Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.

89.77% of 1400mm II, 82.00% of Tachyon II, 87.34% of 425mm Rail II, 74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II produced in March were from invention.

66.13% of Ishtars and 63.53% of Zealots produced in March 2012 were produced via invention. #tweetfleet

27.60% of Curses and 22.16% of Pilgrims produced in March 2012 were from invention. #tweetfleet

CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs

https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras

some of the quotes:





since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though

CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs

https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras

some of the quotes:









since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though

I'll disagree and say that T2 BPOs are not necessary for the market to function. Invention could easily pickup the slack. And as mentioned many times before, the presence of T2 BPOs only impacts the low-demand, low-volume markets where the BPO owner can produce enough to meet demand and squeeze the inventors out (no datacore/decryptor costs, no copy slot costs, less materials).

As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to.

That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do.

If T2 BPOs were removed/nerfed/turned into turnips then the size of the Absolution market would still be tiny and pretty much pointless to invent for.

The answer to any market where T2 BPOs dominate is to make the item in question less terrible.

That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do.

T2 BPO owners are at an advantage no matter what when it comes to manufacturing one or a few items but the limited supply and costs of T2 BPOS inhibits the individual T2 BPO holders ability to be change production as the market shifts.

What i get from this is that T2 BPO's are needed in game to fill demand that invention doesnt seem to supply but its a double edged sward because invention allows a player to diversify and change tactics with the market.

T2 BPO's are necessary but only on a select few items with such low trade volume that an inventor wont waste the time for the profit or lack thereof

It's absurd that there are still T2 BPOs in the game that allow a minority to completely circumvent a major mechanism of the game. Any "important" corner of the market that is dominated by production from BPOs would be quickly filled by invention production if there was a profit incentive to do so which there would be if the playing field were leveled.

It's not that inventors don't want to produce certain items, it's that there is no profit incentive to produce certain items against a competitor who obviously has a major advantage.

BPO owners are forced to produce from said BPOs.

Inventors can diversify.

Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ?

Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ...

Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today

Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion.

is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil?
is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one?
is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort?

T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally ****** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive.

imo buff the ****** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at.

is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil?
is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one?
is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort?

T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally ****** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive.

imo buff the ****** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at.

I do not think BPO's are unfair. There are some things to be considered looking at the everlasting whining about the unfairnes or removal in the T2 BPO's vs BPC's/invention discussion.

BPO's can be used only to occupy one slot (being it set to one month contstant build), if the owner wants to utilize more production slots for T2 he either needs to invent himself, or have more T2 BPO's. ...


... And to be honest, if for some reason an industrialist in in possession of 10 BPO's (or 11 when fully trained advanced mass production). I trhink he deserves to have this advantage. He is probably not going to mess with prices too much and cut his own margin as he needs to somehow earn back his investment.

Shut up, please. Nothing of what you said made any relevence to gifted items.

Most T2 were given out by CCP to select players in ''lottery'' that was rigged. Yes some of the lottery were fair and others not. Alongside this CCP also handed out T2 BPO as drops or just plain straight into players assets. THIS is F'ing unfair.

The BPO's should be removed from game and the player owning it reinbursd the lottery research points that BPO cost. EVE is rigged it's not an even game.

I do hope Sony Reps catch wind of stuff like this and know exactly the type of company CCP is.

Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.

thats not unfair?

The problem is me. The bpo can be researched to the point invention is more expensive than the cost of the BPO so u cant compete in a market that the final product is more expensive that your cost.



Never heard of alts ?
You can have 3 characters per acount.
With the money you earn with that single BPO you can buy more characters / mantain more acounts = more free production slots / more free invention. BPO T2 is free money.

So u can NEVER compete with a BPO owner. He with less effort makes more money.

Ways to solve it?

- Removal
- Make BPO - BPCs with x runs
- Make BPO T2 default me -25 / -50 so they are more expensive than invention.
- Reintroduce BPO T2 (lottery / invention chance etc)

EvA

the reason why absolutions and sleps arnt not produced via invention isnt to do with a t2 bpo. its to do with why the hell would you use one, when a t3 is better and a tier 3 bc does the same damage at half the cost. if more people used teh ship, demand woudl be higher and more would be produced via invention, its very simple issue of supply and demand, they suck in there current incarnation and demand is low. if you look at other examples from the twitter feed, you can see this in action

i own an abso, but id much rather have fun in my oracle.

The real reason its they are selling those ship below invention cost.

1- they are crazy and whant to loose money.

2- they use t2 BPO

As stats from @CCP_Diagoras show. Number 2 is the cause.

there are a number of reasons, the producers are idiots, they mine minerials, they are free. be it t1 or t2 mins, they are free or have lowered cost due to the fact they mine them.. thats the biggest reason why stuff is cheaper. if you actually bothered to check, yourll find t2 items with no bpo that sell below the cost of the parts.

dont assume anything.

Yes the figures released for T2BPO just make me rage even further think there are people out there making 80% of the market at zero effort all from knowing a CCP dev when the game was even more corrupt than it is now. 80% of the market for all those years to fund an allince that fights in a bullcrap war that CCP decides who wins by the massive isk dumps they give through T2BPO.

Crappy ships and mods will not be manufactures as they have no value.
BPO are not causing this.

im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?

More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.

Proof?

If data isnt wrong u better sell the components.

http://www.eve-market-guide.com/t2item.php?id=22448

EvA

[quote=Eva Volkova][quote=Gizan]im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?

think you missed the part where he had moons produce the mins to make it. was that your intention?

I've known at least 2 people in RL that stopped playing EVE as a direct result of T2 BPO's. Why would they want to play a game where some chosen player gets to mis an entire step of gameplay? T2 BPO is the reason I would never touch manufacture with a barge pole.

Crappy ships and mods will be manufactured if someone buys them above cost.

The are selling above BPO cost below Invention cost.

EvA

If inventors didn't undercut BPO owners and sell at 0 margin, that would NOT be a problem
Also, given that T2 BPO are such a gold mine, why did most orignal owners sell theirs?

The point is.
- If BPO T2 are great then introduce them again.
- If BPO are a problem remove them from game.

EvA

the answers are.
- The lottery was a mistake, invention is better and is working as intended
- There not a problem

how can the lottery be a mistake and not the bpo ?
Invention isnt working as intended because a small % of players using BPO t2 sell a big% of the market.
And with invention you cant compete with them.
Telling me that with invention you can make money is the same that telling me that killing rats gives you money and what?

We need a system where invention can compete in every market.

If you seem BPO T2 are good lets find a way to reintroduce them.

- Make a system so everyone has a chance to get BPO T2
- Or change BPO T2 so they are more expensive than invention (still give an advantage of no spending time doing invention)

In a game we need to look what best for the system not what is best for us.

And in no way having free card its good for anyone.

They are removing R&D agents in the same way so will be a great time to think about removing/changing/reintroducing BPO T2



EvE

It isnt about envy. Its about the rules we must play with. We all play and love this game i and i would love to play in a system where everyone plays with the same rules.

CPP decided BPO T2 wasnt a good system and decide to remove it from the game.

The problem of the BPO is that they give an advantage to the ones that uses them and that they dont get destroyed with it use.

you have two systems to produce T2 items (the same final product).

The old system that CPP didnt like and the new one (invention).

If you whant to have two systems you should (in a game enviroment) balance them.

One without any work producing more expensive items (BPO T2).

And another with more work and less expensive item (Invention).

And then reintroduce BPO T2 and let people decide.

EvA

1: CCP had seeded the number of BPO's that was to be seeded. That is why they stopped.
2: No BPO's is ever used up, live with it.
3: Invention is for the masses, and it only requires some small work to do and ISK.
4: T2 BPO requires you to get hold of items, then make items and sell, pretty much like any other activity.
5: Reintroduce T2 BPO's?? that will ruin invention for ever, making it totally BUST for the masses.


in short, you must be in Test.

1. they stop because it wasnt a good system.
3. So in short BPO T2 are good for the elite and not for the masses ?
4. invention too + you have to do the invention so they allways are more expensive and cant compete.
5. Not if we change how BPO T2 work. If BPO are more expensive to produce but able to mass produce and Invention less expensive no mass produce. You have a choice.

this is more of the same. I have mi toy and dont whant anyone to broke it i want mi "i win button for industry".

Lets move all to invention o lets build a system that can work in unison wich each other. And after that re introduce BPO T2.

If the BPO are good lets all have them if not remove them or change them. I dont like good for me not good for anyone else.

EvA

T2 BPO's was seeded in a fixed number.
it was not stopped because it was BAD, it stopped because they were done seeding.

Also, T2 BPO's are for heavy industrial investors... (not you) and veterans that never 'cashed in'

When they introduced invention cpp said they wasnt happy how the lottery was handled.

why?
why no a new system?
why scared of change?
What is better with this sistem?
What advantages have this sistem instead of the one i have talked about?

EvA

Many moons ago when T2 Bpo was the only way of producing T2 items, cartels formed. They offer ridiculous amounts of isk to buy up all the BPO of the same item and controlled the prices. Peasants then had to pay 20 mil ISK for a cargo expander and 300 mil ISK for a HAC. Back then peasants whined for a good reason because cartels could control both volume and price

CCP wanted to keep T2 manufacturing distinct from T1, but didn't like to continue with the lottery because these cartels would just keep buying up the BPO and continue plundering the peasants. They wanted a system where anyone could participate and more importantly scalable as EVE population grew. Thus, Invention was born

The populace of New Eden rejoiced as Invention was introduced and quickly smashed the Cartel's grip on the T2 market. Now T2 items was in abundance and everyone could afford them. A noob no longer had to save for days just to buy a 20mil ISK for a cap recharger, mind you this was back in the days when LP stores didn't offer as much Faction mods

As you can see Invention is working as intended and it was not a typo error for invented BPC to carry -4 ME/-4 PE by default.

Fast forward several years later, EVE gets new players who joins and conveniently forgets that EVE is a game set in a persistent universe. Then more ignorant players much like yourself who can't figure out the difference between their butt hole and their mouths come out on the forums and start whining about how unfair things are while totally oblivious to how much harder the game was or how much improvements the game has seen.

So, please get off your privileged a$$ next time and read up on EVE's rich history before whining on the forums for unnecessary changes which would accomplish nothing except to satisfy your bitter jealousy.

you reply to mi post but you dont answerd mi questions.
i just think invention should given better items than BPO T2 because its more time consuming. More time= better results.

So please troll all you whant but eve has changed it allways is changing and thats good.

Ravens where number one but missiles change and get a nerf.
Vagabons pilgrims a nanocanes where a must but a nerf came.
titans are seem very powerfull and they have receive nerf after nerf.

Whats so important of BPO T2 that cant be changed in any way.

Ok lets keep it as they are but buff invention. whats the problem you have buffing invention?

- they should be a diference between using a 0me /0pe BPO and a full researched one.
- why not have a chance of having better BPC T2?. Better than a BPO T2 full researched. Its only a BPC and will run out but will give you something new and will be fun (like getting an officer loot in pve).

Lets make industri a better place. Lets static and with more change.

EvA

Actually all your questions have been answered, bottomline, there is nothing wrong with T2 Bpos and invention works as it should. The only problem there is, is your perception of the Bpos and jealousy.

Proof?

If data isnt wrong u better sell the components.

http://www.eve-market-guide.com/t2item.php?id=22448

EvA

Agreed.

It doesn't mean that I can't wish for little things like:

- T1 BPC ME/PE having an effect on the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE (such as Sqrt(T1 BPC ME)-5 = T2 BPC ME).

- Asking for the decryptors to be rebalanced.

- Lower datacore prices through increased supply.

- Smarter S&I dialog windows which remember the last action that you did to result in less clicking when setting up a bunch of identical industry jobs.

- T1 BPC ME/PE having an effect on the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE (such as Sqrt(T1 BPC ME)-5 = T2 BPC ME).

More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.

Statements like this really emphasize the lack of common sense in the "T2 BPO's are unfair" crowd.

Seriously,

If you stop for two seconds and actually think about it. If an owner of a T2 BPO wants to make money of it, what is their best option?

The owner of T2BPO can get over 100Billion isk in retail value alone and that is before even producing a single item. For sure some of the BPO's are not worth that but many are.

And owners of Officer-fitted Titans can get over 100Bil isk in retail value alone too and thats before using it to carebear anomalies and blapping people. So whats your point? Anything you can't afford should be removed?

And owners of Officer-fitted Titans can get over 100Bil isk in retail value alone too and thats before using it to carebear anomalies and blapping people. So whats your point? Anything you can't afford should be removed?

5. Not if we change how BPO T2 work. If BPO are more expensive to produce but able to mass produce and Invention less expensive no mass produce. You have a choice.

that's exactly the way it works ... but the other way arround:

• T2 BPO == less expensive but no mass production
• T2 BPC == more expensive but mass production

every player can decide for their own if he/she want to invest a few bil ISK to get a BPO to produce a few items a month at lower cost to make profit after a few years
or if he/she want to invent BPCs to produce more items but at higher cost and make profit after a the first month

if there are items where invention isn't profitable .... invent somthing else ?

the same rules for everyone in the sandbox

best regards

Leemi Sobo

T2BPO is living proof that success in EVE online has more to do with who you know than what you do. As long as certain players/corps keep getting gifted bonus items such as T2BPO CCP will never be able to claim this game a true sand box.

If a T2 BPO's are a licence to print money. It cuts out a decent cost in the production of T2 goods and turns it into 100% pure profit. While a T2 BPO is technically open to the free market, no player can procure one threw means that currently exist in the game.

The Value of a T2 BPC is defined by the players ability's to produce them threw research, this value has real context since time and materials went to making them. A T2BPO piggybacks this value in a manner that no player can reproduce threw current game mechanics.

The only fair way to fix this situation is to give a value to the current T2BPO's and then add a means to procure a T2BPO at the same cost. This "Fix" would invalidate the invention system over time but it should be noted that the invention system still stands as a cheaper way to produce a T2 BPC, if the procurement of a T2 BPO was threw invention it would still keep the system valid.

Ultimately the biggest issue I feel most industrialists have with T2BPO's is the fact that we cant procure them threw the game and that they can have 0.1% waste while invention prints are limited to what ML's and PL's you modify them to have.


T2 BPO's are just another "ATM" CCP needs to fix in the game.

More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.

T2 BPO's were a balance issue before the introduction of the invention system. There is no way to undo the lottery, most prints are not owned by those who won them from such. What you guys are really proposing is taking stuff from those players who have invested in these assets. At this point, everyone has the same opportunity to acquire these prints and they are not a balance issue. But all this has been said before. It does nothing to illuminate WHY you are complaining about a perfectly balanced game mechanic...

What this really comes down to, is that I'm better than you. In every way. You want my stuff, because I completely invalidate your efforts in this game. You go to and fro, completing your chores and working your ass off... with a dream of one day rising above the filth of your existence to the plain on which I reside. But sooner or later, you come to the realization that you are no closer to my reality than when you started. In fact, you are losing ground by the minute - falling ever deeper into the depths of poverty. It is at this moment, that you give up on your own advancement and begin trying to tear me down. You think "Surely this is not a failure or shortcoming on my end, but some unfair advantage held by those with whom I cannot compete." So you cry. You cry about T2 BPO's and high skill points and powerful ships and suicide gank mechanics. It's pathetic.

The simple fact of the matter is this: you are crying, while I am winning. You work for me, and no amount of whining or nerfing will change that. Get over it.

Not can, but have to. BPO owners have no other option. And their profits are limited.

10-50% waste

on a side note, my own wall of text on the subject.

I do believe T2 BPO invention requires introduction, making the cost for running invention both costly and accessible to every one (making sure all the research stations in eve are not qued up for the next 4 years) and the current private stations do not become extinct due to wars.

Research needs a total revamp from the ground up, I believe the current T1 market shows us that the community is profiting.
I.E. make research BPO related and cut the BPC waste down to zero or 10% standard for small items and as is for large slower moving items.

We also want to take special care not to hurt the BPC market to much as far to many people are relent and situated comfortably on their repetitive work, which is calming from every day life, if hurt has to happen, atleast give them something else to look forward to.

as for the people who Hoard T2 BPO's it would indeed be unfair to just take it from them "Tough, Umad?" , I believe buying the BPO's from them at current market prices would be fair as they would not lose anything, only make them give up their advantage.

Another major problem we have, are moons, Well they are not really a problem, I think its great how they work now, but we should look into giving miners the ability to "Craft" these moon minerals, like research but in a way where its only meant to cap moon minerals from growing to far in price once the new T2 changes take effect

"Keep CCP in firm control" or "Market regulation"
as we all know, when investors are given the chance to save their own ass and let millions die, exactly that will happen every single time without MARKET REGULATION, just a touch up here and there once in a while when you start seeing people complain about the same thing a bit to often, bty thank you for listening to us CCP.


As for the poster who says we work for him, I believe his logic is not to insult us, but to show us, in the form of art, he is reflecting on the position and feelings of the 99%

If you want us to be able to create BPOs, you absolutely must have a degrading factor on them, else the market will be soon full of them. ME decreasing one level per day for example, or some other form of research upgrades. Maybe even degration on every research relevant stats of a BPO. Research progress and what was yesterday state of the art, is outdated tomorrow.

I like the idea, but you have to be careful about implementing changes to the market.

It's a problem of attriction.
T2 BPOs are incoherent and don't inherently bring value over invention, but removing them creates bigger problems than they create themselves.
In other worlds, the accelleration is not enough to overcome the friction.

That sounds very interesting . . .

What if we created a new type of BPC through invention.

It turns a BPO into a max run BPC that can have ME/PE research done on it.

So I could take a Vexor BPO, add datacores, and Invent (with chance of failure of course) a Special 15 Run Ishtar BPC that I could then perform ME/PE research on.

These BPCs would always have a higher cost than T2 BPOs (Material Cost + effort to run the jobs), but it would cut down on the advantages of T2 BPOs (especially in the ship markets).

-FM

This, for the record, would not actually positively affect the profit margin of inventing Ishtars.

You would cut down the "BPO advantage..." and you would also **** your own bottom line.

Otherwise known as "cutting off your nose to spite your face". It's almost like nobody ever even looks at what they think they are "competing" against. You want Ishtars? Fine.

IIRC, there were only 10 of every ship BPO seeded. Let's assume that they are all still alive and kicking and being actively produced from under optimal conditions. With perfect skills, a +4% time implant, using a normal manu line (advanced ship manu lines have an additional wastage factor that cuts into margin) and 34 PE, it takes 1 day, 3.5 hours to produce an Ishtar from a BPO. So in a 720 hour month, a BPO can produce 26 ishtars.

So if they're all still in use, under those ideal conditions, and all of the ishtars are being delivered to market, that's 260 ishtars a month, maximum resulting from BPOs.

The average daily volume of Ishtars sold in Jita for the last year is 43.6, which means that under the absolute best conditions possible, every BPO that ever was can supply about 6 days worth of volume per month for this particular ship. When you add in the other hubs, it is far less than that.

Now at this point, anyone with the most basic grasp of arithmetic would say, "Hmm. I guess I really don't have to compete against those guys because they will run out of units long before the market demand is satisfied," and go about their business and make a shitton of isk doing so.

BPO whiners don't do that, though. Instead they fuss over the "BPO Advantage" and come up with "smart" ideas like the above that would actually cut into their own profits.

Increasing ME/PE from invention would simply mean that the price would drop to suit, but it's even worse than that: Since limitless Ishtars can now be produced at 15ME, THAT will be where the new price point will be set.

That means every inventor will HAVE to do that research to be profitable/competitive. By "allowing" ME/PE research to be done on invented BPCs, you are, in fact, FORCING ME/PE research to be done on the BPCs.

Know what that means?

That means you just came up with an idea that will completely **** your own isk-per-slothour by exponentially increasing the amount of lab time required for every Ishtar made.


I swear, no group needs more protection from itself than S&I.

BPO owners are forced to produce from said BPOs.

Inventors can diversify.

I swear, no group needs more protection from itself than S&I.

If you want to moan about how the T2 BPOs were handled & the terrible wrongs of them it should be taken to the Crime & Punishment forum. But the Crime & Punishment forum would require that the complaints have relevance and it's well past the point of relevance and into the territory of "feeling sorry for yourself". How dare life not be fair?

If you want to complain about how T2 BPOs shouldn't be in the game it should be taken to the Suggestions & Ideas forum. But the Suggestions & Idea forum doesn't bother feeling sorry for itself and it's residents would descend upon such a thread like so many angry magpies upon an ill-tempered cat. You can hiss and spit all you'd like, but they'll still drive you off.

I'm horribly disappointed that so much good sarcasm was so deeply buried in a forum post that should already be dead.

All "T2 BPO" posts in the Science & Industry forum are troll feed as far as I'm concerned. The most important thing these posts do is continue to provide a place for an old wound to fester & putrefy. They don't belong in the Science & Industry forum.

Gentlemen, please,

The forum topic reads:
"the importance of T2 BPOs"

This is not a topic about "moaning" or terrible things, its simply here to asses, what is the current importance of T2 BPO's in the current state of affairs within EvE online and New Eden.

The question still stands, what is the importance
the answer should lead to more questions and constructive comments and criticism.

The question of whether T2 BPOs are "unfair" is a wholly irrelevant one, as they're SUPPOSED to grant an advantage.

If T2BPO were a ship it would have 100% resistance, be able to deal dread DPS while tracking frigs and having the speed of an interceptor.

If T2BPO were a ship it would have 100% resistance, be able to deal dread DPS while tracking frigs and having the speed of an interceptor.

T2 BPOs have a crappy RoI, but they can handle a larger investment budget with ever so slightly less hassle than T1 BPOs (cap/supercap BPOs are more tricky).
For the exact same total initial ISK investment amount, T2 BPOs are one of the worst moneymakers in the game !

All T2 BPOs are really good for is low returns with medium workload on huge investments, for people with way too much idle ISK.

If T2BPO were a ship it would have 100% resistance, be able to deal dread DPS while tracking frigs and having the speed of an interceptor.

''OK for sure but it can only target one ship at a time while inventors ships can target several.'' -Typical T2BPO supporter comment if BPO's were ships.

This is a good comparison to let PVP players know how over powered and in need of removal T2BPO's are and the defence T2BPO supporters give about invention being able to run multiple manufacturing runs at once. T2BPO needs removed/nerfed worse than the Dramiel ever did.

Good luck explaining that to someone who doesn't understand what opportunity cost is.

Yet again people who talk about ROI on T2BPO are idiots the ROI is instant T2BPO cost the owners nothing but RP and are worth billions of ISK. The ROI on T2BPO is instant and astronomical in account for the retaliative cost of RP.

Yet again people who talk about ROI on T2BPO are idiots the ROI is instant T2BPO cost the owners nothing but RP and are worth billions of ISK. The ROI on T2BPO is instant and astronomical in account for the retaliative cost of RP.

Yet again people who talk about ROI on T2BPO are idiots the ROI is instant T2BPO cost the owners nothing but RP and are worth billions of ISK. The ROI on T2BPO is instant and astronomical in account for the retaliative cost of RP.

Yet again people who talk about ROI on T2BPO are idiots the ROI is instant T2BPO cost the owners nothing but RP and are worth billions of ISK. The ROI on T2BPO is instant and astronomical in account for the retaliative cost of RP.

Yet again people who talk about ROI on T2BPO are idiots the ROI is instant T2BPO cost the owners nothing but RP and are worth billions of ISK. The ROI on T2BPO is instant and astronomical in account for the retaliative cost of RP.

I am fairly certain, that Brewlar Kuvakei doesnt even read any of these posts:p This is his Crusade against his worst Enemy, the T2 BPO. All he does is spamming a more or less meaningless post after a certain ammount of time, not as a reaction of previous posts.

Honestly I read his half way, and read yours to the end but your argument is still invalid I.E. has nothing to do with "The importance"

Your argument is truly invalid as you are incapable of seeing all sides of the coin, perhaps pretend to look for public sake.

Honestly I read his half way, and read yours to the end but your argument is still invalid I.E. has nothing to do with "The importance"

Your argument is truly invalid as you are incapable of seeing all sides of the coin, perhaps pretend to look for public sake.

Without BPO then T2 would be much more expensive.

Not realy, plus CCP has plans on lowering invention cost

do they? i thought it was just pushing datacores into the hands of FW'ers

that means datacore prices will drop quite abit which means invention cost will drop which means invention will be cheaper.

so far Datacores only did cost RP. now they will also cost isk (or LP). They will have a better availability than now obviously. They might drop in price, but I wouldn`t count on it.

Increase manufacturing time of T2 BPO's that have more than 50% of production.

Problem solved.

That is possibly the best suggestion I have heard. It's not needed but its actually pretty good.

T2 BPO's only dominate the market when the volume sold of the item is low, the rest are dominated by invention. And if you look at ships that have no T2 BPO quite a few of them are unprofitable and that cant be blamed on T2 BPO's.

Hopefully if the changes to moon-goo that has been suggested by Soundwave could really change up the whole T2 market.

But what does that do to benefit invention?

All that would do is **** all over the most useless of the T2 BPOs. Even if you removed T2 BPOs in their entirety, I still wouldn't want to invent, say, 50mm reinforced steel plate IIs, so how would this "pretty good" (by which I mean "arbitrary and naively implemented") suggestion actually benefit the inventor?

This will be the third time I have presented this challenge. So far, nobody has even attempted to furnish an answer:

Please name one item that I am currently locked out of as an inventor that would become an attractive option in the absence of T2 BPOs.

Prices would change to invention prices which would mean that inventing any item would be profitable cause it would be the only way to do the items.

And atm you are locked out on all tech 2 items that have tech 2 bpos in the game. No point inventing if you are trying to make profit. The bpo owners can undercut you anytime and you will be forced to sell on loss if you want to sell the items

Well now

Here goes.

Lets say we will build and sell and imaginery tech 2 shuttle that has a material need of 2000 tritanium with perfect ME level. and also lets imagine that trit costs 1 isks.

The lottery was kind for us and we got an BPO for our selfs and we used few million isks to research it to me10 and cause wanted a copy we started invention and got a me-4 BPC after 4 tries so I consumed 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores.

Oh yeah I also need some skills.

Took me 15 days to train the production effiency to 5 and ship engineering to 3 so I can make the shuttle. Also I had to train mechanical engineering to 5, ship engineering to 5 and encryptions to 5 which too me another 45 days.

On to the building. I have friend in caldary navy so the station service will be free.

Using the BPO
I had to get 2018 units of tritanium and wait few hours and the ship was done.
This totals to: 2018 units of trit

Using invention
I had to start invention, get 3000 units of tritanium and few other equipment and a lab 4 mechanical engineering datacores and 4 ship engineerin datacores.
This totals to: 3000 units of trit, 4 mech datacores and 4 ship datacores


Now I was wondering... I could sell the ship with 2600 isks. That a around 28% of profit.
Then I realized that I need to sell the other thing also and I can't go lower than 3000 isks cause it cost way more than 3000 to make the thing.
So I this clear enough for you what I'm trying to say and what this is all about.
Tough everything effects everything and demand verus supply effects the prices BUT the BPO owner can ALWAYS undercut the inventors. And what ever you say will no change that. These are the game mechanics. This is how it works atm.

how suprising, brewlar wakes up right after somebody made post that is bad enough that it could come from brewlar himself

your shuttle theory is funny but has nothing to do with the whole thing. it completly ignores Volume (wich makes it really bad already) and that somebody who is aiming for max profits would never sell for less than he could get.

Ignore that it's a game, you just showed us that you have some serious logical barriers about business that you have to master before you can even understand why your shuttle theory is that bad.

So this comes down to:
i'm butthurt someone is making profit of ships and damn you all, its not me so i'm mad!
(sounds about right?)

Haulie Berry interceptors are common ships that invention where invention is raped by the OP T2BPO. I all ready said this too you.

Well I've been reading these posts so much already that I don't even know where I type my answers :P
Tough adding volume would just show tht the person owning the bpo could make more and get more profit while the inventor would just get amount of profit. Or do you wanna think this on the CCP scale?

Inventors vs BPO owners. I have a faint memory about a chart that showed that 35% (or something like that) is made from bpos. Tough I'm not totaly sure about it. And I'm too tired to go find it.

Plus the shuttle thing more about mechanics. Thats how it realy works. how you sell the stuff is a completely different thing I do know that. I would also personaly go for max profit. Calculate how much the invention would cost minimum and set the price on that at least and use bpos to make the stuff.

Tough adding volume would just show tht the person owning the bpo could make more and get more profit while the inventor would just get amount of profit. Or do you wanna think this on the CCP scale?

Inventors vs BPO owners. I have a faint memory about a chart that showed that 35% (or something like that) is made from bpos. Tough I'm not totaly sure about it. And I'm too tired to go find it.

Thats how it realy works. ]

-¿Pretty sure these bpo haters have never done inventions... heck.. even never produced anything"

Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then?

Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again.

Tough i would loose quite abit in that :(

Ok so by your calculations inventers do the most of the work and according to ccp also so lets remove t2 bpos then?

Problem solved and no one needs to talk about this anymore ever again.

Tough i would loose quite abit in that :(

Do you not understand that BPOs have asset value?

How is it possible for any one person to own this much of the world's share of stupidity? Save some for someone else, yeesh.

Could you be any more obvious about your agenda?

You presented an argument. I blew your argument out of the water with incontrovertible math, and your response is, "Well, even though I'm completely wrong, let's remove them anyway just because."

This makes it obvious that you don't care about the wellfare of the system or whether or not invention works. You've probably never even plugged in an invention job in your life. You're clearly just jealous that other people have things.

Hey this is about talking the matter. It realy doesn't matter what you say or how you present your case If someone from CCP wants to remove the bpos or do something about this. Do you REALY THINK they are going to ask you anything

There realy are no wrong or right answers to this. There are your views and someone elses views and the ideas that comes out from them. And how much we talk about numbers numbers it realy wont matter anything in the end if CCP say something and ofter that we will just loose isks and so.

I would be fine with either having more T2 originals or removing T2 BPOs.

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/64763/2012/04/what-is-this-i-dont-even-spiderman.jpg





The last bastion of the idiot who has finally realized how stupid he is: "Well, err, uhh... look, man, everyone has an opinion, right? There's no right or wrong answer, duuuude."

Stupid and spineless. Some people have all the luck.

I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs

I would be fine with either having more T2 originals in the game or making copies researchable or removing T2 BPOs. Any of those. Don't care which.

And no I'm not the guy who ever you are trying to make me be

[
- Are T2 bpo overpowered ? No. It's huge investment and high-end items for the high-end industrialist only. Don't try to get one if you don't have at least 100 Bil to invest.

It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.

It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.

It's not a huge investment if you got given one by CCP for nothing or 'Won' a BPO in a 'Lottery'.

Zero people who were given BPOs by a CCP employee still have them today, so I'm not sure why you keep clinging to that assertion like it's a security blanket. I will assume it's for lack of anything relevant to say.

Also, in point of fact, it WAS a huge investment (of time) to win them in the lottery.

Still waiting to hear which items would become attractive to invent if it weren't for BPOs. As previously noted, interceptors would not become attractive options, so please try again.

Are you ever gona drop this realy reeaaaaly dumb argument? When people don`t aggree with you, it`s not necesarry because you didnt spam the same crap not often enough.

a lottery is 100% random aka 100% fair. If you say CCP did cheat in these lotteries, bring evidences already or dont bring that topic.

A lottery is not 100% random if the details of it's prize structure and ticket numbers are known. I'm not going to be your own private eve wiki or google but I suggest you go review the lottery to find out how people were able to rapidly increasce their 'chance' of winning a T2bpo, primarly being mailed ticket numbers by guess who a ccp employee. By Ticket numbers I mean how many were in each lottery and how many BPO's were on offer.

Anyone who says T2BPO were introduced fairly or in an legit fashion is detached from reality, remove them.

Anyone who says T2BPO were introduced fairly or in an legit fashion is detached from reality, remove them.

Well now

Here goes.

Lets say we will build and sell and imaginery tech 2 shuttle that has a material need of 2000 tritanium with perfect ME level. and also lets imagine that trit costs 1 isks.

"Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." -Publilus Syrus

For the third time interceptors and yes you forgot to mention the special events where CCP gave out T2BPO's ie the mining ones.

For the third time interceptors and yes you forgot to mention the special events where CCP gave out T2BPO's ie the mining ones.