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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:20:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Corwain
In a gang fight nowadays if you're getting shot you're gonna die in seconds anyways.
You know that's a non-argument.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Corwain
Gallente
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:24:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Corwain
In a gang fight nowadays if you're getting shot you're gonna die in seconds anyways.
Thats only if you are :
- In a big blob fight
- Flying a blaster ship
- Doing it wrong.
If you consider a big blob fight to be more than 5 people.
Okay, so you have a small gang, say...7 thorax 3 blackbird. All the ships have a MWD so can run around at about 1600m/s assuming good skills. (That's ~50% faster than a gang of Brutix can MWD btw)
So they each do 650dps (I belive that's what the last Thorax setup I flew did.)
So each thorax does about as much damage as half a Neutron 'Thron. Now, how fast do you think ANYTHING's gonna last with 3 Neutron throns shooting it at their optimal? From experience I can tell you, unless you're a capital you can measure your lifespan is SECONDS.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:32:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Corwain
In a gang fight nowadays if you're getting shot you're gonna die in seconds anyways.
Thats only if you are :
- In a big blob fight
- Flying a blaster ship
- Doing it wrong.
If you consider a big blob fight to be more than 5 people.
Okay, so you have a small gang, say...7 thorax 3 blackbird. All the ships have a MWD so can run around at about 1600m/s assuming good skills. (That's ~50% faster than a gang of Brutix can MWD btw)
So they each do 650dps (I belive that's what the last Thorax setup I flew did.)
So each thorax does about as much damage as half a Neutron 'Thron. Now, how fast do you think ANYTHING's gonna last with 3 Neutron throns shooting it at their optimal? From experience I can tell you, unless you're a capital you can measure your lifespan is SECONDS.
So is it 5 or 10 people? Make up your mind perhaps?
In a gangfight many of those thoraxes would be webbed, perhaps jammed. You would never get "instahit" by all of them. If they are all gankfit its likely they would start to pop pretty quickly too. Its not hard to survive such a gang through various mechanics such as rr-reps, jumping through a gate, docking etc.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:48:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 14/10/2008 13:48:55
Originally by: Corwain
If you consider a big blob fight to be more than 5 people.
Okay, so you have a small gang, say...7 thorax 3 blackbird. All the ships have a MWD so can run around at about 1600m/s assuming good skills. (That's ~50% faster than a gang of Brutix can MWD btw)
So they each do 650dps (I belive that's what the last Thorax setup I flew did.)
So each thorax does about as much damage as half a Neutron 'Thron. Now, how fast do you think ANYTHING's gonna last with 3 Neutron throns shooting it at their optimal? From experience I can tell you, unless you're a capital you can measure your lifespan is SECONDS.
(a) 10 people is not such a small gang.
(b) Your Thoraxes take about 1-2 seconds to initiate fire on new primary / to get drones start hitting, provided all targets are clumped together at 0 and no hostile EW disabling parts of your DPS (which works much better for removing ships with high DPS and low EHP when considering mixed gangs). They deal combined DPS of 4500. It takes about 11-14 seconds per average BC to get a kill.
(c) Let's assume your 7 Thorax + 3 BB gang are fighting 5 BCs + 3 blackbirds neutralizing your blackbirds. Let's (correctly) assume the average BC has 46.000 EHP and 800 DPS, while the Thorax has 16.000 EHP and 650 DPS.
It means your gang of Thoraxes requires 11 seconds for the first kill (doing a combined 4550 DPS) - while the 5 BCs (doing a combined 4000 DPS) require 4 seconds (3+1 for drones/etc to respond) to score each kill.
To give a run-down of what happens.
T(0): Fighting commences.
T(4): Thorax 1 explodes, BC 1 has 32.5K EHP left.
T(8): Thorax 2 explodes, BC 1 has 16.9K EHP left.
T(12): Thorax 3 explodes, BC 1 has 3.9K EHP left.
T(13): BC 1 explodes, BCs start on Thorax 4, Thoraxes start on BC 2.
T(18): Thorax 4 explodes, BC 2 has 35.6K EHP left.
T(24): Thorax 5 explodes, BC 2 has 23.9K EHP left.
T(30): Thorax 6 explodes, BC 2 has 16.1K EHP left.
T(36): Thorax 7 explodes. Game over. BC 2 still has 12.2K EHP left.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Corwain
Gallente
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:54:00 -
[35]
Yeah, except you're not accounting for why it's better to fly Thorax...your slow gang of BC with Ewar support would never in a thousand years catch my gang of Thorax w/ Ewar support, and if I was gonna engage your gang I'd bring an equal number of BS instead of cruisers. In which case I WOULD catch you cause you're just as slow as I am.
Now, you wouldn't catch my gang of cruisers with your gang of BCs but we'd sure as hell jump on your BCs one by one as they got spread of since they're so slow. If you have a disciplined gang and don't spread out you'll just go even slower and be even LESS effective.
I'm done being trolled here, have a nice day.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 14:00:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Corwain
and if I was gonna engage your gang I'd bring an equal number of BS instead of cruisers. In which case I WOULD catch you cause you're just as slow as I am.
Which means you'd never get a fight out of us, because there is no way you'll catch a BC gang with a BS gang unless you're flying failboat nano BS 
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.10.14 14:25:00 -
[37]
I know what you're saying, but you can't just rule out cruisers being viable like that. (i'm sure Garmon would also disagree)
Fine, their purpose in a gang could be more effective mostly in a BC. But i'd still fly a thorax over a brutix anyday.
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August Guns
Minmatar
Infinite ISK
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:36:00 -
[38]
There aren't 10 PVP commandmants, there are 2.
1- Thou shalt fit a MWD
2- YOU HAD BETTER FIT A DAMNED MWD
August Guns |
Shereza
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: August Guns
There aren't 10 PVP commandmants, there are 2.
1- Thou shalt fit a MWD
2- YOU HAD BETTER FIT A DAMNED MWD
Gonna be so nice if/when the nano-nerf helps people to stop believing that that's true.
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:45:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Shereza
Originally by: August Guns
There aren't 10 PVP commandmants, there are 2.
1- Thou shalt fit a MWD
2- YOU HAD BETTER FIT A DAMNED MWD
Gonna be so nice if/when the nano-nerf helps people to stop believing that that's true.
It will be just as true after the nano nerf. If you dont understand this you dont understand why pvp ships always fit one now.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.14 17:21:00 -
[41]
10 Ship Fit Commandments
1. Weapon Upgrades 1
2. Weapon Upgrades 2
3. Weapon Upgrades 3
4. Weapon Upgrades 4
5. Weapon Upgrades 5
6. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 1
7. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 2
8. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 3
9. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4
10.Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.14 17:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Soporo
10 Ship Fit Commandments
1. Weapon Upgrades 1
2. Weapon Upgrades 2
3. Weapon Upgrades 3
4. Weapon Upgrades 4
5. Weapon Upgrades 5
6. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 1
7. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 2
8. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 3
9. Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4
10.Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5
I protest your lack of Energy Sys Op 5, Energy Management 5, Electronics 5, and Engineering 5. There's more, but I'm lazy.
-Liang
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.10.14 17:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Shereza
Originally by: August Guns
There aren't 10 PVP commandmants, there are 2.
1- Thou shalt fit a MWD
2- YOU HAD BETTER FIT A DAMNED MWD
Gonna be so nice if/when the nano-nerf helps people to stop believing that that's true.
It will be just as true after the nano nerf. If you dont understand this you dont understand why pvp ships always fit one now.
Well see, that's the thing. People who can't fit one PvP. People who don't fit one PvP. People who fly ships/setups that can't support one PvP. All of these people who PvP and not all of them are "comedy killmails," except perhaps you apply that term to the people they kill.
So while I understand why people think that MWDs should be on every PvP ship what I don't understand is their patent refusal to accept the reality that there are exceptions to that rule, exceptions that are not always flukes or random chance.
Of course I'm the sort of person who'd fit an over-sized afterburner on some ships instead of an MWD just to get nearly the same speed boost without the cap penalty or the signature radius penalty.
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Mortuus
Minmatar
Fat J
Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.14 18:35:00 -
[44]
The only things you have to worry about are:
Knowing what your ship is capable of, keep the optimal situation as long as possible, and not letting your enemy get into a position advantageous to them.
As for specific fits, it depends on what you want to do and how you want to fly.
T1 Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates can all be effective, for much less money than T2 ships. Maybe not as effective but much more cost efficient.
T2 Frigates have jobs that can generally be done better by something else if all you think about is damage and tank. Don't think only in terms of damage and tank. Mobility and size have a lot to do with a battle. That Blasterthron may have a massive tank, and huge DPS, but its not going to hit a pair of AFs taht have it webbed down and are orbiting at 500m.
Occassus Republica <3 |
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:08:00 -
[45]
thout shall find a TWD fit and use it, well thats mine anyhow.
Dark Materials
Linkage
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
My turn to ravage the English language:
1) Thou shalt know what thou wanteth to do with thy ship and fit it accordingly.
2) Thou shalt know what thy ship can and cannot do and fly it accordingly.
3) Thou shalt not mix tanks. Tank either thy shield or thy armor (but never forget to consider fitting a damage control).
4) Thou shalt not active tank in serious PvP; learn to remote-rep.
5) Thou shalt not mix short and long range weaponry, for doing so makes thee suck at any range.
6) Thou shalt fit an MWD to every non-capital PvP ship you fit with the exception of some logistics ships and battle-industrials.
7) Thou shalt remember that gank helps thee in every combat, tank only when thou art shot at.
8) Thou shalt always fit a point if thou art planning to fight within scram range.
9) Thou shalt use ECM drones if drones aren't your main damage source, for they are OP.
10) Thou shalt break any rule in this list when thee needs to if thou really knoweth better. If thou just thinketh thou doth, thou doth not.
Hey, this was pretty damned good, actually 
_
Alternate resist display || Mission reward revamp || better nanofix
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Vathar
The Wings of Maak
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:17:00 -
[47]
I agree with most commandments posted here, but it won't help you the least bit if you don't know the reason why said pilot has deemed it fit to become one of his.
If you actually know the rationale behind these, you know in which situation it might be interesting to break them to achieve the desired result. Break too many commandments at the same time and you get a flying piece of garbage.
Breaking these rules remind me of ol' Jack sparrow
- This is either madness... or brilliance.
- It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
My turn to ravage the English language:
1) Thou shalt know what thou wanteth to do with thy ship and fit it accordingly.
2) Thou shalt know what thy ship can and cannot do and fly it accordingly.
3) Thou shalt not mix tanks. Tank either thy shield or thy armor (but never forget to consider fitting a damage control).
4) Thou shalt not active tank in serious PvP; learn to remote-rep.
5) Thou shalt not mix short and long range weaponry, for doing so makes thee suck at any range.
6) Thou shalt fit an MWD to every non-capital PvP ship you fit with the exception of some logistics ships and battle-industrials.
7) Thou shalt remember that gank helps thee in every combat, tank only when thou art shot at.
8) Thou shalt always fit a point if thou art planning to fight within scram range.
9) Thou shalt use ECM drones if drones aren't your main damage source, for they are OP.
10) Thou shalt break any rule in this list when thee needs to if thou really knoweth better. If thou just thinketh thou doth, thou doth not.
Hey, this was pretty damned good, actually
Yeah, it is.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2008.10.14 20:47:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
1) DPS wins the battle - tank only staves off defeat
The fourth type of defence, after active shield tanking, passive shield tanking, and armour tanking: Active ganking.
Kill them before they do unto you.
Certainly when it comes to flying level 3s in my Drake, I've learned that spending a couple of LOW slots on BCS II modules is *always* worthwhile. It is easy to end up in the "too much tank"-land.
--
Salpad |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:39:00 -
[50]
1) thou shall not mix active and passive forms of tanking and cap-regeneration.
2) thou shall not mix different forms of tanking.
3) thou shall not mix wepon systems unless the slots force it.
4) thou shall read the bonus' of the ships and fit them accordingly
5) don't be afraid to die
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ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar
17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
9) Thou shalt not fly the assault frigate, stealth bomber, T1 frigate or T1 cruiser, for they are an abomination before God.
Utter bull shit, and you know it. 2nd only to the BS the t1 cruiser is the most cost effective weapons platform IN THE GAME.
Ask any BS pilots if they want to fight 3 decent cruiser pilots. If you still don't understand this come to curse space some time.
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Mr Ignitious
Gallente
R.E.C.O.N.
The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: xxWhistler
Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:19:27
Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:16:19
While I do respect Merin as a frequent (and frequently correct) poster and agree with a lot of the points he makes on the forums, I have to disagree with the bit about t1 cruisers. As a low SP player, you can definitely make a difference in a t1 cruiser, primarily because you won't be primaried.
11. Respect the fact that 1v1 does not exist (at least in 0.0 - I don't live or operate in low sec and can't comment on conditions there)
12. Thou shalt not despair over the FOTM, thou shalt adapt to it.
13. When thy fitting is overcome thou shalt not despair, rather first consider how it could have been better utilized and then ponder how it could have been altered to conquer your adversary.
evidence of this, the mightiest t1 cruiser of all:
THE BLACKBIRD, AKA:BABY FALCON AKA: (this merin's reference) THE SWEET LORDS BABY JESUS.
waaaay in second, is the rupture, but its still gross(ly powerful for a t1 cruiser) and a close third i'd say goes to thorax.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
Originally by: xxWhistler
Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:19:27
Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:16:19
While I do respect Merin as a frequent (and frequently correct) poster and agree with a lot of the points he makes on the forums, I have to disagree with the bit about t1 cruisers. As a low SP player, you can definitely make a difference in a t1 cruiser, primarily because you won't be primaried.
11. Respect the fact that 1v1 does not exist (at least in 0.0 - I don't live or operate in low sec and can't comment on conditions there)
12. Thou shalt not despair over the FOTM, thou shalt adapt to it.
13. When thy fitting is overcome thou shalt not despair, rather first consider how it could have been better utilized and then ponder how it could have been altered to conquer your adversary.
evidence of this, the mightiest t1 cruiser of all:
THE BLACKBIRD, AKA:BABY FALCON AKA: (this merin's reference) THE SWEET LORDS BABY JESUS.
waaaay in second, is the rupture, but its still gross(ly powerful for a t1 cruiser) and a close third i'd say goes to thorax.
3rd has to be the stabber, thorax is a joke PG wise.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.15 04:26:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Corwain
So each thorax does about as much damage as half a Neutron 'Thron. Now, how fast do you think ANYTHING's gonna last with 3 Neutron throns shooting it at their optimal? From experience I can tell you, unless you're a capital you can measure your lifespan is SECONDS.
If you consider the standard pvp battleship has between 75 - 140k EHP and each thron will reliably (i.e. without overheating) deliver about 1200 dps or so. This means you're delivering 3600 DPS giving you a lifespan between approximately 20 and 40 seconds. Yep, it's a measurement in seconds alright - but usually when I'm given a time approximation of "seconds" I tend to think in terms of less than 10 seconds.
But, three blasterthrons is really a worst case scenario because at that point there is nothing you can do to save yourself, even if you have friends handy. Luckily, it's rare that you have 3 blaster battleships all pounding on one battleship in optimal - at least in my experience. The reason is pretty simple - your heavy bruiser ships like the gank throns are almost one shot deals - they are purpose built to annihilate a single ship in the opposing gang as quickly as possible. After that, they are usually in deep armor damage, and if they don't have an injectory are dry on cap making them utterly worthless for at least a few minutes (and even with an injector it's unlikely a thron can really survive two slugfests with other short ranged battleships in short order).
Basically, you tend to get 1 blaster boat per target unless you drastically outnumber the opposition. Then your various support ships back up the different blaster boats, and as blaster boats finish of thier targets they probably send their drones out ahead to help polish off the stragglers.
Of course, if you are wanting to plan on worst case scenarios, the 3 BS scenario is hardly as bad as it can get. You could have 3 gank ships and a falcon murdering you all at once - then you don't even get the pleasure of scratchign ineffecively at a shield.
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abrasive soap
HOMELESS.
Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
Originally by: xxWhistler
Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:19:27
Edited by: xxWhistler on 14/10/2008 05:16:19
While I do respect Merin as a frequent (and frequently correct) poster and agree with a lot of the points he makes on the forums, I have to disagree with the bit about t1 cruisers. As a low SP player, you can definitely make a difference in a t1 cruiser, primarily because you won't be primaried.
11. Respect the fact that 1v1 does not exist (at least in 0.0 - I don't live or operate in low sec and can't comment on conditions there)
12. Thou shalt not despair over the FOTM, thou shalt adapt to it.
13. When thy fitting is overcome thou shalt not despair, rather first consider how it could have been better utilized and then ponder how it could have been altered to conquer your adversary.
evidence of this, the mightiest t1 cruiser of all:
THE BLACKBIRD, AKA:BABY FALCON AKA: (this merin's reference) THE SWEET LORDS BABY JESUS.
waaaay in second, is the rupture, but its still gross(ly powerful for a t1 cruiser) and a close third i'd say goes to thorax.
Why people like the rupture so much and neglect the vexor/thorax, I don't know. In terms of maximum dps, it goes vexor -> thorax -> rupture. In terms of dps with 1600 plate, it goes vexor -> thorax -> rupture. Blackbird wins in usefulness though.
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Rajere
Vicious Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:42:00 -
[56]
cus eve isn't played in EFT? With any sort of sane fitting the vexor's DPS is middle of the pack at best. Vexor along with the thorax lack grid/fittings, and those builds aren't very viable. Thorax can out dps the rupture if pure gank fitted, but the thorax also melts to the rupture or even the moa.
How to Fail at Eve
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Vathar
The Wings of Maak
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Posted - 2008.10.15 17:36:00 -
[57]
Well, T1 cruisers have three things for them:
- They can enter restricted FW areas easily, barring the most restrictive minor plexes.
- They are dirt cheap, so easily "suicidable".
- They don't scare people (which is something that one HAS to consider)
If you want to capitalize over these facts, it makes sense to fly one. In all other cases, fly a HAC/recon if you have the skills.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.10.15 20:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: NeoTheo
thout shall find a TWD fit and primary it, well thats mine anyhow.
fixed that for you.
The Real Ten Commandments of EVE pvp:
You shall fit a MWD
You shall not mix weapon systems
You will bring a Falcon to every engagement
You will train thermodynmics to IV and keep nanite paste in all ships holds at all times
You shall use no other ammo than faction or t2
Respect your speed and transversal
You shall not tank when it is possible to gank
You shall always scout before travelling
You shall not dual tank
You shall not envy your enemies ship, nor envy his fit. All ships have a bane and that bane is their death.
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.15 22:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Utter bull shit, and you know it. 2nd only to the BS the t1 cruiser is the most cost effective weapons platform IN THE GAME.
Ask any BS pilots if they want to fight 3 decent cruiser pilots. If you still don't understand this come to curse space some time.
hmm last time I fought a T1 cruiser gang in curse (One of the corp that lived there was doing a suicide op if I recall) I remember my hurricane ripping through cruisers like hot butter, even killed a Cynabal, which is a fancy faction cruiser. I think they killed a absolution we jumped in ahead of the gang as bait though so they may have finished close iskwise, except we got all the loot  .
If I had a choice between 5 T1 cruisers and 5 BCS or HACS in my gang I know what I'd take. I think Battlecruisers are much more cost effective then cruisers, you get some punch from them and they don't pop quite as quickly. That said a lot of the time you don't have a choice what ships people bring and as others have mentioned some dps is better then no dps...
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.15 22:20:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Utter bull shit, and you know it. 2nd only to the BS the t1 cruiser is the most cost effective weapons platform IN THE GAME.
Ask any BS pilots if they want to fight 3 decent cruiser pilots. If you still don't understand this come to curse space some time.
hmm last time I fought a T1 cruiser gang in curse (One of the corp that lived there was doing a suicide op if I recall) I remember my hurricane ripping through cruisers like hot butter, even killed a Cynabal, which is a fancy faction cruiser. I think they killed a absolution we jumped in ahead of the gang as bait though so they may have finished close iskwise, except we got all the loot .
If I had a choice between 5 T1 cruisers and 5 BCS or HACS in my gang I know what I'd take. I think Battlecruisers are much more cost effective then cruisers, you get some punch from them and they don't pop quite as quickly. That said a lot of the time you don't have a choice what ships people bring and as others have mentioned some dps is better then no dps...
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