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opati Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2012.04.04 21:21:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras some of the quotes: Quote: Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention. Quote: 89.77% of 1400mm II, 82.00% of Tachyon II, 87.34% of 425mm Rail II, 74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II produced in March were from invention. Quote: 66.13% of Ishtars and 63.53% of Zealots produced in March 2012 were produced via invention. #tweetfleet Quote: 27.60% of Curses and 22.16% of Pilgrims produced in March 2012 were from invention. #tweetfleet since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 95	Posted - 2012.04.04 21:43:00 - [2] - Quote It's probably due to the demand. The demand of command ships is very low because the ships are not in a good place right now so most of the demand is satisfied by BPO holders and inventors cannot compete. Sleipnirs are a lot more popular than Abso's so there will be a lot more trade. If I remember right there is roughly 30-40 sleips traded in Jita per day compared to 10-20 Abso's. But with modules like T2 guns, the demand is huge because they can be used by a lot more people, notably T2 guns are always used on T1 ships so inventors have people to sell to. In before people argue that T2 BPOs are unfair wah wah wah.
Caractacus Dio Inception Innovations 10	Posted - 2012.04.04 22:06:00 - [3] - Quote BPO owners are forced to produce from said BPOs. Inventors can diversify. If margins are terrible on Absolutions but brilliant on T2 1400s. I know which the inventor will go for, and unfortunately the Absolution BPO holder has no choice. This may explain why some items are mostly produced via BPOs, which saturate the market due to low demand so why would inventors even bother.
Kenshin Tzestu Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.04 22:09:00 - [4] - Quote More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.
Kalipoli State War Academy Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.04.04 23:15:00 - [5] - Quote That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do. T2 BPO owners are at an advantage no matter what when it comes to manufacturing one or a few items but the limited supply and costs of T2 BPOS inhibits the individual T2 BPO holders ability to be change production as the market shifts. What i get from this is that T2 BPO's are needed in game to fill demand that invention doesnt seem to supply but its a double edged sward because invention allows a player to diversify and change tactics with the market. T2 BPO's are necessary but only on a select few items with such low trade volume that an inventor wont waste the time for the profit or lack thereof
Kalipoli State War Academy Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.04.04 23:19:00 - [6] - Quote It would seem that the only people who complain about T2 BPO's being unfair are those who do not have them. The only thing CCP could do to please these people is to do another lottery or install a game mechanism that would allow for hard to achieve or low chance at success method of seeding new T2 BPO's to the market. But this would be pointless as their intention may be to just wait till all the T2 BPO's are blown up and gradually eliminated leaving us only with invention and no chance at a T2 BPO as they would no longer exist in game.
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries 55	Posted - 2012.04.05 00:37:00 - [7] - Quote opati wrote: CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras some of the quotes: Quote: Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention. Quote: 66.13% of Ishtars ... were produced via invention. #tweetfleet since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though Lets see, the Absolution and Sleipnirs are worthless so that explains why so few people invent them. T2 BPOs can meet and/or exceed demand for that item. Ishtars however are a mini Nyx that can be used in highsec. They are high in demand and without a doubt one of the best level 4 mission running ships available. Any Gallente skilled pilot can run a level 4 mission in half the time with an Ishtar than using a battleship. They have a drone bonus, huge drone bay, one hell of a tank, plus the speed of a cruiser. In the hands of even a ******** pilot they can blow through missions.
Revolution Rising Gentlemen of Better Ilk 308	Posted - 2012.04.05 01:48:00 - [8] - Quote opati wrote: CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras some of the quotes: Quote: Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention. Quote: 89.77% of 1400mm II, 82.00% of Tachyon II, 87.34% of 425mm Rail II, 74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II produced in March were from invention. Quote: 66.13% of Ishtars and 63.53% of Zealots produced in March 2012 were produced via invention. #tweetfleet Quote: 27.60% of Curses and 22.16% of Pilgrims produced in March 2012 were from invention. #tweetfleet since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though Yeah a lot of the OTHER disparity here is - were they invented by alliances that hold decent full reaction t2 component moons ?? There are 2 actual ways of bringing the production prices down for these ships. ONE is t2 BPO's the other is to fully react the t2 components. Right now about 80% of the Jump Freighter price for example is technetium. CSM7 Skype Leak
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 825	Posted - 2012.04.05 02:33:00 - [9] - Quote I'll disagree and say that T2 BPOs are not necessary for the market to function. Invention could easily pickup the slack. And as mentioned many times before, the presence of T2 BPOs only impacts the low-demand, low-volume markets where the BPO owner can produce enough to meet demand and squeeze the inventors out (no datacore/decryptor costs, no copy slot costs, less materials). Now, if datacores take a price jump, as expected - then you can expect the cries to return for the removal of T2 BPOs. Do I think T2 BPOs should be removed? Eh... yes / no / not really. I think if CCP would let the T1 BPC's ME/PE level have an effect on the resulting T2 BPC, that would change things a bit, and if CCP were to make datacores cheaper, that would help as well. (My pet formula for T2 BPC ME is "-5 + Sqrt(T1 BPC ME) + decryptor_adjustment".)
Ten Bulls Sons of Olsagard 81	Posted - 2012.04.05 02:36:00 - [10] - Quote Increase manufacturing time of T2 BPO's that have more than 50% of production. Problem solved.

Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 585	Posted - 2012.04.05 03:05:00 - [11] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: I'll disagree and say that T2 BPOs are not necessary for the market to function. Invention could easily pickup the slack. And as mentioned many times before, the presence of T2 BPOs only impacts the low-demand, low-volume markets where the BPO owner can produce enough to meet demand and squeeze the inventors out (no datacore/decryptor costs, no copy slot costs, less materials). I don't think anybody argues that invention couldn't pick up the slack, rather the price would have to rise for there to be an incentive to pick up the slack. As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to.
Frederick Sanger GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 44	Posted - 2012.04.05 03:28:00 - [12] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to. It's absurd that there are still T2 BPOs in the game that allow a minority to completely circumvent a major mechanism of the game. Any "important" corner of the market that is dominated by production from BPOs would be quickly filled by invention production if there was a profit incentive to do so which there would be if the playing field were leveled. It's not that inventors don't want to produce certain items, it's that there is no profit incentive to produce certain items against a competitor who obviously has a major advantage.
Samuel Tuffstein Tuffstein Investments 7	Posted - 2012.04.05 07:16:00 - [13] - Quote Interesting stats and quiet funny, even with a fully researched Absolution BPO the profits on an Absolution are minimalistic, infact a Absolution BPO holder would be better of making Hurricanes right now. However, to measure the impact of T2 BPOs on the market it would be alot more interesting to know how many T2 BPOs are actualy out there.
Carniflex StarHunt Broken Toys 17	Posted - 2012.04.05 08:59:00 - [14] - Quote Kalipoli wrote: That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do. That is incorrect. Producing from a T2 BPO does not exclude one from doing invention. Its not that you can do one OR another. If you have T2 BPO you can do T2 BPO production AND invention. If you do not have T2 BPO you can do ONLY invention.
Bad Bobby Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 57	Posted - 2012.04.05 11:22:00 - [15] - Quote If T2 BPOs were removed/nerfed/turned into turnips then the size of the Absolution market would still be tiny and pretty much pointless to invent for. The answer to any market where T2 BPOs dominate is to make the item in question less terrible.
Space Wanderer Ruatha Holding 1	Posted - 2012.04.05 13:20:00 - [16] - Quote Bad Bobby wrote: If T2 BPOs were removed/nerfed/turned into turnips then the size of the Absolution market would still be tiny and pretty much pointless to invent for. The answer to any market where T2 BPOs dominate is to make the item in question less terrible. Somebody seems in need to learn about supply and demand.... As tiny as the demand is, unless it isn't 0 if the supply drops to 0 the prices of that stuff will rise, and suddenly it would be worth inventing for it. Things wouldn't change dramatically if those T2 BPO were removed, i guess. The average prices would just raise enough to cover for invention costs and a tiny profit. Possibly, given the low transcation volumes, the market would show some volatility so that the prices would stay low until inventors can see a profit. Should they go lower, inventors would shift focus and the prices would spike, which would lure inventors back to it, and so on....
Ragnacrok Dark Matter Research 0	Posted - 2012.04.05 13:46:00 - [17] - Quote This "T2 Bpo producers can't switch production easy" is very funny. Do you actually mean they use their T2 bpo on their 10 production lines ? We can, for sure, trust them for not competing on the lucrative "invention" modules or ships with their remaining production lines, they already got an isk printing machine after all... I understand how badly they must be suffering when they own op to 85% of a market and make it completely pointless for any other producer to make inventions.
Salo Aldeland Luma Operations 9	Posted - 2012.04.05 14:36:00 - [18] - Quote The reason T2 products that are mainly made from BPO's have a low price isn't because the privileged oligarchs are depressing the price to stick it to plucky proletariat inventors. Their prices are low because nobody wants to buy them. You see somebody getting three quarters of a pie and demand your fair share. Your tiny slice is not enough to make you very full, but they're pigging out. That is clearly unjust! What I see is a really tiny pie, forget about it, and go grab a slice of the biggest, richest damn pastry I can find. Inventing command ships isn't pointless because BPO holders can crush the competition with their magic money faucets. It's pointless because hardly anybody can use them, hardly anybody that can use them ever does, and hardly any of them that get used need replacing.
Plyn Random Jedi Industries KRYSIS. 49	Posted - 2012.04.05 14:36:00 - [19] - Quote Kalipoli wrote: That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do. T2 BPO owners are at an advantage no matter what when it comes to manufacturing one or a few items but the limited supply and costs of T2 BPOS inhibits the individual T2 BPO holders ability to be change production as the market shifts. What i get from this is that T2 BPO's are needed in game to fill demand that invention doesnt seem to supply but its a double edged sward because invention allows a player to diversify and change tactics with the market. T2 BPO's are necessary but only on a select few items with such low trade volume that an inventor wont waste the time for the profit or lack thereof This is a fallacy. If the T2 BPOs didn't exist and supply dropped, the items they were previously producing would suddenly become more attractive to inventors and some people would move over to fill the gap and their pockets. The only items that would never be invented are the items that people literally don't use. Generally it's because those items are flawed in their stats. T2 armor plates, for instance, really should be better than meta 4, but they aren't. In fact they provide the same bonus but are a lot harder to fit. Devs should look into buffing T2 items where this is the case, IMHO, but that's a discussion for another thread. Come2Nullsec
Devan Reale Border Zone Combat 1121 Ventures 3	Posted - 2012.04.05 17:50:00 - [20] - Quote Frederick Sanger wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to. It's absurd that there are still T2 BPOs in the game that allow a minority to completely circumvent a major mechanism of the game. Any "important" corner of the market that is dominated by production from BPOs would be quickly filled by invention production if there was a profit incentive to do so which there would be if the playing field were leveled. It's not that inventors don't want to produce certain items, it's that there is no profit incentive to produce certain items against a competitor who obviously has a major advantage. So do the game a favor: buy a bunch of PLEX, buy as many BPOs as you can, and trash them. Problem solved (from your perspective).

Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 22	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:21:00 - [21] - Quote Lets face it T2 BPO was a huge mistake and everyday they remain in game is proof that EVE is unfair and that players/corps that are CCP pets will continue to be given unfair advantages to keep them ahead in game. CCP will never shed it's corrupt small game developer image untill it cleans up it's gameplay and stops dishing out prizes to friends of the company that give them massive advantages in game. Remove T2 BPO make eve an even playing field. I've known at least 2 people in RL that stopped playing EVE as a direct result of T2 BPO's. Why would they want to play a game where some chosen player gets to mis an entire step of gameplay? T2 BPO is the reason I would never touch manufacture with a barge pole.
Xuixien Stoic Assembly Lines Trade Federation Alliance 13	Posted - 2012.04.05 19:38:00 - [22] - Quote Caractacus Dio wrote: BPO owners are forced to produce from said BPOs. Inventors can diversify. Owing a T2 BPO locks you character from performing invention? I did not know this. Stoic Assembly Lines is looking for new players interested in mining and running missions. Inquire within.
Ting Mei Pulsar Inc. Goonswarm Federation 14	Posted - 2012.04.05 20:02:00 - [23] - Quote Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ? Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ... Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion.
Smoking Blunts ZC Industries Dark Stripes 217	Posted - 2012.04.05 20:35:00 - [24] - Quote Ting Mei wrote: Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ? Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ... Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion. is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil? is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one? is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort? T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally **** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive. imo buff the **** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
Brewlar Kuvakei Adeptio Gloriae 22	Posted - 2012.04.05 22:40:00 - [25] - Quote Smoking Blunts wrote: Ting Mei wrote: Why not re-introduce T2 BPO in the game, and change the Invention principe ? Invention could be for example be use to ME and PE instead of just waiting time ... Invention makes research on a BPO, with a % of luck as today Don't know ... but this T2 BPO situation is really unfair in my opinion. is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil? is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one? is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort? T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally **** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive. imo buff the **** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at. Shut up, please. Nothing of what you said made any relevence to gifted items. Most T2 were given out by CCP to select players in ''lottery'' that was rigged. Yes some of the lottery were fair and others not. Alongside this CCP also handed out T2 BPO as drops or just plain straight into players assets. THIS is F'ing unfair. The BPO's should be removed from game and the player owning it reinbursd the lottery research points that BPO cost. EVE is rigged it's not an even game. I do hope Sony Reps catch wind of stuff like this and know exactly the type of company CCP is.
Acorn FB Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects 5	Posted - 2012.04.05 23:25:00 - [26] - Quote I think a several things are important to consider about the T2 BPOs 1. They are most definitely "unfair" they are roughly equivalent to owning an industrial plant in the real world where you are grandfathered into being able to pollute freely and use prison labor, but you can not expand your plant in any largely significant way (rapid diminishing returns from ME / PE). You can also sell your plant and its rights to some other party and it retains its rights. 2. They are currently ridiculously overpriced compared to their true economic value, they tend to be valued multiple years on the total profit of the BPO - not the lower of the delta between the BPC vs. BPO profit or actual profit and use no time value of money in their calculation (do not forget a loan in Eve could run 3% or higher per month, meaning a 3% per month discount rate these things would never break even). 3. Because of point 2 BPOs are owned by those who highly value their "collector's value" and the constant return is nice perk or the owners are idiots who do not realize they could sell the darn things and reinvest the profits into many more profitable routes. 4. BPOs add a layer of low cost suppliers where they exist and severally distort the market where they can supply a large percentage of the total demand at the resulting equilibrium price point. BPO builder are capable of building at a lower price than is profitable for a BPC user and BPOs used all they down to their breakeven point. This does have an upside of providing some T2 supply where CCP forgot to make the item in question not suck. 5. Maybe almost as unfair as the cost advantage is the BPO owners do not have to suffer carpel tunnel, unlike the inventor/BPC manufacturer. The BPO is a handful of clicks and a large pile of resources for a month long run, an invention to BPC to manufacture could be a massive amount of clicks per month and extra annoyance (data cores, ick). 6. Another problem with BPOs value are massively distorted from nerf / buffs - that 40b BPO in your assets could be cut in half because they nerfed your T2 item or buffed its competition, or just imagine the value of the large neutron blaster BPO before and after the recent buff. I have always thought that the tech 2 BPO were left in but the without ways obtain the new ones was dumb, they should figured out a way to phase them out of existence at the same time they added invention. My suggestion to remove them would be they are replace by 2 items: a non useable object that says BPO for X Tech Item (collector piece) and a special BPC with 2 years worth of runs at the BPOs current ME/PE. Just my thoughts
Frederick Sanger GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 45	Posted - 2012.04.05 23:38:00 - [27] - Quote Smoking Blunts wrote: is it unfair that someone has 150mil sp and you only have 2mil? is it unfair that someone has a state raven and you only have a navy one? is it unfair that someone has worked in game for isk to buy a t2 bpo and ccp removes all the time and effort? T2bpo's arnt unfair in todays industry landscape, there is much profit to be made from invention as long as you are not inventing t2 armour plates or other equally **** mods. if you really want a t2bpo you can buy one, like most of tehe current holders have. some are dirt cheap, some are expensive. imo buff the **** mods, make them worth building... oh and the eagle, that needs looking at. T2 BPOs circumvent an entire facet of gameplay for a minority of players at the expense of the larger community and any future new player is at a distinct disadvantage. They never should have been allowed to remain in the game the day invention was...invented.
Gizan Hounds Of War WHY so Seri0Us 20	Posted - 2012.04.06 06:13:00 - [28] - Quote waaa, waaa, waa, something happened in the game YEARS ago, that doesnt effect me but i wanna complain about it now.. GIVE SHRIKE A NEW TITAN, THEY ARENT SUPPOSED TO DIE!! Waa Waa waa, i dont have a titan, remove titans from the game. waa waa waa, i dont have a state raven, remove them from the game. waa waa waa, i dont have a Freki, Freki's were gifted by ccp, remove them from the game!! waa waa waa i dont have a Mimir, Mimir's were gifted by ccp, remove them from the game!! ECT ECT ECT Ps i dont have a t2 bpo, and dont have plans to buy/own a t2 bpo.
Thalysia The Ahool Guard 0	Posted - 2012.04.06 07:00:00 - [29] - Quote I do not think BPO's are unfair. There are some things to be considered looking at the everlasting whining about the unfairnes or removal in the T2 BPO's vs BPC's/invention discussion. BPO's can be used only to occupy one slot (being it set to one month contstant build), if the owner wants to utilize more production slots for T2 he either needs to invent himself, or have more T2 BPO's. I do not know the exact numbers, but let's say the bpo builds a product twice as fast as a bpc, good so the owner can get twice as much products on one slot. Big deal. If the owner of the bpo would like to setup ship production for one month he needs components. There are 2 options: building components, or buying them. Building components takes up slottime and thus making the bpo owner produce less because he needs to utilize the other slots for the manufacturing of components. If he would buy the components of the market, he loses margin, and thus an advantage of owning the BPO and being able to set it up to produce one month long. If he does setup for a whole month, he risks that prices of moonmaterials went down at such an amount, that the prices of the endproduct follow that decline.......again cutting in his her margin. All and all reasons why I don't think they have a very big advantage over inventors. As for the BPO owner being bound to building one product, and inventors being able to follow the market. True, and also true that a BPO owner can invent to follow the market too. But by doing so, the (so called) unfairness/advantage the BPO owner has disappears like snow in the desert. And to be honest, if for some reason an industrialist in in possession of 10 BPO's (or 11 when fully trained advanced mass production). I trhink he deserves to have this advantage. He is probably not going to mess with prices too much and cut his own margin as he needs to somehow earn back his investment. tl;dr : T2 BPO owners have advantages, so do BPC inventors, and I don't think they should be removed. By the way I invent BPC's and I do not own any T2 BPO's.
Eva Volkova nXo Intrepid Crossing 0	Posted - 2012.04.06 10:33:00 - [30] - Quote Thalysia wrote: I do not think BPO's are unfair. There are some things to be considered looking at the everlasting whining about the unfairnes or removal in the T2 BPO's vs BPC's/invention discussion. Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention. thats not unfair? The problem is me. The bpo can be researched to the point invention is more expensive than the cost of the BPO so u cant compete in a market that the final product is more expensive that your cost. Thalysia wrote: BPO's can be used only to occupy one slot (being it set to one month contstant build), if the owner wants to utilize more production slots for T2 he either needs to invent himself, or have more T2 BPO's. ... ... And to be honest, if for some reason an industrialist in in possession of 10 BPO's (or 11 when fully trained advanced mass production). I trhink he deserves to have this advantage. He is probably not going to mess with prices too much and cut his own margin as he needs to somehow earn back his investment. Never heard of alts ? You can have 3 characters per acount. With the money you earn with that single BPO you can buy more characters / mantain more acounts = more free production slots / more free invention. BPO T2 is free money. So u can NEVER compete with a BPO owner. He with less effort makes more money. Ways to solve it? - Removal - Make BPO - BPCs with x runs - Make BPO T2 default me -25 / -50 so they are more expensive than invention. EvA



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