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Ghost Training interview with Torfi Frans over at MMORPG.com

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Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:06:00 - [91] Originally by: Howatch Johalla Please all ghost training people that are quitting EVE give all your assets and ISK to me and I really hope you stick to your word of quitting as that should net me some ISK from you. I like that CCP is abolishing ghost training as it is unfair that some ppl can advance their char without paying for it. I love to play EVE and I pay gladly every month to be able to do so. Keep up the good work CCP :) You know it OK, it getting old, the things you say, but it is OK. Do not question things when CCP kicks you in the ass, Do not question things when they create their own version of events and call feature bugs, and bugs features. I am sure your turn will come, and all the people who think we are just moaning. The only thing is, I think you would just say "meh" and walk away. At least we care enough to tell CCP to stop lying to us. You, and people like you, are just a pushover, who thinks of themselves as well-adjusted, but in reality are trained to accept authority on every level, and simply accept what they are being told, rather then fight, and maybe lose something, but still fight.
dojocan81	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:09:00 - [92] not to read all here, but as i said, i'll said it again: Its sad that this "feature", was almost 5 years part of Eve Online and now, who ever knows why, they changing game mechanics at the cost of some alts ....
Gara Al'Malik	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:59:00 - [93] Ghost training was broken and I'm glad CCP removed it. CCP handled the announcement badly, but who cares? I just smiled at it, and thought yeah, sure. The world is full of marketing crap from various companies. The important thing is the game which is better now without ghost training.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Delos Korelian Keep up the good work CCP :) You know it OK, it getting old, the things you say, but it is OK. Do not question things when CCP kicks you in the ass, Do not question things when they create their own version of events and call feature bugs, and bugs features. I am sure your turn will come, and all the people who think we are just moaning. The only thing is, I think you would just say "meh" and walk away. At least we care enough to tell CCP to stop lying to us. You, and people like you, are just a pushover, who thinks of themselves as well-adjusted, but in reality are trained to accept authority on every level, and simply accept what they are being told, rather then fight, and maybe lose something, but still fight. Edit: It boils down to this, if CCP lies, and you are a normal person, it should make you uncomfortable at least, and even if you are not combative like many others, it should make you think as to what they will do next, or lie about next? Next time it maybe a feature near and dear to your heart that turns into a bug, since we have this precedent. It's a world created entirely by CCP. Most of the mechanics of the game are hidden to us anyway. I pay CCP to play and explore the eve universe that they have created. Why would I bother trying to figure out if they're speaking the truth or not when I could take their word for it. Because if I can't trust CCP then what good will complaining do? They have all the answers regarding this game and since it's only a game I couldn't care less. I'll adapt and play on until my friends quit and the game and/or if I find it too boring (wich hasn't happened yet since launch). There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
LuthienTinuviel Amarr The Higher Standard	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:50:00 - [95] Edited by: LuthienTinuviel on 22/10/2008 13:50:16 Originally by: Thargat It's a world created entirely by CCP. Most of the mechanics of the game are hidden to us anyway. I pay CCP to play and explore the eve universe that they have created. Why would I bother trying to figure out if they're speaking the truth or not when I could take their word for it. Because if I can't trust CCP then what good will complaining do? They have all the answers regarding this game and since it's only a game I couldn't care less. I'll adapt and play on until my friends quit and the game and/or if I find it too boring (wich hasn't happened yet since launch). Awesome can I sell you some snake oil it sure sounds like you would buy it and pay me a pretty price for it . CCP - You are now entering the twilight zone where bugs are features and features are bugs
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.22 14:45:00 - [96] Originally by: Gara Al'Malik The important thing is the game which is better now without ghost training. Explain how this changes the actual game at all, aside from DT running late since they implemented it due to the extra load it causes on the DB. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:13:00 - [97] Originally by: Avram deman Well I know some asian and free to play games will let you buy premium tokens that you can use as in game currency or to add gametime. And Sony did that whole item exchange thing for eq2 EQ2...
Yoa Loother	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:15:00 - [98] Dear god will the whining NEVER END??? It was ALWAYS clear for people rubbing their 2 remaining braincells together that "Ghost Training" is a bug, and if we¦d be honest, we would admit that we got away with something that¦s unheard off in the whole world. Reality even. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH !!11oneone!!!evelen You pay for eve to buy time for off&online training of skills and play. Subscription ends, therefore skill training time ends too. Obvious is obvious.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:30:00 - [99] Originally by: Yoa Loother Dear god will the whining NEVER END??? It was ALWAYS clear for people rubbing their 2 remaining braincells together that "Ghost Training" is a bug, and if we¦d be honest, we would admit that we got away with something that¦s unheard off in the whole world. Reality even. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH !!11oneone!!!evelen You pay for eve to buy time for off&online training of skills and play. Subscription ends, therefore skill training time ends too. Obvious is obvious. 3 cells and up gives a different level of obviousness. If you think that CCP are deliberately not fixing 5 year old bugs which they had the code to fix 2 years ago (as this was never a feature of the Chinese server). Then quite frankly that's a lot worse. No other game in the whole world has a 20 year path before you max out. Comparing Eve to 'other games' on a single particular element is stupid at best. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
supr3m3justic3 Caldari Hakata Group Blade.	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:43:00 - [100] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Well, we've always said we can't compare training skills in this game with levelling up in WoW, because they are oh so different, but not anymore!!! So, is he prepared to accept the loss of subscriptions when people realize that it takes 4 months (of active subscription time) in WoW to catch up to the veteran playerbase, and it takes OVER A YEAR in EVE to kind of achieve the same (not really). If he wants to call it an oversight, something they missed in 2003, fine, we can call it that. But since 2003, every other (competing) MMO out there has put in tremendous effort to reduce how long it takes newbies to reach a level where they can compete with the veterans, and "over one year" may have been the standard in 2003, but it is not now. So how about he fix the second oversight that CCP did, and revamp the whole skill training system so that we can reach the average (HACs or recon ships) in 4 months, eh? Does it start to sound like a bad idea? Maybe it would have been better to just leave it in? Greed. \signed....for the truth! ____
Unfunny Alt Anonymous Forumposters	Posted - 2008.10.22 16:40:00 - [101] No one cares probably, but here are my 2 cents: With the change of "ghost training" Eve lost some of its immersion. Before I knew, my char would advance at least a bit, even if I was not paying for it. The whole eve-verse would continue spinning and evolve. Now chars stop dead, it is as if they'd vanish into thin space with "only" a meta game reason. I won't quit Eve because of it, but I'll reduce my accounts a bit. That being said, I wonder how much player created alliance logos costs ccp and if that will stop, too? Poster and Hauling Alt of Policy Handicapped Main
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.22 16:50:00 - [102] It's all been said in the megathread. No need to keep rehashing the same old same old. Either you think the ghost training removal is a good thing, or you don't. The true effects won't be felt for months and will be affected by the empire ganking nerf, nanonerf and/or GTC price hike. You can debate whether or not it was a good idea then. This is a thread discussing the interview. The one thing that smacked of BS is only 4% of the current accounts (not players!) are ghost training. And that was suddenly enough of an emergency to cause the hurried, poorly thought out and presented bugfix being thrown out there? I don't buy it. More likely a month ago 10 day GTCs from the asian market got sold in huge volumes -- a welcome change from 60 day GTCs for those of us with R&D and other passive activity alts. Now, it's about 40 days since that flood hit, and coincides with the ghost training nerf. I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'ghost training' represents a lot more than 4%, and the trend is up due to GTC changes. In my opinion the potential impact is a lot more than an estimated 10% of 4% account loss.
Dire Radiant	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:00:00 - [103] Wow. Torfi really does not know when to shut up.
Braxiglox Hrrglxbrwimple	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:02:00 - [104] Originally by: CopyCatz This interesting. It's one way of interpreting data anyway. I assume they saw loads of people ending their subscription. For one thing I have never stopped my training when letting my account expire, and why should I? How on earth would you gather from data like this a ghost training pattern... Maybe it's just more people quitting eve. Yeah. Global financial meltdown, rising layoffs, widespread fear, many people obviously thinking twice about luxury outlays, and CCP is too stupid to connect the dots? Apparently so. They notice an increase in unsubbed training and can't figure out that almost everyone tries to get in the longest training step they have available whenever they let their accounts lapse for whatever reason, and that more people are letting their accounts lapse in this economic climate? Well, I don't know about others, but CCP broke the cycle of compulsive training for me. Since reactivating an idle account will bring nothing new, no training progress, no new training completion, I distinctly feel the absence of incentive to reactivate my idle accounts. And I started letting them expire shortly after this monumentally unwise change on the 15th. Everything about Eve is now much less interesting for me than it had been before the change, when I had nine accounts all active. So... ppl can speculate all they want about whether or not the nerf of unsubbed training will have any negative effect, but I can see and feel the effect it has had on me. I've lost most of my interest in Eve and I only log in now out of boredom with other things. Instead of keeping nine accounts active I may average just a couple going forward. Time will tell, but unless and until this change is reversed, I will no longer keep nine accounts active. Am I concerned that Eve may slide and possibly even fail and shut down? Not at all. If Eve disappears I will consider it a fair price for CCP getting their comeuppance.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:15:00 - [105] Edited by: Tippia on 22/10/2008 17:16:29 Originally by: Clair Bear It's all been said in the megathread. No need to keep rehashing the same old same old. Either you think the ghost training removal is a good thing, or you don't. …or, as a third alternative, you don't care either way and aren't surprised by the change, but are annoyed by the countless whines along the lines of "Omgz! They tricked me into getting tons of alts and then remvoved an intended game mechanic! We've been cheated!"
Braxiglox Hrrglxbrwimple	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:15:00 - [106] Originally by: Gara Al'Malik The important thing is the game which is better now without ghost training. Um, how is the game better without unsubbed training? How is it better that people with lapsed accounts now have much less reason to reactivate their accounts? How is it better that large numbers of players feel they have been kicked in the teeth? How is it better that CCP is losing active accounts? Long before you would be the last person left in the game, with no one to fight or work with, with nothing to buy because no one is there to manufacture stuff, CCP will have to throw in the towel and shut the game down. Would that be better for you? For me, it no longer matters. I've lost interest in Eve after 2-1/2 years and nine accounts, most of them in the 25-32 mil SP range. Instead of keeping nine accounts active almost all the time and obsessively progressing them toward distinct, ever expanding goals, it has become a big ho-hum for me now. Even if I never train a char again I can already do most of the things I ever wanted to do, can fly more types of ships than I know what to do with, and have close to 900 mil in my wallet. But each day when I consider logging in, it's no longer interesting in the way it used to be. I've lost faith in CCP.
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:38:00 - [107] Originally by: Braxiglox Hrrglxbrwimple ...psychological figleaf attempting to cover the angst of loosing a freebie... Nice name. ...
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:45:00 - [108] EULA Part 10 E CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. EVE is CCP's game. I pay to play it. If the removal of the ghost train bug / feature causes you to not want to pay CCP to play this game then fine. They don't HAVE to tell you jack. See above.
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:47:00 - [109] The game belongs to CCP. CCP can do whatever the heck it wants to the game. I will stop playing the game when blowing up someones ship in High Sec is no longer fun or squishing a pod no longer gives me a tingly feeling up my leg, or whenever I no longer enjoy the "But Dude I paid the ransom!!!!" in local. Alas, my needs are small.
Captain Hudson Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:09:00 - [110] Originally by: Vladimir Ilych EULA Part 10 E CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. EVE is CCP's game. I pay to play it. If the removal of the ghost train bug / feature causes you to not want to pay CCP to play this game then fine. They don't HAVE to tell you jack. See above. qft Bin Laden Dancing
Sosu Mi	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:12:00 - [111] Eliminate ghost training? Fine by me, so long as CCP maintains the % Complete on the last skill trained. I always felt it would be like stealing to ghost train. As many have said, there is no pay-per-month game that I know of that lets you advance for free. I'm sure it would never happen but the only reason I'd quit is if CCP changed it so you only advance while logged into the game.
supr3m3justic3 Caldari Hakata Group Blade.	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:37:00 - [112] Originally by: Misanth I don't like bashing on CCP. As an oldtime gamer and even GM in a(n old) MMO I feel this game is really the best MMO so far created, and I know how hard customer relation work is (and how limited your actions are, you can't tell players very much). But honestly, Torfi really needs to stop talking on behalf of CCP. He told players this change was to reduce the load on servers. And in the interview he tells mmorpg.com it was to make the game 'fair'. Is mmorpg lying or is Torfi? I'm sure he's a nice guy, and probably a gamer just like he describe himself. He obviously isn't a PR guy, and for the sake of the game I love, please make him stop writing blogs and take interviews. He's not a master of spinning, by far.. I really don't want this masterpiece game down the drain because of players reaction to some guy that isn't chosing his words, or getting misquoted, or whatever. Please. Just get someone who can talk to people to talk to people? Ok? Thanks. No offense man, I have no clue who the hell you are. Maybe you deserve alot of praise for your work at EVE. But atm you're making things worse. Good luck. /signed ____
Vama Mapri	Posted - 2008.10.22 22:15:00 - [113] Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 21/10/2008 17:56:45 He still doesn't get why people are so narked. Does admit it was regarded by customers as a feature. Does admit they chose to leave it in the game. Amazing. Quote: ôI truly hope that people still realize that weÆre just gamers like them, trying to make a game and making a living off of it. It was not out of pure money, greed or lust that we did this. It was a balancing act and a fairness act toward us as a company moreso than the gamers, but I honestly canÆt think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when youÆre not even paying for it.ö Uh huh. Hey CCP, don't let this guy do your PR any more Well seeing as it's fair for them to say you can't train unless you've paid, shouldn't it also be fair for us to say we shouldn't get billed unless were actually in-game and using their equipement/servers ? Same principal but because it doesn't benefit them it won't happen........
Ballistic CEO The Ballistic Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.22 22:50:00 - [114] Dont give a **** either way except: stop all ghost activities please. You might as well get it all out of the way while your rep points are at a fairly low level with the playerbase.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.22 22:59:00 - [115] Originally by: Vama Mapri Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 21/10/2008 17:56:45 He still doesn't get why people are so narked. Does admit it was regarded by customers as a feature. Does admit they chose to leave it in the game. Amazing. Quote: ôI truly hope that people still realize that weÆre just gamers like them, trying to make a game and making a living off of it. It was not out of pure money, greed or lust that we did this. It was a balancing act and a fairness act toward us as a company moreso than the gamers, but I honestly canÆt think of any other company that allows you to skill up your character when youÆre not even paying for it.ö Uh huh. Hey CCP, don't let this guy do your PR any more Well seeing as it's fair for them to say you can't train unless you've paid, shouldn't it also be fair for us to say we shouldn't get billed unless were actually in-game and using their equipement/servers ? Same principal but because it doesn't benefit them it won't happen........ yet another example of someone who doesn't get it. at all. ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
PrincessMayhem	Posted - 2008.10.22 23:33:00 - [116] I think that, while removing the ghost training sucks hugely, that it is a good idea. I agree that it is unfair to the players who pay for thier subscriptions.(spelling... eek) I understand where CCP is coming from and realize that the only people who have a huge problem with it is the ones who cant find a way to come up with 15 bucks a month to pay thier account costs. I also read alittle farther down that they should shorten training times like they did in WOW... ok seriously.. if you are so happy with WOW and EVE is so terrible, dont play EVE. This game is vastly differnt than WOW.. which is a good thing, EVE isnt Nerfed down so that little whining children can play, this is a big peoples game. If the training times were shortened to please the nubbins then how is that fair to the people who have invested the money and the time to have the kick ass chars? just a few thoughts i had...
Chelone Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.10.23 01:04:00 - [117] They didn't try to SCREW anyone over per se... they just... Fixed... the glitch!
Chelone Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.10.23 02:13:00 - [118] Originally by: Vama Mapri Seeing as it's fair for them to say you can't train unless you've paid, shouldn't it also be fair for us to say we shouldn't get billed unless were actually in-game and using their equipement/servers? You just hit the nail on the head. Brilliant counterargument. There is no justification for this other than the fact that they hold all the power. They fail to understand that this training system they have invoked (real-time training) lends itself to including the "casual play" option they are now doing away with. To those towing CCP's line on this -- are you saying that we aren't paying our money to fly around in internet spaceshipz, to fight in PvP or PvE, faction warfare, play the market, or interact in countless other ways via CCP's server with the other thousands of players -- we are simply paying money to make a number go up on our character screen every day? When I put it that way, does that sound like a good use of your money?? Purchasing 1.6M SP for $14 every month, and getting nothing else out of it over the course of that month? "So then play the game!" Why should I be forced into that choice? It helps EVERYONE to have that choice. People could NOT get "FREE" skill training -- they still had to pay for at least a month at a time. They were still restricted by that. They were still NOT allowed to play the game while not paying for it. I can't believe this is so hard for people to understand. Oh wait, yes I can. People are stupid!
VCBee2569	Posted - 2008.10.23 03:32:00 - [119] Originally by: Vladimir Ilych EULA Part 10 E CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. EVE is CCP's game. I pay to play it. If the removal of the ghost train bug / feature causes you to not want to pay CCP to play this game then fine. They don't HAVE to tell you jack. See above. Your right and wrong, they don't have to tell you jack true (they should have done exactly that) BUT they instead LIED and they are not allowed to do that (EULA or no EULA), as a business they cannot knowingly lie to there paying customers, and if truth be told CCP could get in pretty hot water over this lie and they dam well know it (hence the very poor covering up there trying to do by saying it was a bug despite advertising it as a feature). First rule of business - Don't lie to your customers. Second rule of business - If you lie to your customers DON'T let them find out. CCP broke both these rules.
Kumiko Demontang	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:00:00 - [120] Edited by: Kumiko Demontang on 23/10/2008 04:03:07 An important thing that CCP is overlooking is that when players use this "feature" they usually have MULTIPLE accounts, and not using their main account. Something that was once affordable to do in these tough economies "ghost train" all of a sudden becomes something that just isn't affordable to continue doing. Result? Cancelled accounts. It also isn't like someone who trains like this has a huge advantage. To use the character it has to be paid for. Ghost training also takes money to do. You can only go about a month on a long skill training before you need to pay another subscrption. So, in order to ghost train it costs half. To ghost train a character for a year you need to pay for 6 months in between. To say that players are using the training for "free" is ludicrous.

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