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the importance of T2 BPOs

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Morgan Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 1	Posted - 2012.05.08 17:36:00 - [151] - Quote Haulie Berry wrote: Morgan Dinn wrote: Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then? Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again. Tough i would loose quite abit in that :( Do you not understand that BPOs have asset value? How is it possible for any one person to own this much of the world's share of stupidity? Save some for someone else, yeesh. Could you be any more obvious about your agenda? You presented an argument. I blew your argument out of the water with incontrovertible math, and your response is, "Well, even though I'm completely wrong, let's remove them anyway just because." This makes it obvious that you don't care about the wellfare of the system or whether or not invention works. You've probably never even plugged in an invention job in your life. You're clearly just jealous that other people have things. Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so. And I did check some numbers yes. You are correct you can make pretty good isks out from invention on some stuff not all. Tough it will not change my opinion that something needs to be done to the originals.
Haulie Berry 44	Posted - 2012.05.08 17:39:00 - [152] - Quote Morgan Dinn wrote: Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/64763/2012/04/what-is-this-i-dont-even-spiderman.jpg Quote: There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so. The last bastion of the idiot who has finally realized how stupid he is: "Well, err, uhh... look, man, everyone has an opinion, right? There's no right or wrong answer, duuuude." Stupid and spineless. Some people have all the luck.
Ore Bunny Kuh Schubs Clan 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 17:49:00 - [153] - Quote Morgan Dinn wrote: I would be fine with either having more T2 originals or removing T2 BPOs. suuuuure... makes a lot of sense... mind linking us the sell-thread of these said prints?
Morgan Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 1	Posted - 2012.05.08 17:58:00 - [154] - Quote Haulie Berry wrote: Morgan Dinn wrote: Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/64763/2012/04/what-is-this-i-dont-even-spiderman.jpg Quote: There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so. The last bastion of the idiot who has finally realized how stupid he is: "Well, err, uhh... look, man, everyone has an opinion, right? There's no right or wrong answer, duuuude." Stupid and spineless. Some people have all the luck. It's actualy funny how intellectual you think you are and then you go so low as calling someone stupid, spineles and putting out links of what ever and actualy think you won something and ignore some parts anyways. Basicly your just a greedy ***. Do you know what happens to greedy **? If you don't, think about it I'm done here as this realy aint moving in any direction.
shar'ra matcevsovski Hedion University Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2012.05.08 18:09:00 - [155] - Quote Morgan Dinn wrote: I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs right-click/trash? See, I hoenstly dont think anyone ITT is scared that T2 BPO`s are ever getting touched. like you say, if they would ever change their mind and acutally touch em, I dont think they would need some crybabys to make threads about how jelly they are, either. EDIT: also against your shuttle disaster, any counter-post can be seen as a win ;)
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 18:10:00 - [156] - Quote Morgan Dinn wrote: I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs. Any of those. Don't care which. And no I'm not the guy who ever you are trying to make me be Invention is not always profitable because there is a lot of competition : everyone and his dog invent and the dogs aren't very skilled for the maths involved in the process, producing at a loss or feeding a saturated market... So what you want is more competition : removing T2 bpo or being able to compete with in terms of ME, or seeding more new T2 bpos. Are you really thinking that this will benefit to producers ? Everyone will do the same thing at the same time and the profits will be even thinner. (See the T1 market...) T2 Bpos are high-end items, which can't be purchased before a long and successfull business plan. There are ways to make isks from industry, not only T2 stuff. In December 2011- January 2012, I made a gross 60 Bil profit from PI. Enough to purchase a T2 bpo. Those who whine about T2 bpos are imo short sighted industrialists and low-skilled businessmen. There is no issue with T2 bpo : proof : - Are T2 items too much expansive ? No - Are T2 items in shortage ? No - With their limited supply, can T2 bpo saturate a market ? No because the overproduction comes from invention. (hundreds of inventors doing the same thing at the same time) - Would the removal of T2 bpos make the impopular mods and ships popular ? No because the reasons why they are in low demand are due to game mechanics. - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. Spend less time whining in forums and more on your excel sheets ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 82	Posted - 2012.05.08 20:07:00 - [157] - Quote Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.
Haulie Berry 44	Posted - 2012.05.08 20:13:00 - [158] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'. Actually, it WAS a huge investment (of time) to win them in the lottery. Still waiting to hear which items would become attractive to invent if it weren't for BPOs. As previously noted, interceptors would not become attractive options, so please try again.
sodney corporation 32191 13	Posted - 2012.05.08 20:37:00 - [159] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'. Are you ever gona drop this realy reeaaaaly dumb argument? When people don`t aggree with you, it`s not necesarry because you didnt spam the same crap not often enough. a lottery is 100% random aka 100% fair. If you say CCP did cheat in these lotteries, bring evidences already or dont bring that topic.
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 21:58:00 - [160] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'. In my case this have never happened. In all cases except one this have never happened. You are only good at insulting people or what ? I am the argument against your discourse: I bought all my T2 BPOS ! ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 82	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:14:00 - [161] - Quote Haulie Berry wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'. Zero people who were given BPOs by a CCP employee still have them today, so I'm not sure why you keep clinging to that assertion like it's a security blanket. I will assume it's for lack of anything relevant to say. Also, in point of fact, it WAS a huge investment (of time) to win them in the lottery. Still waiting to hear which items would become attractive to invent if it weren't for BPOs. As previously noted, interceptors would not become attractive options, so please try again. For the third time interceptors and yes you forgot to mention the special events where CCP gave out T2BPO's ie the mining ones.
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 82	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:19:00 - [162] - Quote sodney wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'. Are you ever gona drop this realy reeaaaaly dumb argument? When people don`t aggree with you, it`s not necesarry because you didnt spam the same crap not often enough. a lottery is 100% random aka 100% fair. If you say CCP did cheat in these lotteries, bring evidences already or dont bring that topic. A lottery is not 100% random if the details of it's prize structure and ticket numbers are known. I'm not going to be your own private eve wiki or google but I suggest you go review the lottery to find out how people were able to rapidly increasce their 'chance' of winning a T2bpo, primarly being mailed ticket numbers by guess who a ccp employee. By Ticket numbers I mean how many were in each lottery and how many BPO's were on offer. Anyone who says T2BPO were introduced fairly or in an legit fashion is detached from reality, remove them.
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:29:00 - [163] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: A lottery is not 100% random if the details of it's prize structure and ticket numbers are known. I'm not going to be your own private eve wiki or google but I suggest you go review the lottery to find out how people were able to rapidly increasce their 'chance' of winning a T2bpo, primarly being mailed ticket numbers by guess who a ccp employee. By Ticket numbers I mean how many were in each lottery and how many BPO's were on offer. Anyone who says T2BPO were introduced fairly or in an legit fashion is detached from reality, remove them. LOL, you know what, I don't care how T2 BPOs were introduced, and as you don't answer me, I repeat : I bought them all , CCP did not give me any You still have no proof and you are still accusing CCP and/or its employees to be fundamentally dishonest. That is insulting. I would not let in my house someone's insulting me, but I'm not CCP There were not ticket at the T2 bpo lottery, it was random system, you ignorant. And about the T2 miner bpos, who cares ? CCP is still distributing high-value prizes each year with no problem for everyone (Alliance Tournament) ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:46:00 - [164] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Anyone who says T2BPO were introduced fairly or in an legit fashion is detached from reality, remove them. You ask for a remove but almost all T2 bpos have changed of hands since years. Would it be legit and fair to remove them from hands of honest players who purchased them legally ? T2 Bpos were introduced fairly and legit and you can't figure how I'm happy to not be part of your reality ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Shoogie Serious Pixels 36	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:49:00 - [165] - Quote Morgan Dinn wrote: Well now Here goes. Lets say we will build and sell and imaginery tech 2 shuttle that has a material need of 2000 tritanium with perfect ME level. and also lets imagine that trit costs 1 isks. I would like to use your own T2 shuttle example to show you why you are mistaken. You have completely forgotten about supply and demand. Given: it costs the BPO owner 2k isk to manufacture each shuttle from a researched BPO. Given: it costs the inventor 3k isk to invent and manufacture from a BPC. To discuss the supply side, we need some more assumptions. How about these: * There exists 20 BPOs for this T2 shuttle in the game. * It takes 1 day to build this shuttle from a researched BPO. * It takes 1.5 days to build this shuttle from an invented BPC. * There are thousands of inventors in the game who have the skills to invent and build shuttles, should they choose. Math below: One BPO can build 30 shuttles per month. If all 20 BPOs are fully utilized, 600 shuttles can enter the game from BPOs per month. (20 BPOs * 30) = 600 An inventor with 10 manufacturing lines can manufacture 200 shuttles per month. (10 lines * 30 days / 1.5 days per unit) = 200 So now we must consider the demand side. The game "consumes" a certain number of each item per month. They could be blown up. They could be stuck it in someone's hangar gathering dust. Either way, this is the demand for the item. Demand for items in this game are generally un-elastic. Changing the price slightly will not significantly change the demand. Demand is mainly changed by meta-game effects. (When something gets buffed, demand will go up. When something gets nerfed, demand will go down. When an alliance decides they want to change their fleets from Drakes to Maelstroms, the demand for Heavy Missile Launcher IIs goes down while the demand for 1400mm Artillery IIs goes up.) Imagine this T2 shuttle has low demand. It is not a very good item. Only 500 are consumed gamewide per month. 600 can enter the game per month from BPOs. After a couple of months, there will be a glut of these shuttles on the market. The different BPO owners will be 1 isking each other to try to get their shuttles sold. The price on the market goes down until it is barely over 2000 isk each. When the price gets this low, some of the BPO owners decide it is not worth the effort to manufacture and play 1 isk games, so they quit building. An equilibrium price will be reached, perhaps around 2200 isk. No inventors will touch this item, because they cannot make a profit. Some of the BPO owners are getting a small profit. Some of the BPO owners have given up and are getting no profit. Alternatively, imagine this T2 shuttle has high demand, and 2000 are consumed per month. Only 600 can enter the game through BPOs. If there were no invention, then after a few months there would be no more shuttles left on the market. The BPO owners could charge whatever they wanted. This is what happened to the T2 Capacitor Rechargers in 2005. They only cost ~200k to build, but the BPO owners could charge 20M isk each, and laugh all the way to the bank. At about the 20M isk range, consumers started deciding, "Screw that. I'll use a cheaper T1 Cap Rechargers and accept the lesser performance." Quote: "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." -Publilus Syrus Then invention was introduced. Inventors can literally build any T2 item in the game, and are free to switch from one item to the next to chase higher profits. Since BPOs cannot meet the demand for this shuttle, then the price will rise. When the price rises to a certain point, inventors will get involved and fill the unmet demand. Different inventors start 1 isking each other to get their stock sold first. BPO owners sell at the same price as the inventors. (Why would they accept smaller profits than necessary?) The equilibrium price for the shuttles will be around 3600 isk. This is enough profit for inventors to be interested. If too many inventors start building them, then the price will drop. When the profits are too low, inventors will choose a different item, supply drops, and prices rise again. At equilibrium, inventors will be producing approximately 1400 shuttles per month, exactly enough to fill the unmet demand. One inventor can build 200 shuttles per month at a cost of 3000 isk each. They are sold for 3600 isk each. Total profit for this month = 120,000 isk. (200600) One BPO can build 30 shuttles per month at a cost of 2000 isk each. They are sold for 3600 isk each. Total profit per month for this BPO is 48,000 isk. (301600) Of course, this BPO owner has 9 more manufacturing lines he can use. Suppose he is also inventing shuttles. He can make 180 through invention and 30 from the BPO. Total profit per month is 156,000 isk. (180600 + 301600) Is the difference really so huge as to be considered broken? Of course the T2 BPO owner should make more, they paid for it by buying (or not selling) their BPO. While the T2 BPO owners can make somewhat more than inventors ON A HIGH DEMAND ITEM, they can never push inventors out of the market. On a low demand item, even T2 BPO owners are not guaranteed any profit at all.
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:55:00 - [166] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: For the third time interceptors and yes you forgot to mention the special events where CCP gave out T2BPO's ie the mining ones. Interceptors were profitable to invent in the 2007-2009 years, I remember I was producing Crow and Claws regularly, Crusaders also. I had no bpo for them and had no problem to sell them with good profit. Today Inties are in lower demand. Game mechanics behind this not T2 bpos ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Haulie Berry 44	Posted - 2012.05.08 22:58:00 - [167] - Quote Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Haulie Berry wrote: Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Lara Dantreb wrote: [ - Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest. It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'. Zero people who were given BPOs by a CCP employee still have them today, so I'm not sure why you keep clinging to that assertion like it's a security blanket. I will assume it's for lack of anything relevant to say. Also, in point of fact, it WAS a huge investment (of time) to win them in the lottery. Still waiting to hear which items would become attractive to invent if it weren't for BPOs. As previously noted, interceptors would not become attractive options, so please try again. For the third time interceptors and yes you forgot to mention the special events where CCP gave out T2BPO's ie the mining ones. Why is it that you don't understand that saying the same incorrect things repeatedly doesn't magically make them true? Feel free to show some math on how interceptors would become an attractive choice for invention. I have provided math on why they would not. Until you can do the same, this is just your typical make-****-up-as-you go modus operandi.
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.08 23:35:00 - [168] - Quote Invention was profitable, you can see a picture of my saved Excel spreadsheet below, used for the last time on 2009, June 14th You can see sorted by margin what to invent and how. The complete sheet has 456 lines and the xls file weights 8,6 Mo I don't use it anymore due to lack of interest for invention, but this is the proof that : I invented much (my corpmates also, tens of inventors involved) I know what I'm talking about and did all the maths to make it profitable business Even If I had tens of T2 ship bpos at this moment, I was inventing also for great profits. T2 bpos and invention are no antinomic but complementary What to invent and how sorted by margins Probability Matrix Used Edit : added ship prices (Jita, 2009/06/14) : T2 ship prices ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Lara Dantreb New Horizons 4	Posted - 2012.05.09 14:27:00 - [169] - Quote You asked for numbers, here they are. I did my homework and updated my spreadsheet database (which was pre Dominion) and prices from EVE-Central (Jita) This is what is the rank list for TODAY of what is profitable to invent What to invent - ships Invention is profitable no need to accuse T2 bpos to kill the market. Just not be dumb and invent wisely ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á ---
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 738	Posted - 2012.05.31 18:31:00 - [170] - Quote nm

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