the changes. A lot is resting on how CCP revamps the missile damage formula though, Caldari could be very strong, or they could be re-relegated to PVE Ill say it one last time. Caldari never were only PvE. they are good and cometetive in PvP IF you know how to fly them. Unfortunately caldari is "omg my missiles always hit in level 3 missions" easy way out and most pilots dont even try to learn anything more than f1-f8, go afk. Plain and simple: around 90% of caldari pilots are ******s. Myself i flown cerb in combat since 1,5 year ago and its awesome boat. Sure - it cant solo much, but there are plenty of ships that cant solo. But in gangs? Its awesome damage dealer. Same for raven - both torp and cruises were uber (and still are). So no idea where you get that "caldari = only pve" thing.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:40:00 - [75] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Haradgrim Amarr ships in general will be very strong after the changes. A lot is resting on how CCP revamps the missile damage formula though, Caldari could be very strong, or they could be re-relegated to PVE Ill say it one last time. Caldari never were only PvE. they are good and cometetive in PvP IF you know how to fly them. Unfortunately caldari is "omg my missiles always hit in level 3 missions" easy way out and most pilots dont even try to learn anything more than f1-f8, go afk. Plain and simple: around 90% of caldari pilots are ******s. Myself i flown cerb in combat since 1,5 year ago and its awesome boat. Sure - it cant solo much, but there are plenty of ships that cant solo. But in gangs? Its awesome damage dealer. Same for raven - both torp and cruises were uber (and still are). So no idea where you get that "caldari = only pve" thing. Deva, I don't think he's claiming otherwise. I think what he's saying is that the missile changes that are coming could totally screw over any hopes Caldari have of being effective in PVP... and it's a very real possibility. -Liang --
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 16:45:00 - [76] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/10/2008 16:45:32 Originally by: Liang Nuren Deva, I don't think he's claiming otherwise. I think what he's saying is that the missile changes that are coming could totally screw over any hopes Caldari have of being effective in PVP... and it's a very real possibility. -Liang I dont think so. There are 2 possible changes ccp can do: 1. leave missiles as they are (thus they are overpowered) 2. make em a bit worse than they were on sisi (thus again forcing caldari to become gang ships - so exactly as it is now on TQ). Only way of totally screwing missiles would be playing with explosion radius (upping on heavies so they only damage cruisers etc) but by doing this ccp would have to redo all sig radiuses of existing ships, thus breaking turret tracking/lock time stuff. So all you will see will be probably tad reduced explo velocity (along with speed) but missiles will always damage comparable sized ship class = overpowered buff. But knowing ccp they will go this way. Anyways if you want to be sure to kill ceptors just train for cerb and precission lights. For vaga denial just go with heavies.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:08:00 - [77] That's the thing though: just changing the explo velocity won't actually change anything about what made them overpowered on Sisi... and in the end the things that CCP is complaining about with missiles boils down to sig radius, not speed. Also, all evidence points to a whole new missile formula - not just changed attributes. -Liang
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:15:00 - [78] Id like to be as optimistic as you are. But CCP usually screws more things than they fix so what we saw on Sisi is probably what will arrive to TQ (maybe 5-10% difference).
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:19:00 - [79] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id like to be as optimistic as you are. But CCP usually screws more things than they fix so what we saw on Sisi is probably what will arrive to TQ (maybe 5-10% difference). Man if you think I'm optimistic about these changes you must be a black pit of despair... -Liang
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:20:00 - [80] In the live devblog it was stated that the new missile formula would use the relationshp between target sig radius and target speed. Now, that could mean just about anything, but I'm expecting it to mean that that an ABing shig will see a substantial reduction in damage, thanks to highish speed and small sig, while a MWDing ship will see similar reduction, thanks to high speed and largish sig. Whatever it is, it's gotta be better than the current broken system, where ABs prevent no damage and the explosion velocity falloff cliff is an invitation to nano.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.10 17:22:00 - [81] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id like to be as optimistic as you are. But CCP usually screws more things than they fix so what we saw on Sisi is probably what will arrive to TQ (maybe 5-10% difference). Man if you think I'm optimistic about these changes you must be a black pit of despair... -Liang I just take it for granted they will screw something up.
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.10.11 19:29:00 - [82] a domi with 3 ECCM + Heat on them still couldn't lock down a falcon
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 19:59:00 - [83] Originally by: fightnkill a domi with 3 ECCM + Heat on them still couldn't lock down a falcon ECCM isn't a guarantee of invulnerability to ECM. Not even 3 of them. -Liang --
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 20:39:00 - [84] Originally by: Liang Nuren ECCM isn't a guarantee of invulnerability to ECM. Not even 3 of them. -Liang To be fair, when you put it that way ECM isn't a guarentee of invulnerabillity either. Even when you have 5 of the best ECM. It is luck based after all. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 20:45:00 - [85] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Liang Nuren ECCM isn't a guarantee of invulnerability to ECM. Not even 3 of them. -Liang To be fair, when you put it that way ECM isn't a guarentee of invulnerabillity either. Even when you have 5 of the best ECM. It is luck based after all. I never disagreed... but I've seen ECCM work, and work well. I deliberately took a Rupture into the jaws of an Ishtar/Falcon combo and damn near killed the Ishtar with only a sensor backup array. I'd have have almost certainly killed the Ishtar with an overloaded ECCM (nevermind 3 of them and with the much higher natural sensor strength of a domi!). -Liang --
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:13:00 - [86] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Falcons are going to be even more of a hassle after the speed nerf. There simply are not many good counters to a 240km operating racial fitted falcon except burning for it or using the same tactic back at it. Slower ship speeds boosts falcons, you cant deny it. It is not going to be harder to fly a falcon after speed nerf, it is going to be EASIER and you cant argue against that. Well you can just grab a random PvE cruiseraven pilot and have him fit for range. Then bring him along as a falconbuster Waves of 250 km range cruise missiles every 8 secs will scare off or kill a falcon pretty fast. "I dont need facts when I have the truth"
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:15:00 - [87] Originally by: Hyveres Well you can just grab a random PvE cruiseraven pilot and have him fit for range. Then bring him along as a falconbuster Waves of 250 km range cruise missiles every 8 secs will scare off or kill a falcon pretty fast. Its far better to armor tank it, honestly. Then you can take advantage of armor RR and fit 2x SB, 2x ECCM in the mids. -Liang --
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:17:00 - [88] or you can put that caldari pilot in ya know, a falcon. How to Fail at Eve
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:22:00 - [89] Edited by: Hyveres on 11/10/2008 21:23:18 Originally by: Rajere or you can put that caldari pilot in ya know, a falcon. Means getting one that has the skillset to fly a falcon. The majority of caldari carebears have the missileskills to do a 250 km range cruiseraven for gang use. They dont have the skillset for a falcon .. at least not in my experience. In simple terms the game is flowing over with ravenpilots that have decent/good missile skills. Falconpilots who are able to do the job well are quite a bit rarer. Heck finding someone who can do 250 km range raven with T2 cruise is like picking a random dude off the street it seems :) "I dont need facts when I have the truth"
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:23:00 - [90] Originally by: Rajere or you can put that caldari pilot in ya know, a falcon. You can look to the last PVP tournament for an object example of how a gang fares with too many 'falcons'. -Liang --
Grim Peeper K. M. A. Enterprise Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.10.12 20:18:00 - [91] Originally by: Deathhawk i say PILGRIM!! :D and i am always right so you would use the severely gimped, under bonused, worse slotted version of the curse just because..it looks cooler eyy? and 1 more thing. Do you know what really gets on my nerves? When you cant tell a sig from a post.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.12 20:19:00 - [92] Originally by: Grim Peeper Originally by: Deathhawk i say PILGRIM!! :D and i am always right so you would use the severely gimped, under bonused, worse slotted version of the curse just because..it looks cooler eyy? The thing about it is that web range is no longer death... which means the old Pilgrim should have some chance of taking out turret BS's after the speed patch. I know people that tried it on test and said it worked remarkably well.... -Liang --
Zao Jin	Posted - 2008.10.14 07:14:00 - [93] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:37:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 05:31:54 I belive in the changes. What can I say. Imo, what they are doing and explained sounds pretty reasonable and good. Speed is an issue and it needs a pretty tough change to fix. Not really. 1) Nerf polycarbons back into line with all other rigs, so the rig is weaker than the T2 module. 2) Nerf Snakes and other implants so the gap between "obscenely rich ebayer" and plain T2 is the same as the gap for all other ships. 3) Fix precision heavy missile velocity so they do non-zero damage to nano ships. Problem solved. The rest of the game is balanced just fine once the high-end nano setups are removed. The fact that CCP has ignored vast amounts of player feedback supporting similar ideas in favor of proceeding with the massive overkill nerf has killed any faith I had in their ability to balance this game properly. EvE isn't about a balanced game. It's about anticipating the next big thing after the most recent ridiculous nerf. I'm sure that's not what the Dev Team wants, but that's the result of their antics. I'm a two weeks from Amarr BS V. Viva la Pulse Laser.
Zao Jin	Posted - 2008.10.14 07:27:00 - [94] Originally by: fightnkill a domi with 3 ECCM + Heat on them still couldn't lock down a falcon And that's the problem. Don't nerf ECM, and no need to nerf Falcon. Just boost ECCM so that when you invest the midslot, there's actually a payoff. :)
MenanceWhite Amarr Red Light Navy	Posted - 2008.10.14 08:19:00 - [95] Falcon. Geddeon and drake looking hot too. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:44:00 - [96] Quote: You can look to the last PVP tournament for an object example of how a gang fares with too many 'falcons'. -Liang Uh, I was in the last PVP tournament, and I can't recall a single falcon being fielded. Rooks sure, a comedy triple scorp setup, metric ton of Griffins, we (along with 1 or 2 others IIRC) even fielded a Kitsune (<3 EAFs, awesome tourney ships). Don't remember any falcons though. I could be wrong, I didn't really watch all of the matches, only the matches in my group, then the matches of opponents we went up against on the final day, quarter finals, etc. Oh plus I watched the replays of our own matches, of course :p How to Fail at Eve
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:53:00 - [97] Originally by: Rajere Uh, I was in the last PVP tournament, and I can't recall a single falcon being fielded. Rooks sure, a comedy triple scorp setup, metric ton of Griffins, we (along with 1 or 2 others IIRC) even fielded a Kitsune (<3 EAFs, awesome tourney ships). Don't remember any falcons though. I could be wrong, I didn't really watch all of the matches, only the matches in my group, then the matches of opponents we went up against on the final day, quarter finals, etc. Oh plus I watched the replays of our own matches, of course :p Heh, that's why 'falcons' was in quotes... in reality, there were 2 teams of 10 blackbirds fielded on the assumption that nobody would ever be able to lock. Simple answer? Both lost, and IIRC, they didn't score any kills. It simply isn't as easy as it sounds to keep everyone jammed as the number of ECM ships goes up. :) -Liang --
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp. Methods of Mayhem Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 20:14:00 - [98] Falcons are better as a suprise. Now everyone expects them. Missiles hit fast moving ships for 0 DPS. They can't nerf missiles as I understand the term. Adjust them, of course. Missiles do generally poor DPS compared to other weapon systems. I have not heard anyone say they are going to reduce the DPS of missiles. Therefore the missile user will be able to hit a larger selection of targets, and do about the same DPS. This disqualifies Caldari from PvP how?
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:30:00 - [99] Edited by: Rajere on 14/10/2008 22:32:12 Quote: Heh, that's why 'falcons' was in quotes... in reality, there were 2 teams of 10 blackbirds fielded on the assumption that nobody would ever be able to lock. Simple answer? Both lost, and IIRC, they didn't score any kills. It simply isn't as easy as it sounds to keep everyone jammed as the number of ECM ships goes up. :) -Liang I only recall the BRUCE match when they fielded 10 BBs as (I hope) a comedy setup tribute to SpiralJunkie. Even in a Comedy setup they could have easily won that match had their FC not been incompetent/had actually taken it seriously, whichever is applicable. Considering the /mindboggle of their setups for their previous matches and their performance up to that point, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they were intentionally trying to not kill anything for the lulz, giving MC an easy win for morale (MC's performance had been abysmal til that point). Perhaps they felt guilty after denying points to PL and others in their group all tourney with benny hilling ***gotry. There's all of zero correlation between the performance of 10 blackbird comedy teams in the tournament, and the effectiveness of stacking multiple ecm ships and bringing more jammers than you have targets to use them on. I'm actually dissappointed that you'd even suggest a connection between the fail tourney teams and actual tq efficiency. We may not always agree but I can recognize the validity of your logic most of the time, and I figured you were better than this. Unless of course you're just trolling me, in which case you have succeeded. How to Fail at Eve
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:38:00 - [100] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/10/2008 22:39:53 Originally by: Rajere I only recall the BRUCE match when they fielded 10 BBs as (I hope) a comedy setup tribute to SpiralJunkie. Even in a Comedy setup they could have easily won that match had their FC not been incompetent/had actually taken it seriously, whichever is applicable. Considering the /mindboggle of their setups for their previous matches and their performance up to that point, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they were intentionally trying to not kill anything for the lulz, giving MC an easy win for morale (MC's performance had been abysmal til that point). Perhaps they felt guilty after denying points to PL and others in their group all tourney with benny hilling **gotry. There's all of zero correlation between the performance of 10 blackbird comedy teams in the tournament, and the effectiveness of stacking multiple ecm ships and bringing more jammers than you have targets to use them on. I'm actually dissappointed that you'd even suggest a connection between the fail tourney teams and actual tq efficiency. We may not always agree but I can recognize the validity of your logic most of the time, and I figured you were better than this. Unless of course you're just trolling me, in which case you have succeeded. There were two teams that did it. The second time it happened, it was a fairly decent match. The problem comes down to a matter of just ONE* person becoming unjammed and the resulting unraveling. It is not a viable mechanic, and there is a maximum gang saturation point with ECM ships. It is NOT easy to keep that many people reliably jammed - I've seen it over and over again from the PVP tournament to 30v30 clashes in 0.0. -Liang Ed: **** it, you're obviously right. Please lets nerf ECM, Damps, TDs, and TPs out of Eve. And Blasters, because they have high DPS. Not that I particularly care what becomes of Eve anymore. --
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:44:00 - [101] All you're saying is "10 blackbirds is not an invincible tournament setup that is guranteed to beat any other setup." Yeah, we know that, that was never implied. you said: Quote: You can look to the last PVP tournament for an object example of how a gang fares with too many 'falcons'. -Liang Which is a crock. There is no translation from effectiveness of 10 blackbird (AND ONLY 10 blackbird) tournament team and their performance in a structured environment with known variables, and the effectiveness of actual pvp gangs on tranquility with an unpredictable number of variables, who happen to bring +X falcons more than they usually do. There is absolutely no connection between the two, whatsoever, in any possible context. period. How to Fail at Eve
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:07:00 - [102] Originally by: Rajere Which is a crock. There is no translation from effectiveness of 10 blackbird (AND ONLY 10 blackbird) tournament team and their performance in a structured environment with known variables, and the effectiveness of actual pvp gangs on tranquility with an unpredictable number of variables, who happen to bring +X falcons more than they usually do. There is absolutely no connection between the two, whatsoever, in any possible context. period. You're right oh my master. How could I doubt your infinite wisdome /bows and sc****s in homage -Liang -- Find me on Iron Rock in Warhammer. The name is obvious. -Liang
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Shadow.	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:17:00 - [103] Originally by: Varus Riaz Missile boats, but I predict they aren't the next thing to be whined about until they get nerfed into the ground. The next thing to be nerfed into the ground will be cloaking ships. I tend to like my cloak very much. Do not want nerf thank you. /me pats cloaking hurricane/rapier/typhoon
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.15 06:30:00 - [104] Ah I see, thats much better than just admitting you were wrong or that perhaps you misspoke? Basically you said "this is what happens when a gang brings too many 'falcons'" but what you actually meant was "this is what happens when a gang brings too little of everything else" minor quibble, it's a shame you won't acknowledge it. How to Fail at Eve
fivetide humidyear Gallente EXCESS10N	Posted - 2008.10.15 08:36:00 - [105] neut dominix, depends on what happens to missiles but remote rep/neut typhoons and rokhs and anything with pulse lasers (harby, abso, zealot, abaddon, geddon), curse as you'll be the only one with cap. the changes to inertia and mass on sisi are the funniest i've seen in 3 yeasr of eve, makes absolutely no sense at all.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:43:00 - [106] Originally by: Rajere Ah I see, thats much better than just admitting you were wrong or that perhaps you misspoke? Basically you said "this is what happens when a gang brings too many 'falcons'" but what you actually meant was "this is what happens when a gang brings too little of everything else" minor quibble, it's a shame you won't acknowledge it. They're logically equivalent you know. More of one means less of another - and there's a point of diminishing returns as far as ECM goes if for no other reason than coordination of your forces. That was the entire point I made, and the entire reason I made it. I'd ask you to stop being an ass but that is apparently like asking water to stop being wet. -Liang -- Liang/Vanesca - Iron Rock@WAR -Liang
acs shadow and flame Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 20:45:00 - [107] Originally by: jerrard iceni In no particular order... falcon,raven & arazu. Yes! I feel the Arazu climbing on the green side of the killboards.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.19 23:15:00 - [108] 'Nerf dogs, get yo nerf dogs here' 'Catch em whilst they're hot' 'Nerf dogs and whine $2.98' Do your best to nerf a ship before it sees the limelight. Feel like you make a difference. Pretend that CCP listen to you. Post in a nerf thread... __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________

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