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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:28:00 - [121] Originally by: Murina 2500 alpha missile dmg from a frig against a interceptor are you drunk?. With what a rof of about 3-5 seconds?. 800ish dps from a frig against the fastest pvp ship with the smallest sig radius in the game?. Stop posting pls. What does any of this mean? 800 DPS frigate? Whaaaaat?
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:34:00 - [122] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 13:35:09 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Murina 2500 alpha missile dmg from a frig against a interceptor are you drunk?. With what a rof of about 3-5 seconds?. 800ish dps from a frig against the fastest pvp ship with the smallest sig radius in the game?. Stop posting pls. What does any of this mean? 800 DPS frigate? Whaaaaat? Alpha strike (or first volley if you prefer) divided by rof. 2500 per volley divided by 3 or so seconds = 800 ish dps. That is double all gunnery sniper BS dps btw lol.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:41:00 - [123] Edited by: Gypsio III on 20/10/2008 13:44:21 Yeah I got that the first time. What I don't understand is where those numbers are coming from. Where does the 3 second ROF come from?
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:45:00 - [124] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 13:47:05 Originally by: Gypsio III Yeah I got that the first time. What I don't understand is where those numbers are coming from. Originally by: Jason Edwards If t2 unnerfed missiles arent even doing enough damage... remember stealth bomber is supposed to be a big alpha which destroys frigates easily. 2500ish dmg.. where Or else the whole idea behind the stealth bomber is lost because the dps on the stealth bomber is sad. Alpha damage is what you want. Even in the best of situation for interceptors and such... 1st volley ought to leave the interceptor deep into structure or dead. From this tool. I was trying to point out how deluded he was tbh.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:54:00 - [125] Quote: If t2 unnerfed missiles arent even doing enough damage... remember stealth bomber is supposed to be a big alpha which destroys frigates easily. 2500ish dmg.. where Or else the whole idea behind the stealth bomber is lost because the dps on the stealth bomber is sad. Alpha damage is what you want. Even in the best of situation for interceptors and such... 1st volley ought to leave the interceptor deep into structure or dead. Where's the delusion? That seems to make sense, generally. SBs are about big alpha - that's the entire point of them. They should be capable of instapopping frigates, given no damage mitigation via tank or speed/sig issues. Equally, inties should be able to mitigate a lot of their damage, but not all, as currently stands via explosion velocity. SB ROF isn't 3 seconds and they don't deal 800 DPS. I'm really confused now tbh...
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:58:00 - [126] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 14:00:53 Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: If t2 unnerfed missiles arent even doing enough damage... remember stealth bomber is supposed to be a big alpha which destroys frigates easily. 2500ish dmg.. where Or else the whole idea behind the stealth bomber is lost because the dps on the stealth bomber is sad. Alpha damage is what you want. Even in the best of situation for interceptors and such... 1st volley ought to leave the interceptor deep into structure or dead. Where's the delusion? That seems to make sense, generally. SBs are about big alpha - that's the entire point of them. They should be capable of instapopping frigates, given no damage mitigation via tank or speed/sig issues. Equally, inties should be able to mitigate a lot of their damage, but not all, as currently stands via explosion velocity. SB ROF isn't 3 seconds and they don't deal 800 DPS. I'm really confused now tbh... His example wanted a bomber to put out a alpha of 2500 (or more) against a ceptor running at high speeds and while 3 seconds rof was not accurate (used a pimped raven modal by mistake) it is still a stupidly high dps and alpha for a frig to put out against a ceptor doing 5kms or more.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:06:00 - [127] Ok, I understand now. Yeah, 2500 damage is typical raw SB damage I think. But yeah, interceptors should get massive damage mitigation while MWDing or ABing - just not the lol-immunity that the current TQ missile damage formula gives to any inty running at speed. The devs still seem to be tweaking the missile damage formula itself, so I suspect specfic things like balancing SBs against inties will come fairly late in the process, probably via tweaks to the SB and inty bonuses. We'll see.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:38:00 - [128] Edited by: Rip Striker on 20/10/2008 14:39:38 Originally by: Gypsio III There are no support BC/BS for a Cruise Raven to shoot - they're either fleet snipers, being targeted by your fleet snipers, or tanked close-range gang BS. The whole point of a Cruise Raven is that it's able to damage enemy support - and that means HACs and recons - because there are no support BC/BS worth talking about (yeah yeah Scorp) and those that do exist are better dealt with by your fleet sniper BS. Imo, most battlecruisers (including command ships), should be considered as support as they typically have rather mediocre dps, quite decent tanking ability, means to fit ewar modules and can give various support bonuses to a fleet (command modules). For this purpose cruise Raven is suited perfectly as the anti BC ship (in addition of being a sniper ship in general against BC/BS). Just make the explosion radius of cruise missiles (T2 precision) match the signature radius of battlecruisers. Originally by: Gypsio III Cruise Raven must remain effective against HACs/Recons - just less effective than a Cerberus - otherwise it has no role. A single ship should never be able to become an öeffectiveö weapon against cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships....simultaneously. Imo, it is either cruisers or battlecruisers/battleships. Since the anti-cruiser spot is occupied, that leaves one spot open for the cruise Raven. Originally by: Gypsio III Cruise explosion radius needs to be reduced. Base Cruise damage may need to be reduced to compensate for the increased effectiveness against small targets at close range. I can already hear the screams of agony from Navy Raven mission runners. Fly safe!
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:47:00 - [129] Originally by: Rip Striker A single ship should never be able to become an öeffectiveö weapon against cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships....simultaneously. Since when is any ship with cruise missiles as their only dpssource effective versus battleships? At best a cruiseraven can be considered semieffective. If the DPS of a torpraven(close range dps) is your rationale for making cruisemissiles useless I just .. dont get it. While it is the same hull those 2 fits are so radically different that it might as well be 2 different ships and you will never have access to both weapon systems in any combat situation unless you gimp yourself. Should also be mentioned that the rigfits for optimalizing performance is different with these 2 setups.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:54:00 - [130] Originally by: Rip Striker Originally by: Gypsio III Cruise Raven must remain effective against HACs/Recons - just less effective than a Cerberus - otherwise it has no role. A cruise raven has the same range and more raw dps than any other gunnery sniper BS it should be no more effective against each class of ships than a gunnery sniper BS.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:32:00 - [131] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 14:59:07 Originally by: Gypsio III Cruise Raven must remain effective against HACs/Recons - just less effective than a Cerberus - otherwise it has no role. A cruise raven has the same range and more raw dps than any other gunnery sniper BS and it should be no more effective against each class of ships than a gunnery sniper BS. Cruise on a raven should be as effective against each of the ship classes in eve as 425mm rails, arties and beams are on a mega and all the other relavant tier two BS.... The same as torps are like blasters, AC, pulse..ect ect. No, your comparison between Cruise and turrets doesn't work because of the missile damage delay. Currently Cruise is well-balanced with the turret snipers, because of that damage delay, despite the higher paper DPS. Even so, Cruise is relegated to anti-support work, away from the true fleet snipers. So there's no reason to nerf that ability of Cruise to deal meaningful delayed damage to smaller targets any more than the balancing necessary to account for the speed changes. Cerberus must remain superior, but Cruise should not be quite as useless as the current missile stats make it - 70% damage reduction is too much with the missile flight time issue.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:04:00 - [132] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 16:07:40 Originally by: Gypsio III No, your comparison between Cruise and turrets doesn't work because of the missile damage delay. Currently Cruise is well-balanced with the turret snipers, because of that damage delay, despite the higher paper DPS. Even so, Cruise is relegated to anti-support work, away from the true fleet snipers. Cruise need a big nerf due to the fact they are BS sniper weapon system with all the dps that goes with it but can be fitted on frigs cruisers and BS. There need to be launchers for each class reducing the dps to ships of a smaller class like gunnery ships get with their rails ect.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:13:00 - [133] Which part of "delayed damage" do you not understand? also they are being tweaked allready (pretty much useless in their current state). Cruise missiles have no role (or very little) in PvP right now (current state on sisi I mean), as well as anyother long range slow-ass-missile which is quite stupid actually on TQ. Stealth bombers are an useless class allready: they have to shoot from range and hide fast, as it's their only defense, due to delayed damage and small (cruiser or frigs) ships being able to outrun/warp they are quite pointless. Teh failure of a signature.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:26:00 - [134] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 16:11:50 Cruise need a big nerf due to the fact they are BS sniper weapon system with all the dps that goes with it but can be fitted on frigs cruisers and BS. There need to be new launchers for each class of missile ship reducing the relative dps and range so they are balanced with rails, arties..ect ect. After all this is all about balance?. what cruiser can fit cruise? what frigate besides bombers (which get a role bonus of 99% grid usage reduction to cruise launchers) can fit cruise? are you **ing ****ed irl? seriously. and btw, even just in my tempest with tremor fitted I can 1 volley falcons, hitting things at 180km is no problem with BS sniping weapons. -----------------------------------
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:30:00 - [135] Edited by: Gypsio III on 20/10/2008 16:33:36 Originally by: Murina Cruise need a big nerf due to the fact they are BS sniper weapon system with all the dps that goes with it but can be fitted on frigs cruisers and BS. There need to be new launchers for each class of missile ship reducing the relative dps and range so they are balanced with rails, arties..ect ect. After all this is all about balance?. Frigates - stealth bombers - the entire point of them is to use Cruise. There is no turret counterpart. Cruisers - what cruiser fits Cruise? On a sensible, useful fit? Hmmm? BS - Indeed. And the Cruise Raven is fairly-well balanced on TQ currently. That's why fleet BS are turret snipers, with Cruise Ravens relegated to antisupport roles. Different ships and different weapon systems - heterogenous but well balanced. Some tweaks will certainly be necessary to account for general speed changes - but currently Sisi goes too far. Understand this - Cruise is a long-range weapon, but it is NOT a sniper weapon. TBH, your post resembles more an anti-missile rant rather than anything constructive. Do you want to have an ill-informed pop about the length of the missile skill tree as well? Or will you claim that a Cruise Raven is a better mission ship than a 350mm sentry-Domi?
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:33:00 - [136] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 16:35:21 Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Murina Cruise need a big nerf due to the fact they are BS sniper weapon system with all the dps that goes with it but can be fitted on frigs against cruisers and BS. There need to be new launchers for each class of missile ship (frig and BS0 reducing the relative dps and range so they are balanced with rails, arties..ect ect. After all this is all about balance?. what cruiser can fit cruise? what frigate besides bombers (which get a role bonus of 99% grid usage reduction to cruise launchers) can fit cruise? are you **ing ****ed irl? seriously. and btw, even just in my tempest with tremor fitted I can 1 volley falcons, hitting things at 180km is no problem with BS sniping weapons. My bad i did a typo so i fixed it. Cruise are way overpowered when used on bombers.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:41:00 - [137] Originally by: Murina Cruise are way overpowered when used on bombers. Only if you think they have a 3 second ROF and deal 800 DPS. In any case, SBs are nothing to do with Cruise Ravens. Different ships, different roles. Actually, I'm astonished that there's someone out there who thinks that Cruise is currently overpowered in PVP. It can be powerful - but only in certain niche roles - and can hardly be regarded as imbalanced.
Aya Vandenovich	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:04:00 - [138] Cruises just got changed on SISI, lower explosion radius (300) and velocity (55), but with a higher damage reduction (3.2).
Shard Merchant Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:45:00 - [139] Aw crap, its now a general thread. ¼_¼ I don't know if this falls under missile changes, but the Lachesis needs a fourth missile hardpoint (not high slot). _______________________________________________ CCP CENSORSHIP ALERT: CAN YOU SPOT IT?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:50:00 - [140] Originally by: Aya Vandenovich Cruises just got changed on SISI, lower explosion radius (300) and velocity (55), but with a higher damage reduction (3.2). Precisions also got changed to 200, 47, 2. Yeah lots of things have been changed... DRFs are different, but it looks like explosion radii have been reverted to TQ values. Presumably while they fiddle with variations in DRF etc...

Shard Merchant Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:22:00 - [141] Kayo, get on SISI _______________________________________________ CCP CENSORSHIP ALERT: CAN YOU SPOT IT?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:23:00 - [142] Edited by: lecrotta on 20/10/2008 18:27:01 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Aya Vandenovich Cruises just got changed on SISI, lower explosion radius (300) and velocity (55), but with a higher damage reduction (3.2). Precisions also got changed to 200, 47, 2. Yeah lots of things have been changed... DRFs are different, but it looks like explosion radii have been reverted to TQ values. Presumably while they fiddle with variations in DRF etc... Just tested and compared a raven with cruise against a ceptor and a mega rails against a ceptor. Both were fitted to hit at long/sniper range and did not use warriors II's. At standard tackling range the raven popped the ceptor doing 5000m/s in 80 seconds, while the mega did not hit it at all. Using a afterburner and doing 2000m/s the raven again popped the ceptor but took a minute longer while the mega again did not even hit it at all. This obviously needs balancing by either reducing cruise to a point where they also cannot hit interceptors or considerably boosting the tracking on BS so they can. We have yet to test other frigs and even destroyers so a post commenting on just how far cruise are off balance will be forthcoming.
s73v3n2k Caldari UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:27:00 - [143] I can't get on to test this but kinda hope ccp try to keep the dps much like it is now. I have just finished doing all the General missile skills to lvl 5 and don't want to think i have made a big mistake and wasted loads of skill training time again. Missiles to me seem to always be getting nerfed these days while other weapons are getting improved in some way or another. The speed changes are going to effect all weapon systems so are we going to see the tweaking of tracking on turrets to compensate for the increased dmg they will be able to do on small/fast ships ? This seems to be the reason for the missile changes so why not for turrets too ? I would kinda like it if you don't f*** us over again CCP.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:31:00 - [144] Quote: This obviously needs balancing by either reducing cruise to a point where they also cannot hit interceptors or considerably boosting the tracking on BS so they can. Missiles are not turrets and you shouldn't expect identical performance. That said, a bit more inty survivability than what you described would be sensible.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:36:00 - [145] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: This obviously needs balancing by either reducing cruise to a point where they also cannot hit interceptors or considerably boosting the tracking on BS so they can. Missiles are not turrets and you shouldn't expect identical performance. That said, a bit more inty survivability than what you described would be sensible. Both are sniper fit for each race and should be balanced as having one sniper fit that can kill any ship in the game while all the others cannot even hit small ships is way out of balance and seriously needs fixing. The raven has more dps and can even fit ewar, tank or just more sensor boosters with scan res rigs to make up missile travel time. Way broken and massivly overpowered.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:39:00 - [146] No, the Cruise Raven is not a sniper. Your comparison is absurd.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:41:00 - [147] Edited by: lecrotta on 20/10/2008 18:41:55 Originally by: Gypsio III No, the Cruise Raven is not a sniper. Your comparison is absurd. 450 raw dps at extreme ranges plus can fit a ok tank or ewar and hit the smallest combat ship in the game.........................your right its much more than just a standard crappy sniper.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:44:00 - [148] Yes, that's why all sniper fleets are composed solely of Cruise Ravens, aren't they?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:49:00 - [149] Originally by: Gypsio III Yes, that's why all sniper fleets are composed solely of Cruise Ravens, aren't they? They will be pal this is about balancing not turning cruise ravens into a pwn all killing machine. This speed nerf has made it way over balanced compared to every other sniper BS fit by a infinate ammount. Its quite simple, ravens can hit anything at any range other BS cannot hit at all...balance incoming.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:49:00 - [150] Originally by: Shard Merchant Kayo, get on SISI I'm at work! can't. :\| I will be on when I get home though -----------------------------------



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