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The power of -1 X 20,000?

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Kilhu Emmek Minmatar Redshift Industrial	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:10:00 - [91] Man, I don't know. The Icelandic economy is in bad shape (in before lol US banking crisis), it makes sense that they're trying to maximize profit potential, but I can't agree with their methodology. Increasing the GTC cost (effectively raising the isk price 150-200% per day) wasn't brilliant, I think that will/has cost them some accounts (and let's not open that barrel of worms, but my position on it is "less demand, fewer GTCs bought for real money" or for the trolls out there "in the future, all players = farmers ni hao xia xia sia jian"). This latest move seems to be banking on the hardcore to keep paying to train up some of the really long skill paths (and yes, I fly caps, including industrial caps, so I can has painz 2). I agree with many on this thread that the long term effect will likely be fewer players/subscriptions over time. I think we'll see older characters being sold/recycled a lot on the forums, but the net result, I believe, will be a decline in subscription figures and ultimate lost revenue. When you can have a character "training" while not playing and keep tabs on it, you can come back when some long skill is done, reactivate, work a handful of short skills until your sub's about to run out, set another long one cooking, go off and play an alt or some other game or whatever, then come back and repeat the process when the current long skill is done cooking. The step that will be missing in the future is "come back when the current long skill is done cooking." We had a corp mate all-but-leave when Warhammer came out, and his report back was "it's insanely fun, I can jump into large scale PvP on day one and really make a difference, even with guys who have been powerlevelling since launch." There's some mechanic in Warhammer that bumps your PvP skills to a set minimum in certain areas whenever you enter a "contested zone" or whatever (sounds like a goon wet dream). This same player's biggest problem with Eve is that he can't do anything useful and fun (we're a 0.0 corp, noob scouts ftl) without four or five months of training. I suspect he may leave eve entirely as this ghost training "fix" is the nail in the coffin. No incentive to come back. More on that in a hot minute. WoW just changed a bunch of mechanics so that PvPers can maximize their enjoyment--moving players from PvE servers, a bunch of skill/talent/tree changes intended to max out PvP abilities (got the details from a prot warrior friend of mine last night who is begging me to bring my rogue back to life because of some godly prot war/"dodge" rogue combo). PvP is, I think, the future of MMOs, and in a game like eve when you've got five year old toons (like me) with maxxed out "talent trees," it's got to be disheartening as hell to start fresh, fire up evemon, and then look at the skill training time on some of these cap ships. I was here when eve launched, took a break, came back, and ... man. It really feels like the original game got lost somewhere along the way. Too many long skills, too much time investment. I can't imagine having to start from fresh today. My most pvp fun remains frig combat in year one. I really miss it, hope the assault frig changes make it viable again. And torfi, j00 no eye luv U (long time no talk, how's the robot building going? still doing that? grats on the se±or producership), but couching this as a "bug fix" was really just ... man. I mean, the player base revolted when the GTC thing was announced as "moving prices in-line with industry standards" or whatever the official line was (come on, guys, we're bright people, we play eve and can do math). Announcing this as a "bug fix" was just ... I mean ouch, dude, really. Tell me someone else put you up to that. Peace out, best of luck. Still the best space MMO going. I just think we should maybe see other people. --
Alex Salas BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:15:00 - [92] Originally by: Tiirae This aspect confuses me greatly. Not just with this issue; this type of thinking comes up every time there's a nerf or something and people feel 'betrayed' by it. Originally by: Cat Molina Since it is missing; would you mind explaining how CCP mishandled this change to their game? Especially how it was mishandled to the point of 'treason'? I believe I can address both comment in one go. I will preface with what I am about to say is that the ghost train does not affect me. I paid for my accounts, but am I wrong not to care about corp-mates some of whom I call my friends? In general, if a provider were to dismiss your concerns IRL or in an MMO that were part fundamentally part of the product or service as a mistake and with little lead time to adjust to those changes. And it takes 100+ pages to get an official acknowledgement, it does not sit well. EVE is composed of three units: game, community, and service. Only CCP thinks that they can offer a product with bad service. In the end it is their prerogative and I will not support it anymore. If a cable or cell provider were to shove their service with bad support, I am sure you will seek alternatives. Fortunately MMOÆs provide greater amount of alternatives than IRL. ___ EVE lies...rotating FTL!!! http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=99 On the Serenity server, skills no longer train when the owning account is deactivated. Tranqu
IronPants	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:27:00 - [93] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 15/10/2008 23:23:34 Originally by: Mordrake Originally by: Caiman Graystock It's probably about 15. A lot of lying trolls on these forums. Hope you are correct, love this game despite frequent and varied foopas by staffers in community relations, is why I would like to know the info up front and honest. Pro-tip: If you want to enjoy Eve to the fullest and always have a happy day in it (sans getting your untanked t1 hauler filled with all your evely posessions blown up at a camp) then *Never Ever* read the forums. Eve will feel so much moar dynamic and exciting then.* *unless of course your a forum warrior type and enjoy the extension of pvp and mind games onto the boards then by all means poast away! Quoted for total truth. Reading forums has killed my interest in game and lead to subscription cancelling. I wish I had never found out about dev posts and eve-online forums.
Zadren Radek Gallente Ghost in the Machine Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:19:00 - [94] What's made me cringe is the really cynical attempts at cover-ups and appeasement that has gone on since this came to light. 1. A 120 page thread disappears up its own arse cos of a mysterious "forum issue." 2. Aforementioned 120 page thread of outrage is studiously ignored by CCP. All other attempts at discussing this are quashed. (As I'm sure this one will be.) 3. Bones are thrown in an effort to distract the restive populace: "Expansion" announcement, QEN (A VERY late QEN at that), EPG blog. 4. Devs in a "good mood" chatting up the customers in totally irrelevant threads. Here doggies, fetch the ball! What you think we are? And before anyone asks, no I'm not quitting and no, you can't have my stuff, though I understand the sentiments of people who are leaving. No one likes to be mugged off, especially paying customers.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:48:00 - [95] Originally by: Mordrake Edited by: Mordrake on 16/10/2008 11:28:23 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Mordrake Simple fact is when I go fight for my country I have no access to the ability to change skill training, the removed feature was a big selling point to justification of multiple accounts. And exactly how is it easier to change skills on inactive accounts compared to active accounts when you are away? Step 1: I will be gone for 6 to 8 months Step 2: Cancel TV, all extra non-critical services which I will not use while away from home (EVE Online) Step 3: Ensure will and all paperwork up to date, give power of attorney to relative Step 4: Don't get killed Step 5: On reactivation enjoy a brand new Level 5 skill Step 6: PROFIT !!! Comprende Amigo? Spanking noobs in RL,in game and on the forum? man.....talk about having it all...
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.16 19:20:00 - [96] I'm sure by the time the QEN Q4 comes out, we'll have definitive numbers on the population changes. According to our resident economist, that should be out in January, although I'll believe it when I see it.
Moto42	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:03:00 - [97] they will most likely just fudge the numbers because their pride wont let them admit they where wrong about the recent patch .. Wait let me kinda type that.. pride wont let them admit that they did it "WRONG" Oh and look one offical statement on the entire thing, AND a hidden thread for what, almost 3 days now? 160 pages of hidden thread?
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:21:00 - [98] Edited by: DaDutchDude on 16/10/2008 20:22:15 Originally by: Moto42 they will most likely just fudge the numbers because their pride wont let them admit they where wrong about the recent patch .. Wait let me kinda type that.. pride wont let them admit that they did it "WRONG" Oh and look one offical statement on the entire thing, AND a hidden thread for what, almost 3 days now? 160 pages of hidden thread? OMFG they hid it in plain view! The basterds!
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:34:00 - [99] I would imagine the number of accounts reactivated cos ghost was nerfed will be more than the number cancelled cos ghost training was nerfed tbh. I am pcless for the next couple of months and was gonna ghost train for the first time ever. Now i will probably just pay through on at least some of them, so ccp makes money there.
Tae'Lin Hynd Simply Planned	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:14:00 - [100] Everyone who did use this as a cusion in a time when either your check and eve didn't line up, or you were away, or you were tired of the flaws in eve....... Can thank CCP for allowing characters to be traded for isk. This brought on the character farmers. Look at the character bazaar if you don't believe, numbers of characters are getting out of control, and it was cheaper for them to make the isk off characters then selling GTC...Think about that one. Item mall next?
Mordrake Orbital Anvil Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:03:00 - [101] To everyone who is contributing in a sane way to this discussion, thank you, sincerely. Can we not get a comment from CCP on the impact this is having? I do not ask for apology or further explanation, I think we can all see that enough has been said and that there will be no going back now. I just wish to get an idea of the initial impact. A still dedicated customer, albeit with fewer accounts. "Arte et Marte"
jitamarket checker	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:35:00 - [102] Originally by: Mordrake Any word from CCP staffers as to how many accounts have been canceled in the last 2 days? I know I streamlined my accounts a bit. OVER 9000
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Alex Salas In general, if a provider were to dismiss your concerns IRL or in an MMO that were part fundamentally part of the product or service as a mistake and with little lead time to adjust to those changes. And it takes 100+ pages to get an official acknowledgement, it does not sit well. Perhaps I've become jaded with Eve customer service, or lack experience with MMOs in general (Eve is my first and only)... but honestly, it doesn't look like a big cover-up or some shadowy agenda. The official response feels like the same pattern we see in everything CCP does: 10 different people all doing stuff without any idea what the others are up to. (Sorry CCP, but I gotta call 'em like I see 'em.) Anyway, I do hope things get worked out where those with real-life constraints can still play.
OmgzHappy	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:04:00 - [104] I believe over time we will loose more then the OP has said. But I dont think he had actually put serious thought into the number he picked anyways. Ccp has effectively triple nerfed timecards, something that is comon in their balance changes since the get go. Out of timecard users, their are two groups. Group A) they use time cards to play because they have no monetary capablities in real life, either no CC or they are poor either way. I have both of these people in My corp, the fact they're going to vanish makes me wonder why im still playing if I've got no friends to play with. 90 days for these people would have been better isk/day wise but never having the capital to reach a 90 day price kept them at 30 day cards. now group B) Ghost training accounts. the most effective way to train alot and pay nothing was using a 30 day card and putting long skills inbetween reactivations. removing 30 and 90 made doing this that much harder. If you have a 30 day space between using 30 day cards, you're effectively getting training for 50% the price. If you train a 30 day skill between 60day timecards you're paying 2/3rds or 66.6r% makes a greater demand of GTC's for those who dont leave their ghost acc's expired. and that drives the already high gtc prices higher and makes us loose the isk to play players as well. I believe people who can move to 6-12 month subs really dont want to because of CCPs poor balance changes that are up coming. and the already possible loss of playerbase. Who wants to play an mmo with no players =( even then I'll probably stick it out.. with the loss of a few acc. things must be really bad in iceland.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:12:00 - [105] Awaiting a reaction from those concerned. The removal of "Ghost Training"
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:22:00 - [106] do us a favour. stop posting about how 'nasty' ccp is and 'disgusted' you are by their behaviour and quite the muddafudding game already.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.17 04:23:00 - [107] Originally by: jitamarket checker Originally by: Mordrake Any word from CCP staffers as to how many accounts have been canceled in the last 2 days? I know I streamlined my accounts a bit. OVER 9000 where did you get that figure from? ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.17 04:40:00 - [108] Originally by: Squarl ... that's what i thought. ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:13:00 - [109] Originally by: ISpam Getting something for free isnt what its about Strange how people become somewhat dense when someone takes away their free candy. 1) CCP said that ghost training was a feature - as stated by the player guide. 2) It was a feature which they didn't want to have, it was unintended. Obviously it moved by time up enough in the priority list so that they fixed it now. Either you pay and enjoy the service CCP provide for Eve or you don't pay and then you don't have access to the service. Easy and fair.
F90OEX F9X	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:21:00 - [110] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: ISpam Getting something for free isnt what its about Either you pay and enjoy the service CCP provide for Eve or you don't pay and then you don't have access to the service. Easy and fair. This x 200000 Hope they follow thru with it, less **ing whiners to deal it .. Pay to play or ** off
Mordrake Orbital Anvil Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:21:00 - [111] Bump for response from CCP as to numbers question "Arte et Marte"
Mordrake Orbital Anvil Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.17 21:19:00 - [112] Rather disappointing that we can't get an honest answer to this.... or any type of response. Meh "Arte et Marte"
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.17 22:33:00 - [113] Originally by: Gnulpie Either you pay and enjoy the service CCP provide for Eve or you don't pay and then you don't have access to the service. Easy and fair. Except for one minor thing. You can't log in when not funded. Can't swap skills, can't pew, can't fuel your POS, can't run missions, can't churn out battleships, can't rat, can't mine, can't forum ****, can't AFK cloak in prime enemy ratting space or ... anything. So, you don't have access to the service in any way. Now, I make far more ISK when active in game than a GTC costs. 250M a month, that's... squat, I can cough that up in 2-3 days. Or possibly with one lucky faction spawn. Ghost training has 'cost' me tens of billions over the last 2 years. In fact, I don't even want to think how much more ISK I'd have if I kept playing and reinvested the earnings. But see, I need* ghost training to finish those timewaste skills which do NOTHING but open up useful ones. If I can log in I do the ADD thing and train everything else instead. I know I'm not capable of paying but not playing for 60+ days at a stretch so no cap ships for me. Which means I've pretty much done everything I wanted in eve, and it's time to move on until there are new shinies to strive for.
Preator Phenix	Posted - 2008.10.17 22:50:00 - [114] Who the hell cares, like i know ghost training is fun but really if you go inactive to months on a time then quit, cause either you don't have the time for eve or you cannot afford it those are the only 2 options you got, yes i know it was fun but hey nothing stays the same things always change get used to it, and stop your whining Peace out Trollers -Phenix
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE R-I-P	Posted - 2008.10.17 22:52:00 - [115] Originally by: IronPants Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 15/10/2008 23:23:34 Originally by: Mordrake Originally by: Caiman Graystock It's probably about 15. A lot of lying trolls on these forums. Hope you are correct, love this game despite frequent and varied foopas by staffers in community relations, is why I would like to know the info up front and honest. Pro-tip: If you want to enjoy Eve to the fullest and always have a happy day in it (sans getting your untanked t1 hauler filled with all your evely posessions blown up at a camp) then *Never Ever* read the forums. Eve will feel so much moar dynamic and exciting then.* *unless of course your a forum warrior type and enjoy the extension of pvp and mind games onto the boards then by all means poast away! Quoted for total truth. Reading forums has killed my interest in game and lead to subscription cancelling. I wish I had never found out about dev posts and eve-online forums. lol The hidden ghost training eradication reply thread
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.17 23:18:00 - [116] Originally by: Mordrake Rather disappointing that we can't get an honest answer to this.... or any type of response. Meh It's not in their interest to do so, really All it'll do is further fan the flames, which causes even more threadnaught. Torfifrans' dev blog explaining why is probably partly to blame for the threadnaught coalescing in the first place. If Fallout had just said "Hey, we're nerfing your ghost training. Bye.", let the few drama llamas quit, and let everyone else be worried that CCP are just going through some hard financial times, it probably would have died out. There probably would've been some rabble rabble, but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad. But instead, torfifrans posted about it, some people took his 'unintended feature' or 'bug' (however exactly he phrased it) as some terrible lie, freaked out, then more drama about the forum bug that hid the thread, and it turned into a huge mess for CCP. Net effect: If CCP had just been quiet or let a little info out about it, it would've been fine. Instead, we have drama and threadnaughts In short, if people weren't such drama llamas we could have nice things like developer posts in serious threads __________ Originally by: Tortun Nahme nah, that is the true badge of a forum warrior, to draw the humorous ire of the devs
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2008.10.17 23:21:00 - [117] Edited by: Xen Gin on 17/10/2008 23:23:10 Originally by: Zadren Radek What's made me cringe is the really cynical attempts at cover-ups and appeasement that has gone on since this came to light. 1. A 120 page thread disappears up its own arse cos of a mysterious "forum issue." 2. Aforementioned 120 page thread of outrage is studiously ignored by CCP. All other attempts at discussing this are quashed. (As I'm sure this one will be.) 3. Bones are thrown in an effort to distract the restive populace: "Expansion" announcement, QEN (A VERY late QEN at that), EPG blog. 4. Devs in a "good mood" chatting up the customers in totally irrelevant threads. Here doggies, fetch the ball! What you think we are? And before anyone asks, no I'm not quitting and no, you can't have my stuff, though I understand the sentiments of people who are leaving. No one likes to be mugged off, especially paying customers. How is this different from any other games developers/publishers? TBH, it's your own fault for putting CCP on a 'Holier than thou' pedestal. I expect CCP to make changes that I'm not going to like or want. Why, because it's their game, and I'm here because I enjoy it. If I didn't enjoy it, I'd either quit or come back later, not whine like a child on a WoW forum, threaten to quit then hang around. And those of you who are claiming this 'feature' is what's keeping you here or was what sealed the deal, I suggest you actually carry out your threats and leave. Because if that is the only thing keeping you here, don't let this great game with its features of PAYING FOR GREAT GAMING hit your arse on the way out. Get over yourselves.
Minsc Gallente A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.17 23:37:00 - [118] I see all these people claiming "feature feature feature!!!" all over the place based on 1 line from the player guide that someone who joined CCP lateer on could have easily mistaken for that, but if it was a feature it would be on the features page. The truth is it was a bug that was of low priority for them to fix as few people knew about it or used it. As can easily be seen in the character bazaar forum that's no longer the case so it's priority was increased and they finally fixed it. You may not like it but that's just the way it is, end of story. Originally by: Sharkbait please for the love of god read the dam stickies
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.18 00:18:00 - [119] Originally by: Minsc The truth is it was a bug that was of low priority for them to fix as few people knew about it or used it. As can easily be seen in the character bazaar forum that's no longer the case so it's priority was increased and they finally fixed it. You may not like it but that's just the way it is, end of story. No, that is absolutely NOT the truth. Read the 150 page thread for a clue why. Hint: fixed on eve china over a year ago, but thought to be useful on tranq. And, in fact, explained as a feature THAT IS STAYING on tranq even though it's being removed on eve china. That was over a year ago. Now, features get added and removed. And that's fine. But don't you dare claim it was a bug too low of a priority to fix until now.
Preator Phenix	Posted - 2008.10.18 00:20:00 - [120] Trollers make me ROFL

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