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seen talk of removal of local from 0.0

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Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.10.30 00:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Kagura Nikon because 9 in 10 cloakers are rattign ravens not recons. Those should not be imune FOREVER. PRobign a cloaked ship shoudl take LONG time but shoudl be doable. PRobign a recon shoudl take like 30 minutes to 1 hour, so you can hunt that ship you know is there semi AFK. CCP stated thousands of times they do not want anyone to play afk. Cloak shoudl give you security for a few minutes (like 10min) on a non cloaker and a long time in a cloaker. Sometimes I may be asked to sit on a jump bridge for 2 weeks, noting traffic patterns in the system, heaviest times of use, ect. Sometimes my job may be to simply sit in local, and note the traffic patterns of the entire system, or your particular station, to sit and watch, looking for any particularly juicy targets, and then finding their habits and practices. Its called doing recon on a target, oddly enough, you do that IN A RECON. The ships ability to do that shouldn't be hampered cause your upset somebody is in local...oh wait, local will be delayed, so as long as I keep my mouth shut, you should never know I'm there doing that (as it should be) and so you should no longer have complaints about afk cloakers in local. The point is, its often a thankless job that sometimes takes days, weeks, even a month for solid intel to appear in a pattern form. Allowing the scanning of recons and covops makes this job nigh impossible.
Apeshit	Posted - 2008.10.30 00:53:00 - [32] In the Eve universe... what technology tells you who is in system? In high sec - I can imagine these governments demand the right to know everybody is? Can or would systems in null sec afford/want or desire a technology that automatically tells all players their locations. In all the movies/series these lawless areas arewhere the badguys live.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.30 01:39:00 - [33] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 30/10/2008 01:39:15 An exceptionally stupid idea advocated by non-thinking fools. If Local is removed, then it must be replaced with something AT LEAST as functional and user friendly. Doubt me??? .....then do you really think CCP is going casually throw away all the work they've done in the last three+ years to develope 0.0 into warring player empires? Think about it..... This whole issue is one of the reason I support opening new space that is seperate from the existing 0.0, low sec and high sec. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Sergeant Spot An exceptionally stupid idea advocated by non-thinking fools. Thanks, were thinking of you too Originally by: Sergeant Spot If Local is removed, then it must be replaced with something AT LEAST as functional and user friendly. Why? Why should you get that much info for free? How can you argue that it doesn't ruin roaming by letting everyone in system know your there as soon as you arrive? Whats the point of roaming currently? Jump in, your in local, hit scanner, raven on scan, warp to his belt, halfway there he cloaks or drops off scanner, only to log off, or re-appear on scan in a POS. THAT IS LAME, AND TO FIRE YOUR OWN LINE BACK AT YOU: An exceptionally stupid idea advocated by non-thinking fools Originally by: Sergeant Spot .....then do you really think CCP is going casually throw away all the work they've done in the last three+ years to develope 0.0 into warring player empires? How would putting local in delayed mode hurt this? What base do you make this argument from? What, everybody's name doesn't show up so its no longer populated feeling? TBH the local smack would likely drop a good bit from it Originally by: Sergeant Spot This whole issue is one of the reason I support opening new space that is seperate from the existing 0.0, low sec and high sec. This is a whole different issue, and I agree that this would also be a good idea, kinda round out the map of eve into a more spherical shape instead of the "dinner plate" disk of stars that it is now (yes, i know, put the map in 3-d, but its still basically disk shaped)
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:33:00 - [35] Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Spurty stoopid idea serves only cloaked twits parked at a gate for 8 hours a day. sup o/ Kaar (Weirda miss you!) __ weirda
Tallonn Dex	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:39:00 - [36] I am really a bit worried about Local being removed/jacked with in 0.0. Shouldn't CCP be doing something to try to entice high-sec folks to come to low-sec - not discourage them? This change is not one of the things that is going to entice more folks to 0.0, in my opinion. For gankers/pirates, it will be a blast of course. :) Hopefully CCP will soon be able to go into more detail about the scanning changes that really need to happen hand-in-hand with any sort of "Local" removal. If they are basically going to make it so you have to skill-up certain skills to get a similar level of intel we can get now with Local, then that will be interesting to see. Cautiously optimistic.
Katherine Marx Muff Diving	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:42:00 - [37] prototype cloaking devices and improved cloaking devices have a 60 second activation limit and a 300 second re-activation delay. finding ratting ravens problem solved. (change activation times and re-activation times to something more balanced maybe)
Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:53:00 - [38] I'll hit you both at once, to save space Originally by: Tallonn Dex Shouldn't CCP be doing something to try to entice high-sec folks to come to low-sec - not discourage them? This change is not one of the things that is going to entice more folks to 0.0, in my opinion. For gankers/pirates, it will be a blast of course. :) First, he said 0.0, not lowsec. Nobody has mentioned making local delayed in lowsec, just 0.0. Second, wtf is with the term "ganker", its like, omg, he's pvping in a pvp centric game, he's a ganker! It has tons of tactical applications beyond ratting, like recons actually doing recon unseen, preparing for attacks and such, gathering intel, ninja ratting/mining with active scouts (something small corps could more easily get away with post change). But also patrols lead by the holders of the space, raiders going into neighboring space for quick hits, the possiblities are pretty nice Originally by: Katherine Marx prototype cloaking devices and improved cloaking devices have a 60 second activation limit and a 300 second re-activation delay. finding ratting ravens problem solved. (change activation times and re-activation times to something more balanced maybe) So your basically taking a huge dump on Stealth Bombers and Black Ops saying they can only stay cloaked for 60 seconds? Also it doesn't fix the "warp to pos", "warp to safe and log", "warp to station and dock" or any of the other things that ruin roaming in 0.0
Tyler Rainez Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Sebea Originally by: Kagura Nikon because 9 in 10 cloakers are rattign ravens not recons. Those should not be imune FOREVER. PRobign a cloaked ship shoudl take LONG time but shoudl be doable. PRobign a recon shoudl take like 30 minutes to 1 hour, so you can hunt that ship you know is there semi AFK. CCP stated thousands of times they do not want anyone to play afk. Cloak shoudl give you security for a few minutes (like 10min) on a non cloaker and a long time in a cloaker. Sometimes I may be asked to sit on a jump bridge for 2 weeks, noting traffic patterns in the system, heaviest times of use, ect. Sometimes my job may be to simply sit in local, and note the traffic patterns of the entire system, or your particular station, to sit and watch, looking for any particularly juicy targets, and then finding their habits and practices. Its called doing recon on a target, oddly enough, you do that IN A RECON. The ships ability to do that shouldn't be hampered cause your upset somebody is in local...oh wait, local will be delayed, so as long as I keep my mouth shut, you should never know I'm there doing that (as it should be) and so you should no longer have complaints about afk cloakers in local. The point is, its often a thankless job that sometimes takes days, weeks, even a month for solid intel to appear in a pattern form. Allowing the scanning of recons and covops makes this job nigh impossible. I agree that a delayed local in 0.0 is The Right Thing to do, with or without the automatic scanning. But I also feel that cloakers (yes even recons), should not be immune to being found. Trying to balance a game like Eve is a gigantic undertaking, but there something that everyone seems to be forgetting. The only 100% safe place should be inside a station. That's it. No where else. Cloakers should not be immune to being found. Now I'm also in favor of making it extremly difficult to find cloakers as well, just make it balanced. It's quite unfair for someone to show up in local and sit 8 hours afk cloaked and have no reprocussions. I'm sorry but when someone does that, just shows the game is unbalanced. Since there are recon ships, designed for cloaking there should be a ship designed to find them. With that in mind a raven, mega, etc.. cloaked should be able to be found, say in 5 mins. A cloaked ship? maybe 30 mins tops. This would make, what I believe (and many others as well) a balanced game. A recon ship can still do it's job, it just has to keep moving to avoid detection, simple and effective without getting nerf'd. All the while preventing full safety outside of station and making people play instead of being afk. My 0.02 isk I only have two things in this world, my word and my balls and I don't break'em for nobody! -- Tony Montana
Yunii Gallente Black Serpent Technologies Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.30 04:05:00 - [40] Edited by: Yunii on 30/10/2008 04:06:37 Originally by: Etchyboy I am all for removal of local as long as the following are added. 1. give us a way to find cloakers. 2. All belts will have to be probed to find them. 3. Belts will get reset to a random location every few days. 4. When a probe is in use give us a way to detect it. After all this is a form of active sonar and as such should be detectable. 1) Any ship should be able to be detected, even if its hard. make anything but the Cov-Ops cloak use Cap & much longer re-cloaking times on anything but the Cov-Ops cloaks. System scanners should be able to locate Prototype and Improved cloakers but not the Cov-Ops cloakers. Cov-Ops could be located with the use of lvl 5 probes only, ie Obsevators or a New type of probe that requires a couple lvl 5's to use, Astro, pin-pointing, triangulation, etc.. They want to cloak and go afk they should be able to be found. If they are actively moving around it's still a lot harder to catch them. 2&3) Use the ship scanner to find the belts, like the Cos Anom scanner. Every ship can use it, doesn't require a lot of skill. The belts should move every day, tbh. But still be around the planets they are on. 4) Unless the prober gets lucky with the long distance probes, you can see the shorter range probes on your ship scanner. They can't be hidden. The probes can even be probed out by other probes. ------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Arkanon I think this thread also illustrates perfectly that we neither censor nor do we try to silence our customers.

Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.10.30 05:08:00 - [41] See, i see alot of you talking about the improved cloak and making ships that fit it able to be probed out quickly. That would pretty much take any use that stealth bombers and black ops BS have or may gain and flush them right down the drain. IF, and that's a big a** IF, they let cov ops/black ops/SB/Recons get probed down, it should be hard, like really hard to get an accurate hit, like 20-30km should be the closest you can get, and that's IF its sitting still, if its moving, it should be nigh impossible. Short of that, you should just remove the cloaking ships from the game as your totally breaking them otherwise, because their job becomes impossible: "oop, saw a falcon jump in system, start scanning" 10 minutes later the falcon pilot is dead, or the cov ops, or the ...well you get the picture. No, it shouldn't be safe anywhere in the game, but the few ships (Stealth Bombers, Black Ops, Cov Ops, and Covert Recons) should ALWAYS be able to perform their basic function of lurking without the near constant threat of being found. What good is a Black Ops battleship if it can't sit cloaked? It can't warp cloaked, so its only moving so far, once probed on a grid, it would literally be a matter of seconds (likely 30 or less) till a half way talented force decloaked and blew it up, and its ITS JOB TO HIDE. If you did your real job that well, I'm sure they'd fire you inside the hour.
Dr EVile	Posted - 2008.10.30 06:45:00 - [42] Edited by: Dr EVile on 30/10/2008 06:55:05 I really hope they remove local chat channel. Very cheesy you can automatic always know who is in system with no scanning. Anyone who says it just benefits cloakers if removed is beyond me. Cloaking gold farmers would be at a MUCH greater risk not always knowing if someone jumps into system as soon as they jump into system. I think it would be a nice improvement removing local chat, or removing the ability to see who is listed in channel. For the crybabies, o noo you have to work using a scanner LIKE YOU SHOULD HAVE TO. Quit the crying. EVE is supposed to be hardcore and realistic but has the hello kitty local chat so you can always know when someone jumps into system. Please remove local chat.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.30 06:49:00 - [43] Not this again. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Dr EVile	Posted - 2008.10.30 06:50:00 - [44] Edited by: Dr EVile on 30/10/2008 06:53:06 Edited by: Dr EVile on 30/10/2008 06:52:32 Originally by: Luciat I for one will never rat or mine again if the delayed local gets introduced. I will however stock up on Stelath bombers and recons and never fly a non-cloaking ship agian. I will then hit 0.0 and sit in belts with friends waiting for the ratters to blissfully rat, whilst spamming the scan button and not finding us because we are cloaked, then OMGWTFBBQ them and cloak up again. If acts of agression force you to appear in local, simply jump to the next system, rinse and repeat. Unbalanced? Youbetchya! Unbalanced? Just group and rat solo, wait for stealthers like you, as soon as you show yourself have all the groupies warp in and splat, one squashed stealth. NOT having local cheat channel would HURT cloakers doing this ganking because you can't be sure if that ratter is alone. Not unbalanced. Tactics>cloaking gankers
InSession Minmatar Mafia Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.30 07:06:00 - [45] I see this as good and bad, and mind you I am talking from my perspective, which is PvP. Good: - No longer will people be warping or logging off as soon as I enter local. - Being cloaked now will actually be covert - Possibly more kills to be had - No more AFK ratting, no more macro ratting? Bad: - People afraid of ratting in 0.0 - People aligning while ratting, so as soon as I find them they just warp - L4 Empire missions are even more safer now, 0.0 isn't worth it. --------------- I hope CCP can make it so that 0.0 is worth the risk, or tone done Empire missions a bit. I'm for the removal of local though, because I <3 scouting.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.30 07:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Dr EVile Tactics>cloaking gankers>pilots trying to make money Fixed it for you. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Asa Sigrun	Posted - 2008.10.30 08:43:00 - [47] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Luciat I for one will never rat or mine again if the delayed local gets introduced. I will however stock up on Stelath bombers and recons and never fly a non-cloaking ship agian. I will then hit 0.0 and sit in belts with friends waiting for the ratters to blissfully rat, whilst spamming the scan button and not finding us because we are cloaked, then OMGWTFBBQ them and cloak up again. If acts of agression force you to appear in local, simply jump to the next system, rinse and repeat. Unbalanced? Youbetchya! And everyone docking up because I turn up in local isnt unbalanced? This change will just sort out the aware from the nubs. you're right CCP doesnt want new players anyway.
baltec1 R.U.S.T.	Posted - 2008.10.30 09:38:00 - [48] Originally by: Asa Sigrun Originally by: baltec1 you're right CCP doesnt want new players anyway. They can learn? If people are not willing to protect themselves and work together then they deserve what they get.
Pandora Pirinello	Posted - 2008.10.30 09:41:00 - [49] Edited by: Pandora Pirinello on 30/10/2008 09:42:06 Put a 20 second delay on membership to local, its enough There will be real RISK in 0.0 carebearing, so buffing the isk it generates isnt a bad thing, make it more profitable than running level 4s at least.....
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Chances of Misfortune	Posted - 2008.10.30 09:52:00 - [50] I support the removal of local from 0.0, but only systems without sovereignty. With the exception of unsovereigned systems in constellations that have constellation sovereignty. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.30 10:05:00 - [51] Originally by: Pandora Pirinello Edited by: Pandora Pirinello on 30/10/2008 09:42:06 Put a 20 second delay on membership to local, its enough There will be real RISK in 0.0 carebearing, so buffing the isk it generates isnt a bad thing, make it more profitable than running level 4s at least..... That's right, because there's no risk involved in claiming space in the first place, right?
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.30 11:32:00 - [52] It is going to be hilarious when an alliance member spend time and probes to sneak up upon... a fellow alliance member. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.30 11:34:00 - [53] Only Recons, covops, SB's and Blackops should be able to cloak indefinitely. They should NEVER be able to be probed out. End of as far as i am concerned; i don't even think 'normal' ships should be able to cloak.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.30 11:37:00 - [54] Originally by: InSession Bad: - People afraid of ratting in 0.0 - People aligning while ratting, so as soon as I find them they just warp Doesn't those two sort of contradict each other? In fact I see removal of local as a boost for my solo operations in low sec. I know everybody are hostiles as I have no friends, and as I know very well how the scanner work in can work in safety if not unnoticed. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.30 11:41:00 - [55] Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 30/10/2008 11:42:01 Originally by: Sebea Originally by: Kagura Nikon because 9 in 10 cloakers are rattign ravens not recons. Those should not be imune FOREVER. PRobign a cloaked ship shoudl take LONG time but shoudl be doable. PRobign a recon shoudl take like 30 minutes to 1 hour, so you can hunt that ship you know is there semi AFK. CCP stated thousands of times they do not want anyone to play afk. Cloak shoudl give you security for a few minutes (like 10min) on a non cloaker and a long time in a cloaker. Sometimes I may be asked to sit on a jump bridge for 2 weeks, noting traffic patterns in the system, heaviest times of use, ect. Sometimes my job may be to simply sit in local, and note the traffic patterns of the entire system, or your particular station, to sit and watch, looking for any particularly juicy targets, and then finding their habits and practices. Its called doing recon on a target, oddly enough, you do that IN A RECON. The ships ability to do that shouldn't be hampered cause your upset somebody is in local...oh wait, local will be delayed, so as long as I keep my mouth shut, you should never know I'm there doing that (as it should be) and so you should no longer have complaints about afk cloakers in local. The point is, its often a thankless job that sometimes takes days, weeks, even a month for solid intel to appear in a pattern form. Allowing the scanning of recons and covops makes this job nigh impossible. You miss the point. You are makign recon, then you are not afk.. otherwise you are a horrible recon. Some way to implementa the detaction coudl be that you need to use spacial probe tha take slogner. And he wil land you in the same grid as the cloaked ship. Then you can deploy another special probbe.. that wil take like 5 min to find him and give you a warp in around 10 km so you can manually look for him. If you are not afk you can easily evade that with both hands at your back and pilotingwith your nose. But the serius issues are think like TITANS staying cloaked for dozens of hours. That is plain STUPID. Don't een think capitals shoudl be able to cloak. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.30 11:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Druadan Edited by: Druadan on 30/10/2008 10:29:56 I support the removal of local from 0.0, but only systems without sovereignty. With the exception of unsovereigned systems in constellations that have constellation sovereignty. Edit: As an addendum to that, large fleets should show up on the solar system map as a hazy coloured blob or something, to show the presence of a huge compound signature. taht is somethign that can be achieved by for example the POS system scanner. Make it able to provide local for people in the POS :) And be able to probe cloaked ships. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.30 12:03:00 - [57] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim Nobody should be able to log off every time somebody enters a system and thus rat in total safety. U realise that they wont know if some1 enters system? lol EVE history Missiles post-nerf
sliver 0xD exiles. The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.10.30 13:08:00 - [58] this will defenetly give a nasty twist to the game. at one point i like the control the local gives me. nobody in local i am safe. but on the other side i realy like to sneak up on the cloaking macro raven and finaly send his cheating ass back to hell for ever! --- Somebody needs a hug!
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2008.10.30 13:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Leeluvv The concept is to change 0.0 local to delayed, so only those that speak appear in local, Should only apply to covert ops, recons (maybe), stealth bombers, black ops.
Escrava Isaura	Posted - 2008.10.30 14:50:00 - [60] - remove local - add passive scanning (maybe increase the max scan range, 20AU or something) - increase the start locking delay on ships able to use the covert-ops cloaking by alot (they will still be perfect for gattering intel and making slings but this way it wont make the belts empty, and they will still do their job in gangs but it gives a reason to use combat recons for that) - remove the ability to fit cloaks on ships without a bonus to that module - reduce the time needed to probe plexes - reduce high-sec isk to balance the 0.0 increased risk



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