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Zerode
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:05:00 -
[1]
A bit whine here, but it's founded after the huge changes that was done out of a pvp perspective!
The changes in Quantum rise maybee good for pvp but is so off ballance when it come to pve that it is impossible to use sertain ships anymore. The main thing is that pvp isn't a solo thing (mostly), pve is (mostly). Therefore making a BS not able to be effective at killing smaller targets affect pve alot more as there you don't have a smaller ship in fleet to kill it.
Solo playing in eve is hard enough as it is, making it even harder is "Sensured" (bad in realy fowl language).
Not all us doing pve is isk farmers that sell isk!!!!
Speed changes:
* Nothing but good! This was the no1 thing to fix in pvp and don't affect pve to much.
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you loose your drones you're toast.
* HAM is now not a option at all.
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
Webb changes:
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
* Turret based ships without a dronebay can't kill a NPC interceptor period. making them a deathtrapp tp fly (Zealot is one).
* Blasters on ships are now more or less useless. Can't hit frigattes even if there webbed and painted.
I can use most races ships with 15M sp in space ships alone in 3 races so I can adapt to theese changes, but many have specialiced in 1 race and a re stuck at that. CCP did these changes out of a pvp perspective alone and that has affected solo pve in a manner that's beond rediculess.
Balancing the races is fine, but don't nerf to acomplich that, boost what need to be boosted.
If intys/AS is to be better in it's role make them all able to fight outside webbrange with good dps output.
Torps might have had to high damage in pvp, solution is to decrease base damage.
Webber, Cruse, HAM and heavys was fine! |
Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:15:00 -
[2]
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
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OrDeR
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:18:00 -
[3]
cough* target painters, and its called cross training, ccp stuff up one race every year, so its good to train for others =p
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Arvald
Caldari
Ninjas N Pirates
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:23:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Zerode
Solo playing in eve is hard enough as it is, making it even harder is "Sensured" (bad in realy fowl language).
yeah only if your not very good at it, i dont really understand why everyone is running around screaming that solo pvp is dead, ive been getting some damn good solo kills because of the speed changed, and this is in stuff liek the sentinel crusader curse and pilgrim (......holy hell i didnt realize i was such an amarr *****  )
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:25:00 -
[5]
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:28:00 -
[6]
try ariley you cant hit bs orbiting you at 10km :D
Quote:
It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Lt Shard
Shoot To Thrill
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:29:00 -
[7]
mmmm tears. *bottles some for later* But Realy MMO's are a pvp game not truely pve. its just there for cash flow... or you can get all your cash flow from pvp... :D ...*drinks more tears*
Nothing has affected my pve income flow so your doing something wrong ( target painters anyone?). Also i am sick of the whine threads.
*drinks more tears*
The flavor is bland now
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Thenoran
Caldari
Hegemony Enterprises
E L I T E Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:34:00 -
[8]
The only speed change I disagree with is the change to battleship speed.
My Rokh with an ABII won't even hit 300m/s anymore, guess I'll have to go train for a Typhoon
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Ship Yield Calc
Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zerode
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
How can you be fighting NPC inties at the max range of a sentry drone and have them webbed?
Also, used to use medium drones to take out NPC inties. Now I have to use light drones, but the difference isn't significant.
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Zerode
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Zerode
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
How can you be fighting NPC inties at the max range of a sentry drone and have them webbed?
Also, used to use medium drones to take out NPC inties. Now I have to use light drones, but the difference isn't significant.
Who said you and your senrys have to be at the same spot? Lanch your sentrys and then fly 40-60km away and agro the npc.
For the ones saying PVE is as effective as it used to be you not in a torp ship or a turret ship without dronebay, that I'm sertain of. Torps is usable with a painter but only on BS/BC but it take longer now than it used to, longer = less isk/hour = nerfed
This thread was intended as a pve thead and I'm not interested in the pvp aspect one bit.  |
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Karentaki
Gallente
Fighting While Intoxicated
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Karentaki on 23/11/2008 17:03:42
Originally by: Zerode
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you loose your drones you're toast.
* HAM is now not a option at all.
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
* The truth is, the raven was previously significantly faster and better than all other BS's at running missions, now it's just slightly worse. Ever wonder why EVERYONE flew them to run L4's? As for losing your drones, welcome to the problems that all other BS's have had to put up with.
* Not really used HAM's much - can't comment on this
* Heavy missiles can't hit interceptors... kind of like how you can't his interceptors with heavy blasters, or 250mm rails, or lasers, or any other medium sized weapon system? balance FTW!
* By 'good' I assume you mean 'faster than any other races ships'? A raven is now a bit worse than other races ships, but this is how the nerfbat swings. Each patch the races get rebalanced so that some become worse and some become better. The last few patches Caldari have been boosted for PvP, now they needed rebalancing to be in line with the other races in PvP after the new speed changes. Unfortunately this means they're worse at PvE, but if you have the patience to wait a couple of patches I'm sure they'll come round again. After all, you can still just train for a falcon 
Anyway, overall L4's needed nerfing a bit since everyone and their alt was using them to get ISK for EVERYTHING.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Jelek Coro
Caldari
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:21:00 -
[12]
OP is so full of fail...
Raven is still tops with domi for pve.
A crap player with no skill blames the tools rather than bother looking at themselves.
Try to fit to face target rather than adopting a cookie cutter approach. Maybe you won't fail so much.
There has be no nerf. Just a much needed balance.
You can go back to crying now if you wish.
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Shareen Dainer
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:21:00 -
[13]
Before i start with my replies, Let me just say that i am a lvl 4 mission runner, I primarily fly a Raven fitted with cruise missiles. I also mine in a hulk from time to time, Though that doesn't matter here.
Originally by: Zerode
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you loose your drones you're toast.
Really? That's odd, I just adapted my setup slightly (changed one single module) and my time is about the same as before, And yes, I can still kill frigates with cruise missiles easy, The elite npc frigs take a couple volleys, But not that many really, And some of the non-elite npc frigates go down to a single volley of vanilla t1 cruise missiles.
Originally by: Zerode
* HAM is now not a option at all.
No idea about this as i don't use HAM's, But i imagine it'd be the same as with raven, An adapted setup probably does as well as before.
Originally by: Zerode
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
Since when were heavy missiles meant to be an anti-interceptor weapon anyway? I see no problem here, And i doubt they can't hit as i can hit them (And kill them) with cruise missiles (npc intys that is).
Originally by: Zerode
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
Raven, You just have to change your cookie cutter setup a little bit.
Originally by: Zerode
Webb changes:
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
* Turret based ships without a dronebay can't kill a NPC interceptor period. making them a deathtrapp tp fly (Zealot is one).
* Blasters on ships are now more or less useless. Can't hit frigattes even if there webbed and painted.
No idea about this as i don't fly turret ships, Nor drone ships, I focus 100% on the raven for missions.
All in all, I have no problem what so ever with this patch. |
Jelek Coro
Caldari
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
Or you know, use drones? TP does wonders as well.
No need to use precisions for pve.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:23:00 -
[15]
Stealth pve nerf ftw! No moar 2 month old lolmissileskilled raven alts making a bil a month or moar. Want your raven to be the solopwnmobile in level 4 again? How about you train up you missile and drone skills like every other turret pve player already had to do.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:27:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 17:29:51
Originally by: Zerode
The changes in Quantum rise maybee good for pvp but is so off ballance when it come to pve that it is impossible to use [c]ertain ships anymore. The main thing is that pvp isn't a solo thing (mostly), pve is (mostly). Therefore making a BS not able to be effective at killing smaller targets affect[s] pve alot more as there you don't have a smaller ship in fleet to kill it.
All useful PvE ships can fit the perfect weapon to kill smaller ships (in a way that very much emulates having a fleet): drones. Also, just for the record, PvE ≠ BS — there are plenty of ship choices which turn your points on their collective head.
Quote:
Solo playing in eve is hard enough as it is, making it even harder is "[c]ens[o]red" (bad in realy fo[u]l language).
Solo isn't supposed to be easy. However, solo PvE is about as easy as it gets — making it harder is a good thing.
Quote:
Speed changes:
* Nothing but good! This was the no1 thing to fix in pvp and don't affect pve to much.
Again, this assumes that PvE = BS. If you look beyond this flawed reasoning for a while, you'll notice that the speed change has had massive effects on PvE — especially L4s. The NPC battleships have been just as nerfed as player ships — except they can't refit to counter the nerf. Running missions against missile-spamming NPCs is vastly easier now, at least as long as you fly something BC-sized or smaller (and it should have the same effect, albeit to a lesser degree, for BS:s as well).
Quote:
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you l[o]se your drones you're toast.
Can't speak of this myself since I don't fly easymode-Ravens — it is, however, refuted by a number of people, and even if it was slightly nerfed, maybe that's a good thing. Variety and all that, you know…
Oh, and keeping your drones alive is dead simple — there's no reason (or excuse) to lose them, so being toast without them is a non-issue.
Quote:
* HAM is now not a option at all.
* Even heav[ie]s have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission [well] after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
All of these weapons work just fine against their inteded targets (Cruisers and up); and work just as before against larger targets. Again, the answer for smaller targets is the same as for everyone else: drones (which all of these ships can use, btw).
Quote:
Webb changes:
* Blasters on ships are now more or less useless. Can't hit frigattes even if there webbed and painted.
Funny that. My blasters are working just fine… Oh wait, you're not still trying to use the larger-size weapon against a smaller-size target, are you?
Quote:
Balancing the races is fine, but don't nerf to acompli[s]h that, boost what need to be boosted.
No. Balance through buffing is a very, very, very dangerous road to take. Nerfs are a far better option most of the time. Given how much needed to be changed, nerfs was definitely the way to go here.
Quote:
If intys/AS is to be better in it's role make them all able to fight outside webbrange with good dps output.
Incidentally, the changes have all made it possible for these ships to fight inside web range and survive… so the same goal is achieved, right?
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:30:00 -
[17]
TP really isnt needed on a raven, just use drones on small stuff and you are fine. Group your cruise missiles and suddenly there are far less defenders so you can do far more dps on battleships.
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jelek Coro
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
Or you know, use drones? TP does wonders as well.
No need to use precisions for pve.
Of course there is damn use for precisions in PvE, you lose tons of damage now because of the way they recalculated the damage if you don't. You'd be a fool to not to use them if you can. Drones of course work too, but for pegging interceptors at longer distances before they close the gap I prefer precision cruise coupled with the best named Target painter.
Hell for whatever reason quite often precision cruise missiles do more damage against NPC battleships than fury cruise missiles.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:32:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zerode
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
That show that the problem lies with you not the game. The Nighthawk has always been a better ship than the standard Raven for mission running in Caldari space.
Clearly you haven't done your research and the reason you are experiencing difficulty is because of that and probably poor skills. You went for the easy option and now are suffering because CCP have adjusted it.
Fit a TP and improve your skill set. Concentrate on drone skills and completing missile training. You'll still find that the Nighthawk is the better mission running ship (arguably it's better than a CNR since the patch) but with good skills a Raven is still quite a reasonable mission ship.
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Zerode
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:01:00 -
[20]
Hmm, how do I explain my point of view better.
I have 55M sp in Gallente, Amarr and Caldari. I have a lot of nano ships that I now have to refit and a snake set in my head so I've lost plenty in the speed nerf, but it was a good thing that speed was nerfed. The other changes are as I see it done wrong, but that's my opinion.
This was not a issue for me but for many of my corp m8s that specilized in 1 race. But as I fly all there ship types I have seen the changes myself first hand and some are realy harch. Killing a npc cruser with t1 torps are wichful thinking so it's medium drones to kill them, if you are a tad unlucky or unexperianced and loose them and a fresh npc group spawn your toast. Same go for my Golem and Paladin the 2 best mission ships in eve pre patch, now these too have to rely on there drones.
Changes that affect a so big area as the changes done here should not affect them as hard as it has.
Whould have been better to fix the ships and ship classes that was broken and not make a change that affect all classes. 
Even smaller ships are affected in a way that there now broken for pve.
Imagine taking a Zealot or anny 100% turret based ship in to a mission after QR, no drones and webber is nerfed so you won't hit a NPC interceptor. As I stated before, this is now a slow death for sure.
They fixed some ships just to make more broken in some extent, some more, some less.
My ideas for fix
* Speed: Current QR fixeas are fine. My Ishtar still go 672m/s with ab and Paladin is fast enough, same for the rest of the ships.
* Small ships: Make there range with max dps longer than webb range, no need to go in to webbrange. Class fixed.
* BS: Omg that Raven got me to 15% armour before I was in firing range, nerf torp base damage slightly. Boost long range turrets damage output. Fit long range turrets, problem fixed.
* Webb: Rollback change, no need for it!
AS for EVE being a 100% pvp game, not true. It's the playes choise to do pvp or pve. Whould be fun to se how many unike accounts that do mostly pvp vs. pve 
Eve is a player driven economy, how do you all think it whould look if all where bussy pvping and not mining, running missions, making ships and trading? It's like in the real world, not all are soldiers. Some are but the wast majority isn't, if they where the economy whould collapse.
Used to live in low sec but when stationary complexes where removed we moved to empire.
All in all this patch might be the 1 thing that make me go to 0.0 and stay there when isk/hour is even less once again. |
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Atama Cardel
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:48:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
I know for a fact that this is not true. I can two shot almost all NPC frigates with only the drone upgrade, and one shot them with an upgrade and painter, as long as I get them before they start orbiting of course.
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Alty MacAlterson
Alt Corporation
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:59:00 -
[22]
Sensured isn't "bad" in a fowl language, that's "bawk your mother".
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Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
This. I don't like the change, but this is how I have adapted.
(1) Keep 500-1000 Rat-Specific Precision Cruise in bay. Any cruiser over 100,000 in value gets Precision Cruise, about 70,000 for really fast cruisers such as Angel.
(2) Change order of targets. Now go Battlecruiser -> Cruiser -> Battleship -> HAC. Use drones for frigs. Tag team precision cruise and medium drones for HACS.
(3) Keep moving. This lessons impact of enemy missiles/torps. If nothing else move to and from the gate. Kiting is better.
I just purchased a CNR and ran Angel Extravaganza in a relatively decent time-frame. Things take a few more volleys, but the Raven/CNR is still faster than my Maelstrom.
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Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:27:00 -
[24]
Here: Missile Guide
At the end of the guide is a sweet little flash app that lets you see very clearly how all the different skills/bonuses/missile types work. it hasn't been updated with the same stats as the new code but the principles are the same.
By the time you have done enough research to understand every single field and chart on that app, then you will be able to fit any missile ship to do missions faster than before. If you use your brain.
The only thing that was changed in the patch is that missiles now require a good understanding of all their mechanics. Once you have that understanding, you will be much better for it.
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Hobbes277
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:45:00 -
[25]
My only complaint post QR is that my CNR only does 117 ms with maxed nav skills.
Reminds me of when I started L4s with 3 mill sp and no nav skils.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 04:09:00 -
[26]
For too long missiles were pve on easy mode, so I'm glad they changed things around and you have to actually think about your setup and the way you fly your ships. Instead of adapting though you just come onto the forums and whine. To me that says everything I need to know about you. You just want to keep playing Eve on easy mode, learn to adapt, use drones to kill the frigs like everyone else does.
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Lady Aja
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 05:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zerode
Webb changes:
* Turret based ships without a dronebay can't kill a NPC interceptor period. making them a deathtrapp tp fly (Zealot is one).
thats EXACTLY not true... one has to adapt to the new playing style. I did exactly just that.
I Admit its much harder to kill npc frigs/ceptors but thats life. if ccp was to do somethig like change the zealot ( which i fly ) to 2 turrets and 150% damage bonus ( effectivly makes it 5 ) and give it a web bonus similar to the paladin.. I would be over the hill on my new WTFBBQSAUCE ship. but ccp more than likely will never do that.
moral is. adapt or gimmie youre stuff...
You finally, really did it. YOU MANIACS! YOU NERFED IT UP! OH, DAMN YOU! GODDAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!.. |
Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 24/11/2008 08:12:27
L3s in a sacrilege using HAMs: Works just fine, already had a PWNAGE painter fitted before the changes and still have it now. I use its T2 Light drones when needed too.
Blows apart the average frig in 2-3 volleys with my lousy missile skills.
And there are a LOT of frigs in those missions.
(I use the Sacrilege when my Zealot has issues, such as against Guristas)
Can't say that the changes have affected it's performance that much.
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Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:32:00 -
[29]
i have been running and will be running missions in amarr ships.
i have some years of experience in doing them in omens, zealots, apocs, abaddons and now paladins.
while you raven isk farmers have been content for years just to hit F1 - Fwhatever (6?) and killed everything, other people had to think to make thinks work.
drones, they are great against all sorts of targets, now you just have to use small ones instead of medium.
so there i am in my tachyon fitted paladin and do not see anything that would be wrong with pve.
if i make tachyons work in missions you will surely find a way for your raven and your puny missiles?
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction
Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:34:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete.
Hi, get some skills.
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