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Zerode
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:05:00 -
[1]
A bit whine here, but it's founded after the huge changes that was done out of a pvp perspective!
The changes in Quantum rise maybee good for pvp but is so off ballance when it come to pve that it is impossible to use sertain ships anymore. The main thing is that pvp isn't a solo thing (mostly), pve is (mostly). Therefore making a BS not able to be effective at killing smaller targets affect pve alot more as there you don't have a smaller ship in fleet to kill it.
Solo playing in eve is hard enough as it is, making it even harder is "Sensured" (bad in realy fowl language).
Not all us doing pve is isk farmers that sell isk!!!!
Speed changes:
* Nothing but good! This was the no1 thing to fix in pvp and don't affect pve to much.
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you loose your drones you're toast.
* HAM is now not a option at all.
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
Webb changes:
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
* Turret based ships without a dronebay can't kill a NPC interceptor period. making them a deathtrapp tp fly (Zealot is one).
* Blasters on ships are now more or less useless. Can't hit frigattes even if there webbed and painted.
I can use most races ships with 15M sp in space ships alone in 3 races so I can adapt to theese changes, but many have specialiced in 1 race and a re stuck at that. CCP did these changes out of a pvp perspective alone and that has affected solo pve in a manner that's beond rediculess.
Balancing the races is fine, but don't nerf to acomplich that, boost what need to be boosted.
If intys/AS is to be better in it's role make them all able to fight outside webbrange with good dps output.
Torps might have had to high damage in pvp, solution is to decrease base damage.
Webber, Cruse, HAM and heavys was fine! |
Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:15:00 -
[2]
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
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OrDeR
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:18:00 -
[3]
cough* target painters, and its called cross training, ccp stuff up one race every year, so its good to train for others =p
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Arvald
Caldari
Ninjas N Pirates
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:23:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Zerode
Solo playing in eve is hard enough as it is, making it even harder is "Sensured" (bad in realy fowl language).
yeah only if your not very good at it, i dont really understand why everyone is running around screaming that solo pvp is dead, ive been getting some damn good solo kills because of the speed changed, and this is in stuff liek the sentinel crusader curse and pilgrim (......holy hell i didnt realize i was such an amarr *****  )
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:25:00 -
[5]
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:28:00 -
[6]
try ariley you cant hit bs orbiting you at 10km :D
Quote:
It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Lt Shard
Shoot To Thrill
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:29:00 -
[7]
mmmm tears. *bottles some for later* But Realy MMO's are a pvp game not truely pve. its just there for cash flow... or you can get all your cash flow from pvp... :D ...*drinks more tears*
Nothing has affected my pve income flow so your doing something wrong ( target painters anyone?). Also i am sick of the whine threads.
*drinks more tears*
The flavor is bland now
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Thenoran
Caldari
Hegemony Enterprises
E L I T E Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:34:00 -
[8]
The only speed change I disagree with is the change to battleship speed.
My Rokh with an ABII won't even hit 300m/s anymore, guess I'll have to go train for a Typhoon
------------------------
Ship Yield Calc
Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zerode
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
How can you be fighting NPC inties at the max range of a sentry drone and have them webbed?
Also, used to use medium drones to take out NPC inties. Now I have to use light drones, but the difference isn't significant.
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Zerode
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Zerode
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
How can you be fighting NPC inties at the max range of a sentry drone and have them webbed?
Also, used to use medium drones to take out NPC inties. Now I have to use light drones, but the difference isn't significant.
Who said you and your senrys have to be at the same spot? Lanch your sentrys and then fly 40-60km away and agro the npc.
For the ones saying PVE is as effective as it used to be you not in a torp ship or a turret ship without dronebay, that I'm sertain of. Torps is usable with a painter but only on BS/BC but it take longer now than it used to, longer = less isk/hour = nerfed
This thread was intended as a pve thead and I'm not interested in the pvp aspect one bit.  |
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Karentaki
Gallente
Fighting While Intoxicated
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Karentaki on 23/11/2008 17:03:42
Originally by: Zerode
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you loose your drones you're toast.
* HAM is now not a option at all.
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
* The truth is, the raven was previously significantly faster and better than all other BS's at running missions, now it's just slightly worse. Ever wonder why EVERYONE flew them to run L4's? As for losing your drones, welcome to the problems that all other BS's have had to put up with.
* Not really used HAM's much - can't comment on this
* Heavy missiles can't hit interceptors... kind of like how you can't his interceptors with heavy blasters, or 250mm rails, or lasers, or any other medium sized weapon system? balance FTW!
* By 'good' I assume you mean 'faster than any other races ships'? A raven is now a bit worse than other races ships, but this is how the nerfbat swings. Each patch the races get rebalanced so that some become worse and some become better. The last few patches Caldari have been boosted for PvP, now they needed rebalancing to be in line with the other races in PvP after the new speed changes. Unfortunately this means they're worse at PvE, but if you have the patience to wait a couple of patches I'm sure they'll come round again. After all, you can still just train for a falcon 
Anyway, overall L4's needed nerfing a bit since everyone and their alt was using them to get ISK for EVERYTHING.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Jelek Coro
Caldari
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:21:00 -
[12]
OP is so full of fail...
Raven is still tops with domi for pve.
A crap player with no skill blames the tools rather than bother looking at themselves.
Try to fit to face target rather than adopting a cookie cutter approach. Maybe you won't fail so much.
There has be no nerf. Just a much needed balance.
You can go back to crying now if you wish.
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Shareen Dainer
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:21:00 -
[13]
Before i start with my replies, Let me just say that i am a lvl 4 mission runner, I primarily fly a Raven fitted with cruise missiles. I also mine in a hulk from time to time, Though that doesn't matter here.
Originally by: Zerode
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you loose your drones you're toast.
Really? That's odd, I just adapted my setup slightly (changed one single module) and my time is about the same as before, And yes, I can still kill frigates with cruise missiles easy, The elite npc frigs take a couple volleys, But not that many really, And some of the non-elite npc frigates go down to a single volley of vanilla t1 cruise missiles.
Originally by: Zerode
* HAM is now not a option at all.
No idea about this as i don't use HAM's, But i imagine it'd be the same as with raven, An adapted setup probably does as well as before.
Originally by: Zerode
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
Since when were heavy missiles meant to be an anti-interceptor weapon anyway? I see no problem here, And i doubt they can't hit as i can hit them (And kill them) with cruise missiles (npc intys that is).
Originally by: Zerode
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
Raven, You just have to change your cookie cutter setup a little bit.
Originally by: Zerode
Webb changes:
* Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
* Turret based ships without a dronebay can't kill a NPC interceptor period. making them a deathtrapp tp fly (Zealot is one).
* Blasters on ships are now more or less useless. Can't hit frigattes even if there webbed and painted.
No idea about this as i don't fly turret ships, Nor drone ships, I focus 100% on the raven for missions.
All in all, I have no problem what so ever with this patch. |
Jelek Coro
Caldari
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
Or you know, use drones? TP does wonders as well.
No need to use precisions for pve.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:23:00 -
[15]
Stealth pve nerf ftw! No moar 2 month old lolmissileskilled raven alts making a bil a month or moar. Want your raven to be the solopwnmobile in level 4 again? How about you train up you missile and drone skills like every other turret pve player already had to do.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:27:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 17:29:51
Originally by: Zerode
The changes in Quantum rise maybee good for pvp but is so off ballance when it come to pve that it is impossible to use [c]ertain ships anymore. The main thing is that pvp isn't a solo thing (mostly), pve is (mostly). Therefore making a BS not able to be effective at killing smaller targets affect[s] pve alot more as there you don't have a smaller ship in fleet to kill it.
All useful PvE ships can fit the perfect weapon to kill smaller ships (in a way that very much emulates having a fleet): drones. Also, just for the record, PvE ≠ BS — there are plenty of ship choices which turn your points on their collective head.
Quote:
Solo playing in eve is hard enough as it is, making it even harder is "[c]ens[o]red" (bad in realy fo[u]l language).
Solo isn't supposed to be easy. However, solo PvE is about as easy as it gets — making it harder is a good thing.
Quote:
Speed changes:
* Nothing but good! This was the no1 thing to fix in pvp and don't affect pve to much.
Again, this assumes that PvE = BS. If you look beyond this flawed reasoning for a while, you'll notice that the speed change has had massive effects on PvE — especially L4s. The NPC battleships have been just as nerfed as player ships — except they can't refit to counter the nerf. Running missions against missile-spamming NPCs is vastly easier now, at least as long as you fly something BC-sized or smaller (and it should have the same effect, albeit to a lesser degree, for BS:s as well).
Quote:
Missile changes:
* Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete. If you l[o]se your drones you're toast.
Can't speak of this myself since I don't fly easymode-Ravens — it is, however, refuted by a number of people, and even if it was slightly nerfed, maybe that's a good thing. Variety and all that, you know…
Oh, and keeping your drones alive is dead simple — there's no reason (or excuse) to lose them, so being toast without them is a non-issue.
Quote:
* HAM is now not a option at all.
* Even heav[ie]s have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission [well] after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
All of these weapons work just fine against their inteded targets (Cruisers and up); and work just as before against larger targets. Again, the answer for smaller targets is the same as for everyone else: drones (which all of these ships can use, btw).
Quote:
Webb changes:
* Blasters on ships are now more or less useless. Can't hit frigattes even if there webbed and painted.
Funny that. My blasters are working just fine… Oh wait, you're not still trying to use the larger-size weapon against a smaller-size target, are you?
Quote:
Balancing the races is fine, but don't nerf to acompli[s]h that, boost what need to be boosted.
No. Balance through buffing is a very, very, very dangerous road to take. Nerfs are a far better option most of the time. Given how much needed to be changed, nerfs was definitely the way to go here.
Quote:
If intys/AS is to be better in it's role make them all able to fight outside webbrange with good dps output.
Incidentally, the changes have all made it possible for these ships to fight inside web range and survive… so the same goal is achieved, right?
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:30:00 -
[17]
TP really isnt needed on a raven, just use drones on small stuff and you are fine. Group your cruise missiles and suddenly there are far less defenders so you can do far more dps on battleships.
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jelek Coro
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
Or you know, use drones? TP does wonders as well.
No need to use precisions for pve.
Of course there is damn use for precisions in PvE, you lose tons of damage now because of the way they recalculated the damage if you don't. You'd be a fool to not to use them if you can. Drones of course work too, but for pegging interceptors at longer distances before they close the gap I prefer precision cruise coupled with the best named Target painter.
Hell for whatever reason quite often precision cruise missiles do more damage against NPC battleships than fury cruise missiles.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:32:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zerode
* I've yet to find any missile ship that can do a mission good after the change exept maybee the Nighthawk. But it's dps is realy low even with 3 BCS in it's lowslots.
That show that the problem lies with you not the game. The Nighthawk has always been a better ship than the standard Raven for mission running in Caldari space.
Clearly you haven't done your research and the reason you are experiencing difficulty is because of that and probably poor skills. You went for the easy option and now are suffering because CCP have adjusted it.
Fit a TP and improve your skill set. Concentrate on drone skills and completing missile training. You'll still find that the Nighthawk is the better mission running ship (arguably it's better than a CNR since the patch) but with good skills a Raven is still quite a reasonable mission ship.
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Zerode
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:01:00 -
[20]
Hmm, how do I explain my point of view better.
I have 55M sp in Gallente, Amarr and Caldari. I have a lot of nano ships that I now have to refit and a snake set in my head so I've lost plenty in the speed nerf, but it was a good thing that speed was nerfed. The other changes are as I see it done wrong, but that's my opinion.
This was not a issue for me but for many of my corp m8s that specilized in 1 race. But as I fly all there ship types I have seen the changes myself first hand and some are realy harch. Killing a npc cruser with t1 torps are wichful thinking so it's medium drones to kill them, if you are a tad unlucky or unexperianced and loose them and a fresh npc group spawn your toast. Same go for my Golem and Paladin the 2 best mission ships in eve pre patch, now these too have to rely on there drones.
Changes that affect a so big area as the changes done here should not affect them as hard as it has.
Whould have been better to fix the ships and ship classes that was broken and not make a change that affect all classes. 
Even smaller ships are affected in a way that there now broken for pve.
Imagine taking a Zealot or anny 100% turret based ship in to a mission after QR, no drones and webber is nerfed so you won't hit a NPC interceptor. As I stated before, this is now a slow death for sure.
They fixed some ships just to make more broken in some extent, some more, some less.
My ideas for fix
* Speed: Current QR fixeas are fine. My Ishtar still go 672m/s with ab and Paladin is fast enough, same for the rest of the ships.
* Small ships: Make there range with max dps longer than webb range, no need to go in to webbrange. Class fixed.
* BS: Omg that Raven got me to 15% armour before I was in firing range, nerf torp base damage slightly. Boost long range turrets damage output. Fit long range turrets, problem fixed.
* Webb: Rollback change, no need for it!
AS for EVE being a 100% pvp game, not true. It's the playes choise to do pvp or pve. Whould be fun to se how many unike accounts that do mostly pvp vs. pve 
Eve is a player driven economy, how do you all think it whould look if all where bussy pvping and not mining, running missions, making ships and trading? It's like in the real world, not all are soldiers. Some are but the wast majority isn't, if they where the economy whould collapse.
Used to live in low sec but when stationary complexes where removed we moved to empire.
All in all this patch might be the 1 thing that make me go to 0.0 and stay there when isk/hour is even less once again. |
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Atama Cardel
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:48:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Sentry drones can't hit NPC interceptors at there max range even with drone upgrade, painter and webbwer on them.
I know for a fact that this is not true. I can two shot almost all NPC frigates with only the drone upgrade, and one shot them with an upgrade and painter, as long as I get them before they start orbiting of course.
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Alty MacAlterson
Alt Corporation
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:59:00 -
[22]
Sensured isn't "bad" in a fowl language, that's "bawk your mother".
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Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Really, the only option is now to use precision cruise missiles in missions.
This. I don't like the change, but this is how I have adapted.
(1) Keep 500-1000 Rat-Specific Precision Cruise in bay. Any cruiser over 100,000 in value gets Precision Cruise, about 70,000 for really fast cruisers such as Angel.
(2) Change order of targets. Now go Battlecruiser -> Cruiser -> Battleship -> HAC. Use drones for frigs. Tag team precision cruise and medium drones for HACS.
(3) Keep moving. This lessons impact of enemy missiles/torps. If nothing else move to and from the gate. Kiting is better.
I just purchased a CNR and ran Angel Extravaganza in a relatively decent time-frame. Things take a few more volleys, but the Raven/CNR is still faster than my Maelstrom.
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Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:27:00 -
[24]
Here: Missile Guide
At the end of the guide is a sweet little flash app that lets you see very clearly how all the different skills/bonuses/missile types work. it hasn't been updated with the same stats as the new code but the principles are the same.
By the time you have done enough research to understand every single field and chart on that app, then you will be able to fit any missile ship to do missions faster than before. If you use your brain.
The only thing that was changed in the patch is that missiles now require a good understanding of all their mechanics. Once you have that understanding, you will be much better for it.
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Hobbes277
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:45:00 -
[25]
My only complaint post QR is that my CNR only does 117 ms with maxed nav skills.
Reminds me of when I started L4s with 3 mill sp and no nav skils.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 04:09:00 -
[26]
For too long missiles were pve on easy mode, so I'm glad they changed things around and you have to actually think about your setup and the way you fly your ships. Instead of adapting though you just come onto the forums and whine. To me that says everything I need to know about you. You just want to keep playing Eve on easy mode, learn to adapt, use drones to kill the frigs like everyone else does.
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Lady Aja
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 05:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zerode
Webb changes:
* Turret based ships without a dronebay can't kill a NPC interceptor period. making them a deathtrapp tp fly (Zealot is one).
thats EXACTLY not true... one has to adapt to the new playing style. I did exactly just that.
I Admit its much harder to kill npc frigs/ceptors but thats life. if ccp was to do somethig like change the zealot ( which i fly ) to 2 turrets and 150% damage bonus ( effectivly makes it 5 ) and give it a web bonus similar to the paladin.. I would be over the hill on my new WTFBBQSAUCE ship. but ccp more than likely will never do that.
moral is. adapt or gimmie youre stuff...
You finally, really did it. YOU MANIACS! YOU NERFED IT UP! OH, DAMN YOU! GODDAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!.. |
Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 24/11/2008 08:12:27
L3s in a sacrilege using HAMs: Works just fine, already had a PWNAGE painter fitted before the changes and still have it now. I use its T2 Light drones when needed too.
Blows apart the average frig in 2-3 volleys with my lousy missile skills.
And there are a LOT of frigs in those missions.
(I use the Sacrilege when my Zealot has issues, such as against Guristas)
Can't say that the changes have affected it's performance that much.
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Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:32:00 -
[29]
i have been running and will be running missions in amarr ships.
i have some years of experience in doing them in omens, zealots, apocs, abaddons and now paladins.
while you raven isk farmers have been content for years just to hit F1 - Fwhatever (6?) and killed everything, other people had to think to make thinks work.
drones, they are great against all sorts of targets, now you just have to use small ones instead of medium.
so there i am in my tachyon fitted paladin and do not see anything that would be wrong with pve.
if i make tachyons work in missions you will surely find a way for your raven and your puny missiles?
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction
Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:34:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Damage of Raven is now utterly useless in missions, missions take many times as long to complete.
Hi, get some skills.
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Kurt Ambrose
Caldari
Digital assassins
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:38:00 -
[31]
Before Patch: "cry cry my missiles wont hit nano ships!"
After Patch: "Haha! adapt or die nano***s.... wait WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY MISSILES?"
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Before Patch: "cry cry my missiles wont hit nano ships!"
After Patch: "Haha! adapt or die nano***s.... wait WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY MISSILES?"
Nah its more like , why did I waste 3-4 months on missiles instead of training a functioning weaponsystem :)
Ah well missiles will be repowered in a year or 3 :P
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Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:41:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Before Patch: "cry cry my missiles wont hit nano ships!"
After Patch: "Haha! adapt or die nano***s.... wait WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY MISSILES?"
Nah its more like , why did I waste 3-4 months on missiles instead of training a functioning weaponsystem :)
Ah well missiles will be repowered in a year or 3 :P
As soon as you figure out how to use them.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:16:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Hyveres on 24/11/2008 11:17:25
Originally by: Karille
As soon as you figure out how to use them.
As long as my nightmare outperforms my CNR against everything except angels there are no reason to use the CNR(except vs angels).
Tbh I regret spending the time upping missile skills when T2 tachs are so much better. For close range frigates you use drones anyway , all other circumstances turrets > missiles.
You do ofcourse the fact that missileships in general have inferior tank to their turretbased counterparts. Which for raven hulls become even more critical in fleets where armourtanking and RR is a lot more common than shield transfers.
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:02:00 -
[35]
My Raven alt still does L4s piece of cake wthout any problems. Use drones for frigs/cruisers just like every other race has to do.
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Ian Luxor
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:20:00 -
[36]
My List:
Key Solution... Drones engaging small Targets
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Essack Leadae
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra
My Raven alt still does L4s piece of cake wthout any problems. Use drones for frigs/cruisers just like every other race has to do.
Yeah, like every other race.
It is funny to read some players say that variety exists in EvE, but in fact it isn't.
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Essack Leadae
Originally by: iloni atoriandra
My Raven alt still does L4s piece of cake wthout any problems. Use drones for frigs/cruisers just like every other race has to do.
Yeah, like every other race.
It is funny to read some players say that variety exists in EvE, but in fact it isn't.
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Kelshron
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:52:00 -
[39]
In the weeks leading up to the patch notes for QR being released, I had been heavily training missile & shield skills specifically for running Level 4 missions in my Navy Raven. Having read the patch notes, I wasn't too happy about the way things were looking.
After the patch there was a definite downturn in the effect of the missiles, but after replacing 1 booster amp with a painter and fitting a second BCU, its not that bad. It doesn't take any longer than it used to, I'm still popping frigs & destroyers in 1 or 2 volleys with Tech I cruise missiles. If they get closer, Tech II light drones kill them.
It does affect the tank, I can't perma rep anymore, but it's no big deal, just turn on and off when needed.
Against Battleships, I'm getting the same damage now as I was before QR, popped in 5-6 volleys. I also carry 5 medium tech II drones to help with the BS's.
It's more important now to use the correct damage types on drones and missile, it didn't matter that much before. A painter definitely helps especially with all the support skills for it.
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Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:10:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 24/11/2008 13:12:11
Originally by: Kelshron
In the weeks leading up to the patch notes for QR being released, I had been heavily training missile & shield skills specifically for running Level 4 missions in my Navy Raven. Having read the patch notes, I wasn't too happy about the way things were looking.
After the patch there was a definite downturn in the effect of the missiles, but after replacing 1 booster amp with a painter and fitting a second BCU, its not that bad. It doesn't take any longer than it used to, I'm still popping frigs & destroyers in 1 or 2 volleys with Tech I cruise missiles. If they get closer, Tech II light drones kill them.
It does affect the tank, I can't perma rep anymore, but it's no big deal, just turn on and off when needed.
Against Battleships, I'm getting the same damage now as I was before QR, popped in 5-6 volleys. I also carry 5 medium tech II drones to help with the BS's.
It's more important now to use the correct damage types on drones and missile, it didn't matter that much before. A painter definitely helps especially with all the support skills for it.
it is really good to see someone who gives detailed information on how the patch affected the CNR / cruise missiles for missions and that you can adapt if you want to.
gives back some of the faith i lost in people out there having brains after all and not everyone was born with a 'whine-gland' on perma-discharge.
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:11:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Karille
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
How many times longer does it take than pre nerf?
Vote with your wallet, see if CCP can survive without 70% of players.
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Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
Originally by: Karille
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
How many times longer does it take than pre nerf?
Vote with your wallet, see if CCP can survive without 70% of players.
None times longer.
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
Originally by: Karille
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
How many times longer does it take than pre nerf?
Vote with your wallet, see if CCP can survive without 70% of players.
While my skills aren't exactly crap for L4 (still working on T2 large guns though) I'd agree with Karille, L4 PvE is just fine, missions take a tiny bit longer as my BS is now a bit slower but that's about it.
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Rachel Voegel
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Posted - 2008.11.24 15:19:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tiirae
Here: Missile Guide
...
it hasn't been updated with the same stats as the new code but the principles are the same.
I thought they had changed the missile damage formula, making that whole guide misleading.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 15:48:00 -
[45]
I started my first mission after the QR yesterday and it feels like it even became a bit easier for me. I use a fast Battleship with AB and 800mm AC and aside from Frigs there were really no problems, it feels even a bit easier to tank incoming damage with moving fast between a group of NPC BS.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:03:00 -
[46]
Everyone talks about drones to kill the inties and small ships in missions but it's not as easy as it seems. You aggro one group and get a coule of small ships on you, that's fine. You take out the big stuff and leave the small fry till last. The problem is that the small fry are webbing and scrambling you so you need to get rid of them before taking on the main group.
Launch drones and get them.. Oh, the ships that were passive are now shooting at my drones. Now my drones have gone, I have nothing to hit the small stuff with adn my guns/missiles do nothing to them. Since they are scrambling me, all I can do is keep on flying forward and hope they give up.
2 hours later...
Missiles and guns pre-nerf had little enough chance to kill the frigates etc before they reached you, now you can't even kill them at all without drones. Once you launch the drones, they suddenly draw aggro from everything. Absolutely amazing since your ship that is considerably larger has not attracted their attention. So they seem to be oblivious to the rhino but can easily see the flies around it's butt hole.
--
There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
All this has happened before and will happen again |
Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Everyone talks about drones to kill the inties and small ships in missions but it's not as easy as it seems. You aggro one group and get a coule of small ships on you, that's fine. You take out the big stuff and leave the small fry till last. The problem is that the small fry are webbing and scrambling you so you need to get rid of them before taking on the main group.
Launch drones and get them.. Oh, the ships that were passive are now shooting at my drones. Now my drones have gone, I have nothing to hit the small stuff with adn my guns/missiles do nothing to them. Since they are scrambling me, all I can do is keep on flying forward and hope they give up.
2 hours later...
Missiles and guns pre-nerf had little enough chance to kill the frigates etc before they reached you, now you can't even kill them at all without drones. Once you launch the drones, they suddenly draw aggro from everything. Absolutely amazing since your ship that is considerably larger has not attracted their attention. So they seem to be oblivious to the rhino but can easily see the flies around it's butt hole.
Lies, i run missions in an ishtar. They fixed most drone aggro issues a while ago.
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Before Patch: "cry cry my missiles wont hit nano ships!"
After Patch: "Haha! adapt or die nano***s.... wait WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY MISSILES?"
Quoting this for awesome ironic truth :D
If you cant use your drones to kill the small ships without them getting full aggro and dying your doing something wrong.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari
Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:24:00 -
[49]
Linkage to mah article you clearly missed.
You gotta remember that the devs themselves say that EVE is pvp based. That means PVE is never going to get priority over PVP. The only way that would be possible is if CCP were to make some sort of PVE only gear. Read my article though. id go on but im just to damn tired right now
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Mistress Evita
Caldari
Booze and Hookers
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:44:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Zerode
* Even heavys have a hard time hitting NPC interceptors making a Nighthawk harder to fly. It's still good at pve.
Now those light drones have a reason for being in the drone bay. And, in PvE, a Nighthawk is still very easy to fly in a mission.
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ViperVenom
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:47:00 -
[51]
Sorry to tell you but for me.. nothing changed..
Amazing i had good skills and now they show. -QR- got rid of noobs in Ravens smashing lv'4
Now that playing field is even..
--Yarring in a system near you--
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Damace
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:50:00 -
[52]
I concur with the OP. My Raven is usless against drones after patch. Now I am open to trying to figure out what I need to load to handle lvl 4 missions again, especialy with webbing drones I can not hit for over 30dmg. I have seen some ideas in this thread and I am game to give them a go. I hope to get it figured out with gear and training. I trust it is possible, but again, my previous setup pre-patch no longer works on lvl 4 missions.
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Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Damace
I concur with the OP. My Raven is usless against drones after patch. Now I am open to trying to figure out what I need to load to handle lvl 4 missions again, especialy with webbing drones I can not hit for over 30dmg. I have seen some ideas in this thread and I am game to give them a go. I hope to get it figured out with gear and training. I trust it is possible, but again, my previous setup pre-patch no longer works on lvl 4 missions.
You have my thanks for trying and not whining.
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Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
Originally by: Karille
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
How many times longer does it take than pre nerf?
Roughly 0.8 times longer for me since it's much more viable (and more fun) to use speed to reduce damage now, rather than relying on old boring turtle-tanking…
More speed = quicker on target; faster to the next gate; quicker overall.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:12:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Everyone talks about drones to kill the inties and small ships in missions but it's not as easy as it seems.
Yes it is. You're just doing it wrong.
Quote:
You aggro one group and get a coule of small ships on you, that's fine. You take out the big stuff and leave the small fry till last. The problem is that the small fry are webbing and scrambling you so you need to get rid of them before taking on the main group.
Scrambling frigs are irrelevant; webbers die if you sneeze at them; moving isn't all that required if you have long-range weapons (or at all if you make your targets come to you instead).
Quote:
Launch drones and get them.. Oh, the ships that were passive are now shooting at my drones. Now my drones have gone, I have nothing to hit the small stuff with adn my guns/missiles do nothing to them.
See? I told you you were doing things wrong. You keep an eye on the non-aggroed ships (or just check eve-survival if drone aggro is a problem), and as soon as they fire, you pull your drones in. Either they return to their positions, or switch you… if #1, great; if #2, meh — fit a proper tank. And, again, webbing ships die if you accidentally use harsh language, so you can kill them in droves before the first shot has even landed on your drones.
Quote:
Once you launch the drones, they suddenly draw aggro from everything.
You say this as if it was a universal truth, which it is not.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
McFly
C0LDFIRE
RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:18:00 -
[56]
I have a nighthawk for running level 4's and with 6 cal navy heavy launchers and 2 CN BCU/2 BCU II (I know 4 BCUs is too many...) But anyway, I have 3's and 4's in missile support skills, and I can still get through most lvl 4's at about the same speed. I usually kill everything off, then when there's nothing but frigates left I launch my drones let them have at it, go make a cup of coffee and bring in the salvager alt while my main's drones are working over the frigs.
I could waste ammo on them but I dont see the point. Other than that, I dont drop my drones during missions. If there is a mystery tackler, or etc I keep my drones in their bay until needed. Light T2 Flavor Specific drones still eat up mission frigs. And if you've not trained your drone skills, than do it.
In PVP Drones augment your DPS or provide EW when u can't carry it yourself. In PvE they are the only thing that will save you if your tank is failing and that griffen mission frig has you tackled. Keep them in the drone bay until needed.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:24:00 -
[57]
I dunno what everyone is complaining about with drones, I hardly ever get any drone aggro on missions and I don't aggro the entire stage. 
__________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:27:00 -
[58]
Try a different ship? I do epic damage in my Nightmare.
--
These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:49:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
I dunno what everyone is complaining about with drones, I hardly ever get any drone aggro on missions and I don't aggro the entire stage.
They don't aggro to you, the passive ones will shoot only at your drones but then ignore you if you pull your drones back in. Only when you aggro the passive ones by shooting at them that they will attack you.
Considering the fact that it takes upwards of 20 seconds with reasonable skills to lock a drone with a BS, it seems very surprising how fast the NPC's can lock them, I counted 4 to 5 seconds before one Domi started taking shots at my drones.
--
There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
All this has happened before and will happen again |
Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:59:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Originally by: Terianna Eri
I dunno what everyone is complaining about with drones, I hardly ever get any drone aggro on missions and I don't aggro the entire stage.
They don't aggro to you, the passive ones will shoot only at your drones but then ignore you if you pull your drones back in. Only when you aggro the passive ones by shooting at them that they will attack you.
Considering the fact that it takes upwards of 20 seconds with reasonable skills to lock a drone with a BS, it seems very surprising how fast the NPC's can lock them, I counted 4 to 5 seconds before one Domi started taking shots at my drones.
NPCS have epic targeting range and speed.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.11.24 20:03:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kelshron
It does affect the tank, I can't perma rep anymore, but it's no big deal, just turn on and off when needed.
Overtanking for missions has been a scourge for as long as people have ran missions. If moar whiners did like this guy and experiment with new setups and realize they didnt need that 6 slot permatank after all the forums would be a far far better place.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 20:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Zeba
Overtanking for missions has been a scourge for as long as people have ran missions. If moar whiners did like this guy and experiment with new setups and realize they didnt need that 6 slot permatank after all the forums would be a far far better place.
What?! Are you telling me I don't need a 1600 DPS tank against these evil wicked nasty NPC battleships?! Heresy!!  
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Gankbear
Amarr
Gankbears
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Posted - 2008.11.24 21:13:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Zerode
Speed changes:
* Nothing but good! This was the no1 thing to fix in pvp and don't affect pve to much.
moar tears from carebear raven mission runners with no skillz. Nothing But Good!
Expect me to care about your ravenwhine about as much as you care about my loss of speed and the depreciation in value in my Snake set.
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Tappits
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 21:38:00 -
[64]
just a quick Q:
Nighthawk > CNR - for L4's now or no? or just some missions? not run a mission or killed a rat in a raven since patch so dont know.
----------------------------------------------
Pro BOB?????
I fail At forums |
Blastil
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Posted - 2008.11.24 21:57:00 -
[65]
PVE is fine. I live in Guristas nullsec, and the guristas rats which operate out of there are finally soloable in a BC (high quality tripple 1.5 spawns!) like they should be. By fitting an AB, the burst damage is now lowered, and I can effectively tank the bastards with one repper on, and a second pulsing, like i could before with a MWD and EVERY OTHER RACE with the same BC. Remember kids- mission running in ravens isn't the ONLY profession in eve, and I've found that the nerf has balanced the caldari-based rats.
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Zanpt
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:50:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
Originally by: Karille
PVE is fine, i have crap skills and can complete every level 4 missions i have attempted since the patch.
/thread
How many times longer does it take than pre nerf?
Long enough. I ran one L4 mission, pulled Angel Extravaganza, found it to be awful and more work than fun. I immediately put my fully fitted CNR up for sale and I'm done with missions.
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
Vote with your wallet, see if CCP can survive without 70% of players.
I am voting with my wallet -- reducing from nine fulltime accounts down to an average of 2-4. CCP has screwed up too many things lately, and now there aren't even any decent belts to mine. I have better things to do with my money.
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hyveres
Edited by: Hyveres on 24/11/2008 11:17:25
Originally by: Karille
As soon as you figure out how to use them.
As long as my nightmare outperforms my CNR against everything except angels there are no reason to use the CNR(except vs angels).
Tbh I regret spending the time upping missile skills when T2 tachs are so much better. For close range frigates you use drones anyway , all other circumstances turrets > missiles.
You do ofcourse the fact that missileships in general have inferior tank to their turretbased counterparts. Which for raven hulls become even more critical in fleets where armourtanking and RR is a lot more common than shield transfers.
So you want a CNR which does not really need a lot of skill training to perfom like a nightmare which 1st needs the skills of 2 races and a lot more SP for using t2 weapons? Not even speaking of all the support skills to use them in an effective way?
If you want to use your raven for missions now, all you need to do is improve your missile support skills. I got a couple of friends who run missions in their Ravens (not even CNRs) every day and finish every level 4 mission solo.
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Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:31:00 -
[68]
wait wait!!
I think I hear a very tiny violin playing....
yea I think so....
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Lady Aja
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:12:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ian Luxor
My List:
Key Solution... Drones engaging small Targets
Drones have made most of my pve ldoable for the last two years.
Witgout them some ships i could never have broke tanks on using amarr ships namely the absol. ( used to mission for angel cartel )
t2 light drones with support skills at lvl 4 make a huge difference. also train up Electronic drone warfare interfacign or what ever it is for an extra 3km range per lvl... 57-60km drone range range without mods is sweet.
you guys need to adapt youre playign style i sure as hell did! no more half assed lazy missions. I have to get tranversal and the other one for tracking down IF frigs and ceptors get onto me, which is rare now days as i pick them off at 16-28km... they near insta pop with group weapons.
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Elias Modron
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:22:00 -
[70]
PvE Ishtar ftw tbh.
As someone said earlier in this thread, missile changes have made it easier to do missions in under-sized ships (L4s in HAC, L3s in AF).
My Ishtar used to struggle with Angel missions, the vast amount of explosive missile damage in some missions was hard for me to overcome, but it was possible. Now all I have to do is move at my base speed to cancel out a good portion of the damage. Bliss!
I used to do L3s in an Enyo for fun, Angel missions were next to impossible because even with an afterburner I couldn't out-run the missile damage and I'd go into hull pretty quickly. Should be doable now, but haven't tried it.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:25:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 11:26:21
Originally by: Jim Hazard
Originally by: Hyveres
Edited by: Hyveres on 24/11/2008 11:17:25
Originally by: Karille
As soon as you figure out how to use them.
As long as my nightmare outperforms my CNR against everything except angels there are no reason to use the CNR(except vs angels).
Tbh I regret spending the time upping missile skills when T2 tachs are so much better. For close range frigates you use drones anyway , all other circumstances turrets > missiles.
You do ofcourse the fact that missileships in general have inferior tank to their turretbased counterparts. Which for raven hulls become even more critical in fleets where armourtanking and RR is a lot more common than shield transfers.
So you want a CNR which does not really need a lot of skill training to perfom like a nightmare which 1st needs the skills of 2 races and a lot more SP for using t2 weapons? Not even speaking of all the support skills to use them in an effective way?
If you want to use your raven for missions now, all you need to do is improve your missile support skills. I got a couple of friends who run missions in their Ravens (not even CNRs) every day and finish every level 4 mission solo.
What I am saying is that once you reach a certain treshhold gunnery > missiles nomatter how much SP you put into it.
The balance changes in QR has moved the balance even more in the direction of turretbased ships meaning that turrets > missiles at an earlier level than it used to be.
Its just a matter of simple efficiency and missiles are not efficient. The only 2 missiletypes that seem worthwhile are torps and HAMs. Neither of which is a good option when doing solo PvE. Originally by: Lady Aja
Drones have made most of my pve ldoable for the last two years.
Witgout them some ships i could never have broke tanks on using amarr ships namely the absol. ( used to mission for angel cartel )
t2 light drones with support skills at lvl 4 make a huge difference. also train up Electronic drone warfare interfacign or what ever it is for an extra 3km range per lvl... 57-60km drone range range without mods is sweet.
you guys need to adapt youre playign style i sure as hell did! no more half assed lazy missions. I have to get tranversal and the other one for tracking down IF frigs and ceptors get onto me, which is rare now days as i pick them off at 16-28km... they near insta pop with group weapons.
Are you saying you instapop frigates at 16-28 km ranges with BS sized weaponry? the horror..
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:07:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Andrue on 25/11/2008 12:09:54
Originally by: Tappits
just a quick Q:
Nighthawk > CNR - for L4's now or no? or just some missions? not run a mission or killed a rat in a raven since patch so dont know.
For most of them, I'd say. There never was a great deal in it but now I reckon the NH is better (or no different) for everything except the Extravaganzas, Worlds Collide and Pirate Invasion.
I always viewed missiles as the lazy option for PvE. The recent changes mean you have to have good skills to get the most out of them which is good. I like the way the NH has effectively been given a boost. Instead of being a niche choice for those that want the semi-afk life it has become a genuinely good choice. It still sucks for PvP but us NH pilots can hold our heads up with pride in PvE.
We is flying a damn good ship
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
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