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Turret changes - borked or not

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Lucre	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:06:00 - [181] Originally by: Destin Tyr In point of fact, IRL (I know, I know, this isn't real life, or even close to it, but bear with me) Battleships, and nowadays carriers since battleships no longer rule the seas, did NOT travel into harms way without a full compliment of escorting cruisers and destroyers. They just didn't do it. The reason was and is for protection against aircraft (frigates), submarines, and smaller, faster ships. Perhaps it is this kind of fidelity for fleet battles that CCP is looking for with their changes. If there are any actual Naval types that post here, they will back me up this. This is true - post the invention of the torpedo. For the, ooh, 500 years before that battleships roamed the seas singly or in fleets without any need for escorts. With very occasional exceptions (e.g. Pellew's action against Droit de l'Homme) frigates were just no threat to a battleship and a battleship could kill them at will. The only role of smaller ships with the fleet was scouting, signal repeating etc. Indeed it was actually a fairly universal convention that battleships would not shoot at frigates during fleet actions unless the frigate (foolishly) shot at them first. Ironically, in Eve we've just de-invented the torpedo equivalent as far as frigates are concerned yet they're now a greater threat... :-)
Lucre	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:06:00 - [182] Originally by: Destin Tyr In point of fact, IRL (I know, I know, this isn't real life, or even close to it, but bear with me) Battleships, and nowadays carriers since battleships no longer rule the seas, did NOT travel into harms way without a full compliment of escorting cruisers and destroyers. They just didn't do it. The reason was and is for protection against aircraft (frigates), submarines, and smaller, faster ships. Perhaps it is this kind of fidelity for fleet battles that CCP is looking for with their changes. If there are any actual Naval types that post here, they will back me up this. This is true - post the invention of the torpedo. For the, ooh, 500 years before that battleships roamed the seas singly or in fleets without any need for escorts. With very occasional exceptions (e.g. Pellew's action against Droit de l'Homme) frigates were just no threat to a battleship and a battleship could kill them at will. The only role of smaller ships with the fleet was scouting, signal repeating etc. Indeed it was actually a fairly universal convention that battleships would not shoot at frigates during fleet actions unless the frigate (foolishly) shot at them first. Ironically, in Eve we've just de-invented the torpedo equivalent as far as frigates are concerned yet they're now a greater threat... :-)
Aelita	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:19:00 - [183] Turrets borked. Future missiles borked. No discusion my guns doing less and less damage over time with improving skills. No matter which ship or turrets I'm using. Even lasers doing less damage than before December 2003.
Aelita	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:19:00 - [184] Turrets borked. Future missiles borked. No discusion my guns doing less and less damage over time with improving skills. No matter which ship or turrets I'm using. Even lasers doing less damage than before December 2003.
Lucre	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:20:00 - [185] Originally by: Bobby Wilson Originally by: Proconsul Para Ooookay you I-know-it-all guns-work-as-supposed: How ho I deal with a 2-Domi, 2-Rax, 3-inty NPC spawn ??? Please tell me you're not asking how to solo them. Can't speak for Guristas in a Tempest, but this should certainly be possible for Angels in an Apoc. Kill the frigates with drones and missiles, kill the cruisers with your big guns at 20km+ (easy enough for 2 cruisers - might need to use drones if 3 or 4 cruisers and they get inside 10km), and then (and only then) kill the BS. We usually hunt in pairs of BS now, but mainly because the bigger BS (like Seraphim) are now pushing it for a solo PC. But provided you're well equipped with drones and the occasional launcher or smartbomb, you don't need mixed fleets or mixed-size weapons to hunt npcs. At least not yet... :-)
Lucre	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:20:00 - [186] Originally by: Bobby Wilson Originally by: Proconsul Para Ooookay you I-know-it-all guns-work-as-supposed: How ho I deal with a 2-Domi, 2-Rax, 3-inty NPC spawn ??? Please tell me you're not asking how to solo them. Can't speak for Guristas in a Tempest, but this should certainly be possible for Angels in an Apoc. Kill the frigates with drones and missiles, kill the cruisers with your big guns at 20km+ (easy enough for 2 cruisers - might need to use drones if 3 or 4 cruisers and they get inside 10km), and then (and only then) kill the BS. We usually hunt in pairs of BS now, but mainly because the bigger BS (like Seraphim) are now pushing it for a solo PC. But provided you're well equipped with drones and the occasional launcher or smartbomb, you don't need mixed fleets or mixed-size weapons to hunt npcs. At least not yet... :-)
Lucre	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:26:00 - [187] Originally by: Pick Me How do you deal with 2-Domi, 2-Rax, 3-inty NPC spawn ??? very simple, depending on your ship, you put 3 large for dom, 2 medium for rax and the rest in small gun Hm. Have you tried killing an NPC BS with only 3 large guns?
Lucre	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:26:00 - [188] Originally by: Pick Me How do you deal with 2-Domi, 2-Rax, 3-inty NPC spawn ??? very simple, depending on your ship, you put 3 large for dom, 2 medium for rax and the rest in small gun Hm. Have you tried killing an NPC BS with only 3 large guns?
Estios	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:58:00 - [189] Iece, that guy who couldnt hit the station was me, I was so shocked I had to check my log and yes, 11 misses in a row !! And it wasnt a Rifter, it was a Stilletto ....which has 25% tracking bonus Something is still wrong when you start getting under your optimal So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
Estios	Posted - 2004.07.09 09:58:00 - [190] Iece, that guy who couldnt hit the station was me, I was so shocked I had to check my log and yes, 11 misses in a row !! And it wasnt a Rifter, it was a Stilletto ....which has 25% tracking bonus Something is still wrong when you start getting under your optimal So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
Nafri	Posted - 2004.07.09 10:07:00 - [191] Edited by: Nafri on 09/07/2004 10:08:47 Originally by: Bobby Wilson Originally by: Proconsul Para Ooookay you I-know-it-all guns-work-as-supposed: How ho I deal with a 2-Domi, 2-Rax, 3-inty NPC spawn ??? Please tell me you're not asking how to solo them. Cuz that either means that was recently possible (and thus we who have Gurristas are again being screwed compared to Serpentis)or it's impossible and you're hoping. Right now if you hit a 2 BS, 2 cruiser spawn with enough friends (I'd want 2 friends along for a similar Gurrista spawn), what you have to do it drop the BSes, drop the cruisers and then deploy drones to drop the interceptors. BW with a reven it shouldnt be a problem, normally the BS die before thy are in their optimal range serpentis are nothing compared to guristas Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.07.09 10:07:00 - [192] Edited by: Nafri on 09/07/2004 10:08:47 Originally by: Bobby Wilson Originally by: Proconsul Para Ooookay you I-know-it-all guns-work-as-supposed: How ho I deal with a 2-Domi, 2-Rax, 3-inty NPC spawn ??? Please tell me you're not asking how to solo them. Cuz that either means that was recently possible (and thus we who have Gurristas are again being screwed compared to Serpentis)or it's impossible and you're hoping. Right now if you hit a 2 BS, 2 cruiser spawn with enough friends (I'd want 2 friends along for a similar Gurrista spawn), what you have to do it drop the BSes, drop the cruisers and then deploy drones to drop the interceptors. BW with a reven it shouldnt be a problem, normally the BS die before thy are in their optimal range serpentis are nothing compared to guristas Wanna fly with me?
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.07.09 11:44:00 - [193] wake up people it's game
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.07.09 11:44:00 - [194] wake up people it's game
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.07.09 13:07:00 - [195] Originally by: jukriamrr wake up people it's game And a game should be about having fun. When the DEVS of the game keep nerfing everything the fun dwindle away. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.07.09 13:07:00 - [196] Originally by: jukriamrr wake up people it's game And a game should be about having fun. When the DEVS of the game keep nerfing everything the fun dwindle away. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:30:00 - [197] Frigates in EVE act like Fighters. a Battleship shouldnt hit a Fighter, but it should hit a Frigate. The not so smart devs need to decide what the Frigate is, is it a Frigate or a Fighter. If its a Frigate then it shouldnt be as fast as a Fighter and if its a Fighter then it shouldnt be called a Frigate. a Interceptor is a Fighter Class ship, but in EVE its a Frigate, which is stupid since its a Fighter Class. a Frigate is much bigger then a Interceptor, and yet, a Interceptor is a Frigate... SOMETHING NEED TO BE CHANGED! "We brake for nobody"
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:30:00 - [198] Frigates in EVE act like Fighters. a Battleship shouldnt hit a Fighter, but it should hit a Frigate. The not so smart devs need to decide what the Frigate is, is it a Frigate or a Fighter. If its a Frigate then it shouldnt be as fast as a Fighter and if its a Fighter then it shouldnt be called a Frigate. a Interceptor is a Fighter Class ship, but in EVE its a Frigate, which is stupid since its a Fighter Class. a Frigate is much bigger then a Interceptor, and yet, a Interceptor is a Frigate... SOMETHING NEED TO BE CHANGED! "We brake for nobody"
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:35:00 - [199] What's in a name, seriously, who cares what it's called. Fighter, frigate, it's fast small and pretty kickass. more then enough info for me. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:35:00 - [200] What's in a name, seriously, who cares what it's called. Fighter, frigate, it's fast small and pretty kickass. more then enough info for me. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:39:00 - [201] Yea, but then if it was a Fighter then a Battleship shouldnt be able to hit it at all, but if its a Frigate then a Battleship should hit it... that is of course IF we use RL as an example... doh.. "We brake for nobody"
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:39:00 - [202] Yea, but then if it was a Fighter then a Battleship shouldnt be able to hit it at all, but if its a Frigate then a Battleship should hit it... that is of course IF we use RL as an example... doh.. "We brake for nobody"
Stevie Wonder	Posted - 2004.07.09 15:03:00 - [203] Edited by: Stevie Wonder on 09/07/2004 15:05:28 Sir, yes Sir. I was in the Army/Navy/Airforce/Starship Super Troopers so I know how EVE should work ffs its a game you nerds. I know you get a hardon for talking about 18inch cannons and broadsiding other guys but these threads are about in-GAME turret balancing and balancing the mechanics of the game. Not whether HMS Ivorbiggen could be shot down in RL by USS Smallpackage Please leave your gun and your RL anologies at the door and step slowly away from your keyboards. Now think about EVE again .....k I ain't getting on no plane fool ....ooops wait, wrong guy
Stevie Wonder	Posted - 2004.07.09 15:03:00 - [204] Edited by: Stevie Wonder on 09/07/2004 15:05:28 Sir, yes Sir. I was in the Army/Navy/Airforce/Starship Super Troopers so I know how EVE should work ffs its a game you nerds. I know you get a hardon for talking about 18inch cannons and broadsiding other guys but these threads are about in-GAME turret balancing and balancing the mechanics of the game. Not whether HMS Ivorbiggen could be shot down in RL by USS Smallpackage Please leave your gun and your RL anologies at the door and step slowly away from your keyboards. Now think about EVE again .....k I ain't getting on no plane fool ....ooops wait, wrong guy
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.07.09 16:37:00 - [205] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Yea, but then if it was a Fighter then a Battleship shouldnt be able to hit it at all, but if its a Frigate then a Battleship should hit it... that is of course IF we use RL as an example... doh.. EVE is pretty far away from RL, both in game mechanics and setting so no don't think drawing any sort of links between current day naval warfare and eve is a good idea. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.07.09 16:37:00 - [206] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Yea, but then if it was a Fighter then a Battleship shouldnt be able to hit it at all, but if its a Frigate then a Battleship should hit it... that is of course IF we use RL as an example... doh.. EVE is pretty far away from RL, both in game mechanics and setting so no don't think drawing any sort of links between current day naval warfare and eve is a good idea. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
DeFood	Posted - 2004.07.11 16:09:00 - [207] Originally by: Gariuys EVE is pretty far away from RL, both in game mechanics and setting so no don't think drawing any sort of links between current day naval warfare and eve is a good idea. I thought EVE was a pretty solid submarine simulator...
DeFood	Posted - 2004.07.11 16:09:00 - [208] Originally by: Gariuys EVE is pretty far away from RL, both in game mechanics and setting so no don't think drawing any sort of links between current day naval warfare and eve is a good idea. I thought EVE was a pretty solid submarine simulator...
LJSilver	Posted - 2004.07.11 16:33:00 - [209] Originally by: SLIM Yes, you're quite right. What I was referencing was the ability of those 18" guns to hit targets that were "right on top of" the Yamato. Those big guns couldn't do that. They couldn't aim straight down into the water. It also couldnt hit airplanes very well with those guns, because the tracking and refire were too slow. CIWS does both much better (setting aside technology differences). Slim, there is no aircraft analogy in EVE, they are all ships. In RL, aircraft operate in completely different medium from ships: air. In EVE, everything is in the same medium: viscous fluid. RL Aircraft have the tactical advantage of operating 3 dimensionally at extreme range using a superfast, small weapons platform capable of carrying weaponry with sufficient power to destroy a battleship with one hit. There is no such weapon in EVE. Before the frigate CM nerf, it was a little closer, but now there is no real similarity. If you want to fit frigates into aircraft role, that is all well and good, but it wasn't necessary to nerf turrets to achieve this. Frigates were already unhittable. IMO, the turret nerf was really a preparatory nerf to Tech I turrets so that Tech II turrests could be introduced with the same stats as the old Tech 1. (CCP did this to Tech I modules when their Tech II equivalents were rolled out). http://www.liketelevision.com/web1/classictv/longjohn/longjohn210.gif
LJSilver	Posted - 2004.07.11 16:33:00 - [210] Originally by: SLIM Yes, you're quite right. What I was referencing was the ability of those 18" guns to hit targets that were "right on top of" the Yamato. Those big guns couldn't do that. They couldn't aim straight down into the water. It also couldnt hit airplanes very well with those guns, because the tracking and refire were too slow. CIWS does both much better (setting aside technology differences). Slim, there is no aircraft analogy in EVE, they are all ships. In RL, aircraft operate in completely different medium from ships: air. In EVE, everything is in the same medium: viscous fluid. RL Aircraft have the tactical advantage of operating 3 dimensionally at extreme range using a superfast, small weapons platform capable of carrying weaponry with sufficient power to destroy a battleship with one hit. There is no such weapon in EVE. Before the frigate CM nerf, it was a little closer, but now there is no real similarity. If you want to fit frigates into aircraft role, that is all well and good, but it wasn't necessary to nerf turrets to achieve this. Frigates were already unhittable. IMO, the turret nerf was really a preparatory nerf to Tech I turrets so that Tech II turrests could be introduced with the same stats as the old Tech 1. (CCP did this to Tech I modules when their Tech II equivalents were rolled out). http://www.liketelevision.com/web1/classictv/longjohn/longjohn210.gif

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