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Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.29 12:25:00 - [31] nerf is such a overused word. Try "balance tuning" or "game mechanics improvements" or something. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
illuminati	Posted - 2004.06.29 12:34:00 - [32] Fix the bugs yes. If you want to balance stuff, why not DOWN-balance the damage output from 3 small turrets for example, thats a good place to start balancing considering how much small guns cost in ammo/capdrain to fire vs damage output. Quote: Once the drones are fixed 4-5 Interceptors/heavy frigs will take your BS down. Ever heard of mixed fleets? Maybe you didnt hear about mixed fleets either
Grut	Posted - 2004.06.29 12:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Ithildin Grut, get a new producer for your Crow. He isn't supposed to charge you 14 million for a ship that cost him 1 million to build. t2 parts cost alot and are in high demand ... so crows cost alot if there is a guy whos found a way to sell them at 1mil plz mail me his name ingame Mostly harmless
Hornymatt	Posted - 2004.06.29 13:08:00 - [34] just a case of swings and roundabouts, it seems to me that at the moment the gallente bs's have the edge with 425's in terms of dishing out damage - i do more damage at greater range with skills 4 & 4 than i do with 1400's in my tempest @ 5 & 7. With the redundancy of heavy drones i will have to replace a couple of the big guns with 250 rails (or even 150's?) to fight off itty bitty ships. There always smartbombs but i've not tried those since driving a frigate. Glad i never built me a Dom. Just my 2 cents
Jeswyn	Posted - 2004.06.29 13:43:00 - [35] I also think that a totally new drone system is in order. Combat Drones should be a viable defense vs small crafts, but they shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of frigate defense. And most importantly there should be several ways for frigates to handle attacking combat drones, i.e. outrun them, mess up their tracking etc. Someone also mentioned that if combat drones wouldn't be able to 'wtfpwn' frigs anymore they'd be useless, since they're no good against anything larger. IMO this shows that the usefulness of drones is atm very limited, there needs to be more flexibility in drone warfare. In conclusion, this begs for a complete overhaul of drones. Some suggestions: - Combat Drones * implement both tracking and range restrictions * classify the current drones as light/medium/heavy combat drones * light drones: high speed, good tracking, short range, low damage but high ROF * medium drones: average speed, tracking and range, more damage, slightly lower ROF * heavy drones: slow, mediocre tracking, long range and high damage, low ROF (note that this means 'for drones', i.e. the tracking on heavy drones should still be at least as good as the tracking on heavy frigate weapons) * possibly add missile drones to the mix for some variety * make the signature resolution on drones dependant on the parent ship and the size of the drone (i.e. light drones on a frig lock almost instantly, while a heavy drone launched from a BS might well take a few seconds to archive a lock) - 'other' Drones: * Repair Drones (hull & armor) * improve the cost/gain ratio on Mining Drones * Salvage Drones (to pick up stuff from containers/deep space) * possibly add Deep Space Survey and Recon drones * missile defense/EW drones * suicide bomb drones - general: * ECM Burst to cause drones to lose their lock * add drone-related modules, e.g. hull upgrades that increase drone bay in expense of speed and/or cargo space, other modules for repairing drones in the bay or enhancing drone attributes(tracking/speed/sensors/ROF) * give gallentean ships (esp. cruisers) some drone-related bonuses I think those suggestions would enhance drone warfare a lot.
PTB01	Posted - 2004.06.29 16:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Hornymatt just a case of swings and roundabouts, it seems to me that at the moment the gallente bs's have the edge with 425's in terms of dishing out damage - i do more damage at greater range with skills 4 & 4 than i do with 1400's in my tempest @ 5 & 7. With the redundancy of heavy drones i will have to replace a couple of the big guns with 250 rails (or even 150's?) to fight off itty bitty ships. There always smartbombs but i've not tried those since driving a frigate. Glad i never built me a Dom. Just my 2 cents In which case could we please have the option to do something useful with the drone space, say use it for cargo as it's just going to be 5000m3 of uselessness
Meridius	Posted - 2004.06.29 17:35:00 - [37] Uhm can you all stop talking like interceptors are actually worth 6mil+. As far as i know the NPC prices when they came out were a bit more expensive then frigs, 600-800k or something. The prices are high right now because of the high demand. BS's cost a raw 90-100mil to make. ________________________________________________________
Jeswyn	Posted - 2004.06.29 18:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Meridius BS's cost a raw 90-100mil to make. So that's supposed to be enough of a justification to let them kill anything except another BS in a matter of seconds? Let's face it: Anyone with enough skillpoints to use a BS to anything else than mining/hauling has enough cash that one lost BS (that's 30 mil insurance money lost, not 100 mil. Unless they were dumb enough NOT to insure it) won't exactly bother them. Furthermore, this isn't about price balancing, it's about balancing the ship classes. BS should be powerful, but limited in their engagement possibilities.
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.06.29 19:18:00 - [39] yay. nerf the drones, please do. all the more reason for selling my scorpion and getting a frigate so i can get some pvp loving, since everyone would stop using battleships if they cant hit anything sub bs sized. --------------------------
ErrorS	Posted - 2004.06.29 20:43:00 - [40] what the? heavy weapons vs. frigate.. frigate wins heavy drone vs. frigate.. frigate wins BATTLESHIP VS. FRIGATE.. FRIGATE WINS ugh.. interceptors are suppose to die quick ________ I'm strict Caldari "The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think? -ErrorS
Drusilla	Posted - 2004.06.29 22:01:00 - [41] Ok, my 0.02 ISK: Suicide drones - we already have them. They're called "missiles." Fixes to drones: As I understand it, the size of combat stuff is like this: Drone, Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship A drone is the size of a speedboat; a frigate is the size of a Coast Guard Cutter; a cruiser is the size of, well, a cruiser; and a battleship is the size of the USS New Jersey. When someone suggests that a drone should have a problem with tracking a frigate, I find that odd. It's like saying a guy on a speedboat would have a hard time pointing a rifle at a circling coast guard cutter, even if that cutter was moving very quickly. I think drones should be able to track ANYTHING in the game EASILY. They're tinier than anything else out there and super maneuverable. So long as the damage they do is not sufficient to make them a really viable weapon against larger ships, they should have no problems attacking what their gun damage IS suited to. So here's my suggestion: Small drones: Tracking good enough to hit frigates easily Gun Range 10KM Speed high and maneuverability high Gun damage and ROF about equal to a frigate fast-firing gun (pulse laser, autocannon, blaster) Medium drones - slower, 20KM gun range, tracking good enough to hit cruisers easily but have a bit of trouble with exceptionally fast frigates, damage and ROF equal to a cruiser fast-firing gun. Heavy drones - longer range, tracking good enough to hit BS/industrial, trouble with fast moving cruisers, very hard to hit frigates.
Dreez	Posted - 2004.06.29 22:47:00 - [42] Originally by: ErrorS what the? heavy weapons vs. frigate.. frigate wins heavy drone vs. frigate.. frigate wins BATTLESHIP VS. FRIGATE.. FRIGATE WINS ugh.. interceptors are suppose to die quick Battleship carrying Anti-frigate drones = Battleship wins. Good Friggy pilot Vs nub battleship pilot = frigate wins. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.06.29 23:28:00 - [43] The solution to this problem is blindingly easy as far as I'm concerned: WEAPON - COUNTER Turrets - tracking disruptor, ECM, damps Missiles - defenders, smartbombs Drones - ??? Implement a "Drone Control Inhibitor I". Point one at an enemy ship and it loses control of some or all of its drones. The tech 1 version affects 50% of drones launched from a host ship, the tech 2 affects 60% and so on and so forth.
Sally	Posted - 2004.06.29 23:44:00 - [44] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The solution to this problem is blindingly easy as far as I'm concerned: WEAPON - COUNTER Turrets - tracking disruptor, ECM, damps Missiles - defenders, smartbombs Drones - ??? Implement a "Drone Control Inhibitor I". Point one at an enemy ship and it loses control of some or all of its drones. The tech 1 version affects 50% of drones launched from a host ship, the tech 2 affects 60% and so on and so forth. 2 L smart bombs. If the drone optimal weapon range would actually work and if ECM burst wouldn't be ****** up by the skill and if drones wouldn't have instant relock, then ECM burst would be a good module against drones too. Drones need to be fixed ASAP. -- Stories: #1 --
Liz Bathory	Posted - 2004.06.30 03:43:00 - [45] anyone saying that a single frigate will win agianst a bs, is smoking ***** i get about 45 dps from my rifter, with 3 125mm autocannon (uber rapidfiring, ultra short range), basically, an uberdrone with a human pilot to do that, i have to get inside micro smartbomb range, and even a mild sheildtank repairs more than that per second, so, i need lots of freinds to kill you you want to kill me in your bs? without guns, missiles or drones? mount 1 large smartbomb i'll either pop or run, in seconds that's if drones got nerfed to have the trcking of a big gun as is now.. i simply run away as soon as a bs shows, because evena little old granny in her minerthron, has enough heavy drones onbard to kill me 100 times over before i make it into range
Meridius	Posted - 2004.06.30 17:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Jeswyn Originally by: Meridius BS's cost a raw 90-100mil to make. So that's supposed to be enough of a justification to let them kill anything except another BS in a matter of seconds? Abso*****lutely Any lone frigate/cruiser should run there ass off if they see a bs. Quote:** Let's face it: Anyone with enough skillpoints to use a BS to anything else than mining/hauling has enough cash that one lost BS (that's 30 mil insurance money lost, not 100 mil. Unless they were dumb enough NOT to insure it) won't exactly bother them. Maybe if you run your ship with no equipment on it. Named equipment can make your ship worth up to half a billion. Why bother spending so much on expensive rare equipment when your barely a threat to a frigate/cruiser? Drones should be able to crush any frigate/interceptor who actually is foolish enough to attack/EW them. All they have to fix is the infinite range bug. ________________________________________________________
Hanns	Posted - 2004.07.01 10:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Berilac try they still 'wtfpwn' interceptors too. lets see: Evacive manuvering 5 - 15+ days Frigate 5 - 15+ Drones: drone 5 - 20 days Ceptors: 5m-8m isk 10 Heavy drones: 800k isk huh, your argument doesnt hold up... hahahaha AMEN brother! alos drones are *** and can keep shooting you up to and over 100km away, thye are stinky bugged and i wont fly a frigate in combat again til lthere fixed!!!
Hanns	Posted - 2004.07.01 10:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Berilac try they still 'wtfpwn' interceptors too. lets see: Evacive manuvering 5 - 15+ days Frigate 5 - 15+ Drones: drone 5 - 20 days Ceptors: 5m-8m isk 10 Heavy drones: 800k isk huh, your argument doesnt hold up... hahahaha AMEN brother! alos drones are *** and can keep shooting you up to and over 100km away, thye are stinky bugged and i wont fly a frigate in combat again til lthere fixed!!!
cymbal	Posted - 2004.07.01 11:13:00 - [49] Drones are bugged at the moment they hit 100% of the time for max damage every time , they also have unlimited range. This is a known bug that needs fixing before any changes are made to drones. Thats the reason cruisers/frigates are being killed so quickly and Bs can deploy drones a and mine all day without fear from NPC.
cymbal	Posted - 2004.07.01 11:13:00 - [50] Drones are bugged at the moment they hit 100% of the time for max damage every time , they also have unlimited range. This is a known bug that needs fixing before any changes are made to drones. Thats the reason cruisers/frigates are being killed so quickly and Bs can deploy drones a and mine all day without fear from NPC.
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2004.07.01 11:14:00 - [51] I dont know what you all are talking about but Heavy drones DO NOT kill off Interceptors in mere seconds if they are going faster than the drones. Heck a mwd equiped interceptor at close orbit takes a minute or longer to kill off with 9 Heavy Drones. A MINUTE IS 60 SECONDS not 2 or 3 as some of you make it sound like. PLUS If you read the storyline Drones were SPECIFICALLY MADE to combat small, super fast "fighter like" frigates that the Caldari had. A Heavy Drone is about 100 TIMES SMALLER AND LIGHTER than a frigate!!!!!! STOP WHINING AND USE THE RIGHT MODULES!!!!! There are ECM bursts and Smart Bombs, along with your own drones, that work VERY WELL on Drones. Of course some of you want to be able to have it all and not be able to be killed. TOUGH!!!! Drones were meant to fight small, Fast ships and they are doing their job just fine!! Only thing that needs to be fixed is the range bug to make it match what is listed on stats AND a speed boost. P.S. BTW drones will have speeds of 2000 M/s to 4000 M/s when Shiva comes along so unless you got 2 MWD's forget about running away "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2004.07.01 11:14:00 - [52] I dont know what you all are talking about but Heavy drones DO NOT kill off Interceptors in mere seconds if they are going faster than the drones. Heck a mwd equiped interceptor at close orbit takes a minute or longer to kill off with 9 Heavy Drones. A MINUTE IS 60 SECONDS not 2 or 3 as some of you make it sound like. PLUS If you read the storyline Drones were SPECIFICALLY MADE to combat small, super fast "fighter like" frigates that the Caldari had. A Heavy Drone is about 100 TIMES SMALLER AND LIGHTER than a frigate!!!!!! STOP WHINING AND USE THE RIGHT MODULES!!!!! There are ECM bursts and Smart Bombs, along with your own drones, that work VERY WELL on Drones. Of course some of you want to be able to have it all and not be able to be killed. TOUGH!!!! Drones were meant to fight small, Fast ships and they are doing their job just fine!! Only thing that needs to be fixed is the range bug to make it match what is listed on stats AND a speed boost. P.S. BTW drones will have speeds of 2000 M/s to 4000 M/s when Shiva comes along so unless you got 2 MWD's forget about running away "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
Grut	Posted - 2004.07.01 12:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Novo DuPont I dont know what you all are talking about but Heavy drones DO NOT kill off Interceptors in mere seconds if they are going faster than the drones. Heck a mwd equiped interceptor at close orbit takes a minute or longer to kill off with 9 Heavy Drones. A MINUTE IS 60 SECONDS not 2 or 3 as some of you make it sound like. What have you been smoking? Heavy drone dmg = 20 ish, against shields armour say 15 6 drones minimum on a bs so 90dmg every 2 secs so with a 600hp frig you have < 14 seconds to warpout, an inty closer to 20 and thats the maximium about of time. Originally by: Novo DuPont PLUS If you read the storyline Drones were SPECIFICALLY MADE to combat small, super fast "fighter like" frigates that the Caldari had. Read it again, drones where designed to counter small caldari fighters which they did well, the caldari with jove help then produced frigates to combat drones and where back to kicking gal arse. Originally by: Novo DuPont STOP WHINING AND USE THE RIGHT MODULES!!!!! There are ECM bursts and Smart Bombs, along with your own drones, that work VERY WELL on Drones. Of course some of you want to be able to have it all and not be able to be killed. The cycle time on an ecm burst is 30 secs, drones insta lock please tell me how this is an effective countermeasure. Large smarties are great for killing drones.... but how am i meant to dig up 1k of grid on my frig a t2 small takes about 10 cycles to kill a heavy... no frig has any chance of surviving for that long Mostly harmless
Grut	Posted - 2004.07.01 12:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Novo DuPont I dont know what you all are talking about but Heavy drones DO NOT kill off Interceptors in mere seconds if they are going faster than the drones. Heck a mwd equiped interceptor at close orbit takes a minute or longer to kill off with 9 Heavy Drones. A MINUTE IS 60 SECONDS not 2 or 3 as some of you make it sound like. What have you been smoking? Heavy drone dmg = 20 ish, against shields armour say 15 6 drones minimum on a bs so 90dmg every 2 secs so with a 600hp frig you have < 14 seconds to warpout, an inty closer to 20 and thats the maximium about of time. Originally by: Novo DuPont PLUS If you read the storyline Drones were SPECIFICALLY MADE to combat small, super fast "fighter like" frigates that the Caldari had. Read it again, drones where designed to counter small caldari fighters which they did well, the caldari with jove help then produced frigates to combat drones and where back to kicking gal arse. Originally by: Novo DuPont STOP WHINING AND USE THE RIGHT MODULES!!!!! There are ECM bursts and Smart Bombs, along with your own drones, that work VERY WELL on Drones. Of course some of you want to be able to have it all and not be able to be killed. The cycle time on an ecm burst is 30 secs, drones insta lock please tell me how this is an effective countermeasure. Large smarties are great for killing drones.... but how am i meant to dig up 1k of grid on my frig a t2 small takes about 10 cycles to kill a heavy... no frig has any chance of surviving for that long Mostly harmless
Nicholas Marshal	Posted - 2004.07.01 15:54:00 - [55] I wish the devs would just QUICKLY fix the drone bugs ffs. And that means within the month - not next year.
Nicholas Marshal	Posted - 2004.07.01 15:54:00 - [56] I wish the devs would just QUICKLY fix the drone bugs ffs. And that means within the month - not next year.
Hanns	Posted - 2004.07.01 16:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Grut Originally by: Novo DuPont I dont know what you all are talking about but Heavy drones DO NOT kill off Interceptors in mere seconds if they are going faster than the drones. Heck a mwd equiped interceptor at close orbit takes a minute or longer to kill off with 9 Heavy Drones. A MINUTE IS 60 SECONDS not 2 or 3 as some of you make it sound like. What have you been smoking? Heavy drone dmg = 20 ish, against shields armour say 15 6 drones minimum on a bs so 90dmg every 2 secs so with a 600hp frig you have < 14 seconds to warpout, an inty closer to 20 and thats the maximium about of time. Originally by: Novo DuPont PLUS If you read the storyline Drones were SPECIFICALLY MADE to combat small, super fast "fighter like" frigates that the Caldari had. Read it again, drones where designed to counter small caldari fighters which they did well, the caldari with jove help then produced frigates to combat drones and where back to kicking gal arse. Originally by: Novo DuPont STOP WHINING AND USE THE RIGHT MODULES!!!!! There are ECM bursts and Smart Bombs, along with your own drones, that work VERY WELL on Drones. Of course some of you want to be able to have it all and not be able to be killed. The cycle time on an ecm burst is 30 secs, drones insta lock please tell me how this is an effective countermeasure. Large smarties are great for killing drones.... but how am i meant to dig up 1k of grid on my frig a t2 small takes about 10 cycles to kill a heavy... no frig has any chance of surviving for that long hahaha WTFPWNED!
Hanns	Posted - 2004.07.01 16:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Grut Originally by: Novo DuPont I dont know what you all are talking about but Heavy drones DO NOT kill off Interceptors in mere seconds if they are going faster than the drones. Heck a mwd equiped interceptor at close orbit takes a minute or longer to kill off with 9 Heavy Drones. A MINUTE IS 60 SECONDS not 2 or 3 as some of you make it sound like. What have you been smoking? Heavy drone dmg = 20 ish, against shields armour say 15 6 drones minimum on a bs so 90dmg every 2 secs so with a 600hp frig you have < 14 seconds to warpout, an inty closer to 20 and thats the maximium about of time. Originally by: Novo DuPont PLUS If you read the storyline Drones were SPECIFICALLY MADE to combat small, super fast "fighter like" frigates that the Caldari had. Read it again, drones where designed to counter small caldari fighters which they did well, the caldari with jove help then produced frigates to combat drones and where back to kicking gal arse. Originally by: Novo DuPont STOP WHINING AND USE THE RIGHT MODULES!!!!! There are ECM bursts and Smart Bombs, along with your own drones, that work VERY WELL on Drones. Of course some of you want to be able to have it all and not be able to be killed. The cycle time on an ecm burst is 30 secs, drones insta lock please tell me how this is an effective countermeasure. Large smarties are great for killing drones.... but how am i meant to dig up 1k of grid on my frig a t2 small takes about 10 cycles to kill a heavy... no frig has any chance of surviving for that long hahaha WTFPWNED!
meowcat	Posted - 2004.07.01 22:27:00 - [59] Edited by: meowcat on 01/07/2004 22:28:48 even heavy drones are smaller than frigates/interceptors... i dont understand why they should find it hard to hit them? a heavy drone is 250m3, a shuttle is 5000m3, a frigate is...? nerfing their tracking vs. frigates doesn't make sense to me ~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~ yeah but no but yeah but no but
meowcat	Posted - 2004.07.01 22:27:00 - [60] Edited by: meowcat on 01/07/2004 22:28:48 even heavy drones are smaller than frigates/interceptors... i dont understand why they should find it hard to hit them? a heavy drone is 250m3, a shuttle is 5000m3, a frigate is...? nerfing their tracking vs. frigates doesn't make sense to me ~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~ yeah but no but yeah but no but

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