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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.10.25 17:32:00 -
[4981]
Edited by: Joey Meow on 25/10/2008 17:34:14
Originally by: Rasik Argimater (...continued, but don't know how to make the numbered list thingie pick up at 10)
- CCP first claimed this was a bug. That was a blatant lie, as it was obviously part of their lure to draw lapsed subscribers back into Eve.
- Then CCP said it was kind of an unintentional thing that they had never gotten around to blocking.
- Then they tried to claim lack of responsibility for unsubbed training being documented in the Player Guides.
- Then finally, in the last excuse for a live deblog, they admitted the change was made "for business reasons."
- "Business reasons" means they stupidly thought they could get more money by blocking unsubbed training. They completely lost sight of why this feature was in the game to begin with, and completely miscalculated the effect of blocking it.
- Next they may forget why chars, training and possessions (stuff) of inactive accounts remain in place for at least six months. That would be a hoot... first, cut off the incentive for lapsed accounts to resubscribe, then cut off all the investment ppl have if their account remains inactive for, say, 30 days. I'd love that. It would certainly settle the whole issue of whether or not to play Eve at all, for me, once and for all.
- The executive(s) who decided this "for business reasons" should become unemployed. But they won't. Torfi Frans should be fired. But he won't. T20 should have been fired but he still works for CCP. I guess they never fire anyone. Must be an Icelandic clannish "us against the world" kind of thing.
- The statements in this thread and the previous, inexplicably locked one by ppl saying they are quitting or consolidating and reducing their accounts, are much more believable than the typical emoragequit posts at other times. This is simply because this nerf changes the economics of having multiple accounts, especially in the common case of not having enough computer and monitors to run them all at the same time (as I can). It also removes a powerful incentive to resubscribe for anyone whose account lapses for any reason whatsoever.
- Since we cannot know the mix of 60d GTCs, 30 or more day CC cycles or other forms of payment, it's difficult to predict just when the greatest effect of account cancelations will hit. My guess is 2-4 weeks from Oct 15, with effects continuing but tapering off during the entire following year.
- The longer CCP tries to stonewall this, the more people will become enraged, and the more enraged people will become.
- I've already made up my mind, and with a reduction from nine paid accounts to 2, 3, maybe 4, I'm probably more than making up for a few of the fanbois who seem to like whatever game breaker du jour CCP shoves up their rears.
- I don't think this will quite kill off Eve, but if it does, I will not shed any tears. CCP has created such an unpleasant flavor surrounding the game that I don't enjoy any aspect of it anymore.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
We'd reconsider if 1 person quit and the argument he made was valid. We wouldn't if 25% quit and there was no logical argument behind it. As I've said, we do listen quite extensively to our community when doing balancing, it's not the amount of feedback we get but the quality.
Just so it is all on one page... by the way, Jinx Barker got banned for suggesting that CCP fire torfifrans .
Lets see if CCP actually listens to a good argument, shall we?
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Cassius Hawkeye
Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.25 17:37:00 -
[4982]
Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 25/10/2008 17:39:04 *Intermission*
Just poasting to say I fully support the removal of ghost training. 'Free' time isn't fair to those that pay continuously to train ALTS, and LONG SKILLS.
*continue whining now*
Ty! |
Voxis
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Posted - 2008.10.25 17:46:00 -
[4983]
Originally by: Cassius Hawkeye
*Intermission*
Just poasting to say I fully support the removal of ghost training. 'Free' time isn't fair to those that pay continuously to train ALTS, and LONG SKILLS.
*continue whining now*
Ty!
What do you do for a living? Just curious, thats all.
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James Marshalll
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.25 18:05:00 -
[4984]
Edited by: James Marshalll on 25/10/2008 18:06:45 Edited by: James Marshalll on 25/10/2008 18:05:26
Originally by: Cassius Hawkeye Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 25/10/2008 17:39:04 *Intermission*
Just poasting to say I fully support the removal of ghost training. 'Free' time isn't fair to those that pay continuously to train ALTS, and LONG SKILLS.
*continue whining now*
Ty!
Neither was playing the game normally to try and get t2 bpo's while your corp was getting them for free, or the fact your corp/alliance mates would get ships back lost in grid lock fleet fights, while others from your "enemies" didn't.
I support the removal of BoB as an alliance, Reikoku as a corp, and the CCP GM team to be off shore, out of company employees with no ties to the game, or I want a refund for all the unfair playtime I had to PAY for while CCP was giving you free legs up on the rest of the eve populace.
The LAST alliance who has "JACK S***" to say about "fairness" is your band of scrubs who only cry "fair" when it fits you since the majority of your "core" players used and abused the system in more ways then one for the last 4 years.
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Talsha Talamar
Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.10.25 18:21:00 -
[4985]
Originally by: Cassius Hawkeye Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 25/10/2008 17:39:04 *Intermission* [...] *continue whining now* Ty!
Funny how a good share of posts against this change offer reasonable arguments, seems to be written by people able to form and formulate their own opinions, while the vaste majority for the post either are oneliner like the above, or simply repeat mindless mantras.
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Ra Vhim
Black Bag Ops
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Posted - 2008.10.25 18:41:00 -
[4986]
Originally by: Joey Meow
Just so it is all on one page... by the way, Jinx Barker got banned for suggesting that CCP fire torfifrans . Maybe edit that out, since it is now considered a personal attack to ask for a developer to be fired, or their resignation, I saw them delete a post asking Zulupark to resign.
That should not surprise anyone really. That CCP panics, refuse to respond on the forum, swings the ban hammer and locking threads right left and centre is pretty much how they hope to contain things that makes the players really upset. Sooner or later things calm down and CCP believe the problem is over, while in reality people instead lose trust in CCP and give up trying to get answers from them, which is the real problem.
I don’t care if Ghost Training is disabled or not, but I do care how they deal with the situation. If anything makes me end my accounts then it is because I don’t have trust in CCP (or possibly that the game change in a direction I really don’t like). This whole unnecessary situation is centred around how CCP dealt with it, and now they choose not to deal with it by trying to ignore it away. It really annoys me. It feels like it is more likely that I can get the Pope to explain and react to this then CCP.
Anyway. I will prolly resub when my accounts goes inactive, but I will not recommend Eve to anyone I know. If I lose trust in CCP it feel like I would ask too much if I tell friends to trust them. CCP started this ****storm, they will have to navigate through it themselves. It’s pretty clear by now that they want it that way, it isn’t exactly like they are trying to open up a dialogue with the community and try to find a solution to peoples’ concerns.
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Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.10.25 19:33:00 -
[4987]
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Regarding "Ghost Training"
Ghost training: I think we could have handled the original announcement better, I completely agree with that, and we have implemented procedures to make sure that doesn't happen again. What is stated in t0rfifrans's blog however is something that we 100% stand by.
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Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.25 19:56:00 -
[4988]
Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Regarding "Ghost Training"
Ghost training: I think we could have handled the original announcement better, I completely agree with that, and we have implemented procedures to make sure that doesn't happen again. What is stated in t0rfifrans's blog however is something that we 100% stand by.
And I hope that the cancellation threats/promises are something that many of the player base 100% stand by too.
For the record, I support Jinx Barker 100% too, and I don't really care if CCP can't accept the opinions. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.10.25 20:12:00 -
[4989]
I support Jinx too and its funny that theyre choosing to ban ppl over saying ppl need to be fired (like whoever came up with this idea) when it was well ok to say it about t20 when that went down. ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility look at that |
WakyWooky
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Posted - 2008.10.25 21:04:00 -
[4990]
Just so it is all on one page... by the way, Jinx Barker got banned for suggesting that CCP fire torfifrans . Maybe edit that out, since it is now considered a personal attack to ask for a developer to be fired, or their resignation, I saw them delete a post asking Zulupark to resign.
IF THAT TRU ITS JUST LAME
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Corbin Swift
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Posted - 2008.10.25 21:06:00 -
[4991]
Originally by: Squirrrel
And I hope that the cancellation threats/promises are something that many of the player base 100% stand by too.
200% dude. I'm 100% canceling my subscriptions, it's already done. I'm also going to boycott World of Darkness due to their attitude to players/customers. They're spending all their time and our money designing f**king costumes for the avatars when there's loads of critical bugs and important missing features in the game. BPO/BPC display, broken COSMOS missions, containers that forget their settings, inabilty to search containers and cargoholds remotely, skill queues, jump planner... CCP can survive by gnawing on whalebones for all I care. The competition is gonna blow them outta the water in a couple of years.
Corbin
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cptwooks
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Posted - 2008.10.25 23:48:00 -
[4992]
Subs since Ghost Training: We usually don't disclose information like that but it was in the hundreds.
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Rasik Argimater
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Posted - 2008.10.26 00:16:00 -
[4993]
Originally by: Joey Meow Just so it is all on one page... by the way, Jinx Barker got banned for suggesting that CCP fire torfifrans . Maybe edit that out, since it is now considered a personal attack to ask for a developer to be fired, or their resignation, I saw them delete a post asking Zulupark to resign.
Lets see if CCP actually listens to a good argument, shall we?
My two lengthy enumerated posts were actually much milder than much of what I have posted on this subject. If they choose to ban me, either from the forums or from the game, I can deal with that.
What is at stake in getting banned is the last few hundred dollars per year I plan to continue paying them even if they don't backtrack on the unsubbed training issue. If they ever ban me, for any reason whatsoever, they will lose the remainder of my subscription money.
Before they nerfed unsubbed training they were getting $1,620 from me on an annualized basis. At this moment four of my accounts have expired and not been reactivated, so they are losing $720 on an annualized basis. My other accounts expire between Sep 29 and Nov 21. If CCP continues to stonewall and doesn't reverse the unsubbed training nerf, I plan to average somewhere between two and four subs active throughout the year, so they will lose between $900 and $1260 per year. If they really want to lose the entire $1,620 per year all they have to do is something really stupid like banning me. Then instead of posting on the Eve forums I will post on every MMOG-related forum in the known universe. Oh yeah... that might even energize me to put some good forum software up and create an uncensored alternative to CCP's forums. Anyone can do that for a pittance using hosting services, but I also have my own servers and lots of experience creating internet presences for myself and for businesses in which I have an interest.
"Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch!"
...
"I was bred and born in the briar patch, Brer Fox. Born and bred in the briar patch."
Oh, and very kind thanks to those of you who acknowledged and agreed with my recent posts. I have noticed that a calmer, more reasoned approach has garnered more acknlowledgements than some of my earlier, shrill shrieking posted under various of my mains and alts. This is my sig? |
masty
Gallente Empyrean Ascendance
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Posted - 2008.10.26 02:27:00 -
[4994]
how can ccp not see what this honestly was? a way to entice people back to the game????
Yeah you lose interest like any normal person, set a long skill, come back and see whats better for you
i honestly dont know why they would remove a brilliant FEATURE to the gameplay when they know so many great looking MMORPG's are coming out in the near future.......... Screams stupidity at me
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Rasik Argimater
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Posted - 2008.10.26 02:55:00 -
[4995]
Just a minor point of info: yes, I run all nine of my accounts at the same time (when they're active). My PC setup:
Dell Precision 690 2 x 3.00 GHz Dual Core (total of 4 processor cores) . 64-bit support, virtualization support . 4 MB cache each . 1333 MHz Front Side Bus 8 GB ECC memory running at 533 MHz . (half is 667 but dragged down by the other half at 533) . (due to be upgraded soon to all 667 MHz memory) 80 GB SATA hard drive (due to be upgraded; I own 300+ disk drives) RD1000 removable disk drive (80GB to 500GB) 80GB USB drive 750GB USB drive EVGA GeForce 8800 GT 512 MB "Superclocked" graphics card 2 x 20" Dell LCD monitors at 1600x1200 resolution Windows XP Pro 64-bit (necessary to make use of >3 GB memory) 6 Mbit DSL with static IP 2 Mbit cable Internet with static IP
I run Eve windowed, at 1280x1024. This allows me to cascade the windows, 4 per monitor, with the last window pegged lower left on Monitor 2. In mining, all miner windows have cargo in the lower left, allowing ore drops into cargo to be visible across all windows.
I have to run Eve's Classic graphics, and Cache is set to "off."
As long as I make sure the starting memory footprint is small by killing off unnecessary background processes this computer is happy running nine Eve windows for many hours on end. My only regret is that I didn't get the 1KW model of the 690, with two 16-path PCIe slots for graphics cards. But at the time I acquired this machine I didn't know I would end up running nine Eve accounts.
I used to have some chars specialized to be miners and others to be haulers, while most also flew battlecruisers and battleships. Lately I have cross-trained most of them so my miners now fly haulers and my haulers have begun to fly Hulks.
All my miners have all mining-related skills max'd and the best mining implants, and I have both a Command Ship pilot and a Battlecruiser pilot capable of providing maximum mindlink boosts. Mining yield is 1867 per Strip II at 22 km range and 139.5 sec cycle. The only way I know of to get it any higher is the way-overpriced Michi implant.
My mining fleet usually consists of five Hulks, two expanded & rigged Iteron V haulers, the booster ship and a BS to discourage the riff-raff. This is a nearly perfect balance between mining yield and hauling capacity.
So... although I'm totally p-o'd about the unsubbed training nerf, I have no reason myself to intentionally expire any of my chars to train without using them actively in the game, unless CCP annoys me to the point at which I find it necessary to punish them financially. If I have fewer than all nine accounts active I can't mine at maximum capacity, or manufacture or research at max. Most of my chars are also trained for remote research and manuf job management, and I can easily busy all the manuf slots in an NPC station. I don't like the unsubbed training nerf because it was a nice, friendly feature that cost them nothing, and removing it makes no sense at all from CCP's standpoint of giving ppl an incentive to resubscribe.
I believe that stupid and erroneous decisions should have negative consequences. Within my own little universe I can guarantee that this nerf decision has negative consequences for CCP. I don't have to care whether I am the only one operating on this basis. I explain my basis for operating because it has worked for me to avoid severe frustration with vendors who screw up, and may work for others. The Dollars I spend with vendors are also my only truly effective weapon. I use that weapon with the same utter ruthlessness as 0.0 PvPers pop and podkill their adversaries. |
Vix633
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Posted - 2008.10.26 03:52:00 -
[4996]
Edited by: Vix633 on 26/10/2008 03:56:28 Training skills while the account is inactive will at most rid you of one or two months subscription-the player of course will subscribe again to change skills. Once the character has been trained he will be used, if not, sold and then used therefore it will be paid for every month.-or whichever payment interval the user prefers. Its not a bug, its something that made me feel okay with opening another account. Bring it back, the community hates it being gone. Have some respect for your users and for your fellow pod pilots. Dont just wait for everyone to give up and forget about this. Reverse it.
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Decimo
DEATH'S LEGION
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Posted - 2008.10.26 05:14:00 -
[4997]
Canceled my account a week ago. Albeit not entirely due to this, but since ghost training has been removed I won't have any incentive to make a 3rd coming back to this game, that's for sure. |
ReioS
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Posted - 2008.10.26 05:51:00 -
[4998]
Originally by: Vix633 Edited by: Vix633 on 26/10/2008 03:56:28 Training skills while the account is inactive will at most rid you of one or two months subscription-the player of course will subscribe again to change skills. Once the character has been trained he will be used, if not, sold and then used therefore it will be paid for every month.-or whichever payment interval the user prefers. Its not a bug, its something that made me feel okay with opening another account. Bring it back, the community hates it being gone. Have some respect for your users and for your fellow pod pilots. Dont just wait for everyone to give up and forget about this. Reverse it.
This.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.10.26 06:13:00 -
[4999]
Edited by: Richard Aiel on 26/10/2008 06:14:24
Originally by: Cassius Hawkeye Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 25/10/2008 17:39:04 *Intermission*
Just poasting to say I fully support the removal of ghost training. 'Free' time isn't fair to those that pay continuously to train ALTS, and LONG SKILLS.
*continue whining now*
Ty!
look! Devs not only play they post on alts too Oh how am I not surprised that the dev is in BoB too lol Irony |
Col Callahan
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:09:00 -
[5000]
Just stopped in to say one more eve online scandal swept neatly underneath the rug, good job, your customer support is getting better by the second.
Head lines read,"166 pages latter and developer CCP still fails."
This has been your b/tarded reporter live from CCP headquarters in fail land. |
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Haldane Fisher
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:43:00 -
[5001]
Originally by: Richard Aiel Edited by: Richard Aiel on 26/10/2008 06:14:24
Originally by: Cassius Hawkeye Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 25/10/2008 17:39:04 *Intermission*
Just poasting to say I fully support the removal of ghost training. 'Free' time isn't fair to those that pay continuously to train ALTS, and LONG SKILLS.
*continue whining now*
Ty!
look! Devs not only play they post on alts too Oh how am I not surprised that the dev is in BoB too lol Irony
It's strange that more members of bob are not crying out about this. I'm not sure if they've been told not to talk about it, what I can say is that on the bob corp forums I have access to there is 0 discussion.
As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid. And unfortunetly for Cassius...he just doesn't get it.
"Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive (in the second scenario you can't change skill training, though)." |
Farouq Rizer
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Posted - 2008.10.26 08:53:00 -
[5002]
Edited by: Farouq Rizer on 26/10/2008 08:53:33 Well my only account goes inactive in 2 weeks. Removing the Ghost training wasen't what ticked me off, it was the way CCP flatout lied and tried to reverse what they first offcialy said.
I really respected CCP for taking a risk and making such a unique and complex game sucessfull, but I just can't understand why they would change a major game mechanic 5 years later, give only a couple days notice, and give the most embarrsing reason for doing it.
If only E&B was still alive, DAM YOU EA!
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LePak Muule
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Posted - 2008.10.26 09:08:00 -
[5003]
I really do understand why everyone is up in arms about this. I myself run 3 accounts and sometimes do juggle them around if I know that I won't have time to play them all. In my opinion, CCP should introduce reduced levels of ghost training.
A. It'll be fairer to those who are still currently subscribing. (If say the ghost trained accounts were learning at 25 percent speed). B. Give subscribers who are going on hiatus something to look forward to if they genuinely need to take a break. The .25 speed training will make the time horizon for those attempting to game the system a bit more difficult...
Perhaps they should also offer the option of allowing people to purchase ghost training at 50 percent subscription fee. Where you can only train skills but not interact with the game in any other way (perhaps allowing them to forum troll still :) )
I admit that I was one of the many that rage-quitted and cancelled my accounts. To me, CCP is like that abusive spouse that you really do love and keep coming back to for more nerfs/pimp slaps. I keep cheating on CCP with other companies like Funcom+SOE+EA, but none of them has really made me fall in love...
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Gabriel Virtus
Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.26 09:40:00 -
[5004]
This whole thing has been quite eye-opening. CCP has dealt with this in a way that makes me believe that they couldn't really care less about their player base. This is quite funny considering the core player base is the only reason this game has existed for so long. It seems to me like they are just shooting themselves in the foot constantly. The only real way we can respond to this sort of behavior and attitude is to quite. I am never renewing 2 of my 3 accounts due to this nonsense. I have never used ghosttrianing before, but CCP just lost a long term customer. Companies that treat customers like this won't last long and they do not deserve to.
Frankly, anyone that just points out the EULA and says CCP can do anything they want is missing the point. No one is arguing that they cannot. They are saying that they SHOULD not and I think most of their reasons are entirely legitamate and well thought-out.
-2 accounts -GV
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Lusulpher
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 10:38:00 -
[5005]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 26/10/2008 10:45:03 If people are seriously cancelling their alts over this AND quitting, please send me your stuff...
I will continue playing and whining until skill queue is put in by CSM or whoever. This is not Central America, stay and fight for what is yours dammit.
Don't know what all this bumloving is about how alts are so needed, I get EVERYTHING done by using teamwork with other players, sometimes total strangers. I roleplay LIFE in a game! I don't have several other clones waiting to bail me out, why should that be a gamestyle?
Anything that imbalances the real world economy also better not show up in my damn gamn either, like say a myriad of economy-breaking tax loopholes and bad(greedy,selfish) decisions to acquire money and services that aren't yours...that lead to world banks failing...I'm not going to help bail you out in RL, so clean up your act ingame.
Send it to Lusulpher, post with my main, play with my main, die with my main. STFU and open contracts.
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CommanderWez
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Posted - 2008.10.26 10:58:00 -
[5006]
Edited by: CommanderWez on 26/10/2008 10:59:51
Quote: Besides, how are you being any less active at improving your character than someone with an active account? All you can do is set a single long skill training, and that requires just as much activity on your part whether you're subscribed or not. This is a poor choice of justification.
As others have suggested, this might actually have a negative net impact on your total income, as people leaving the game will no longer have the option to leave a skill going in case they decide to return later; they won't have something new to come back to. - Kazuo Ishiguro
Kazuo says it all really...
This is a bad idea, I myself have had points where I took a break from EVE for a month or two while leaving a long skill to train. When I came back I'd be able to fly a new ship - it was motivation to come back!
I'm dissapointed with you CCP, I thought you were decent...
*sighs*
Wes |
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.26 11:15:00 -
[5007]
Originally by: Lusulpher
I will continue playing and whining until skill queue is put in by CSM or whoever. This is not Central America, stay and fight for what is yours dammit.
You ever hear the saying that the pen is mightier than the sword? Quitting seems to be the only thing CCP might listen to, and I'm not being charged for trying to make my point either. In effect they are being charged as they aren't getting our money. We're just taking the power back and they themselves need to adapt or die if more people get disenchanted with them.
Originally by: Lusulpher Anything that imbalances the real world economy also better not show up in my damn gamn either, like say a myriad of economy-breaking tax loopholes and bad(greedy,selfish) decisions to acquire money and services that aren't yours...that lead to world banks failing...I'm not going to help bail you out in RL, so clean up your act ingame.
You're the one asking people for their stuff. Maybe you just roleplay a hypocrite...
Originally by: Lusulpher
STFU and open contracts.
No. Ball is yours. What you going to do with it now hotshot?
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Sandy Minge
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Posted - 2008.10.26 11:17:00 -
[5008]
Originally by: Haldane Fisher
It's strange that more members of bob are not crying out about this. I'm not sure if they've been told not to talk about it, what I can say is that on the bob corp forums I have access to there is 0 discussion.
As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid. And unfortunetly for Cassius...he just doesn't get it.
LOL, get a clue Dewd - there is a 3 page discussion on the forums with ppl disagreeing with CCPs direction!
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Tasty Bit
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2008.10.26 11:31:00 -
[5009]
Originally by: Lusulpher Edited by: Lusulpher on 26/10/2008 10:45:03 If people are seriously cancelling their alts over this AND quitting, please send me your stuff...
As an aside, can we please get a block feature for the forums? The above wasn't funny the first 50 trillion times it was used, either. |
Jevus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.26 11:36:00 -
[5010]
fyi -1 account |
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