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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
JaxxFunk Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:32:00 - [1] Edited by: JaxxFunk on 17/10/2008 15:32:37 The prerequisites for some of the certificates are broken (not to mention the fact that the description for Battleship Projetile Turrets basic says The holder is aware that projectile turrets use crystal ammunition which is not consumed on firing. ). For instance, a prerequisite for Battleship Projectile Turrets (standard) is Turret Control (standard), and a skill required for this is Controlled Bursts lvl3. Now why would a Projectile user need Controlled Bursts lvl3? Ninja edit: changed title You aint seen me...right
Kaahles Jion Keanturi Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.10.17 16:30:00 - [2] Because the projectile certificates are based on the standard gunnery certificates which includes the controlled bursts skill. About the descriptions: Yepp some of them are screwed up or maybe a bad joke, I got no idea. But still it isn't completly finished

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.17 17:34:00 - [3] Controlled Bursts thing is being addressed; have added the description bug to my "to fix" list. Thanks!

Research Rachel	Posted - 2008.10.17 21:57:00 - [4] also whats the point having mutlitasking as a req since it's pretty redundant. Even a titan can only have 8 targets, ms 6 and yet you want people to train it to get some of the certificates?
D4RT N3RDiUS	Posted - 2008.10.18 06:03:00 - [5] mate certificates are usseles and they was made from carebear to carebears... dont have ani sense i can fly hacs and recons and i dont have ani certificate becouse i need one industrial skill so i can have the cap certificate... LOL ...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.18 10:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Research Rachel also whats the point having mutlitasking as a req since it's pretty redundant. Even a titan can only have 8 targets, ms 6 and yet you want people to train it to get some of the certificates? Well, you do get 10 targets on a Rook or Basilisk. erm. I'd like to add that EWAR Operator - Elite, seems to have itself as a prereq. (And core targeting - Elite requires multitasking 5 is nuts) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.18 22:30:00 - [7] Edited by: Lost Hamster on 18/10/2008 22:34:19 Edited by: Lost Hamster on 18/10/2008 22:31:20 As all my bug reports are filtered for the certificates I would like to write them here // Please make this suggestion in an appropriate section of the forums. Thanks - Certamen So here we go: Definitive BUG: ---------------- ID: 63989 The pre-requisite of the Industrial harvesting - BASIC is Resource harvester - ELITE - it should be basic. ---------------- ID: 63988 The pre-requisite of the Mercoxit specialist BASIC is Resource harvester - ELITE - it should be basic. ---------------- ---------------- Re-designs: ID: 63987 I would like to suggest a redesign of the Leadership certificates. Especially the Armored warfare, Harvesting, Infromation Warfare, Sige, Skirmish warfare cert. I think that the basic level have a high pre-requisite (lvl 5 skill) I would decrease the pre-requisite to lvl 4. For the standard I would suggest either the lvl5 skill or the specialist lvl 2 skill. As the improved skill are missing I would create them with the attributes of the current standard levels. I believe that this changes would improve the Leadership certificates. --------------- ID: 63990 I would like to suggest the change of the Elite - propulsion jammer certificate. I believe that a elite certificate should show that the player is capable of using a heavy interdictors warp distruption field generator. To archive this the pre-requisite should contain: Graviton Physic lvl 4. ps: I have additional 14 bug reports for certificate which are attached to defect. :)
Clansworth Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.18 22:44:00 - [8] Some certificate oddities: Under Harvesting: The Common Ore Extractor and Rare Ore Extractor paths require the ore specific processing skills at Level V, though they do not affect extraction with anything higher than IV (to get tech 2 crystals) The Ore Refiner does NOT require the specific processing skills at all. Industrial Harvesting - Basic requires Resource Harvesting - Elite? (this in turn recommends getting Mining Upgrades to V, though it is hardly useful past IV for the tech 2 upgrades) Automated Mining - Standard somehow requires Amarr Industry - Prospector - Elite... Armor tanking? Under Leadership: Harvesting Comptroller - Standard requires Tactical Commander - Standard, which require Wing Command IV? That is a HUGE mining fleet for a 'Standard' mining director. This results in my Maxxed out Mining Director (bonuses maxxed, WITH implant) only having Harvesting Comptroller - Basic :eek Under Core: Core Tagetting requires Multitasking III??? that's a crapload more targets than most ships can come close to holding. Under Drones: Specialist Drone Operator - Any require training all 4 races, making you hardly a 'Specialized Drone Operator'. Needs to be broken down by race. No path apparent for non-combat drones (TP, ECM, Web, etc.) Under Navigation: Cartographer - Standard looks to already put you into the Tech 2 ship requirement (and at level IV Covert Ops?) Under Business and Industry: Production Manager - Basic requires Drug Manufacturing? Boosters should NOT be inthe normal production pipeline. Basically, as a veteran, I see some VERY big problems with the certificate system, and it's usefullness as it currently stands is a big zero. at nearly 40 million sp, I can run a MAXXED hulk, and get MAXIMUM yield, though I am only have Resource Harvester - Improved, and Common and Rare Ore extraction at Basic. I can run a 30 man Mining op, with maxed bonuses (without a rorqual), though my Harvesting Comptroller is at Basic :eek. How do these certificated relate my abilities in any way? The only Elite certs I have are Production Intern, and Ore Refiner. POS Personal Storage
Ryas Nia Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.19 08:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Clansworth Under Core: Core Tagetting requires Multitasking III??? that's a crapload more targets than most ships can come close to holding. I have yet to find a ship that allows more than 10 targets, which is targeting 5 + multitasking 3.
Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.19 09:19:00 - [10] Originally by: Clansworth Some certificate oddities: I'm glad that you found this problems as well. More to go: Gallente business - executive commander - basic ID: 63718 To have a similar requisite with the other executive commander skills the correct pre-requisit should be: from armored warfare lvl4 to -> repairs systems lvl4 Currently the Gallente business - executive commander had 2 warfare skill as pre-req. Caldari military solider - basic ID: 63717 The Caldari military solider - basic needs to be changed so it will be on the same level as the other race solider: pre-requisite should be: missile lanucher operation lvl 4 -> lvl 5 standard missile lvl3 -> lvl4 or 5. Industry Engineer - basic ID: 63716 This changes needs to be done to have all skill requirements on the same level minmatar: mass prod: lvl 3 industry lvl 5 -> lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 3 gallente: mass prod: lvl 3 industry lvl 4 -> lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 3 caldari mass prod: lvl 1 -> lvl 3 industry lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 5 -> lvl 3 amar: mass prod: lvl 3 industry lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 3 minmatar business - executive commander - basic ID: 63715 The pre-requires needs to changed from skirmish warfare lvl 3 to lvl 4 This is needed to have them on the same level for all skirmish warfare certification. Amarr industry prospector - basic ID: 63714 To get the certificate to the same level as all other prospector certificate: Industry lvl 4 needs to be changed to lvl 3 ECM Operator - standard ID:63710 The pre-requisite needs some adjustment: Electronic warfare lvl 5 > lvl 3 or 4 LVL4 is enough for all T2 devices so LVL 5 is not needed. Passive shield tanking - basic ID: 63674 the pre-requisite for Passive shield tanking basic is wrong. Currently it requires Active shield tanking - standard. I think it should be the basic only.
Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.19 09:51:00 - [11] Edited by: Lost Hamster on 19/10/2008 09:53:15 Some more for the Business and Industry category: Most of this suggestions are for re-balancing the certificates, but there are some bugs as well. Here we go: Production manager - basic No description pre-requisit should be changed from Production intern - elite to basic Supply chain management lvl 3 remove completly Advanced mass production lvl2 to mass production lvl2 Drug manufacturing lvl3 to lvl 1 ore remove it completly Production manager - standard No description pre-requisit should be changed from Drug manufacturing lvl5 to lvl 3 or remove it completly Advanced mass production lvl2 to mass production lvl5 Supply chain management lvl 3 to lvl 2 Production manager - improved No description pre-requisit should be changed from Advanced mass production lvl4 to lvl3 Supply chain management lvl 5 to lvl 4 Production manager - elite No description add as pre-requisit : Supply chain management lvl 5 Business Tycoon - basic No description pre-requisit should be changed from Business Mogul elite to basic Business Tycoon - standard No description pre-requisit should be changed from Procurement lvl 4 to lvl 3 accounting lvl 5 to lvl 3 daytrading lvl 5 to lvl 3 Business Tycoon - improved No description pre-requisit should be changed from Procurement lvl 5 to lvl 4 Margin trading lvl 5 to lvl 4 wholesale lvl 5 remove completly, as Trycoon lvl3 have wholesale lvl 5 as pre-requisite And put there instead off: daytrading lvl 4 Business Tycoon - elite No description Add as pre-requisite: Procurement lvl 5 Margin trading lvl 5 daytrading lvl 5
Trimutius III Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 10:06:00 - [12] Edited by: Trimutius III on 19/10/2008 10:06:29 Production Manager requires Drug Manufacturing though it's forbidden by CONCORD to manufacture them. It would be useful to make another certificate for it (like Illegal Production) It would be useful to make separate Cetificates for drones like: Amarr Drone Control, Gallente Drone Control, Caldari Drone Control, Minmatar Drone Control. Because I haven't trained Amarr Drones (i'm talking about my alt), because they seem to be quite useless to me, and i don't get any certificates for training 3 other specialisations. I can't understand Why Active shielding need Shield Upgrades (all modules that need shield upgrades are used in passive tanking as i think.) ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.19 10:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Research Rachel also whats the point having mutlitasking as a req since it's pretty redundant. Even a titan can only have 8 targets, ms 6 and yet you want people to train it to get some of the certificates? CCP Greyscale says it's being reduced so you only require Multitasking 3 for the elite cert.
Mark Interiis Gallente Disturbing Creations Laboratories Unlimited	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:39:00 - [14] There are modules that enhance the number of targets you ship can manage, once again making these last levels of skill viable.
Finnroth Caldari The Crimson Fraternity	Posted - 2008.10.20 14:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Mark Interiis There are modules that enhance the number of targets you ship can manage, once again making these last levels of skill viable. Noone right in his mind would use Auto Targeters. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ehrine Ashbark Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Finnroth Originally by: Mark Interiis There are modules that enhance the number of targets you ship can manage, once again making these last levels of skill viable. Noone right in his mind would use Auto Targeters. Actually, Signal Amplifier II (the lowslot sensor booster type module) also add +1 target so you'd only need a couple of them on a logistics ship or a destroyer to be able to target 12 targets at once (which would require multitasking 5). I do however feel that Targetting IV should be sufficient for "Core Targetting - Standard".

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:33:00 - [17] Whoops, forgot about this thread... Originally by: Lost Hamster So here we go: Definitive BUG: ---------------- ID: 63989 The pre-requisite of the Industrial harvesting - BASIC is Resource harvester - ELITE - it should be basic. ---------------- ID: 63988 The pre-requisite of the Mercoxit specialist BASIC is Resource harvester - ELITE - it should be basic. ---------------- ---------------- Re-designs: ID: 63987 I would like to suggest a redesign of the Leadership certificates. Especially the Armored warfare, Harvesting, Infromation Warfare, Sige, Skirmish warfare cert. I think that the basic level have a high pre-requisite (lvl 5 skill) I would decrease the pre-requisite to lvl 4. For the standard I would suggest either the lvl5 skill or the specialist lvl 2 skill. As the improved skill are missing I would create them with the attributes of the current standard levels. I believe that this changes would improve the Leadership certificates. --------------- ID: 63990 I would like to suggest the change of the Elite - propulsion jammer certificate. I believe that a elite certificate should show that the player is capable of using a heavy interdictors warp distruption field generator. To archive this the pre-requisite should contain: Graviton Physic lvl 4. - Still investigating Harvesting certs - The Chief certs are meant to represent an improved level of competence, hence the high base reqs. We're going to bump them up to standard/improved/elite rather than basic/standard/elite though - We'd prefer to keep interdiction stuff in its own cert for now


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Clansworth Some certificate oddities: Under Harvesting: The Common Ore Extractor and Rare Ore Extractor paths require the ore specific processing skills at Level V, though they do not affect extraction with anything higher than IV (to get tech 2 crystals) The Ore Refiner does NOT require the specific processing skills at all. Industrial Harvesting - Basic requires Resource Harvesting - Elite? (this in turn recommends getting Mining Upgrades to V, though it is hardly useful past IV for the tech 2 upgrades) Automated Mining - Standard somehow requires Amarr Industry - Prospector - Elite... Armor tanking? Under Leadership: Harvesting Comptroller - Standard requires Tactical Commander - Standard, which require Wing Command IV? That is a HUGE mining fleet for a 'Standard' mining director. This results in my Maxxed out Mining Director (bonuses maxxed, WITH implant) only having Harvesting Comptroller - Basic :eek Under Core: Core Tagetting requires Multitasking III??? that's a crapload more targets than most ships can come close to holding. Under Drones: Specialist Drone Operator - Any require training all 4 races, making you hardly a 'Specialized Drone Operator'. Needs to be broken down by race. No path apparent for non-combat drones (TP, ECM, Web, etc.) Under Navigation: Cartographer - Standard looks to already put you into the Tech 2 ship requirement (and at level IV Covert Ops?) Under Business and Industry: Production Manager - Basic requires Drug Manufacturing? Boosters should NOT be inthe normal production pipeline. Basically, as a veteran, I see some VERY big problems with the certificate system, and it's usefullness as it currently stands is a big zero. at nearly 40 million sp, I can run a MAXXED hulk, and get MAXIMUM yield, though I am only have Resource Harvester - Improved, and Common and Rare Ore extraction at Basic. I can run a 30 man Mining op, with maxed bonuses (without a rorqual), though my Harvesting Comptroller is at Basic :eek. How do these certificated relate my abilities in any way? The only Elite certs I have are Production Intern, and Ore Refiner. - As above, harvesting is being looked at some more, I agree it's odd currently. - Changed standard to have no Tactical Commander req, and bumped the improved one to require tac commander standard - Changed Core Targeting Standard to require multitasking 1 (and elite to require 3) - Lack of racial specialist drone certs is mainly because the system doesn't support doing "or" operators at this time. Lack of non-combat drone specialties is due if memory serves to having that set of certs trimmed as part of an effort to cut down on the total number of certs - Cartographer requirements are due to the huge bonuses you get from having the covops skill trained (and flying the appropriate ship) - Industry certs are also being looked at again


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Lost Hamster Originally by: Clansworth Some certificate oddities: I'm glad that you found this problems as well. More to go: Gallente business - executive commander - basic ID: 63718 To have a similar requisite with the other executive commander skills the correct pre-requisit should be: from armored warfare lvl4 to -> repairs systems lvl4 Currently the Gallente business - executive commander had 2 warfare skill as pre-req. Caldari military solider - basic ID: 63717 The Caldari military solider - basic needs to be changed so it will be on the same level as the other race solider: pre-requisite should be: missile lanucher operation lvl 4 -> lvl 5 standard missile lvl3 -> lvl4 or 5. Industry Engineer - basic ID: 63716 This changes needs to be done to have all skill requirements on the same level minmatar: mass prod: lvl 3 industry lvl 5 -> lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 3 gallente: mass prod: lvl 3 industry lvl 4 -> lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 3 caldari mass prod: lvl 1 -> lvl 3 industry lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 5 -> lvl 3 amar: mass prod: lvl 3 industry lvl 3 laboratory op. lvl 3 minmatar business - executive commander - basic ID: 63715 The pre-requires needs to changed from skirmish warfare lvl 3 to lvl 4 This is needed to have them on the same level for all skirmish warfare certification. Amarr industry prospector - basic ID: 63714 To get the certificate to the same level as all other prospector certificate: Industry lvl 4 needs to be changed to lvl 3 ECM Operator - standard ID:63710 The pre-requisite needs some adjustment: Electronic warfare lvl 5 > lvl 3 or 4 LVL4 is enough for all T2 devices so LVL 5 is not needed. Passive shield tanking - basic ID: 63674 the pre-requisite for Passive shield tanking basic is wrong. Currently it requires Active shield tanking - standard. I think it should be the basic only. - Basic profession certs are done based on what skills you get at character creation - in all these cases it's not consistent because the skills you get aren't consistent across races. The "bugged" condition for these certs are if you can't claim exactly one at character creation - The Ewar cert sets all require the cap-reducing skill at 5 for the standard level, because it didn't feel right to not ask for that until elite. If it's a big problem it can be changed - Passive shield tanking basic cert has been reworked to not require any active shield certs


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Lost Hamster Edited by: Lost Hamster on 19/10/2008 09:53:15 Some more for the Business and Industry category: Most of this suggestions are for re-balancing the certificates, but there are some bugs as well. Here we go: Production manager - basic No description pre-requisit should be changed from Production intern - elite to basic Supply chain management lvl 3 remove completly Advanced mass production lvl2 to mass production lvl2 Drug manufacturing lvl3 to lvl 1 ore remove it completly Production manager - standard No description pre-requisit should be changed from Drug manufacturing lvl5 to lvl 3 or remove it completly Advanced mass production lvl2 to mass production lvl5 Supply chain management lvl 3 to lvl 2 Production manager - improved No description pre-requisit should be changed from Advanced mass production lvl4 to lvl3 Supply chain management lvl 5 to lvl 4 Production manager - elite No description add as pre-requisit : Supply chain management lvl 5 Business Tycoon - basic No description pre-requisit should be changed from Business Mogul elite to basic Business Tycoon - standard No description pre-requisit should be changed from Procurement lvl 4 to lvl 3 accounting lvl 5 to lvl 3 daytrading lvl 5 to lvl 3 Business Tycoon - improved No description pre-requisit should be changed from Procurement lvl 5 to lvl 4 Margin trading lvl 5 to lvl 4 wholesale lvl 5 remove completly, as Trycoon lvl3 have wholesale lvl 5 as pre-requisite And put there instead off: daytrading lvl 4 Business Tycoon - elite No description Add as pre-requisite: Procurement lvl 5 Margin trading lvl 5 daytrading lvl 5 Will look into these further


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Trimutius III Edited by: Trimutius III on 19/10/2008 10:06:29 Production Manager requires Drug Manufacturing though it's forbidden by CONCORD to manufacture them. It would be useful to make another certificate for it (like Illegal Production) It would be useful to make separate Cetificates for drones like: Amarr Drone Control, Gallente Drone Control, Caldari Drone Control, Minmatar Drone Control. Because I haven't trained Amarr Drones (i'm talking about my alt), because they seem to be quite useless to me, and i don't get any certificates for training 3 other specialisations. I can't understand Why Active shielding need Shield Upgrades (all modules that need shield upgrades are used in passive tanking as i think.) - Booster manufacturing reqs are being investigated - This is due to the inability to set OR conditions (see above) - Shield Upgrades gives access to extenders and resistance amplifiers

Uzume Ame	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:11:00 - [22] Originally by: CCP Greyscale - The Ewar cert sets all require the cap-reducing skill at 5 for the standard level, because it didn't feel right to not ask for that until elite. If it's a big problem it can be changed All ECM setups I can use (on my main) are cap-stable with this skill at 4, be them on a falcon, blackbird or scorpion, only frig sized ships may have some problem but still are fine if I recall right. So yep I would change it to lvl 4, is more than enough. Teh failure of a signature.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:21:00 - [23] Production Efficiency is underrated for the manufacturing certificates. Level five should be required for standard, if not basic. Refining related certificates should be tweaked to better reflect the skills needed to refine at specific refining equipment levels. Scrapmetal processing could do with being separated from the ore processing skills.
Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:56:00 - [24] Thanks Greyscale for looking into. :)
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens	Posted - 2008.10.20 20:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Uzume Ame Originally by: CCP Greyscale - The Ewar cert sets all require the cap-reducing skill at 5 for the standard level, because it didn't feel right to not ask for that until elite. If it's a big problem it can be changed All ECM setups I can use (on my main) are cap-stable with this skill at 4, be them on a falcon, blackbird or scorpion, only frig sized ships may have some problem but still are fine if I recall right. So yep I would change it to lvl 4, is more than enough. I'm in agreement with this one. I have the skill to 4 and never have any cap issues whatsoever in any ECM ship. 4 would be more than enough for all certs except Elite (which is supposed to be nber). Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:21:00 - [26] mhm tempest is shield tanker with 5 mid slots mhm intresting thinking :D http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg guide ninja edited already hidden topic: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:14:00 - [27] Edited by: Rid*** Valer on 21/10/2008 00:15:05* Higher level armor tanking certs require core integrity, which require Shield Management????? I understand why its needed for core integrity, but it shouldn't carry over to a Armor tanking specialization cert. Also, using Amarr drone spec for anything is suspect.
Bob Niac Gallente Kahi Mohala Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:24:00 - [28] ID: 64001 Certifaction - Passive Shield Tanking Basic (Incorrect Pre-Req) This cert requires the "Standard" of active tanking .. is this right?
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2008.10.21 12:23:00 - [29] Edited by: Ydyp Ieva on 21/10/2008 12:23:32 Hmm Ice specialist requiring basic ore extraction?
PeHD0M	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:48:00 - [30] Certificates are almost useless currently, because there are no "ship certificates". When someone is trying to enter player corporation he usually being asked: what ship can you fly? I mean, what the point of all these specialisation certificates, if i still can't show to someone what ships i can use in combat? And btw, why you didn't simply create ingame method of showing your skill to someone directly? How can i show tmy skills to one single person, while not making them complitely public so every one can see them?

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Ancy Denaries Originally by: Uzume Ame Originally by: CCP Greyscale - The Ewar cert sets all require the cap-reducing skill at 5 for the standard level, because it didn't feel right to not ask for that until elite. If it's a big problem it can be changed All ECM setups I can use (on my main) are cap-stable with this skill at 4, be them on a falcon, blackbird or scorpion, only frig sized ships may have some problem but still are fine if I recall right. So yep I would change it to lvl 4, is more than enough. I'm in agreement with this one. I have the skill to 4 and never have any cap issues whatsoever in any ECM ship. 4 would be more than enough for all certs except Elite (which is supposed to be nber). Moved the 5 req to Elite Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Production Efficiency is underrated for the manufacturing certificates. Level five should be required for standard, if not basic. Refining related certificates should be tweaked to better reflect the skills needed to refine at specific refining equipment levels. Scrapmetal processing could do with being separated from the ore processing skills. We're rejigging the entire Production series, folding them into one set of certs. Have bumped PE to 5 in standard as part of that. Having some people look at the refining certs right now. If you've got some hard-numbers suggestions we'll factor them in to discussions Originally by: Lost Hamster Business Tycoon - basic No description pre-requisit should be changed from Business Mogul elite to basic Business Tycoon - standard No description pre-requisit should be changed from Procurement lvl 4 to lvl 3 accounting lvl 5 to lvl 3 daytrading lvl 5 to lvl 3 Business Tycoon - improved No description pre-requisit should be changed from Procurement lvl 5 to lvl 4 Margin trading lvl 5 to lvl 4 wholesale lvl 5 remove completly, as Trycoon lvl3 have wholesale lvl 5 as pre-requisite And put there instead off: daytrading lvl 4 Business Tycoon - elite No description Add as pre-requisite: Procurement lvl 5 Margin trading lvl 5 daytrading lvl 5 I don't understand the logic behind changing the prereq to basic - can you explain why you think this is a good idea? Other stuff listed here has met with nods of approval from other people I've bounced it off, so I've changed them to match. Production stuff has all been rejigged as mentioned above

Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.23 19:38:00 - [32] Edited by: Lost Hamster on 23/10/2008 19:42:29 Edited by: Lost Hamster on 23/10/2008 19:41:51 Originally by: CCP Greyscale I don't understand the logic behind changing the prereq to basic - can you explain why you think this is a good idea? - I believe that a basic certificate should not depend on a elite certificate. - And from the skill requirement: Business mogul elite requires: Trade 5, Marketing 5, Broker relation 5. But the skills which are required for Daytrading, Wholesale, Procurement don't requires this high level skills. The max what you need is Trade 4, marketing 2. - I play usually with the market, and I never felt that I need trade lvl5, it's a to loooong skill to train it up. I'm better with a tycoon 4 that trade 5. And it's almost the same training time (trade takes longer). - Broker relation is good, to reduce the fees, but only those will train to lvl5 who are really a trader, as that skill is a lvl2 skill, so with average skills 10+ days to train up. If you believe basic is to low, then maybe try with Improved, Elite is a bit overkill for that basic certificate. Standard could be good as well, but that requires only trade 2 not 4 what you really need for the pre-req. Edit: It could be that this is my last post for a wile, My account is expiring today, and I don't know when will I have the IRL time to play again. I hope that I can meet with some of the Devs on the fanfest, maybe you will be there too, and we could continue the discussion there.

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Lost Hamster Edited by: Lost Hamster on 23/10/2008 19:42:29 Edited by: Lost Hamster on 23/10/2008 19:41:51 Originally by: CCP Greyscale I don't understand the logic behind changing the prereq to basic - can you explain why you think this is a good idea? - I believe that a basic certificate should not depend on a elite certificate. - And from the skill requirement: Business mogul elite requires: Trade 5, Marketing 5, Broker relation 5. But the skills which are required for Daytrading, Wholesale, Procurement don't requires this high level skills. The max what you need is Trade 4, marketing 2. - I play usually with the market, and I never felt that I need trade lvl5, it's a to loooong skill to train it up. I'm better with a tycoon 4 that trade 5. And it's almost the same training time (trade takes longer). - Broker relation is good, to reduce the fees, but only those will train to lvl5 who are really a trader, as that skill is a lvl2 skill, so with average skills 10+ days to train up. If you believe basic is to low, then maybe try with Improved, Elite is a bit overkill for that basic certificate. Standard could be good as well, but that requires only trade 2 not 4 what you really need for the pre-req. Edit: It could be that this is my last post for a wile, My account is expiring today, and I don't know when will I have the IRL time to play again. I hope that I can meet with some of the Devs on the fanfest, maybe you will be there too, and we could continue the discussion there. Ok, this makes sense. We'll have a look at changing it to Standard or Improved. Thanks for the feedback - I'll give you a beer token at Fanfest if you can find me

Suicidal Hamster Hamster Holding Corp	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:18:00 - [34] Edited by: Suicidal Hamster on 23/10/2008 20:18:48 Originally by: CCP Greyscale I'll give you a beer token at Fanfest if you can find me Will try. :) : ops.. my alt..
Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:58:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Greyscale I'll give you a beer token at Fanfest if you can find me Actually, will you be there at all?

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:27:00 - [36] Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 23/10/2008 21:27:39 I've got a talk and stuff scheduled, so probably yes Oh, and we fixed the controlled bursts issue, seems I forgot to mention that so far

DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:06:00 - [37] Hi, Several trade/industry related certificates have Trade V as a requirement however ingame Trade V is not a requirement for anything. Skill plan all trade related skills 1. Retail I (14 minutes, 25 seconds) 2. Retail II (1 hour, 7 minutes, 12 seconds) 3. Retail III (6 hours, 20 minutes, 6 seconds) 4. Retail IV (1 day, 11 hours, 50 minutes, 21 seconds) 5. Retail V (8 days, 10 hours, 44 minutes, 12 seconds) 6. Wholesale I (27 minutes, 32 seconds) 7. Wholesale II (2 hours, 8 minutes, 17 seconds) 8. Wholesale III (12 hours, 5 minutes, 42 seconds) 9. Wholesale IV (2 days, 20 hours, 25 minutes, 14 seconds) 10. Wholesale V (16 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes, 35 seconds) 11. Marketing III (9 hours, 4 minutes, 16 seconds) 12. Marketing IV (2 days, 3 hours, 18 minutes, 55 seconds) 13. Tycoon I (41 minutes, 19 seconds) 14. Tycoon II (3 hours, 12 minutes, 27 seconds) 15. Tycoon III (18 hours, 8 minutes, 32 seconds) 16. Tycoon IV (4 days, 6 hours, 37 minutes, 51 seconds) 17. Trade III (3 hours, 10 minutes, 2 seconds) 18. Trade IV (17 hours, 55 minutes, 10 seconds) 19. Accounting I (20 minutes, 39 seconds) 20. Accounting II (1 hour, 36 minutes, 13 seconds) 21. Accounting III (9 hours, 4 minutes, 16 seconds) 22. Accounting IV (2 days, 3 hours, 18 minutes, 55 seconds) 23. Contracting I (6 minutes, 53 seconds) 24. Contracting II (32 minutes, 5 seconds) 25. Contracting III (3 hours, 1 minute, 24 seconds) 26. Contracting IV (17 hours, 6 minutes, 18 seconds) 27. Broker Relations II (1 hour, 7 minutes, 12 seconds) 28. Broker Relations III (6 hours, 20 minutes, 6 seconds) 29. Broker Relations IV (1 day, 11 hours, 50 minutes, 21 seconds) 30. Daytrading I (6 minutes, 53 seconds) 31. Daytrading II (32 minutes, 5 seconds) 32. Daytrading III (3 hours, 1 minute, 24 seconds) 33. Daytrading IV (17 hours, 6 minutes, 18 seconds) 34. Margin Trading I (20 minutes, 39 seconds) 35. Margin Trading II (1 hour, 36 minutes, 13 seconds) 36. Margin Trading III (9 hours, 4 minutes, 16 seconds) 37. Margin Trading IV (2 days, 3 hours, 18 minutes, 55 seconds) 38. Procurement II (1 hour, 36 minutes, 13 seconds) 39. Procurement III (9 hours, 4 minutes, 16 seconds) 40. Procurement IV (2 days, 3 hours, 18 minutes, 55 seconds) 41. Visibility I (20 minutes, 39 seconds) 42. Visibility II (1 hour, 36 minutes, 13 seconds) 43. Visibility III (9 hours, 4 minutes, 16 seconds) 44. Visibility IV (2 days, 3 hours, 18 minutes, 55 seconds) - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Grojar Flesp Gallente SQS Group	Posted - 2008.11.01 11:04:00 - [38] Harvest comptroller Improved Why do i need to have Command Ships lvl 2 trained to be this? I don't use Command Ships at all for my mining Ops. Perhaps one could include the Orca or Rorqual in this, not the battle stuff. ------------------------- This is so much fun to watch, it's like a kick in the crotch I can't watch this -------------------------
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.01 16:16:00 - [39] Originally by: Finnroth Originally by: Mark Interiis There are modules that enhance the number of targets you ship can manage, once again making these last levels of skill viable. Noone right in his mind would use Auto Targeters. Tech 2 Logistics cruisers have a 10 target base. The carrier Triage Module adds 4 to the max targets, allowing carriers in triage to lock 10 targets as well. This is on par with Multitasking 3.
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.11.01 22:58:00 - [40] I'm not sure I get the point - why not just give someone your API or have a certificate sheet that you can pass out in game that shows that you do indeed have the skills they are asking for? It sounds instead like we'll have to carry around a certificate for each skill =(
Drake Doon Minmatar X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2008.11.02 07:23:00 - [41] Refinery Forman - Standard Requires: Refinery Foreman - Basic (Refining Level 3) Refining Level 5 Refining Efficiency Level 1 Metallurgy Level 2 Scrapmetal Processing Level 2 Only problem is, Scrapmetal Processing level 1 requires you train Refining Efficiency to Level 5 and Metallurgy to Level 5 which are at the Refinery Foreman - Elite certification level. Might suggest taking Scrapmetal out of the Refinery Foreman certifications and make it a specialist certification much like the Ice Specialist (i.e., Scrapmetal Specialist - Improved).
Maiquel	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:26:00 - [42] Originally by: Drake Doon Refinery Forman - Standard Requires: Refinery Foreman - Basic (Refining Level 3) Refining Level 5 Refining Efficiency Level 1 Metallurgy Level 2 Scrapmetal Processing Level 2 Only problem is, Scrapmetal Processing level 1 requires you train Refining Efficiency to Level 5 and Metallurgy to Level 5 which are at the Refinery Foreman - Elite certification level. Might suggest taking Scrapmetal out of the Refinery Foreman certifications and make it a specialist certification much like the Ice Specialist (i.e., Scrapmetal Specialist - Improved). Yes or replace Scrapmetal with a common ore like Plagioclase.
Musashibou Benkei Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:32:00 - [43] Nice to see at least some GM's are giving us, the player community, some feedback at all. Salute to you for that \o Me personally; I don't really care much for the certificates jazz. It's just another way of waving around your e-peen. :P P.S. Please let CCP Nozh know that if he doesn't stop making stupid posts such as suggesting we fit guns smaller than large on our battleships and such, I will personally find him, burn his house down and shove his face in the ashes of his burnt down house for having that job when he has no clue about playing this game instead of Warhammer or something
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:58:00 - [44] Not sure if this has been noted, but ill say it anyway.. Theres an interdiction certificate. (improved/standard? not sure...) It requires astrometrics 3. Now u dont even need astrometrics 1 to operate a hic bubble. Astrometrics is for scanning..wtf? EVE history Missiles post-nerf
Draahk Chimera Caldari Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.13 12:14:00 - [45] I think there are too many "useless" skills as pre req for many of the certificates. We talked about this on Vent last night. You're just using the cerificates to "trick" noobs to train skills no one else does. I for example have 48m skillpoints and consider myself "maxed" in some areas, navigation and fitting for example. But I still barely makes "basic" in theese areas. Fitting becasue I havent trained Multitasking 1. Now who train that skill? No one on vent last night anyway. Same for navigation: Afterburner 5 and Fuel conservation 4 arent exactly necissary, actually they are a waste of training time better used elsewhere. With AB 4 and Fuel 2 I can permarun a t2 afterbunrer on a ship with no capacitor modules. In fact I can peramarun an AB II, a cap neut and a t2 warp disruptor at approx 45% cap. Anyways, I know theese things after 3.5 years in EVE, but a new guy might be tricked into training AB 5 and Targeting 5 and then slap himself (or a dev) when one year later he realize he wasted 2 weeks on that.
Lost Hamster Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.13 12:53:00 - [46] Bug ID: 64796 Gallente Industry - Engineer - standard This certificate is missing the ship part, what the other 3 certificate have. That is the Gallente frigate lvl 3. What is funny, that I reported this bug on the 05.11.2008, and no one have looked the bug report.
RU Pondering	Posted - 2008.11.13 19:05:00 - [47] I don't have my client handy at work, but I remember the Ice Harvester Improved cert required something like Harvester Standard. It makes sense until I saw that the Harvesting Standard cert (which i don't have) requires Mining Drone 3. Mining Drones for Ice Harvesting? I'll update this when I get a chance to log into a client
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.11.14 08:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Ryas Nia Originally by: Clansworth Under Core: Core Tagetting requires Multitasking III??? that's a crapload more targets than most ships can come close to holding. I have yet to find a ship that allows more than 10 targets, which is targeting 5 + multitasking 3. Any 10 target ship with signal amp II or auto targeter I can lock 12 that is absolute maximum currently. Base 10 target ships are logistic ships and marauders. There should be few more but I do not know them from the top of my head. So in my opinion multitasking is justified under core targeting.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens	Posted - 2008.11.14 10:56:00 - [49] Most of the harvesting lineup of Certs are completely and utterly roflcopter lolz. Is there ANYONE (that doesn't live in deep 0.0) that ever trained ore processing to 5? There is no incentive to do that unless you're stuck in a 30% 0.0 station. It is certainly not something a newb would do (and processing 5 is actually a requirement to even get standard harvesting certs). I mean....HELLO? Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Tsual Minmatar Iikhelahii khulemah'lal	Posted - 2008.11.14 16:47:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Greyscale - This is due to the inability to set OR conditions (see above) Basicly means there is no NOT condition?
Criswell White Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2008.11.26 18:35:00 - [51] Originally by: PeHD0M Certificates are almost useless currently, because there are no "ship certificates". When someone is trying to enter player corporation he usually being asked: what ship can you fly? I mean, what the point of all these specialisation certificates, if i still can't show to someone what ships i can use in combat? And btw, why you didn't simply create ingame method of showing your skill to someone directly? How can i show tmy skills to one single person, while not making them complitely public so every one can see them? I'd like to set my certificate set to "visible to corp" or "invisible to corp".
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2008.11.27 04:04:00 - [52] Originally by: D4RT N3RDiUS mate certificates are usseles and they was made from carebear to carebears... dont have ani sense i can fly hacs and recons and i dont have ani certificate becouse i need one industrial skill so i can have the cap certificate... LOL ... Even Industrial certs dont make a whole lot of sense. Research manager needs to be able to have advanced production (are you researching BPO's or are you making from them? apparently one is suppose to do both and not have a choice....) Or Jaspet refine to lvl 3, for basic refining when its not even a high sec ore.... Even though I do both mining and refining... why is the prospector cert require both mining and refining, isnt a prospector the harvester, the gatherer? The cert requires a person to be both.
Ka'loor Amarr Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:09:00 - [53] Edited by: Ka''loor on 27/11/2008 20:10:33 Originally by: Ancy Denaries Most of the harvesting lineup of Certs are completely and utterly roflcopter lolz. Is there ANYONE (that doesn't live in deep 0.0) that ever trained ore processing to 5? There is no incentive to do that unless you're stuck in a 30% 0.0 station. It is certainly not something a newb would do (and processing 5 is actually a requirement to even get standard harvesting certs). I mean....HELLO? I can only agree here. I have a char trained for PERFECT miner with a hulk and implants and drones and whatnot. Now comes the hard part. High sec only. Cause im not in an 0.0 alliance, and low sec, well theres no one mining there in full force. Now i will never get that elite cert, because im missing jaspet (dont know the last time i found that in 0.5 or above :S) and Mining upgrades lvl5. Now seriously lvl5 for that? My hulk has already the best mods installed which only need lvl4 and can still fit an ore scanner. The Mackie is perfectly fitted and cant fit a scanner, but then again were talking about ice here. And While i can understand that elites need some ludicrous lvl5 skills it makes no sense for improved. Im a Beam user mainly, so getting those last 4% out off falloff just doesnt make too much sense, when i have the shortest falloff of all weapons. So why need it for improved energy user? I have the skills to get elite status if improve didnt need that not really too important skill. Energy weapons get a boost out of extra falloff, but how often? But it does have 1 advantage. Certs will always undervalue me. Unfortunately they also undervalue everyone else. But in pvp they never knwo how good i actually am. Currently its mroe for Epeen that actual gauging of a chars effectiveness. Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself. Better to die with honor, than to live in shame.

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