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Ghost Training interview with Torfi Frans over at MMORPG.com

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Treenara Mazouk Phoenix Propulsion Labs Lost Sheep Domain	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:26:00 - [1] Thought folks would be interested in reading this short interview! CrazyKinux's Musing
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Davina Braben on 21/10/2008 17:39:55 He still doesn't get why people are so narked. Does admit it was regarded by customers as a feature. Does admit they chose to leave it in the game. Amazing. Quote: ôI truly hope that people still realize that weÆre just gamers like them, trying to make a game and making a living off of it. It was not out of pure money, greed or lust that we did this. It was a balancing act and a fairness act toward us as a company moreso than the gamers, but I honestly canÆt think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when youÆre not even paying for it.ö Uh huh. Hey CCP, don't let this guy do your PR any more
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:47:00 - [3] Edited by: Highwind Cid on 21/10/2008 17:47:16 Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 21/10/2008 17:39:55 He still doesn't get why people are so narked. Does admit it was regarded by customers as a feature. Does admit they chose to leave it in the game. Amazing. Quote: ôI truly hope that people still realize that weÆre just gamers like them, trying to make a game and making a living off of it. It was not out of pure money, greed or lust that we did this. It was a balancing act and a fairness act toward us as a company moreso than the gamers, but I honestly canÆt think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when youÆre not even paying for it.ö Uh huh. Hey CCP, don't let this guy do your PR any more He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:57:00 - [4] I dunno. I got a shipping container full of orphans in my basement grinding my WoW d00d for me when I'm out.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:59:00 - [6] Well, we've always said we can't compare training skills in this game with levelling up in WoW, because they are oh so different, but not anymore!!! So, is he prepared to accept the loss of subscriptions when people realize that it takes 4 months (of active subscription time) in WoW to catch up to the veteran playerbase, and it takes OVER A YEAR in EVE to kind of achieve the same (not really). If he wants to call it an oversight, something they missed in 2003, fine, we can call it that. But since 2003, every other (competing) MMO out there has put in tremendous effort to reduce how long it takes newbies to reach a level where they can compete with the veterans, and "over one year" may have been the standard in 2003, but it is not now. So how about he fix the second oversight that CCP did, and revamp the whole skill training system so that we can reach the average (HACs or recon ships) in 4 months, eh? Does it start to sound like a bad idea? Maybe it would have been better to just leave it in? Greed.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Seth Ruin And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. Both examples don't really affect their bottom line in a negative fashion. :) warp drive active \| nature vraie
CopyCatz Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:12:00 - [8] ôA couple of weeks ago, we were doing some research on our database and running some queries as we do frequentlyà and we noted a big rise in [the use of the system]. So, what we were seeing was like a recurring pattern. People were using Ghost Training to advance their characters without paying a subscription. So, they were building fairly strong characters without paying a subscription. Which, to be honest, didnÆt seem fair.ö This interesting. It's one way of interpreting data anyway. I assume they saw loads of people ending their subscription. For one thing I have never stopped my training when letting my account expire, and why should I? How on earth would you gather from data like this a ghost training pattern... Maybe it's just more people quitting eve.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:16:00 - [9] Originally by: CopyCatz This interesting. It's one way of interpreting data anyway. I assume they saw loads of people ending their subscription. For one thing I have never stopped my training when letting my account expire, and why should I? How on earth would you gather from data like this a ghost training pattern... Maybe it's just more people quitting eve. I would venture a guess that part of that analysis was a focus on long training skills. And over time it's not hard to accumulate data like # of accounts that resub, login, change skills, and unsub. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:18:00 - [10] In other news, CCP have hired Mike Tyson as their female staff advocate
Treenara Mazouk Phoenix Propulsion Labs Lost Sheep Domain	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Winterblink I would venture a guess that part of that analysis was a focus on long training skills. And over time it's not hard to accumulate data like # of accounts that resub, login, change skills, and unsub. What are you trying to say here? That folks over at CCP Games are a bunch of intelligent people who can sort through data and analyze it to make informative decisions. Wow, jaw dropping info you've just unearthed there! Next, you're going to tell us they have a couple of PhDs working there as well! C'mon, you're pulling my leg! CrazyKinux's Musing
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:28:00 - [12] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: CopyCatz This interesting. It's one way of interpreting data anyway. I assume they saw loads of people ending their subscription. For one thing I have never stopped my training when letting my account expire, and why should I? How on earth would you gather from data like this a ghost training pattern... Maybe it's just more people quitting eve. I would venture a guess that part of that analysis was a focus on long training skills. And over time it's not hard to accumulate data like # of accounts that resub, login, change skills, and unsub. And then try and tell us that inactive accounts are a significant load on the database...
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Winterblink Both examples don't really affect their bottom line in a negative fashion. :) True, but imagine (hypothetically, if you will) they discover they can save a significant amount of money by sharding as opposed to keeping the cluster as-is. Do you think they'd stay with the cluster style for the good of the players? At one time, I'd say yes. These days, I'm not so sure.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Malcanis And then try and tell us that inactive accounts are a significant load on the database... Really? Where's that stated? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Hairy Manballs	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Malcanis And then try and tell us that inactive accounts are a significant load on the database... Really? Where's that stated? In the original announcement, sort of.
Echthalian Martian Productions	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:28:00 - [16] your going to loose more people then you think CCP... <-- 3 days left of forum trolling.
Tokclik The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:46:00 - [17] I have no problem paying $15 a month to help support a company that is supplying me with a game I enjoy playing. I have often trained up skills with over a month training time and never logged in but still payed my monthly subscription fee. If $15 a month is too much hassle for you to dig out of your couch to support CCP and you feel this is a reason to quit....then quit.....you probably need to go get a job and stop living off the dole. MMORPG has plenty of FTP games out there for you.
Stephannus Calimben the united	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Tokclik I have no problem paying $15 a month to help support a company that is supplying me with a game I enjoy playing. I have often trained up skills with over a month training time and never logged in but still payed my monthly subscription fee. If $15 a month is too much hassle for you to dig out of your couch to support CCP and you feel this is a reason to quit....then quit.....you probably need to go get a job and stop living off the dole. MMORPG has plenty of FTP games out there for you. ^^this I think this whole NON ISSUE is absolutely ******ed. Yes, I've used ghost training before, and honestly it feels almost like stealing. Why should you be able to train while you're not playing? I mean yes it's kinda nice to come back after not playing for a while and having BS V trained up, but... Is the removal game breaking for me? NO Is it a detriment to my ability to enjoy the game? NO Is not being able to use it increasing the advantage of old players? NO So whats the problem? Is everyone just butthurt because of CCP PR spin? Seriously? Grow up. CCP accidently forgot to code in a check that we were paying for characters that continued to skill up. They left it up to us to not abuse the issue, and opted out of fixing it. A bunch of character sellers took advantage of it, and lost the privilege for everyone.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:59:00 - [19] 4% of the user base making use of this feature being cause for concern seems paranoid for sure. While I've never made use of it myself, I have to admit I was contemplating killing my three accounts for a month while I did BS5, but that's because I really don't have time to play right now anyways. It seems fair to me to allow ghost training, and if you really were going to nerf it because it's an unfair method of advancement, then you need to nerf ghost marketting, ghost RP collecting, ghost everything AND on top of all that, remove the skills people acquired under ghost training to begin with. I'm all for a solution to this particular issue, but please devs, think things through for a change. Was the CSM involved in this decision? Don't you realize what a valuable incentive it is for people who have legitimately quit to return, knowing they have a nice big fat skill waiting for them? Maybe the adverse reaction of the community should make devs pause and think that they need to offer compensation to those jilted by this decision (cough skill queue cough). Sadly, it seems more and more common for EVE devs to have this absurd myopia when addressing 'issues'. Regardless of controversy, this decision will not cause eve to grow, plain and simple.
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:04:00 - [20] and this is why they released the expansions news, hey we ****ed off alot of our customers so lets give them some shiny crumbs for them to digest maybe they will forget about our taking away a feature from the game.
h zebra	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:06:00 - [21] Quote: ôI truly hope that people still realize that weÆre just gamers like them, trying to make a game and making a living off of it. It was not out of pure money, greed or lust that we did this No it was out of pure money and greed you did this!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. LOL! And that indeed cuts right to the heart of the matter SKUNK
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:21:00 - [23] Yup, the more CCP starts doing what "other companies" do, the closer EVE becomes to WoW in Space. Be afraid. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front Tread Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. LOL! And that indeed cuts right to the heart of the matter SKUNK Yawn, another 'CCP I wanna play for free' thread. Get over it people, or go to Runequest. That's what free looks like. Cheers, Ruf.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Rufus MacMaranth Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. LOL! And that indeed cuts right to the heart of the matter SKUNK Yawn, another 'CCP I wanna play for free' thread. Get over it people, or go to Runequest. That's what free looks like. Cheers, Ruf. The poster was pointing out the irony that CCP used the reasoning that "nobody else does it" to excuse the removal of ghost training. And "we want to approach the industry standard" when it came to the GTC 30 day time period removals. Yet they allow GTC-ISK (dollars to isk) trading despite the fact "nobody else does it" and boast that they "do not follow the industry standard" of multisharding. As such it was a witty post, and deserving of some recognition by me, one of the foremost wits on the forum. Sorry you didnt understand the point, I hope ive cleared it up for you. SKUNK
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:29:00 - [26] I heard that since the beginning, EVE Online has had characters. I believe this is too inline with industry standards and is therefore a bad thing _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
daemorhedron	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:30:00 - [27] Another interesting thing is that City of Heroes is actually putting something like Ghost Training IN to the game next update.
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front Tread Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Rufus MacMaranth Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Highwind Cid He's right, I can't think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when not paying, because maybe there isn't another game that lets you skill up when you are paying and are not playing. Dur De Dur And y'know what... I can't think of any other company that allows you to buy/sell game time for in-game currency. We should do away with that, too! Y'know, just to be fair to CCP. Because, after all, if nobody else is doing it, then there's no reason for CCP to do it. And I can't think of any other company that has only one server for the entire population. We should shard EVE too! Because that's what others do. LOL! And that indeed cuts right to the heart of the matter SKUNK Yawn, another 'CCP I wanna play for free' thread. Get over it people, or go to Runequest. That's what free looks like. Cheers, Ruf. The poster was pointing out the irony that CCP used the reasoning that "nobody else does it" to excuse the removal of ghost training. And "we want to approach the industry standard" when it came to the GTC 30 day time period removals. Yet they allow GTC-ISK (dollars to isk) trading despite the fact "nobody else does it" and boast that they "do not follow the industry standard" of multisharding. As such it was a witty post, and deserving of some recognition by me, one of the foremost wits on the forum. Sorry you didnt understand the point, I hope ive cleared it up for you. SKUNK Oh I understood what was yet another dull, uninspiring post trying very hard to be something else. Comparing apples and oranges and deciding the result is a banana is not terribly witty or original. I'm sorry you found it witty. I thought your standards were a little higher than that. Cheers, Ruf. PS: Now the Sherrif Jones shop series is witty ....
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Winterblink Both examples don't really affect their bottom line in a negative fashion. :) True, but imagine (hypothetically, if you will) they discover they can save a significant amount of money by sharding as opposed to keeping the cluster as-is. Do you think they'd stay with the cluster style for the good of the players? At one time, I'd say yes. These days, I'm not so sure. i think you're deliberately trying to compare apples to oranges. one of the things that makes EVE unique and special is the single shard - if there is anyone, player or dev, that feels that ghost training is as important to the make-up of EVE as this is, i would like to beat them to death with a rotten kipper. ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
ShaSha DuJour	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Le Skunk[/quote blah blah blah more negativity in my usual, pointless self-involved and supercilious manner that i hope will make me look smart and witty Sorry you didnt understand the point, I hope ive cleared it up for you. I was born with sand actually lodged inside my vagina SKUNK ah, makes sense now

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