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AltSpying 101	Posted - 2008.10.26 12:12:00 - [5011] It seems any way you look at it there is no way to return back to the status quo This 'so called' status quo was obviously not to CCPS benefit, or so thats how they saw it Questions that may (or may not :P) help CCP/player to better understand/empathise with each others situation: Was the change more a business decision than a gameplay enhancement of the game? Had anyone ever read a single forum in protest of inactive skill trainers prior to its removal? Will this change ever make it fair for new members of eve, now or at any point in the future? Does the community now feel gamplay fairness has been restored, or did you feel there was nothing to be fixed in the first place? Were CCPs feelings possibly hurt, due to increased numbers of players skilling and not actually playing/enjoying their game, or their wallets? If the point to remove this feature was to give CCP a 'fairer' amount of revenue for their services, wouldn't unsubbing accounts and a reduced active user base go against the whole point of the change? If so why are doing this?!? Oh, so you dont think its fair? There was no status quo for CCP as a business During the last Live Dev Blog, it was literally said that, it's unfair to CCP as a business (to give away things for free). This just didn't make sense, to allow players to not pay and still recieve a service from CCP (what were we thinking). Having listened to the blog, the true motive for the change seemed to be more of a business decision than one to improve gamplay. During the blog there was no mention of fairness inbalace in the game between players. When spoken of, this was soley unfair to CCP alone. CCP and eve players are losing out If even half of what I've read about members leaving because of this, they will hurt CCPs revenue. Despite the fact changes were made to make the player/CCP balance fairer. With capsuleers benefitting without paying for it. Now where's the fairness to CCP now?They didn't expect to hurt their revenue source, the players, so severely. It's a grave shame CCP/player relations have suffered such a blow. The players are losing out all over the place. New members will have to pay a premium over members who have had the privilage(?) to train a skill. All they can do is 'pay n play,' as it is with everyother MMORPG. Those that no longer have this 'free service' from CCP are re-thinking their financial situation. To take an eve break now; They now have to either exit eve and halt character growth entirely, or continue to pay to advance their characters SP while away. We did not expect this type of reaction (CCP) Now the change has been made, I have to say the way players are reacting does not seem to lend itself to CCPs business/gamplay decision. The change made to provide CCP with 'fairer' business returns, with CCP now subscribing to a 'you pay n' play' (training is playing) business model. The main uproar could be that players have not played eve online, for the last five years, regarding it as a simple 'pay n' play' game. Mainly because it has not been that at all (yes, yes, it'd neither been advertised as such either, untill now). Eve players had grown accustomed to a unique way (game feature?) to combine 'pay n' play' & 'AFK skill train' while away from the game. This of course saved some alot of money, while also increasing an incentive to return to the same eve they left. Players have already stated they come back because of either: a) their skill has leveled up b) new game improvements to try out c) they have time for eve again d) another reason A player now has a new list to choose from when their sub runs dry. Will they return because: w) no skill countdown timer on EVEMON x) they feel hurt by CCP caused by poor PR y) players leaving eve as an act of protest z) their best friend(s) left the game due to one of the above xxx
Haldane Fisher Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.26 12:30:00 - [5012] Originally by: Sandy Minge Originally by: Haldane Fisher It's strange that more members of bob are not crying out about this. I'm not sure if they've been told not to talk about it, what I can say is that on the bob corp forums I have access to there is 0 discussion. As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid. And unfortunetly for Cassius...he just doesn't get it. LOL, get a clue Dewd - there is a 3 page discussion on the forums with ppl disagreeing with CCPs direction! What part of bob corp forums do you not understand?
hopper2j2 Caldari Kazoo RnD Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.26 13:34:00 - [5013] So u guys think that stonewalling and ignoring this will make it go away. 167 pages nearly 5000 posts most of whom have alt accts. Then u have the people who don't reply in these forum but will either quit alts or quit altogether. You think doing this would not hurt u financially. 250,000 subscribers, how many of those would be alt accts? U've lost my trust in you as a company with your twisting of the truth, and the handling of the customer base. The only good job you are doing is messing up yourselves and distancing yourselves from your customer base. -6 accts from me with a lost revenue of $209.94 per 60days.
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.26 13:51:00 - [5014] Originally by: Haldane Fisher As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid. Right... T20 was the ONLY one Well good thing for me it was meant as a joke and not serious then eh? ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility look at that
Oli Robbo Gallente Galactic Defence Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.26 14:02:00 - [5015] Edited by: Oli Robbo on 26/10/2008 14:03:59 I would like to see a Representative of CCP's Management such as a Dev or likewise participate in this discussion a little more.. There are a lot of questions to be asked/answered and I feel that a mere apology/grave digging session on behalf of CCP is not enough. Count how many pages/posts there are in this discussion, then look at the ratio of CCP's involvement. Not everyone is available to sit in on the Live Dev Blogs you know.. I think this really does highlight CCP's 'great' customer service. Lets see some more real life responses from CCP in here.
Felix Tekwar	Posted - 2008.10.26 14:16:00 - [5016] Where is the problem? Here is my little counter attack strategy for this new "feature": (I hate do do this, but there is no other way). I have 4 accounts with active chars. The main account is always active. The three other accounts are alts for mining, hauling and cynos etc.. The reason i have those 3 extra accounts is (was) the ghost skill training feature. What will i do now: I'll sell one char in the bazaar - and close the account. --> Minus 1 account for CCP. I'll transfer one char to one of my other accounts - and close the empty account. --> Minus 1 account for CCP. I'll go on with 2 active accounts. CCP loses 2 paid accounts. I think many ppl will do it this way. And CCP's money making strategy won't have the calculated effect. I would prefer to go on with all my accounts - but i simply can't effort 4 persistent accounts until there is a compensation for this loss. /Felix
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.26 14:46:00 - [5017] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 26/10/2008 14:49:39 Originally by: Oli Robbo Edited by: Oli Robbo on 26/10/2008 14:03:59 I would like to see a Representative of CCP's Management such as a Dev or likewise participate in this discussion a little more.. There are a lot of questions to be asked/answered and I feel that a mere apology/grave digging session on behalf of CCP is not enough. Count how many pages/posts there are in this discussion, then look at the ratio of CCP's involvement. Not everyone is available to sit in on the Live Dev Blogs you know.. I think this really does highlight CCP's 'great' customer service. Lets see some more real life responses from CCP in here. They cant they dont give a shi-t. Its their game we just rent it and they'll do with it as they wish. They always have. Why do you think certain ppl are still working there? They dont care what we think. If we leave, more noobs that had no idea that this was ever even a feature will replace us. In fact, we'll me replaced by more noobs arriving than oldies leaving. This is why CCP cannot be arsed to care about us. If it kills the game, I still think they wouldnt care. ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility look at that
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2008.10.26 15:05:00 - [5018] so is this plugging of a "loophole" to allow skill queueing in future ? btw, I am already down to 1 account(from 3) ever since the 32% price rise in GTCs
Sandy Minge	Posted - 2008.10.26 15:37:00 - [5019] Originally by: Haldane Fisher Originally by: Sandy Minge Originally by: Haldane Fisher It's strange that more members of bob are not crying out about this. I'm not sure if they've been told not to talk about it, what I can say is that on the bob corp forums I have access to there is 0 discussion. As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid. And unfortunetly for Cassius...he just doesn't get it. LOL, get a clue Dewd - there is a 3 page discussion on the forums with ppl disagreeing with CCPs direction! What part of bob corp forums do you not understand? yeah sure pick out the raising by refering to a single corp forum while not mentioning the main forum - guess your not as informed as you want people to believe
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.10.26 16:14:00 - [5020] Originally by: Bimjo so is this plugging of a "loophole" to allow skill queueing in future ? I doubt that'll happen. It's been stated, previously by the powers that be, that they don't want people not logging in. They want you to log in for 30 seconds to change a skill every so often. I guess if people don't log in, they data about people online looks kinda lame. Then again, if one logs in for 30 seconds once a week, that doesn't exactly do much to the numbers. If they had it their way, I'm sure they'd make it that a skill only trains if you are logged in. Sitting in a station would suffice, just so long as their product appears more popular than it actually is.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.10.26 17:00:00 - [5021] Originally by: Tasty Bit I doubt that'll happen. It's been stated, previously by the powers that be, that they don't want people not logging in. They want you to log in for 30 seconds to change a skill every so often. I guess if people don't log in, they data about people online looks kinda lame. Then again, if one logs in for 30 seconds once a week, that doesn't exactly do much to the numbers. Actually I think they have been saying they don't want people to just log in to change skills. They want to force people to login, because they think you will then (or should) play.
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.26 17:09:00 - [5022] Originally by: Tasty Bit just so long as their product appears more popular than it actually is. And theres the heart of it ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility look at that
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.10.26 17:32:00 - [5023] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Posted - 2008.07.10 12:12:00 0001 Skill Queue Functionality Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue. Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed. It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. Source
Aliedora	Posted - 2008.10.26 18:32:00 - [5024] 5000. new record for thread length?
Cyrus Doul	Posted - 2008.10.26 18:33:00 - [5025] Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 26/10/2008 18:34:58 crap! you beat me to it! guess ill have to wait for 10k
Areille Amarr Black Hawk Down Syndrome	Posted - 2008.10.26 19:08:00 - [5026] i cancelled all accounts... so thats -2 for ccp. \o/ but tbh the ghost training change isnt my only reason for quiting. It's just the icing on the sh*tcake that ccp has given us recently. :(
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.26 20:19:00 - [5027] Originally by: Aliedora 5000. new record for thread length? 5000 is nothing lol http://forums.hellgatelondon.com/showthread.php?t=106599&page=1479 14k and counting and I bet there are threads even larger than that in the interwebs
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.10.26 21:54:00 - [5028] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: Aliedora 5000. new record for thread length? 5000 is nothing lol http://forums.hellgatelondon.com/showthread.php?t=106599&page=1479 14k and counting and I bet there are threads even larger than that in the interwebs Yeah just the difference is, that one is just for "lols" and runs since the 11.07.08. So they needed over 3 month for 14k, this issue raged in 2 weeks to 5k.
Haldane Fisher Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.26 22:13:00 - [5029] Originally by: Sandy Minge Edited by: Sandy Minge on 26/10/2008 15:48:25 Originally by: Haldane Fisher Originally by: Sandy Minge Originally by: Haldane Fisher It's strange that more members of bob are not crying out about this. I'm not sure if they've been told not to talk about it, what I can say is that on the bob corp forums I have access to there is 0 discussion. As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid. And unfortunetly for Cassius...he just doesn't get it. LOL, get a clue Dewd - there is a 3 page discussion on the forums with ppl disagreeing with CCPs direction! What part of bob corp forums do you not understand? yeah sure pick out the raisin by refering to a single corp forum while not mentioning the main forum - guess your not as informed as you want people to believe sigh The only bob members in this and the last thread that have posted with thier main (to my knowledge) are all very much pro CCP here. I merely pointed this out. Now you could assume that since most bob members have already trained the long skills, the lack of ghosting isn't really a big loss. You could also say that the overwhelming majority of bob genuinely feel CCP is in the right here, while the few who aren't here shouting about it don't want to rock the boat. Or you may be right in the the main bob forum is full of whine. I really don't know since my bob forum access has closed since I haven't resubbed my main account. I do know that in more than one bob corp there is no talk about it. Reason for that are anyone's guess, I just happen to find it interesting. More interesting, is that, as has been mentioned,the vast majority of those supporting ccp ar the old characters who've already done everything many times over, and new players who havent trained anything longer than cruiser V. So to see someone from bob or any other old alliance spew sycophantic drive (hi verone) its annoying. (notice I'm not a complete bob/anti-bob zealot?) (also, I've been awake for 37 hours now so be nice) "Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive (in the second scenario you can't change skill training, though)."
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.27 04:51:00 - [5030] I think its funny BoB is sticking up for CCP oh... wait
Azraeljbs	Posted - 2008.10.27 06:05:00 - [5031] So it's hit the over 5000 post mark and yet CCP has still given little in the way as a reply to this thread. There are many questions and concerns that we all have and have voiced in this thread and yet we are fed vague dodgy answers at best. So once again I ask that if you truly want to be heard spam the link to this forum every where you can...even in other games spread the word and cancel all your accounts....CCP might listen when 1/4 of their player base cancels their accounts. It's the only way they will seem to listen. I could care less if they bring the feature back at this point it's probably too late. What I do want is a dev to answer up on this forum other than to lock it, hide it, or ban someone. Give us straight answers and tell us what your plans are to deal with this. Until I see that and the announcement of an implemented solution in-game my accounts will remain closed. How can a company ignore this many people esp when at least...at least 3000 of the 5000 posts are people canceling multiple accounts. My guess is it's over 3500 accounts canceled so far, and climbing if not more.
Resincast Milk Caldari Bloodpack Logista	Posted - 2008.10.27 06:13:00 - [5032] i had one account that always active, and four ghost trained account. but this is what i have done 1. sell my character at character bazaar and close two accounts (-2) 2. transfer my character to another account and close that empty account(-1) 3. now i have 2 active account instead 5 account 4. ccp lost 3 paid account This is result of your business side decision, CCP
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2008.10.27 06:50:00 - [5033] So I finally decided that if CCP wanted my internet spaceships they could have them. -2 more accounts There was a great post on one of the corp forums I'm part of... Player 1> It's great playing EVE. I mean, the patches are completely free, unlike other games that charge you fifty bucks for the expansion. Player 2> Yeah, but that's because EVE patches don't have nearly the same level of content. I mean, have you run missions recently? When's the last time you thought "Oh, wow! That mission and/or mining trip was awesome!"? Player 1> But you get new ships during most patches! Player 2> Yeah, and what's the track record been on that? Either they obsolete an old shipclass, or they add something useless. More != new. So, CCP, I'll leave it in your hands. Now that I don't have "Ooh, a new level 5 skill" to tempt me back -- if you want my cash, then put out a patch that actually makes the game better.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Freedom From Fear Industries	Posted - 2008.10.27 08:52:00 - [5034] i'm curious exactly how ccp is going to count the accounts they've lost? if an account was in the process of "inactive training" (since that's what i've always heard it referred to, guess i wasn't hip to the term ghost); then, it's already been cancelled. so, while a few hundred may have run out in the past couple of weeks... how many more simply won't be renewed? how will it be determined how many exactly are lost? when people are mystified next year that the game's growth isn't meeting expectations? for all the people in support of this change(who seem to have never voiced their distaste of this feature all these years... guess that makes them trolls?)... offline training is also a feature this game brags about; but is not available in any other game. what happens when the real-time skill training feature is deemed a bug when offline or not actively using the account? perhaps people found flying to nowhere (in order to avoid a 10 minute log off for inactivity) are actively hunted and banned for exploiting the system? i mean, both have been advertised for literal YEARS as features unique to eve online. would you be so vocal to support that feature being declared a bug as well? IF we ignore however many people have multiple accounts and keep the characters on said accounts; then, let's think about the math involved. 1 oh they're reselling characters A (doesn't that cost $20 per character to transfer into ccp's pocket? and get how much for the months trained?), 2 they're setting 60 day skills training B(ok, they're either paying $15/month or $35/60d gtc; if you're training an inactive account, are you REALLY going to be training a skill you don't have pri/sec stats trained to a high level and have at least +4 implants on? if so, you're costing yourself time, which IS money for a toon you're going to sell.... so what skills exactly are these 60+ on hundreds of characters being sold? battleship 5 is going to be a month or less...) so a 60d gtc (2 months), 1 month skill training (1 month) = 3months for $35... how much does a 3 month CC sub cost? something like $38? how much do 6 and 12 month CC subs cost? so, someone alt training via GTC is actually paying more, PER ACCOUNT, than someone paying via 6- and 12- month blocks? how much does the account on the power of 2 offer cost? is it more money annually than $35/3month = $140/year? do you keep the power of 2 cost after the initial 6 months or does it go up, in the hopes you're hooked on this 6 month old alt account? again, i'm curious where all the threads complaining about inactive training where at these previous years; because i seem to have missed them all.
Honest Yang	Posted - 2008.10.27 09:16:00 - [5035] There goes my account buh bye.
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2008.10.27 12:58:00 - [5036] What is extra poor in all this is that if affects primarily the long time experienced players who have hit the 30-60 day skill wall after years of dedication to CCP, not the short term players. This undermines the hard core players with multiple accounts far more than others - you know the bread and butter players for CCP. Honestly, if you wanted to annoy your loyal core base then this is a good step. Now, as a lower SP char I call "unfair!" I wanted to be able to ghost train carrier V one day, while playing another char to fill the time, and now I can't, whereas apparently a lot of folks already have. Daan
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.27 13:26:00 - [5037] I dont put it past CCP at this point to buy accounts and keep them active just to make it look like theres more ppl playing than there are and to be able to claim higher sub numbers than they actually have so the ppl leaving wont influence their numbers :p ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility look at that
Lorac Caladon Caldari The Cowboy Junkies	Posted - 2008.10.27 14:31:00 - [5038] Originally by: Azraeljbs So it's hit the over 5000 post mark and yet CCP has still given little in the way as a reply to this thread. There are many questions and concerns that we all have and have voiced in this thread and yet we are fed vague dodgy answers at best. So once again I ask that if you truly want to be heard spam the link to this forum every where you can...even in other games spread the word and cancel all your accounts....CCP might listen when 1/4 of their player base cancels their accounts. It's the only way they will seem to listen. I could care less if they bring the feature back at this point it's probably too late. What I do want is a dev to answer up on this forum other than to lock it, hide it, or ban someone. Give us straight answers and tell us what your plans are to deal with this. Until I see that and the announcement of an implemented solution in-game my accounts will remain closed. How can a company ignore this many people esp when at least...at least 3000 of the 5000 posts are people canceling multiple accounts. My guess is it's over 3500 accounts canceled so far, and climbing if not more. It's ironic that, according to CCP, the reason they locked all of the other threads about "Ghost Training" was to funnel all comments to this very thread, to make it easier for them to communicate with the players (Link). Nice job on that CCP.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2008.10.27 15:19:00 - [5039] Just downloading Wow and was reading the player guide. Seem like in Wow they treat their casual players with bit of respect: Quote: Most players will be in the Normal experience tier most of the time. The Rested tier is primarily intended for players that take a day or more off from playing or are very casual with their play schedules. This has enabled us to greatly reduce the experience necessary for all players to level regardless of which rest state tier they play under. So CCP talk about fairness, but should learn a less on from Wow.
Marbith Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.27 15:21:00 - [5040] Yes it is inconvenient that you can't take a break if your finances take a hit. yes it is insensitive to the fact that this credit crisis is hitting the players as well as the company. But, the responses I'm reading on here about people having 5-6 accounts all at once really aggravates me; no wonder there are so many pirates in EVE. I'd be willing to bet one or two pirate corp.s are all alts controlled by one player. I suppose next people will want macro-mining to be legalized, or maybe doing away with the security rating system so new payers won't stand a chance. I do think the skill que would be a welcome addition, however, as would at least some ability to warp to 0 in auto pilot so it doesn't take hours in larger ships. No self-respecting minmatar would fund slave labor. Boycott ISK farmers

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