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Ghost Training interview with Torfi Frans over at MMORPG.com

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Jiss Katcher	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:08:00 - [121] Originally by: VCBee2569 Originally by: Vladimir Ilych EULA Part 10 E CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. EVE is CCP's game. I pay to play it. If the removal of the ghost train bug / feature causes you to not want to pay CCP to play this game then fine. They don't HAVE to tell you jack. See above. Your right and wrong, they don't have to tell you jack true (they should have done exactly that) BUT they instead LIED and they are not allowed to do that (EULA or no EULA), as a business they cannot knowingly lie to there paying customers, and if truth be told CCP could get in pretty hot water over this lie and they dam well know it (hence the very poor covering up there trying to do by saying it was a bug despite advertising it as a feature). First rule of business - Don't lie to your customers. Second rule of business - If you lie to your customers DON'T let them find out. CCP broke both these rules. wait, exactly what's the lie, and how would you (or anyone) prove it was a lie? just curious, not trying to flamebait.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:16:00 - [122] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias As suprising as it might be, there are people who don't like companies that lie to them, even when those lies are obvious. Would these be the same people that were surprised, shocked and horrified when it was discovered that a leading politician of a country lied about having an affair with an intern?
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:23:00 - [123] It's amusing to watch the 'usual suspects' that most of you are, running around in circles, waving your arms madly and yelling about how EVE/CCP is going to hell in a handbasket. It's the same thing ya'll have been doing for years and you're still here. Some of you are new, granted..but you'll get over this farce like everyone else. So sit back and relax, and watch yourself still being here, or coming back to here within a short amount of time, like always.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:24:00 - [124] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Jethro Jechonias As suprising as it might be, there are people who don't like companies that lie to them, even when those lies are obvious. Would these be the same people that were surprised, shocked and horrified when it was discovered that a leading politician of a country lied about having an affair with an intern? I wasn't - hell considering he was the president I would have slept with him too. Well, maybe. I do draw a line at Bush family though. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:26:00 - [125] Originally by: Vama Mapri Well seeing as it's fair for them to say you can't train unless you've paid, shouldn't it also be fair for us to say we shouldn't get billed unless were actually in-game and using their equipement/servers ? It's fair for them to say so because that's what's in the contract: you pay for access to the servers. If you choose not to make good use of the goods or and services you acquire through that contract, then it's entirely your problem. If I buy a banana, then I have the right to eat it. If I choose not to exercise that right and it starts to sprout hairs, I can't exactly go back to the store and say "hey, I obviously didn't eat this banana, so please return my money."
Dern Al'Malik Minmatar Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.10.23 07:02:00 - [126] Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: Gara Al'Malik The important thing is the game which is better now without ghost training. Explain how this changes the actual game at all, aside from DT running late since they implemented it due to the extra load it causes on the DB. Removal of ghost training makes EVE more balanced. People were abusing the feature/bug/whatever to get many characters trained for the price of one. So they gained an advantage over the players that didn't abuse ghost training.
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans	Posted - 2008.10.23 07:17:00 - [127] Originally by: Dern Al'Malik Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: Gara Al'Malik The important thing is the game which is better now without ghost training. Explain how this changes the actual game at all, aside from DT running late since they implemented it due to the extra load it causes on the DB. Removal of ghost training makes EVE more balanced. People were abusing the feature/bug/whatever to get many characters trained for the price of one. So they gained an advantage over the players that didn't abuse ghost training. Indoctrination was strong with this one.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:03:00 - [128] Originally by: Vladimir Ilych EULA Part 10 E CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. EVE is CCP's game. I pay to play it. If the removal of the ghost train bug / feature causes you to not want to pay CCP to play this game then fine. They don't HAVE to tell you jack. See above. They don't actually have to have the servers ever available for you to login either. They could wait for you to pay your 12 month sub and then just turn off the servers forever. I don't think anyone's arguing that this is an EULA issue. Obviously CCP can do whatever the hell they want if they feel their game has no future and they just want to run it into the ground, they're perfectly free to do so. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Prof Patpending Bodgit and Scarper Industrial	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:04:00 - [129] Ghost Training the skill points mofo.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:05:00 - [130] Originally by: Dern Al'Malik Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: Gara Al'Malik The important thing is the game which is better now without ghost training. Explain how this changes the actual game at all, aside from DT running late since they implemented it due to the extra load it causes on the DB. Removal of ghost training makes EVE more balanced. People were abusing the feature/bug/whatever to get many characters trained for the price of one. So they gained an advantage over the players that didn't abuse ghost training. 'balanced' ? You can buy isk using GTC's and then use that isk to buy a Character.... This has absolutely nothing to do with balance at all. If anything it just further pushes out of game advantages into the game. When you start talking about advantage in relation to how much money you pour into a game, you lose all right to talk about balance. Balance is how things are affected ingame, which is to say, not at all. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:08:00 - [131] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 23/10/2008 08:10:50 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Vama Mapri Well seeing as it's fair for them to say you can't train unless you've paid, shouldn't it also be fair for us to say we shouldn't get billed unless were actually in-game and using their equipement/servers ? It's fair for them to say so because that's what's in the contract: you pay for access to the servers. If you choose not to make good use of the goods or and services you acquire through that contract, then it's entirely your problem. If I buy a banana, then I have the right to eat it. If I choose not to exercise that right and it starts to sprout hairs, I can't exactly go back to the store and say "hey, I obviously didn't eat this banana, so please return my money." You don't actually pay for access to the servers. You actually merely pay for the right to pay them if you read the EULA. They don't have to let you login at all. In banana speak. It would be a shop with a sign up saying banana's $1, and you hand over your $1 and they say, sorry, read the fine print, every 100th customer only. You ask for your money back, but infact the fineprint on the sign if you read the back of it really closely means they're well within their rights. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Wesdon Carline Amarr Mercantile Investments Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:15:00 - [132] Srsly, I'm so **ing tired of you people whining and *ing over this. If you don't like it, get out and gimme your **. I've been here 3 years, deployed active duty military, and I still have no porblem paying to skill while I can't play. Seriously, shut up about it already. CCP needed to do this a long time ago. Just because you didn't want to pay the 45 bucks for the 3 months training of BS 5 or whatever, boo hoo.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:21:00 - [133] Originally by: Lord Fitz In banana speak. It would be a shop with a sign up saying banana's $1, and you hand over your $1 and they say, sorry, read the fine print, every 100th customer only. You ask for your money back, but infact the fineprint on the sign if you read the back of it really closely means they're well within their rights. Well… I'd rather say that the fine print would say "Subject to banana availability." When you pay them, they agree to hand the banana over, should they happen to have one handy (and the only incentive they have to actually aquire any is that you'll grow tired waiting sooner or later and take your money elsewhere).
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:47:00 - [134] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Lord Fitz In banana speak. It would be a shop with a sign up saying banana's $1, and you hand over your $1 and they say, sorry, read the fine print, every 100th customer only. You ask for your money back, but infact the fineprint on the sign if you read the back of it really closely means they're well within their rights. Wellà I'd rather say that the fine print would say "Subject to banana availability." When you pay them, they agree to hand the banana over, should they happen to have one handy (and the only incentive they have to actually aquire any is that you'll grow tired waiting sooner or later and take your money elsewhere). CCP don't agree to have one handy. They only agree to think about maybe letting you have one if they feel like it. You can still hand over the money and not get anything for it. There is no incentive for them to give you what you think you paid for except that you might not give them any money again if they don't. (they already have your money from the initial purchase, and don't have to give you anything in return). Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:57:00 - [135] I like that out of all the controversial changes CCP have been making and proposing recently, the one with the biggest thread at the moment is the one which may hit the players in the pockets, in which they complain about CCP prioritising money. Though it does indeed seem the real problem here is how they try to, eh, be creative with the reason why. But keep Torfi doing PR. I like my spin how I like my windows, necessary but easy to see through. - DesuSigs
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.23 09:15:00 - [136] Why is this thread let open? My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.23 09:41:00 - [137] Originally by: Lord Fitz CCP don't agree to have one handy. They only agree to think about maybe letting you have one if they feel like it. You can still hand over the money and not get anything for it. There is no incentive for them to give you what you think you paid for except that you might not give them any money again if they don't. (they already have your money from the initial purchase, and don't have to give you anything in return). Exactly what I'm saying.
BLACK D0G Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.10.23 10:09:00 - [138] "Update: Unfortunately we just heard that CCP t0rfifrans is unable to make it for this Live Dev Blog. CCP Zulupark, Associate Producer and Content Director, will take his place. As CCP Zulupark reports directly to CCP t0rfifrans he will be able to answer all your questions just as well." no really, he is "unable to make it," from his desk to the microphone.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.23 10:11:00 - [139] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Lord Fitz CCP don't agree to have one handy. They only agree to think about maybe letting you have one if they feel like it. You can still hand over the money and not get anything for it. There is no incentive for them to give you what you think you paid for except that you might not give them any money again if they don't. (they already have your money from the initial purchase, and don't have to give you anything in return). Exactly what I'm saying. Right. And yet if the server was simply not available from 2 days time with no explanation as to why or if it would ever be back, there would be plenty of complaints, and yet CCP would still be within their rights in the EULA. Which is why the EULA has nothing at all to do with this. Just because you can legally do something, doesn't make it a good idea. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:28:00 - [140] Originally by: Lord Fitz Which is why the EULA has nothing at all to do with this. It has everything to do with "this" (with the argument that we shouldn't have to pay if we choose not to log in) since the it's about what's fair for the two parties involved to do, and the EULA explicitly explains what's what in that area.
Doonoo Boonoo Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:33:00 - [141] "People were using Ghost Training to advance their characters without paying a subscription. So, they were building fairly strong characters without paying a subscription." He makes it sound like it's possible to make a character for free.
Drykor Minmatar H A V O C Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:08:00 - [142] I don't have a problem with this fix, never used it 'cause I always had my account active except when on vacation. I would have set a long skill if I would go inactive of course, but it's no big deal to me. However, I do think from a business perspective it's not the right call. I think CCP would make more money longterm from people returning to the game knowing they had BS5/xx5 finished, than what they'll save by disallowing the character-building-accounts.
topken101 Caldari Legend's	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:00:00 - [143] I've never used ghost training. And have always thought it was unfair. Because how is this fair that I've paid for my account for over 2 year's. even when training long skill's 30+ day's. Why should someone get to train the same amount of time and not pay for it? And that's what most of you here are whining about that you should get to train skill's and not have to pay for the game time.. REALLY. You truely in your mind's honestly think that's fair to other player's and to ccp as a company. Now yes they could have handled the announcement a little better. And I think there should be a bit of a buffer zone of 1 or 2 day's that way people who pay with timecard's have time to get a new one or if someone useing a credit card change's cards and forget's to entering the new one
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:52:00 - [144] Originally by: BLACK D0G "Update: Unfortunately we just heard that CCP t0rfifrans is unable to make it for this Live Dev Blog. CCP Zulupark, Associate Producer and Content Director, will take his place. As CCP Zulupark reports directly to CCP t0rfifrans he will be able to answer all your questions just as well." no really, he is "unable to make it," from his desk to the microphone. did they actually say he was AT HIS DESK and unable to make it to the microphone or are you just making that assumption?
Chelone Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.10.23 23:32:00 - [145] Originally by: topken101 I've never used ghost training. And have always thought it was unfair. Because how is this fair that I've paid for my account for over 2 year's. even when training long skill's 30+ day's. Because when you PAY, you get to PLAY THE GAME! Originally by: topken101 Why should someone get to train the same amount of time and not pay for it? We are simply paying money to make a number go up on our character screen every day??? I'll keep repeating this until people stop being stupid. Which is to say, forever.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.24 04:12:00 - [146] Originally by: BLACK D0G "Update: Unfortunately we just heard that CCP t0rfifrans is unable to make it for this Live Dev Blog. CCP Zulupark, Associate Producer and Content Director, will take his place. As CCP Zulupark reports directly to CCP t0rfifrans he will be able to answer all your questions just as well." no really, he is "unable to make it," from his desk to the microphone. "Zulupark: t0rfifrans is sad that he couldn't be here today. He had to attend his wife, at hospital because of minor issues." yeah, you were so close about him being at his desk, idiot.
Lemetar Relem Minmatar Redshift Industrial	Posted - 2008.10.24 04:14:00 - [147] Originally by: Lord XSiV If you haven't figured it out that these northerners act like Loki on a sugar rush then you deserve what you get. I lawled pretty hard. Quote: 4. The original devs to come back; not the current content monkeys calling themselves devs Torfi actually is one of the original pre-beta devs. He was the lead artist back in the day. Left around 2004, then came back at some point a couple of years later (not all that surprising, there just aren't that many people in Iceland--you can fit them all inside the stadium they hold the Indianapolis 500 in. Seated, I mean, not stacked like cordwood). He used to seem like a pretty nice guy, so either he's been corrupted by Hilmar Palpatine or he's taking one for the team. Though really, they should either stop making silly claims or they should have someone with some idea of how to handle spin vetting these interviews and blogs. The "seat of the pants, off the top of our head, this will fool them, won't it?" style of customer communication isn't exactly working out so well. I predict the end of GTCs, or at least GTC resellers. Icelandic economy is like third world at this point, and the devs get paid in ISK (that's what their money's called, seriously), so it's no mystery why all this cash-grab stuff has come up this year.

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