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Is there a Ten Commandments of Ship fitting?

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slingshot smith Gallente Kalgoorlie BOYZ	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:44:00 - [1] Hello, I've been playing eve for a couple of months now and I love it. Bumped into some interesting folks that have helped along the way. Life is good, it could be better. I'm the cautious type (I don't think I'm a CareBear) done my share of mining, some mission running and have been cornered into the occasional pvp. It's the later that I want to improve on (tired of getting my arse kicked!). So to that end I need a little guidance from you seasoned players. What I know is this. In the eve universe we as players are spoiled for choice and the choices we make boil down to personal preference and playing style (perhaps Race?). In fact I love this aspect of the game but I find myself (more often than not) bringing a knife to a gun fight. I'm making poor choices because I don't know what I'm looking for, I still lack the understanding of what makes a fit good. Or more importantly how to make a fit work? Is there a Ten Commandments of Ship fitting? 1. Thou shalt not mix guns..... ....perhaps a rule of thumb that I can start with? [or in pirate terms a guide-line.. ha! Jack Sparrow would be so proud.] Regards SlingShot
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:52:00 - [2] There are no commandments and there are no sure things in PvP. All you can really do is play the odds to give yourself the best possible chance of coming out on top in general. 1) DPS wins the battle - tank only staves off defeat 2) A buffer tank (where you maximize your EHP) is best for worst case scenario planning. 3) Know what you want your ship to do before you fit a single module 4) If you are going to sacrifice a module that furthers your assumed role, there had better be an INCREDIBLY good reason. 5) Know what your enemy can do, and try to keep him from doing it. 6) Always assume you're going to be pointed in the battle and realize there will be some fights you won't ever be able to run from. 7) Know what your ship can do - maximize it's utility by sticking as close to your optimal situation as possible, often truped by point 5. 8) Mobility is key - speed modules like AB and MWD probably won't give you an edge - they let you contest control of the battlespace. Always fit one or the other, and in general the MWD is your best chance of getting out alive. 9) Know the difference between a sure thing and a suicide run. Fit accordingly. 10) Never fly a ship you aren't prepared to lose the moment you undock.
Tighty Whities	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:52:00 - [3] Reserved.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:56:00 - [4] Golden Rule. Have Fun! Maybe its just me, but too many people in this game are too afraid to go boom. Now and then when I get bored I'll buy a frig or cruiser and hop into a pod with no implants... pick a random 0.0 or low-sec system and see how long i'll last. I spend no more than a few mill but it can be a lot of fun. And I get to see purdy explosions!!! (Usually my own ship.......) __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:57:00 - [5] 1) The Falcon is the LORD your God, and you shall have no other gods before Me. 2) Thou shalt fit a MWD on every non-capital PvP ship. 3) Thou shalt fly Amarr or Caldari. 4) Thou shalt fit 3x damage mods and the largest possible guns. 5) Thou shalt passive buffer tank. 6) Thou shalt not give up gank to gain tank. 7) Thou shalt not forget that PvP may happen anywhere between 0-250km. 8) Thou shalt not ignore your drone bay, even on Caldari ships. 9) Thou shalt not fly the assault frigate, stealth bomber, T1 frigate or T1 cruiser, for they are an abomination before God. 10) Thou shalt give Merin all of thy ISK.
xxWhistler Lucian Alliance Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:12:00 - [6] While I do respect Merin as a frequent poster and agree with a lot of the points he makes on the forums, I have to disagree with the bit about t1 cruisers. As a low SP player, you can definitely make a difference in a t1 cruiser, primarily because you won't be primaried. 11. Respect the fact that 1v1 does not exist (at least in 0.0 - I don't live or operate in low sec and can't comment on conditions there)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:15:00 - [7] Originally by: xxWhistler While I do respect Merin as a frequent poster and agree with a lot of the points he makes on the forums, I have to disagree with the bit about t1 cruisers. As a low SP player, you can definitely make a difference in a t1 cruiser, primarily because you won't be primaried. 11. Respect the fact that 1v1 does not exist (at least in 0.0 - I don't live or operate in low sec and can't comment on conditions there) 1v1 Exists in lowsec. Much of the time it's 1 pirate versus one clueless noob but from time to time there are legitimate 1v1 battles. For the most part though, lowsec is just a differnt place to get ganked.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:17:00 - [8] Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 05:18:39 I think Merin was sarcasm... or at least I hope so. I don't agree with any of her points. In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of people that could rip them apart and post detailed and lengthy posts on WHY her points suck... I would, But I'm lazy. And Its past my bed time (YAY for 8:00am tests!) /me grumbles something about staying up too late pressing F5 outta boredom. Edit, I agree with points 7 and 8. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Vina Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Last Wolf Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 05:18:39 I think Merin was sarcasm... or at least I hope so. I don't agree with any of her points. In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of people that could rip them apart and post detailed and lengthy posts on WHY her points suck... I would, But I'm lazy. And Its past my bed time (YAY for 8:00am tests!) /me grumbles something about staying up too late pressing F5 outta boredom. Edit, I agree with points 7 and 8. most of his points are pretty legit. passive buffer tanking is definately the way to go for most ships. ----------------------------------- my opinion is my own.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:29:00 - [10] Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 05:29:26 I can think of two very popular setups that break rules numbers 3, 4, 6 and 9. Thorax with light nuetrons and 1600mm plate Ruppy with 1600mm plate. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
xxWhistler Lucian Alliance Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:34:00 - [11] Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:35:44 Thorax with light neutrons is a 1v1 setup. If you want to maximize your utility to your gang (while recognizing that your t1 cruiser is in a word, expendable) you will fit it with its bonused medium weapons and a buffer tank. Again I have to admit that this is a gang warfare perspective - obviously - but to me, a t1 cruiser is not about survivability. If you really want the ship to last then a t1 cruiser is not what you ought to be flying.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.14 05:56:00 - [12] Edited by: Rhatar Khurin on 14/10/2008 05:57:36 Edited by: Rhatar Khurin on 14/10/2008 05:57:08 Originally by: Merin Ryskin 1) The Falcon is the LORD your God, and you shall have no other gods before Me. (er no) 2) Thou shalt fit a MWD on every non-capital PvP ship. 3) Thou shalt fly Amarr or Caldari. (lol) 4) Thou shalt fit 3x damage mods and the largest possible guns. (umm..) 5) Thou shalt passive buffer tank. (yer right) 6) Thou shalt not give up gank to gain tank. (depends) 7) Thou shalt not forget that PvP may happen anywhere between 0-250km. 8) Thou shalt not ignore your drone bay, even on Caldari ships. 9) Thou shalt not fly the assault frigate, stealth bomber, T1 frigate or T1 cruiser, for they are an abomination before God. (shut up) 10) Thou shalt give Merin all of thy ISK. I hope you're trolling, seriously
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Last Wolf Thorax with light nuetrons and 1600mm plate It was barely good in 2006, and it sure isn't any better in 2008. Even if for some bizarre reason you need to fit a 1600mm plate, the 1600mm plate/medium electron setup is infinitely better. Quote: Ruppy with 1600mm plate. It's a Rupture. Enough said. Originally by: Last Wolf Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 05:18:39 I think Merin was sarcasm... or at least I hope so. I don't agree with any of her points. In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of people that could rip them apart and post detailed and lengthy posts on WHY her points suck... I would, But I'm lazy. And Its past my bed time (YAY for 8:00am tests!) Then please do. I could use a little humor tonight! Originally by: Rhatar Khurin I hope you're trolling, seriously Well, I guess #10 wasn't entirely serious. But everything else on that list is a basic rule of PvP. Ignore it at your own risk.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:09:00 - [14] Thou shalt passive buffer tank? Do you mean buffer OR passive tank? Largest guns are not always the best. Fecks up your grid sometimes and worse tracking, and if you're talking about a domi then nonononono. AFs are getting a boost, T1 cruisers have always rocked, same with stealth bombers.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:19:00 - [15] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/10/2008 06:22:12 Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Thou shalt passive buffer tank? Do you mean buffer OR passive tank? No, I mean passive buffer. Passive, as in no active repair modules, and buffer, as in pure EHP, not passive regen like a carebear Drake. Slightly redundant, maybe, but it helps to avoid confusion with the passive carebear ships. Quote: Largest guns are not always the best. Fecks up your grid sometimes and worse tracking, and if you're talking about a domi then nonononono. Obviously the Dominix (and other drone boats) are the exception, as their primary weapon is their drones. Use a little common sense here? Quote: AFs are getting a boost A boost from complete trash to just mediocre and overpriced. Which isn't so hard, since the only place they could possibly go is up. However, the changes released so far do not do enough to make them useful ships. Quote: T1 cruisers have always rocked Not since tier-2 BCs were released and invention brought HACs down to a sane price, finally giving us a choice besides the complete trash of the Prophecy/Ferox/Cyclone or an insanely expensive 300 million ISK HAC. The only T1 cruisers even remotely worth flying (unless you're a hopeless newbie) now are the ewar cruisers, and only until you can get a recon. Quote: same with stealth bombers. "Stealth" bombers are trash, and will remain trash until either bombs get a major cost reduction, or bombers get the covert ops cloak.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:38:00 - [16] My turn to ravage the English language: 1) Thou shalt know what thou wanteth to do with thy ship and fit it accordingly. 2) Thou shalt know what thy ship can and cannot do and fly it accordingly. 3) Thou shalt not mix tanks. Tank either thy shield or thy armor (but never forget to consider fitting a damage control). 4) Thou shalt not active tank in serious PvP; learn to remote-rep. 5) Thou shalt not mix short and long range weaponry, for doing so makes thee suck at any range. 6) Thou shalt fit an MWD to every non-capital PvP ship you fit with the exception of some logistics ships and battle-industrials. 7) Thou shalt remember that gank helps thee in every combat, tank only when thou art shot at. 8) Thou shalt always fit a point if thou art planning to fight within scram range. 9) Thou shalt use ECM drones if drones aren't your main damage source, for they are OP. 10) Thou shalt break any rule in this list when thee needs to if thou really knoweth better. If thou just thinketh thou doth, thou doth not. -- Gradient forum
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Quote: T1 cruisers have always rocked Not since tier-2 BCs were released and invention brought HACs down to a sane price, finally giving us a choice besides the complete trash of the Prophecy/Ferox/Cyclone or an insanely expensive 300 million ISK HAC. The only T1 cruisers even remotely worth flying (unless you're a hopeless newbie) now are the ewar cruisers, and only until you can get a recon. So you're saying that Thorax, Rupture, Arbitrator (to a lesser extent the caracal or moa) are worthless in pvp?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin So you're saying that Thorax, Rupture, Arbitrator (to a lesser extent the caracal or moa) are worthless in pvp? That's exactly what I'm saying, with the exception of the Arbitrator (it's an ewar cruiser). The only reason to ever fly a Thorax, Rupture, Caracal or Moa in PvP is if you're a newbie who doesn't have the skills/ISK to fly anything better. And in that case, you're pretty much worthless in PvP anyway. The only way those ships are at all "useful" is in the "better than staying docked" sense, in which any non-zero dps is "useful". But I think both of us have a little common sense and know we aren't talking about being useful on the same level that a BattleBadger is "useful".
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Originally by: Merin Ryskin Quote: T1 cruisers have always rocked Not since tier-2 BCs were released and invention brought HACs down to a sane price, finally giving us a choice besides the complete trash of the Prophecy/Ferox/Cyclone or an insanely expensive 300 million ISK HAC. The only T1 cruisers even remotely worth flying (unless you're a hopeless newbie) now are the ewar cruisers, and only until you can get a recon. So you're saying that Thorax, Rupture, Arbitrator (to a lesser extent the caracal or moa) are worthless in pvp? If you can fly either of those you can fly a battlecruiser and be more useful.
abrasive soap HOMELESS. Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.10.14 07:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Rhatar Khurin So you're saying that Thorax, Rupture, Arbitrator (to a lesser extent the caracal or moa) are worthless in pvp? That's exactly what I'm saying, with the exception of the Arbitrator (it's an ewar cruiser). The only reason to ever fly a Thorax, Rupture, Caracal or Moa in PvP is if you're a newbie who doesn't have the skills/ISK to fly anything better. And in that case, you're pretty much worthless in PvP anyway. The only way those ships are at all "useful" is in the "better than staying docked" sense, in which any non-zero dps is "useful". But I think both of us have a little common sense and know we aren't talking about being useful on the same level that a BattleBadger is "useful". Caracal is actually useful for anti-interceptor stuff if you fit assault launchers with precision lights. Thorax is a decent heavy tackler but that's about the only advantage it has over the brutix. Vexor is somewhat useful for dps (700+ in gank fit)/drone support i.e. warrior 2 deployment (although its dps is destroyable). The ewar cruisers are useful, and the logistics cruisers are semi useful (surprisingly, they work well as cap booster haulers/noob logistics). Of course, the t2 versions of these ships pretty much outclass these ones in every way except price (you would never gank fit an ishtar for example, nor would you use a guardian just to haul cap boosters.)
Shereza	Posted - 2008.10.14 08:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Merin Ryskin 2) Thou shalt fit a MWD on every non-capital PvP ship. Heh. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 3) Thou shalt fly Amarr or Caldari. /me giggles. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 4) Thou shalt fit 3x damage mods and the largest possible guns. [Abaddon, Max Grid] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Originally by: Merin Ryskin 5) Thou shalt passive buffer tank. [Damnation, L5 - Armor Buffer] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defence [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump II Trimark Armor Pump II 712k EHP, almost 86k raw armor. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 6) Thou shalt not give up gank to gain tank. /me glances up. Oops. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 7) Thou shalt not forget that PvP may happen anywhere between 0-250km. But it's much more likely to not happen in the middle of that range by all accounts. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 8) Thou shalt not ignore your drone bay, even on Caldari ships. Unless you're flying any Caldari T2 cruiser except the basilisk (logistics), T2 frigate, half the T1 frigates, or the blackbird. Well, if you fly them I suppose you shouldn't ignore the 0m3 space in them when you post on the forums asking to actually have drone space on them but you might as well ignore them while you play so you don't get acid reflux. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 9) Thou shalt not fly the assault frigate, stealth bomber, T1 frigate or T1 cruiser, for they are an abomination before God. I've done missions in the caracal and moa, gone 0.0 mining in an osprey (and I even used it to provie in-mission support to corp. mates), do 1/10 complexes and L1 missions in my ishkur, went ratting in 0.0 in my nemesis, and had fun. Glad you didn't mention destroyers. Of course I tanked 4-6 angel battleships and 2-3 angel frigates in AE4 in a cormorant once so I like destroyers too. Originally by: Merin Ryskin 10) Thou shalt give Merin all of thy ISK. Um... I like owe a guy 220m isk and I've maybe a third of that. I could offer you some cookie crumbs and belly-button lint, but the crumbs are probably overly moist and the lint overly dry. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.14 08:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Merin Ryskin 1) The Falcon is the LORD your God, and you shall have no other gods before Me. 2) Thou shalt fit a MWD on every non-capital PvP ship. 3) Thou shalt fly Amarr or Caldari. 4) Thou shalt fit 3x damage mods and the largest possible guns. 5) Thou shalt passive buffer tank. 6) Thou shalt not give up gank to gain tank. 7) Thou shalt not forget that PvP may happen anywhere between 0-250km. 8) Thou shalt not ignore your drone bay, even on Caldari ships. 9) Thou shalt not fly the assault frigate, stealth bomber, T1 frigate or T1 cruiser, for they are an abomination before God. 10) Thou shalt give Merin all of thy ISK. Actually I will give thy some of my isk for this post :D Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.14 10:43:00 - [23] T1 cruisers are good for: (a) Leeroy gangs. (b) Killing and humiliating T2 cruiser pilots with high skilled+implanted T1 cruisers (being Garmon). (c) Killing other T1 cruisers (duh) / AFs / etc on the cheap. (d) Blackbird, because you didn't train Cruiser V / Recon ships yet to use a Falcon. The fact HACs do better at (b) and (c) means little given how low-sec soloing often requires the active cooperation of your victim (read: him thinking he can take you), and HACs tend to scare targets away as if they were ****ing on electrified wire. Unless, of course, you run into someone in a, say, BC, sitting there in a easily scannable position and peacefully ratting in top belt with drones out Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.14 11:21:00 - [24] Quote: The fact HACs do better at (b) and (c) means little given how low-sec soloing often requires the active cooperation of your victim (read: him thinking he can take you), and HACs tend to scare targets away as if they were ****ing on electrified wire. The importance of this cannot be overstated.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Originally by: Merin Ryskin Quote: T1 cruisers have always rocked Not since tier-2 BCs were released and invention brought HACs down to a sane price, finally giving us a choice besides the complete trash of the Prophecy/Ferox/Cyclone or an insanely expensive 300 million ISK HAC. The only T1 cruisers even remotely worth flying (unless you're a hopeless newbie) now are the ewar cruisers, and only until you can get a recon. So you're saying that Thorax, Rupture, Arbitrator (to a lesser extent the caracal or moa) are worthless in pvp? If you can fly either of those you can fly a battlecruiser do nearly the same damage and be much slower. That's more like it! Alley oop! -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:47:00 - [26] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 14/10/2008 12:48:07 Originally by: Corwain If you can fly either of those you can fly a battlecruiser do nearly the same damage and be much slower. Idk. Competently setup (and top skilled of course) Harbringer/Myrmidon/Brutix/Hurricane do about 750+ DPS max, competently setup Drake about 650 DPS. Try as I might, I cannot get a T1 cruiser to even come close to matching it's BC counterpart. Do you have any clue what you're talking about? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:50:00 - [27] I can do about 600dps with a Thorax mate. Less effective HP, but much much faster. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Corwain I can do about 600dps with a Thorax mate. Less effective HP, but much much faster. Myrmidon does about 800-ish without too much hassle, and while having about 46K EHP to boot. In the end, BCs win when it comes to DPS and EHP, cruisers are merely cheaper and somewhat faster. The real win point about BCs is that they give you a much wider target selection on the whole then cruisers. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:17:00 - [29] In a gang fight nowadays if you're getting shot you're gonna die in seconds anyways. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Corwain In a gang fight nowadays if you're getting shot you're gonna die in seconds anyways. Thats only if you are : - In a big blob fight - Flying a blaster ship - Doing it wrong.

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