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Ghost Training interview with Torfi Frans over at MMORPG.com

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Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.21 23:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Thargat Some CCP employees claim it's a bug, others that's it was a feature? How (on ANY level) is that lying. It became a feature when they made the official discission to "fix" Serenity, to keep it on Tranquility and promote it in the knowledge base. While there is nothing wrong with disagreeing about the feature being good or bad, say that it was unintended, would at this point be a lie. It would be like claiming Warp-To-Zero is a bug. Sure you could make the point that it was originally an unintended feature, but there comes a point where unintended feature are actual features and cannot be called bugs. Quote: This whole story becomes a little bit more convoluted when you add in the fact that when EVE launched in China, the bug was actually patched out of the game. It seems that their partners in that region felt that the ability to advance without payment was a bit out of the ordinary. At the time of the Chinese launch, CCP did not see a large number of people making use of Ghost Training in their original market and so did not see a need to correct the problem. ôAt the time,ö Torfi explained, ôwe had not introduced EVE time codes. Everyone was using credit card subscriptions so it was more of an effort to un-subscribe and re-subscribe than it is today. ThatÆs why it wasnÆt such a common play style back then.ö Maybe Torfi would like to tell us what he actually said, or perhaps when time codes were introduced. But that is stretching the truth a bit much. I know that for myself, when the patch notes for Revelations included the bit about ghost training being retained on TQ, it was already an integral part of my game play, as was the use of time codes.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.21 23:54:00 - [62] I don't like bashing on CCP. As an oldtime gamer and even GM in a(n old) MMO I feel this game is really the best MMO so far created, and I know how hard customer relation work is (and how limited your actions are, you can't tell players very much). But honestly, Torfi really needs to stop talking on behalf of CCP. He told players this change was to reduce the load on servers. And in the interview he tells mmorpg.com it was to make the game 'fair'. Is mmorpg lying or is Torfi? I'm sure he's a nice guy, and probably a gamer just like he describe himself. He obviously isn't a PR guy, and for the sake of the game I love, please make him stop writing blogs and take interviews. He's not a master of spinning, by far.. I really don't want this masterpiece game down the drain because of players reaction to some guy that isn't chosing his words, or getting misquoted, or whatever. Please. Just get someone who can talk to people to talk to people? Ok? Thanks. No offense man, I have no clue who the hell you are. Maybe you deserve alot of praise for your work at EVE. But atm you're making things worse. Good luck.
Blastil	Posted - 2008.10.22 00:08:00 - [63] Edited by: Blastil on 22/10/2008 00:09:03 In particular, this bit from the article didn't click right. Quote: ôAt the time,ö Torfi explained, ôwe had not introduced EVE time codes. Everyone was using credit card subscriptions so it was more of an effort to un-subscribe and re-subscribe than it is today. ThatÆs why it wasnÆt such a common play style back then.ö With the removal of 30 and 90 day GTC's, doesn't that make Ghost Training uneconomical in the FIRST PLACE? Seriously HOW FEW SKILLS TAKE MORE THAN 60 DAYS TO TRAIN?! At the MOST people are getting $14.95 off their actual price to play the game with an alt they will probably sell for ISK later ANYWAY. Besides, given the current economic times, losing 1 out of every 24 players who pay just a little less often than others is STUPID. No mater how insulated from the bad tiems you are.
Shard Merchant Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.22 00:19:00 - [64] Public relations damage control. _______________________________________________ CCP CENSORSHIP ALERT: CAN YOU SPOT IT?
Spurious Soul Amarr VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 00:22:00 - [65] the dollar and economy has shit itself and this is ccp ways of bumping up funds plain and simple ive had to drop from 3 to 1 account as we have gone from 96c to 60c against the us dollar any other reasons are bullshit, its just a money grab
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.22 00:24:00 - [66] This topic is dead. Same arguments again and again and nothing important can come out of it. So let's move on. P.S: If you can still read this, I wanted to say to the people that cancelled all their accounts that, while I disagree with you and think you are leaving a great game, I appreciate your courage to leave something that was important for you in order to show what you think. And I hope you can reconsider and rejoin in the future if you feel the game is really worth it. For me action is more significant than anything that can be said here. Or as the Romans said "Res non Verba" (Deeds not Words.) ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.22 01:20:00 - [67] Originally by: Shard Merchant Public relations damage control. is an Epic Fail seriously.. torfi might be a good programmer or designer or whatever but please please please dont let him atempt PR ever again as for the boss Hellmar why dont you atempt some PR ? i just want a bloddy appology but i keep reading more lies :/
Lord XSiV Amarr GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection	Posted - 2008.10.22 01:41:00 - [68] Edited by: Lord XSiV on 22/10/2008 01:42:07 Boy you people are stupid. 1. CCP does not care about its clients. You are nothing more than addicts who rely upon CCP to provide your 'fix'. If you think contrary, you are sadly mistaken. This allows them to say whatever they want. Blah, blah, pretty shiny graphics; or how about the one about massive 1000+ ship battles? If you haven't figured it out that these northerners act like Loki on a sugar rush then you deserve what you get. Trusting CCP to consider the player community when making decisions is like expecting Warren Buffet to take financial advice from a village of mexican aliens living in backwater Indiana. So get used to it if you haven't already. Your only hope will be when EA buys CCP and even then it will take a year before the remaining CCP employees will have left. But the bonus will be: 1. Direct isk sales for cash 2. Erradication of the starving/poor student/useless bum who needs to get a job and move out from parents basement 3. Some real gear to run those 1000+ ship battles 4. The original devs to come back; not the current content monkeys calling themselves devs 5. Fixes to game mechanics in a reasonable timeframe 6. More cannon fodder as the population increases dramatically But in the meantime, I will continue to enjoy watching CCP torture its client base. If anything, I would hire CCP staff for their management capabilities based upon their management of their clients - ignore as if they don't exist and throw them a bone like the 'CSM free trip to Iceland' when they get all cagey.
ForceMajeure	Posted - 2008.10.22 02:03:00 - [69] So let me add this up...I know CCP is Icelandic but its making about as much policy sense as the US Federal Reserve. First, they remove 30 & 90 day GTC. Second, they raise the price on 60 day cards throwing the supply/demand ratio in to a frenzy. Third, fail to provide a useful means of transacting efficient GTC sales. Forth, cancel ghost training which will cause another shock to the GTC market. So after nearly 3 years of paying for 2 sometimes 3 accounts spending about a thousand USD, I decided to try and by GTCs for one of my three accounts, but the market is ******d up. Thanks Guys! And I'd believe that "it was not out of pure money, greed or lust" had they not jacked the GTCs to hell. Raise the Real $ cost of GTCs which decreases the supply of GTCs resulting in a massive ISK cost increase which makes buying GTCs more profitable in terms of isk and thus people buy more to sell. Like magic, more money for CCP. So yeah, its all about the benjamins. Saddens me as I've spent so much time with this game. I having SOE/Planetside flashbacks. Once a company starts trying to squeeze money out of a game it fails.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.10.22 02:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Malcanis And then try and tell us that inactive accounts are a significant load on the database... Really? Where's that stated? Now... here it is.. I am saving it to posterity on EVE-Files: Devblog - w/ implied database issues.. LOL Torfi... No matter what Torfi says, fact is a fact, they have lied repeatedly, tried to deflect the issue on to something else, try to evade as much as they could. When all they had to do is come out and say that they needed money, it is unfair that they are not getting paid for everything. We would still ***, but at least we the players would not feel like complete morons for trusting these people. What they did was an insult to all people with modiof intelligence, why the hell do you guys need to lie?!!!! People get implied database issues from that?!?!?** Damn, remind me not to ask for a Black Forest Cake from you people,,, Improve Market Competition!
Danae Ori	Posted - 2008.10.22 03:26:00 - [71] To those LOSERS complaining, go get some real-life experience, boys. CCP isn't a charity.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.22 03:36:00 - [72] Originally by: Lord XSiV Boy you people are stupid. 1. CCP does not care about its clients...tl;dr Can I have your stuff? _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.22 03:40:00 - [73] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. OK wise guy. Part one I totally agree with, I think buying real game time with in game current is ******s.(If you really* think about it in regards to the way you responded, you should actually be against this as well.) Also what does Eve's server have to do with anything? Your trying to hard. Easy down, easy down.
Lord XSiV Amarr GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection	Posted - 2008.10.22 03:45:00 - [74] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Lord XSiV Boy you people are stupid. 1. CCP does not care about its clients...tl;dr Can I have your stuff? Why? Do you think I am quiting or something? Did I say I was? Nah, I think you are just one of the stupid; or the bums who needs to get a job instead of begging. In fact, I am one of those loyal subs who pays yearly with a cc (because unlike most of you stupid people, I actually qualify for one that has a limit higher than the cost of an ipod) so I have no issues with this 'ghost training' nerf. Nor the gtc nerf. Nor the nano nerf.... For me the entertainment is seeing how low the s****of the internet will grovel to get their smack.
Loyal Servant Caldari PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.10.22 05:54:00 - [75] I paid CCP a LOT of money over the years. I never knowingly or intentionally ghost trained either. The fact of the matter, and the point that you fanboys seem to miss is the fact that you lie once, then again, and again and again... Did your parents ever teach any of you kids the story of the boy who cried wolf? Let me tell it to you.... Quote: There was once a shepherd-boy who kept his flock at a little distance from the village. Once he thought he would play a trick on the villagers and have some fun at their expense. So he ran toward the village crying out, with all his might,-- "Wolf! Wolf! Come and help! The wolves are at my lambs!" The kind villagers left their work and ran to the field to help him. But when they got there the boy laughed at them for their pains; there was no wolf there. Still another day the boy tried the same trick, and the villagers came running to help and got laughed at again. Then one day a wolf did break into the fold and began killing the lambs. In great fright, the boy ran for help. "Wolf! Wolf!" he screamed. "There is a wolf in the flock! Help!" The villagers heard him, but they thought it was another mean trick; no one paid the least attention, or went near him. And the shepherd-boy lost all his sheep. That is the kind of thing that happens to people who lie: even when they tell the truth no one believes them. Now Where has CCP told the truth about an issue before they lied at least 3-4 times, then they finally break down and tell the truth in the end? Virtually every time there is a controversial issue. Oh, and dear god don't find out about it and ask CCP to come clean because they will invoke the 'we can ban you without cause' clause and just ban you like Kugutsumen? The damage from T20 is STILL visible all this time later. Nobody trusts bob, the tinfoil hattery runs very deep to this day and I watched as the T20 incident ripped thru my former corp and alliance like wildfire and was actually another nail in the coffin. (TSDS and TSBS) All we did for days is spin lies and deceit and tin foil hattery all because they just would NOT come clean. We did not play, we sat in the station spinning ships arguing on vent. This is going on right now in many circles.. 'CCP lies again, just like T20' Remember, the boy who cried wolf. Live by it, tell the fracking truth.
Alex Salas BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.22 06:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Treenara Mazouk Originally by: Winterblink I would venture a guess that part of that analysis was a focus on long training skills. And over time it's not hard to accumulate data like # of accounts that resub, login, change skills, and unsub. What are you trying to say here? That folks over at CCP Games are a bunch of intelligent people who can sort through data and analyze it to make informative decisions. Wow, jaw dropping info you've just unearthed there! Next, you're going to tell us they have a couple of PhDs working there as well! C'mon, you're pulling my leg! No shiat! But the logs apparently have a bad habit of showing nothing! ___ EVE lies...rotating FTL!!! http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=99 On the Serenity server, skills no longer train when the owning account is deactivated. Tranqu
Brother Welcome Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:02:00 - [77] I've said my piece elsewhere, and others have made the same points better than I, however I've this to add. I'm surprised that some have bought into the line that the paramount purpose of business is to make money, and that's really the only moral justification they need. It is not the sole purpose of human endeavour to make money. Come back to the real world. Businesses exist to provide things people need to use, or enjoy using. There is no shame in offering better than fair value. Had CCP entered this with an honest statement and some quid pro quo, such as 'Guys, we're not comfortable with SPs being gained cheaper than we intended so we want to pause training when accounts go inactive, but we'll bring you in a skill queue to help active players train easier' I believe few would have objected. I'm not going to blame the spokesman: that's simply shooting the messenger. CCP took this decision as a company, and no doubt produced the company line that Torfi Frans is following. Nor am I going to argue much further. Eve is not so important as all that. -vk
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:04:00 - [78] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Malcanis And then try and tell us that inactive accounts are a significant load on the database... Really? Where's that stated? In the special snowflake blog.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:23:00 - [79] dont matter it was an economic exploit and has been closed
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:34:00 - [80] This thread is 100% pure comedy gold. I would like to subscribe to all your newsletters.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:43:00 - [81] Originally by: daemorhedron Another interesting thing is that City of Heroes is actually putting something like Ghost Training IN to the game next update. What CoH is introducing is training while offline. Much like what we still have in Eve. As far as I'm aware, such training will not happen if you cancel your CoH account. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
BLACK D0G Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:05:00 - [82] 22-10-2008 "Ghost training debacle" summary 1. Lies: bad. 2. Spin and lies: bad. 3. Removal of a feature using said lies rather than the truth: bad. 4. Removal of this feature without removal of any other non-active areas (markets, RPs etc): bad. 5. Pathetic attempts at damage control rather than just owning up: bad. In my first year of primary school my then headmaster did a little speech about how "little white lies" turn into "big black lies." There comes a point when you just have to cut your losses and tell the truth. In particular if this is about "leveling the playing field" then you need to cover point 4 above. Id rather you hired someone known for just plain straight talking to come in and say things like: "We dont like you all using nano-ships, that wasnt what we had in mind so we're going to be nerfing that." "We dont like 10,000 people training for free cause at the end of the day we want to be paid just like everyone else." Not too surprisingly the majority of people react much better to a bit of straight talking than they do to highly transparent mis-communication.
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:52:00 - [83] First, they come out with this "power of two" alt thingy, and then they cut the feature bug, that is mostly used for alt training. Maybe ghost training isn't standard in other mmo's, but having only one char per account or years of training time isn't standard either.
Avram deman	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:16:00 - [84] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. Well I know some asian and free to play games will let you buy premium tokens that you can use as in game currency or to add gametime. And Sony did that whole item exchange thing for eq2
Danae Ori	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:22:00 - [85] Mmmmmmmm, tasty tears.
Chib Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:33:00 - [86] i just want to point out that to some players 2 months is required to train 1 level of 1 skill and for me the minimum is a month i have 2 accounts like this and im expected to pay ú15 per GTC per account for 1 or 2 levels of skill this change will not affect newer players as much as they have plenty to train but i have to wait 1-2 months for an additional 5% bonus in something If ccp are interested in keeping there older players then the entire training system needs revamped and at least people were still paying to reactivate their accounts when the skill training expired now there wont even be that ---------------------------------------------
Doonoo Boonoo Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:36:00 - [87] Why is this not locked?
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:38:00 - [88] Originally by: BLACK D0G "Ghost training debacle" summary 1. Lies: bad. 2. Spin and lies: bad. 3. Removal of a feature using said lies rather than the truth: bad. 4. Removal of this feature without removal of any other non-active areas (markets, RPs etc): bad. 5. Pathetic attempts at damage control rather than just owning up: bad. ... Id rather you hired someone known for just plain straight talking to come in and say things like: "We dont like you all using nano-ships..." "We dont like 10,000 people training for free..." Well said, especially the summary. I had done something similar earlier, but the post (and the thread) got deleted. Ho-hum. IMO, they should just hire a person to come in and say to us "We don't like you."
Cpt Krudd	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:45:00 - [89] funny that this was not announced BEFORE the power of 2 promotion heh. looks to me like any cancellations from this debacle will be hidden by the extra accounts from the power of 2 offer. ps ccp removing 30 day gtc only added to the amount of people using ghost training. bleh!fail!
Howatch Johalla Gallente Johalla MegaThor Corp	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:50:00 - [90] Please all ghost training people that are quitting EVE give all your assets and ISK to me and I really hope you stick to your word of quitting as that should net me some ISK from you. I like that CCP is abolishing ghost training as it is unfair that some ppl can advance their char without paying for it. I love to play EVE and I pay gladly every month to be able to do so. Keep up the good work CCP :)

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