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Missile damage on Singularity: Feedback thread

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.18 04:11:00 - [31] well stealth bombers are still worthless. Cruise missiles dont seem to catch any small ships. Cruisers should tank a stealth bomber. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.18 05:06:00 - [32] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/10/2008 05:07:15 1) Precision heavy missiles are broken. Same explosion radius/velocity as T1 heavy missiles, but with less range and damage. 2) The missile formula has not been released. Without exact numbers, how are we supposed to comment on if the balance changes are correct or not? Since there's really no way to know your opponent's setup, how are we supposed to know whether our missiles are losing damage because of speed, because of sig radius, or because of the tartget's high resists? Do you *really* want all feedback to be based on wild speculation? 3) The threshold for damage reduction is WAY too low, without a boost in base damage to compensate. 166m sig and 162m/s radius (for heavy missiles) explosion velocity mean virtually every cruiser-size will be getting some damage reduction. The whole reason for this nerf was missiles doing too much damage to smaller targets, not to targets within their size class. Nobody (nobody sane, at least) ever complained about heavy missiles doing too much damage to non-speed-tanked cruisers. But what you've given is not more options for speed tanking, it's an across-the-board damage nerf to missile ships. Missiles either need the explosion radius/velocity set to a level where all non-speed-tanked (and I mean true speed tank, not just fitting an AB for massive damage reduction) ships in their size class will take full damage, or the base damage of missiles needs to be increased so that those non-speed-tanked ships take the same damage as they do from TQ missiles (giving missiles extra damage against bigger/slower targets).
Johnster Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.10.18 07:09:00 - [33] OMG. *ANOTHER* missile nerf!!! On sisi a few days ago my cruise missiles couldn't even hit a blood raider battleship rat, I logged out in disgust and have not really been back ingame since. How many times can you nerf missiles? You made torpedos pointless (same with cruise with the nano ships -- never getting to a target = 0 damage), and now its going to be cruise as well? When do we get a break? Seems we get screwed for no real reason with every single patch... Took years to change the nano issue... Not only are caldari now not a PVP race, they are also not a PVE race.. Whats left? Industy? You and your alliance will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
Kransthow The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.18 09:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Johnster Edited by: Johnster on 18/10/2008 07:25:39 OMG. *ANOTHER* caldari nerf!!! On sisi a few days ago my cruise missiles couldn't even hit a blood raider battleship rat, I logged out in disgust and have not really been back ingame since. How many times can you nerf missiles? You nerfed out passive shield tanking with the last patch as well as making torpedos pointless (same with cruise with the nano ships -- never getting to a target = 0 damage), and now its going to be cruise as well? When do we get a break? Seems we get screwed for no real reason with every single patch... But it took well over a year to address the nano issue... Not only are caldari now not a PVP race, they are also not a PVE race.. Whats left? Industy? If anything, missiles need a massive boost, or even larger drone bays to compensate for the inability to kill anything. Looks like my gallente skills are about to become my only option. ... facepalm.jpg
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.18 10:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Merin Ryskin 2) The missile formula has not been released. Without exact numbers, how are we supposed to comment on if the balance changes are correct or not? I actually lolled . Talk about self-confidence. Merin, take off the Napoleon hat, go to test and TEST the results as a consumer (and not as a dev). Because you are a consumer and not a dev. No blue bars, see? Alternatively - write to Microsoft and ask them for Windows source code to assess the quality of the recent Vista patches. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.10.18 10:51:00 - [36] I love the idea of MWD making you take more missle damage while AB have you take less. At the same time you might be able to get out of range faster with a MWD, so it's an interest trade off. However as others have said, things like rockets should still do good damage when being fired at a frigate using an afterburner, ect.
SFShootme Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.18 11:33:00 - [37] Edited by: SFShootme on 18/10/2008 11:33:56 Edited by: SFShootme on 18/10/2008 11:33:21 Lets take a Dominix vs a Cruise missile Raven as it is on sisi. According to this graph: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/Sisi_Cruise_Missile_Graph.png , mentioned dominix doeing 800m/s is pretty much invulnerable to Cruise missiles (look at the damage reduction which is around 52%) [VIDEO] Paroxysm
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.18 13:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Johnster lots of unwise words... ________________ God is my Wingman
Master Akira Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.18 13:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Johnster Edited by: Johnster on 18/10/2008 07:25:39 OMG. *ANOTHER* caldari nerf!!! On sisi a few days ago my cruise missiles couldn't even hit a blood raider battleship rat, I logged out in disgust and have not really been back ingame since. How many times can you nerf missiles? You nerfed out passive shield tanking with the last patch as well as making torpedos pointless (same with cruise with the nano ships -- never getting to a target = 0 damage), and now its going to be cruise as well? When do we get a break? Seems we get screwed for no real reason with every single patch... But it took well over a year to address the nano issue... Not only are caldari now not a PVP race, they are also not a PVE race.. Whats left? Industy? If anything, missiles need a massive boost, or even larger drone bays to compensate for the inability to kill anything. Looks like my gallente skills are about to become my only option. I really hope you are trolling and this is not a serious opinion.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:04:00 - [40] I tried missiles in Singularity and at the moment the damage using target painter's is not diferent from the one without using a target painter. If the formula takes into account the signature radius of the targeted ship shouldn't this be diferent ? I was using HAM's II loaded with Torrent Javelin Missiles. ________________ God is my Wingman
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:23:00 - [41] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/10/2008 15:23:43 Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Merin Ryskin 2) The missile formula has not been released. Without exact numbers, how are we supposed to comment on if the balance changes are correct or not? I actually lolled . Talk about self-confidence. Merin, take off the Napoleon hat, go to test and TEST the results as a consumer (and not as a dev). Because you are a consumer and not a dev. No blue bars, see? Alternatively - write to Microsoft and ask them for Windows source code to assess the quality of the recent Vista patches. Which is why we've got all the other formulas in game (like tracking, current missile damage calculator, etc)? I need to bookmark the picard facepalm picture, because people deserve it on these forums oh so often. And yes, releasing it would help a lot. I still don't understand why did they decide that missiles should not do proper DPS on target of same size without a target painter and two webs + scrambler on target Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:32:00 - [42] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/10/2008 15:23:43 Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Merin Ryskin 2) The missile formula has not been released. Without exact numbers, how are we supposed to comment on if the balance changes are correct or not? I actually lolled . Talk about self-confidence. Merin, take off the Napoleon hat, go to test and TEST the results as a consumer (and not as a dev). Because you are a consumer and not a dev. No blue bars, see? Alternatively - write to Microsoft and ask them for Windows source code to assess the quality of the recent Vista patches. Which is why we've got all the other formulas in game (like tracking, current missile damage calculator, etc)? I need to bookmark the picard facepalm picture, because people deserve it on these forums oh so often. And yes, releasing it would help a lot. I still don't understand why did they decide that missiles should not do proper DPS on target of same size without a target painter and two webs + scrambler on target BTL target painters are not helping a nickle ________________ God is my Wingman
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:34:00 - [43] Originally by: DeadDuck BTL target painters are not helping a nickle What does sig radius do for missiles now? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:47:00 - [44] Considering how little detail and feedback we seem to be getting from every the most deluded nerf hound id say things must be worse than the projections more experienced players predicted. Logging onto sisi as soon as i can for a report on how things are.

CCP Fendahl	Posted - 2008.10.18 16:10:00 - [45] Very nice feedback so far (love the spreadsheet ). We're currently focusing on getting the T1 missiles balanced, so expect the T2 missiles to be a bit rough until we get a better balance for the T1 missiles. I should probably mention that we're updating the missile stats directly on sisi as we work on this, rather than integrating everything and waiting for the static update of sisi (which is done daily during the weekdays iirc). The advantage is that we can try out new stuff after simply just rebooting sisi, but the downside is that everything is overridden once the static update runs (i.e. all the stats will revert to what's in the official test build). Another thing is that the new missile damage formula uses a new attribute, damage reduction factor, which determines how much the damage is reduced as the sig radius to speed ratio decreases. The attribute should be visible on the missiles after the reboot we're doing now.

Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.18 16:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Cpt Branko Which is why we've got all the other formulas in game (like tracking, current missile damage calculator, etc)? There is a subtle difference between A) CCP giving players the formula B) players inventing the formula themselves. Situation B) goes like 1) Some guy spends several days experimenting. 2) He come up with a formula, saying the effect A=aX+bY 3) He announces it on the forums. 4) 40 other forum warriors praise him for effort. 5) CCP makes stealth change to the formula, because they think messing with the @allknowing@ forum warriors is fun (now the formula is A=aX+bY+C) 6) Forum warriors believe in false formula, and make theories on that. 7) The majority of players DOES NOT CARE. Yes, a facepalm icon would be most welcome. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.18 16:17:00 - [47] Originally by: CCP Fendahl The attribute should be visible on the missiles after the reboot we're doing now. That's what I call perfect timing. We have an inter-alliance event planned on Sisi in 40 minutes. Something like 200 people involved. Hope the Sisi would not go down in the middle of it - on the other hand it would allow us to practise the node crash tactics... (yes, I am an optimist) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.10.18 17:03:00 - [48] How about a mod that reduces sig radius? ----------------------------------------------------
Ximen	Posted - 2008.10.18 17:39:00 - [49] Well a sieged pheonix is useless against anything thats moving now :/ Phoenix v Thanatos at 93ms.. roughly 1900dmg per torp Sieged Phoenix v Thanatos at 92ms.. roughly roughly 2600dmg per torp. Sieged Pheonix v Thantos at 0m3.. somewhere near 15k dmg Ouch ccp, ouch. Also my launchers refused to reload properly. They'd take the ammo from the cargo, but never successfully load. The launchers werent grouped, and I played with every setting to do with reload and still no luck. On the plus side, they appear to have been hp buffed as smartbombs werent popping them as they used to.
Pattern Clarc Naglihiem	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:09:00 - [50] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2008 18:10:50 Heavy missiles are too fast or interceptors are too slow, cerbs and drakes have far too easy a time against tacklers. With turrets, ceptor pilots had a choice, get under then guns, or get out, with heavy missiles there is just no room to work with as far as tactics are concerned... Have you considered having missile agility/mass as a stat to work with? When. Bumper to bumper with a typhoon, have you ever experienced the phenomenon in which torps will launch from one side of the other ship, arc round, but fail to hit? (flight time expires...) What if. Missile agility was tweaked. IE, reduced across the board, so that cruisers had a chance of out manoeuvring cruise missiles and destroyers had a chance of avoiding heavy missiles by sheer force of direction change (ie, a missile might be faster than you, but you could still our turn it long enough to exceed it's flight time) DeltaV based tracking and hit mechanics has been something i've long advocated for, however in this instance, it seems to be built into the game mechanics. This would require a bit load of testing, new skills, or new misile tracking like mods, but the potential to inprove tactically, politing against missiles, at least, may be worth it. It would certainly open the door to new agility/speed based fittings and balancing.

CCP Nozh C C P	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2008 18:10:50 Heavy missiles are too fast or interceptors are too slow, cerbs and drakes have far too easy a time against tacklers. With turrets, ceptor pilots had a choice, get under then guns, or get out, with heavy missiles there is just no room to work with as far as tactics are concerned... Yeah we came to that conclusion earlier. Heavy missile are more effective than light missiles against frigates, bad. We'll do something about it. Nozh Game Designer CCP Games

Theqwert125	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:48:00 - [52] Very clever, now the difference between precisions/fury/standards is the "Damage reduction factor" the old balancing stats are identical now.
Fird	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:52:00 - [53] Can't you just leave it the way it is ? just bork the speed changes ? you know leave well enough alone...

CCP Nozh C C P	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:59:00 - [54] Originally by: Theqwert125 Very clever, now the difference between precisions/fury/standards is the "Damage reduction factor" the old balancing stats are identical now. Haven't taken a proper look at t2 missiles yet. We're getting T1 sorted first. Nozh Game Designer CCP Games

Adaera	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:01:00 - [55] Originally by: CCP Nozh Originally by: Theqwert125 Very clever, now the difference between precisions/fury/standards is the "Damage reduction factor" the old balancing stats are identical now. Haven't taken a proper look at t2 missiles yet. We're getting T1 sorted first. Nice to know there might be some hope for precision heavies
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:06:00 - [56] If you are making ab's better then MWD for missile damage then you need to look at the hyena or it will be broken. My max speed is 3300-4000 m/s with t2 gear in the hyena. The afterburner on a hyena would be ridiculous as it currently gets a MWD bonus. So it needs some more speed or a change in bonus or it's going to just suck. (I've tested, it's awful now.)
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:10:00 - [57] Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:17:01 Ok we did a bit of testing ceptor (TARANIS + NATURAL RESISTS) vs manticore and: Taranis doing 5kms with mwd and 2kms with AB. PROPULSION..................AB.........MWD.....STATIONARY T1 CRUISE WRAITH.......20.7...........36.9.............138.2 T2 CRUISE WRAITH.......51.7...........74.3.............119.8 WRAITH FURY................8.3.......TO SLOW...........159.0 RAVEN VS TARANIS(same speeds as above.) AB MWD STATIONARY T1 CRUISE WRAITH 4.3 7.6 n/a T2 CRUISE WRAITH 13.3 23.7 n/a WRAITH FURY 1.1 TO SLOW TO CATCH SHIP n/a SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
Rex Lashar	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:39:00 - [58] Originally by: CCP Nozh Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2008 18:10:50 Heavy missiles are too fast or interceptors are too slow, cerbs and drakes have far too easy a time against tacklers. With turrets, ceptor pilots had a choice, get under then guns, or get out, with heavy missiles there is just no room to work with as far as tactics are concerned... Yeah we came to that conclusion earlier. Heavy missile are more effective than light missiles against frigates, bad. We'll do something about it. I actually came on here to post this. After testing, I wasn't pleased with the amount of ease heavy missiles had on frig targets. Question.. are there ever going to be any sig reduction modules/rigs introduced? With sig playing a more significant role (and Target Painters becoming useful again), there should be a more normal way of modifying your setup. Currently, the only choice is Halo implants.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.18 19:59:00 - [59] Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 18/10/2008 20:00:20 after reboot: cruise missiles: vaga hit with mwd off 54 dmg , vaga hit doing top mwd pseed 64 dmg wolf hit with ab on/off 16 dmg rember these damagaes are after resists so 50% cut ! http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg guide ninja edited already hidden topic: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread
Adaera	Posted - 2008.10.18 20:12:00 - [60] Umm, just read the first post on page 2 and got me wondering, are you considering any tweaks to stealth bomber missiles?

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