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Natasha Xi
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:03:00 -
[1]
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted! 
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Squably
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:04:00 -
[2]
switch to HACS
Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
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Natasha Xi
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:09:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Squably
switch to HACS
Or this! 
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:09:00 -
[4]
With the exception of #9 all of the things you've suggested involve actually having to change a cookie-cutter Raven build and is therefore invalid.
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:09:00 -
[5]
What about if you already used a painter?
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Durzel
With the exception of #9 all of the things you've suggested involve actually having to change a cookie-cutter Raven build and is therefore invalid.
Cookie-cutter Ravens have lost their edge and cannot even cut cake. Think of steps #1–#8 as sharpeners.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:21:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Durzel on 12/11/2008 14:20:57
Preaching to the choir Tippia 
Sadly it's easier and quicker for the 1.03902+e16 Raven/CNR cruise users to just whine on the forums about it rather than actually train up target painting.
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Hlidskjalf
Novus Aevum Transport and Industries
Novus Aevum
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:27:00 -
[8]
Simply put - a Raven should have a target painter regardless of skills, patches etc. The ability to add another 20-80 damage to a target per missile, while still maintaining a solid tank, is like having another BCU on there. Yeah, everyone flies one different, and you may disagree, but I have found a TP to be most useful.
My fit for reference: (CNR - with a Raven, the same, except perhaps NOS or another drone link aug in the highs)
High: 7 cruise, 1 drone link
Mid: XLSB, 4 hardeners, 1 target painter
Low: 3 BCU, 2 PDU
Rig: 3 SCMC I Rigs
- - - - - - - - -
What could possibly make me walk into your gate camp to get to low sec, unless my Retriever has a doomsday device on it...
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Pnuka
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:31:00 -
[9]
T2 Target Painter is worse than best named in fitting and activation cost.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Durzel
Preaching to the choir Tippia
Sadly it's easier and quicker for the 1.03902+e16 Raven/CNR cruise users to just whine on the forums about it rather than actually train up target painting.
I suppose… That would explain why they get so confused by the Golem's bonuses and come of thinking it's worse than its T1 counterparts. 
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Aarin Wrath
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:52:00 -
[11]
Funny, I have been using target painters on my BS gunboats for about a year or more now.
Why haven't people been screaming about how this is a nice buff to Minmitar?
(target painter bonuses on thier ships!)
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:57:00 -
[12]
Decent advice with 1 correction.
Use a PWNAGE instead of a T2 target painter as they are far easier to fit.
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Bezariel
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:00:00 -
[13]
As the man said, use painters.
Or better still, get a Golem and use a pair of bonused painters - with reasonable skills you will double target sig (after stacking)
Painters work to great ranges and draw aggro too!
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Maxpie
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:03:00 -
[14]
I've always used TP2 in my missioning Typhoon, now life is even better.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:14:00 -
[15]
I love this PWNAGE pun ^^
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Bellawulf
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:16:00 -
[16]
Thanks, these are good suggestions. (Yes, I'm a noob here).
What is HACS, by the way?
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ramzahn
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
Thank you. That might be a light in the darkness. We'll see.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:24:00 -
[18]
DEATH TO THE COOKIE-CUTTER RAVEN!
ALL HAIL THE TARGET PAINTING RAVEN!
And all our problems were solved...
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:29:00 -
[19]
As an alternate use for your alt, put him/her in a Bellicose (minnie cruiser).... You'll not have to sacrifice your Raven tank then.
7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per skill level.....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:31:00 -
[20]
Can i get some medslots to fit Painters?
Not everyone with missiles flies a caldari ship....
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hyveres
Decent advice with 1 correction.
Use a PWNAGE instead of a T2 target painter as they are far easier to fit.
Forget that, Fit PWNIES instead!
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Dravius Luxor
Minmatar
Phoibe Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:58:00 -
[22]
Being Minmatar, I rarely fly without a painter.
But when I fly Caldari, I normally fit a painter anyway...
...and, um, when I fly Gallente I tend to fit a painter as well...
I've forgotten what my point is, but I'm sure someone will figure it out.
Anyway, once again, congrats on a nice patch!
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:01:00 -
[23]
Get a Bellicose alt and you're good.
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bellawulf
Thanks, these are good suggestions. (Yes, I'm a noob here).
What is HACS, by the way?
These are HACs
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Sileam
Caldari
NosferaTech
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
Hello, another EFT general!
Thank you very much for your enlightened advices :)
Now teach me where do I put my SHIELD TANK on the RAVEN where I have 1 TARGET PAINTER, 2 (a couple) WEBBERS and 1 AFTERBURNER to catch my targets into web range 
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sileam
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
Hello, another EFT general!
Thank you very much for your enlightened advices :)
Now teach me where do I put my SHIELD TANK on the RAVEN where I have 1 TARGET PAINTER, 2 (a couple) WEBBERS and 1 AFTERBURNER to catch my targets into web range
Ooops, logic beat the EFT General. He needs to adapt his argument if we're gonna accept useless missiles .
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sileam
Hello, another EFT general!
Thank you very much for your enlightened advices :)
Now teach me where do I put my SHIELD TANK on the RAVEN where I have 1 TARGET PAINTER, 2 (a couple) WEBBERS and 1 AFTERBURNER to catch my targets into web range
Good thing he didn't tell you to do that, isn't it?
He told you to fit one TP, or have a couple of webbers in your group. No mention was made about fitting an afterburner.
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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:09:00 -
[28]
Why are there so many people like the OP that just don't realize.
SIGNATURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!!
The effects of signature now are exactly the same as they have always been.
Its the fact explosion velocity got nerfed by a factor of 10. Even shooting cruise at a BS rat your damage is reduced by about 15-25% compared to pre-patch.
Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down |
RoCkEt X
Caldari
The Order of Chivalry
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:10:00 -
[29]
increasing sig radius DOES help with exp velocity, its hard to explain with only text but trust me it does, this is good advice, but EVERY SINGLE POINT needs you to fit a TP, nuking ur tank.
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Sombike
Caldari
Enterprise Estonia
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:12:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Sombike on 12/11/2008 19:14:07
19:06:14 Combat Group of Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile hit Corpum Shadow Sage for 3492 damage.
I beg to differ, seems to be a boost to my missioning cnr actually ... No painters, no webs was used, the target was 70km off from me :)Probably had activated an mwd, but thats not my problem, is it?
Aight guys, just shot a Battleship ...
19:10:41 Combat Group of Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile hit Corpus Oracle for 4295 damage.
Im quessing something went wrong with the formula there?
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RoCkEt X
Caldari
The Order of Chivalry
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:15:00 -
[31]
let me guess, smuggler interception or unauthorized military presence. the chances are this target wasnt moving when you shot it. EXPLOSION VELOCITY is the problem, if your target is not moving then its irrelavent, so gtfo. and also we're not talking about JUST missions.
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Villoire
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:15:00 -
[32]
Sadly the OP has failed to win over the carebear community, not because his ideas are bad (quite the opposite), but because he hasn't come up with a solution that allows them to fit their ship exaclty the same way as before AND have their missiles do exaclty the same damage as before. The answer has however been closer than you think, all rejoice as the true answer to pre-patch missile-loving is revealed!!! You know it makes sense We will take care of you.
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Lady Katrana
Wild Jokers
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:21:00 -
[33]
just like everywhere else in the world when a situation is shifted a lot of people will feel lost and cry foul. then the inovaters will find a way to excel under the new conditions. eventually the masses will pick up on what the invoaters have done and will do it themselves. what was once inovation will become the new norms until the situation is shifted again... lather rinse repeat.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:28:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sileam
Now teach me where do I put my SHIELD TANK on the RAVEN where I have 1 TARGET PAINTER, 2 (a couple) WEBBERS and 1 AFTERBURNER to catch my targets into web range
You're obviously a very reasonable person who is eager to hear criticism of your arguments, so I'll mention that the OP actually wrote that you could EITHER fit a target painter OR two webbers. The part about the afterburner was an additional note, not intended to be combined with the earlier suggestions.
Of course, having to choose between various equally viable yet distinct alternatives is absurd and contrary to the spirit of the game. Guardian of the One True Way of Eve, I salute you!
HERE IS SOME MORE NONSENSE IN CAPS.
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:38:00 -
[35]
So... right after the patch I jumped into my cookie cutter CNR. Rogue Drones... result. NP... stuff died I lived.
Then I got in my nanoSac and had a buddy shoot me in his Cerb. Result... near fatal experience.
Tested again in my no LSE having shield tanked Phantasm with an AB... result I win!
Dear Caldari specialized cookie cutter torp raven flying pilots and NanoHac specialized pilots. Try really hard to stop whining that your FOTM ships got nerfed and try ADAPTING!
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Dee Caffari
Big S Triangle
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:40:00 -
[36]
So OP, your suggestion is that using a target painter (useful range ~80km iirc) and a webber (useful range ~10km last I checked) will make cruise missiles (range ~200km) work again?
How about just accepting that CCP have, either intentionally or not, made Cruise missiles very much a second rate weapon. However one they could fix by making tracking computers/enhancers also affect explosion velocity (and missile velocity or flight time) or by releasing analogous mods specifically for missiles.
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:54:00 -
[37]
Edited by: My Sister on 12/11/2008 19:54:49
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
ok - you suggest that im going to have to tank more efficiently but i have to drop a mod to fit a painter - its either going to be a boost amp or a hardner that goes. that sound so much more efficient allready. add that to the fact that we wil be needing a webber as well because Sig radius while it will help a bit is not going to do much in many situations because with the current mechanics speed can still be a very good way to avoid missiles all together (see exp velocity decrease)
if i were to drop my boost amp - as you seem to have i will lose 37.5% bonus boost - sound efficient so far? dropping a hardner wont make much difference as long as im killing guristas. ill lose about 10% resists from each of the damage types if i fit a faction invuln in place of a second set of specifics. please note that faction boosters cost 320mil and will probably cost a whole lot more since faction missions have the number of rats in em nerfed (less tags per mission will inflate thier price) for those who are at entry level raven stage and have not worked up enough lp/isk to get the faction fittings losing a single tank slot is even more dire
now to the muppets who parrot "just use some drones" think for a moment what its like to have a scraming frig on you thats so far tanked all 7 of your faction cruises for a whole load and in the time you take to reload it regens 75%. you pop out your drones thinking this'll get em, and voila' you have pocket agro - your light tissue paper drones dissapear in a mist of fragments as 20 rats in other groups gank them hardcore and then turn thier baleful eyes on you - who is still scrammed droneless and repeating only one word over and over "F*ck"... to compound your problems you have a tank that can run for 3 mins max - but you are 2/3 into that by now allready and now you have the whole pocket on you -
what will YOU do with your last 45 seconds?
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: My Sister
Edited by: My Sister on 12/11/2008 19:54:49
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
ok - you suggest that im going to have to tank more efficiently but i have to drop a mod to fit a painter - its either going to be a boost amp or a hardner that goes. that sound so much more efficient allready. add that to the fact that we wil be needing a webber as well because Sig radius while it will help a bit is not going to do much in many situations because with the current mechanics speed can still be a very good way to avoid missiles all together (see exp velocity decrease)
if i were to drop my boost amp - as you seem to have i will lose 37.5% bonus boost - sound efficient so far? dropping a hardner wont make much difference as long as im killing guristas. ill lose about 10% resists from each of the damage types if i fit a faction invuln in place of a second set of specifics. please note that faction boosters cost 320mil and will probably cost a whole lot more since faction missions have the number of rats in em nerfed (less tags per mission will inflate thier price) for those who are at entry level raven stage and have not worked up enough lp/isk to get the faction fittings losing a single tank slot is even more dire
now to the muppets who parrot "just use some drones" think for a moment what its like to have a scraming frig on you thats so far tanked all 7 of your faction cruises for a whole load and in the time you take to reload it regens 75%. you pop out your drones thinking this'll get em, and voila' you have pocket agro - your light tissue paper drones dissapear in a mist of fragments as 20 rats in other groups gank them hardcore and then turn thier baleful eyes on you - who is still scrammed droneless and repeating only one word over and over "F*ck"... to compound your problems you have a tank that can run for 3 mins max - but you are 2/3 into that by now allready and now you have the whole pocket on you -
what will YOU do with your last 45 seconds?
wonder if perhaps level 4 missions were never really meant to be run solo.
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Mikhale Romanov
Black Hats Delta
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:09:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
Does this include a 2nd toon to remote rep since most CNR/raven pilots will drop their boost amp (seems like the logical choice of a mid to drop /shrug).~ /sarcasam off
ZOMG Communism! |
Minsc
Gallente
A.W.M
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.11.12 20:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dee Caffari
So OP, your suggestion is that using a target painter (useful range ~80km iirc) and a webber (useful range ~10km last I checked) will make cruise missiles (range ~200km) work again?
How about just accepting that CCP have, either intentionally or not, made Cruise missiles very much a second rate weapon. However one they could fix by making tracking computers/enhancers also affect explosion velocity (and missile velocity or flight time) or by releasing analogous mods specifically for missiles.
Target Painter OR webber. Say it with me this time OR, as in either OR, as in one OR the other but not both, as in mutually exclusive, as in the opposite of AND. 
Originally by: Sharkbait
please for the love of god read the dam stickies
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Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:13:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Kayosoni on 12/11/2008 20:14:18
ITT: many clueless people, or perhaps low SP. I remember back in 2003 when I flew scorps with 1.3m sp.
Painters help a lot more than you all think, and since damage is based off a sig radius:velocity formula, increasing sig radius even as the ship goes faster still allows you to do more damage, sometimes even doing "over-damage" now (increasing the enemy ship sig radius higher than your missiles explosion radius will still yield higher damage as the enemy ship goes a certain speed.)
-----------------------------------
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Malcanis
wonder if perhaps level 4 missions were never really meant to be run solo.
except that there are plenty of other ships that CAN solo lvl4's and have not been affected by Missile balancing - well maybe even buffed. see if i had all these lovely mid slots that i didnt need for a tank i might think of putting an AB on to further mitigate dmg from incoming missiles.
and lvl5's are the unimaginative effort CCP phoned in to get people to fleet up for missions. not lvl 4's.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:38:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sileam
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
Captain! They've adapted!
Hello, another EFT general!
Thank you very much for your enlightened advices :)
Now teach me where do I put my SHIELD TANK on the RAVEN where I have 1 TARGET PAINTER, 2 (a couple) WEBBERS and 1 AFTERBURNER to catch my targets into web range
a clever comment, fully supported, AB, TP, dual webbers and armor tank :P
wait, we have web drones! will drakes be superior for lvl 4s now?
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Jhered Stern
Caldari
x-- Ultima Ratio --x
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:41:00 -
[44]
Good post Natasha.
Jhered Out!
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zombeee
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:44:00 -
[45]
Originally by: My Sister
Edited by: My Sister on 12/11/2008 19:54:49
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
ok - you suggest that im going to have to tank more efficiently [...]
Wrong. I stopped reading
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Artemis Rose
Varion Galactic
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Last Wolf
SIGNATURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!!
The effects of signature now are exactly the same as they have always been.
Its the fact explosion velocity got nerfed by a factor of 10. Even shooting cruise at a BS rat your damage is reduced by about 15-25% compared to pre-patch.
This!
Yes! Target painters do help, but that is not where you are losing damage!
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Cire XIII
Caldari
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:47:00 -
[47]
Explosion Velocites of common Earth-made explosives
"TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,940 m/s compared to 1,680 m/s for the
detonation of pentane in air,"
Now explain to me why Cruise missiles in the future explode with a velocity of 500m/s, heavies 750m/s, etc. I guess in this case realism would be game-breaking... But then didn't ships go over 6.9km/s last week?
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Saint |
Oh Hamburgers
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:50:00 -
[48]
What about armor tanked ravens in pvp now?
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Dee Caffari
Big S Triangle
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Minsc
Target Painter OR webber. Say it with me this time OR, as in either OR, as in one OR the other but not both, as in mutually exclusive, as in the opposite of AND.
Your point is? the useful range of a target painter is still under half the range of cruise missiles (and most other long range BS setups)
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:01:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sombike
Edited by: Sombike on 12/11/2008 19:14:07
19:06:14 Combat Group of Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile hit Corpum Shadow Sage for 3492 damage.
I beg to differ, seems to be a boost to my missioning cnr actually ... No painters, no webs was used, the target was 70km off from me :)Probably had activated an mwd, but thats not my problem, is it?
Aight guys, just shot a Battleship ...
19:10:41 Combat Group of Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile hit Corpus Oracle for 4295 damage.
Im quessing something went wrong with the formula there?
You kind of proved the fail right there. Thx for the details.
------------------------
Have you fed your slaves recently?
-BRB Rens |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:03:00 -
[51]
Originally by: RoCkEt X
increasing sig radius DOES help with exp velocity, its hard to explain with only text but trust me it does, this is good advice, but EVERY SINGLE POINT needs you to fit a TP, nuking ur tank.
Increasing sig radius helps remove the penalty to damage for sig radius. you can still outrun the explosion velocity.
i have most of what was suggested to train for a TP trained i fitted one to my raven. the damage did not noticablely change on missions. why? cause the BS was moving at 300m/s plus the cruisers at 500m/s plus and frigates between 500-3k m/s if my explosion velocity is 100 m/s and the ship i am hitting is moving at 500m/s i suffer a damage reduction because its moving faster than the explosion of my missle.
A TP gives a ship a high sig radius so its easier to hit. it dont cancel the explosion velocity. all your doing is making your ships BIGGER to targeting. thus your removing the penalty used for smaller sig radius.
IT in no way helps the fact that my drake( base) can out run even the fastest missles explosion radius except for maybe making the target a bit bigger so its got a bit more ass to get out of the way of the explosion radius.
I dont care what skills you have or how many TPS you use.. your not solving the problem your only making it less noticable by enhancing something else( in this case target painting/sig radius
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:09:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Cire XIII
Explosion Velocites of common Earth-made explosives
"TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,940 m/s compared to 1,680 m/s for the
detonation of pentane in air,"
Now explain to me why Cruise missiles in the future explode with a velocity of 500m/s, heavies 750m/s, etc. I guess in this case realism would be game-breaking... But then didn't ships go over 6.9km/s last week?
That's in air. AKA with resistance. In space this would be significantly higher. Infact in space there is a reverse factor.
------------------------
Have you fed your slaves recently?
-BRB Rens |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:20:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Cire XIII
Explosion Velocites of common Earth-made explosives
"TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,940 m/s compared to 1,680 m/s for the
detonation of pentane in air,"
Now explain to me why Cruise missiles in the future explode with a velocity of 500m/s, heavies 750m/s, etc. I guess in this case realism would be game-breaking... But then didn't ships go over 6.9km/s last week?
That's in air. AKA with resistance. In space this would be significantly higher. Infact in space there is a reverse factor.
Yeah, they should just make the explosion velocity display as km/s and good. No more whining that it's unrealistic.
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:03:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Malcanis
wonder if perhaps level 4 missions were never really meant to be run solo.
Sup?! I'm a LVL4-AFK Domi-boat. Who's you?
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:04:00 -
[55]
so umm.. how is this sapost to affect my mid slot intesive shield tank?
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:06:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Cire XIII
Explosion Velocites of common Earth-made explosives
"TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,940 m/s compared to 1,680 m/s for the
detonation of pentane in air,"
Now explain to me why Cruise missiles in the future explode with a velocity of 500m/s, heavies 750m/s, etc. I guess in this case realism would be game-breaking... But then didn't ships go over 6.9km/s last week?
That's in air. AKA with resistance. In space this would be significantly higher. Infact in space there is a reverse factor.
Yeah, they should just make the explosion velocity display as km/s and good. No more whining that it's unrealistic.
actually the explosion velocity of many compounds( mostly solids) is over 6 km/sec. Since the races in eve are far more advanced than ours, they should have missles with compounds that give a large explosion velocity in space.
I could nit pick game mechanics all day as compared to current physic laws. But thats not really the argument at all.
the argument is this:
CCP stated that they want to give players more viable options so we quit using cookie cutters( they havent played very many MMOS as balancing one thing always unbalances another thus nerfing and enhancing is a never ending process.) They have instead of making speed tanking less appealing made it easier and more appealing. They have also wiped out a whole weapon class of "viable options" and at least 1 role ship( stealth bombers). they have nerfed a complete race of ships down to make most ships of caldari unappealing to play.
CCP wanted to balance but instead they unbalanced the game even worse. speed tanking is easier, the entire class of missles is useless and the entire race of caldari ships arent much better than cannon fodder.
They have, as result, provided fewer "viable options" to players. They have taken away income of many many players. not just mission runners but ratters as well.
Now many for this change say just do something else. but let me ask you this ... where do you exactly think that cash comes from you use on the market? how do you think the game creates isk?from bounties and missions and other rewards by npcs at some point every isk in your wallet was created by a rat or mission agent or similar npc for a reward. it is how the game introduces isk into the economy.
Now say their is a 50% reduction in ratter/mission runner income. thats 50% less money being pumped into the economy of eve.
Now add in the fact money given to npcs( this happens alot in manufacturering/researching in high sec) is taken out of the market. then add the fact New players will join and old ones will quit( and leave their cash in their wallet which is no longer circulating).
There is no longer a cash flow being generated to keep up with the market. Not enough money is coming into the game to support the non ratters/mission runners?
why? because ratting/mission running is less appealing now. their are easier ways to make money. And when all of us whiners quit running our missions and killing our rats
all of you who use other methods to make money are not only going to hae to share with us but your going to get less income from them because we no longer generate isk in the enconomy.
In short, dont bite the hand that feeds your wallet
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Sidus Isaacs
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:06:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your quick and easy guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
1. Train "Target Painting" to L4
2. Train "Signature Focusing" to L3 or 4 (5% bonus to targets sig radius)
3. Train "Long Range Targeting" to L3 or 4 ( not really necessary but gives max range on cruise/target painting if you have the flight time, etc)
4. Train "Electronic Warfare" to L2, in order to...
5. Train "Frequency Modulation" to L3 or L4 (10% falloff bonus for TP's)
6. Train "Long Distance Jamming" to L3 or L4 (10% optimal range for TP's)
7. Fit a T2 Target Painter to your ship
8. Activate it on target
9. Pwn it with your cruises
Et Voila! Problem solved.
The alternative is to gimp the target with a couple of webbers - or have a gang mate to it whilst you tank and shoot dps. The above 9 steps will help solo Raven/CNR pilots in missions BUT the drawback is you lose 1 mid slot so you'll have to tank more efficiently.
Remember that this "nerf" also works both ways - if you too keep on the move they still have to overcome your "speed tank" (lolz at Raven speedtank) so the loss of a mid slot isn't too much of a problem.
Captain! They've adapted!
Fit TP and loose my shiled tank? (I am thinking PvP where I already have a warp jammer and webber adn AB/MWD)
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Berious
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:13:00 -
[58]
OMG change my fitting slightly? No thank you sir, think I'll just keep whining until CCP caves - it's the Caldari way.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:30:00 -
[59]
"More effectively" isn't enough. Not for torps anyway. And it's not about "adjust setup slightly". Did AE just now, and it does really seem like Torps are dead. Not because they can't finish a mission, that means absolutely nothing. I could probably do it in my Ishkur even, if I wanted to spend hour after hour on it.
No, because efficiency is virtually cut in half, meaning what was the King of the Hill, the ultimate tool for about half of the missions pre-patch, is now worthless rubbish for all of them. Some BS took as much as 10 volleys, when before the same BS took a maximum of 5. Two or three painters help a little, but so little it's insignificant. It's not "a little worse off", it's gone from top to bottom in one fell swoop of the nerfbat.
If current stats remain, and no other new changes are implemented, I will probably not fly another Raven variant again, because I have many other options that are much, much better for any conceivable job. Good thing I already got rid of my T2 range rigged Golem pre-patch, otherwise I'd be ****ed off. Now I'm just disappointed.
Also, I've never flown a Raven without a painter, and if I had used Cruises, I would have had rigor rigs on the ship even with the old system. The "fixes" people spew out are nothing new, and were good ideas before the patch as well, so they're not "fixes" at all. And have you people actually used webber drones? They're pathetic, and they also cut into dps.
I already had Large Hybrid 5 and Large Energy 5, now I just have to get Amarr BS 5. Then I'll be proficient in three races ships. For missions I just have to deduct which is better for Angels, Domi or Chrony. Or wait a while, hope CCP realizes they made a mistake, added a 0 somewhere they shouldn't have, and modify the changes.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:32:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Cire XIII
Explosion Velocites of common Earth-made explosives
"TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,940 m/s compared to 1,680 m/s for the
detonation of pentane in air,"
Now explain to me why Cruise missiles in the future explode with a velocity of 500m/s, heavies 750m/s, etc. I guess in this case realism would be game-breaking... But then didn't ships go over 6.9km/s last week?
lol might break the game for everyone else.. but would make me happy lol
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Renee Alexis
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:34:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your long and anti-newb guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
Essentially, new Caldari players to the game get hit pretty hard. For the first of many months of training, they have even more skills to train in order to be even remotely effective and have "fun" at the game as the rest of the folks do. Not something I haven't seen before, back when they updated EVE's skill systems to require EW skills to work the EW modules. More time sink for CCP = more money for them.
_____________________________________
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Blastil
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Renee Alexis
Originally by: Natasha Xi
So there's a lot of raving about missiles, speed tanks, etc. Here's your long and anti-newb guide to make life easier on yourself once more.
Essentially, new Caldari players to the game get hit pretty hard. For the first of many months of training, they have even more skills to train in order to be even remotely effective and have "fun" at the game as the rest of the folks do. Not something I haven't seen before, back when they updated EVE's skill systems to require EW skills to work the EW modules. More time sink for CCP = more money for them.
You mean like the 1 year training time to even make blasters worthwhile to fit in any galente ship? QFT
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Renee Alexis
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:01:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Renee Alexis on 13/11/2008 01:03:27
Edited by: Renee Alexis on 13/11/2008 01:01:29
Originally by: Blastil
You mean like the 1 year training time to even make blasters worthwhile to fit in any galente ship? QFT
And right there you have your answer as to why people would rather quit, than cross-train. If they've spec'd into missile boats entirely, they haven't had any need to go through the...
Small Hybrid Turret -> Small Railgun and/or Blaster Specialization -> Medium Hybrid Turret -> Medium Railgun and/or Blaster Specialization -> etc, plus ancillary skills for gunnery.
...although it's not like blasters are better off from this patch, either. Far be it...
There are good things and bad things about EVE's skill "leveling" system, and this is one of them: when an expected gameplay outcome gets nerfed enough that the game becomes not as enjoyable for practically an entire faction, and the ANSWER to that is for them to spend more time spending real money waiting for skills to train to hop into new ships/mount new modules/weapons/etc. In any other MMO (almost, at any rate), you can simply respec or actively grind your way to skill perfection, whereas in EVE, the newbies have to sit through jokes from cruel veterans who simply say "train new skills", forgetting that they, too, were once at a place where they were only spec'd in one race.
Unless they've been subscribed long enough to have hit the "Hrm...well, I've maxed out this race, time to do another race!" thought pattern.
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Centra Spike
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:07:00 -
[64]
Raven pilots need Bellicose alts. :)
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zombeee
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:44:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Qui Shon
"More effectively" isn't enough. Not for torps anyway. And it's not about "adjust setup slightly". Did AE just now, and it does really seem like Torps are dead. Not because they can't finish a mission, that means absolutely nothing. I could probably do it in my Ishkur even, if I wanted to spend hour after hour on it.
You're whining in every single thread about missiles on the forum. It's ok now, you can go back to "taking hours" to complete a mission with a pimped Golem (riiiight).
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Sha'ara Sha'amashira
Minmatar
StoneDogS
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Posted - 2008.11.15 00:39:00 -
[66]
Missle Damage Guide: Explosion Velocity Factor Page
I point you to some facts i have gleaned from playing around with this guide.
#1 Target navigation prediction at lvl 5 would theoretically make it have a standard cruise missile have the effective explosion velocity of 103.5 which is still not bad but since someone has pointed out the apparently poor caldari players have to skill so much harder (as a minmatar i have little sympathy for such talk seeing as to be effective i need lets see, armor, shields, guns, missiles, drones, and some form of prop jamming/target painting to be effective you can get off the we need so much sp for missiles horse) however in the intrests of fairness lets say that the player would only skill to lvl 3 (which on most characters would result in approximately half to 3/4 of a day of training. Effective cruise missile explosion velocity becomes 89.7.
#2 we now take our new effective cruise missile explosion velocity and plug its closest approximation into the handy little tool and then start playing with the target velocity toggle.
#3 at around 200m/s (average bs speed with nav 5 and no speed specific modules added) we see almost no decernable change to the damage reduction equation what so ever.
#4 pushing the toggle up to 500 m/s (call it average for an AB using BS) we now have around a 7% to 8% damage reduction value.
#5 if the targets velocity is increased to 1000m/s (lets call this the perveiw of mwd using cruisers and ab using frigs the total damage reduction is...*GASP* around 30%
Lets reveiw what this means for base unresisted or boosted cruise missile damage before we factor in sig radius penalty (TV is for target velocity. Also try to keep in mind im working fast here so im not going through the PIA of trying to add on all the skills for it, plus BCUs and all that, this is primarily for illustrative perposes.)
TV 200m/s = 297 dmg
TV 500m/s = 277.5 dmg
TV 1000m/s = 210 dmg
the damage reduction factor is far more penalizing from the use of sig radius still that from explosion velocity. And as many people here have been trying to state they made no change to the mechanism, just the missiles explosion velocity.
I'm sorry to sound so snoody and stuck up but I have been finding it utterly attrocious to try and slough my way through the massive massive number of threads lately about OMG nanos got nerfed, and OMGWTFBBQ what happened to my missiles. The nerf to cruise missiles has done its job perfectly, they are now much harder to use against any vessel not speed tanking and moving in a transversal path to yourself with a significantly smaller sig radius and thus higher base speed. Also to those say this has suddenly made stealth bombers useless, i see no reduction to the range at which they can deliver damage and they get an 83.3% reduction to the factor of sig radius on cruise missiles now. So they do roughly the same damage because speed reduces the damage they do but they have the same explosion radius as a light missile. I personally see no reason to whine over the missile nerf. Bs pilots fitted with cruise launchers can now no longer WTFPWN smaller ships at distances of 100+ km but instead have to move in closer and tp if they want better dmg vs smaller ships. This isn't a nerf, its a balance to bring it in line with other weapons and tech. |
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