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Why are Shield Ext. so much worse than Armor Reinforcers?

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Menath Zaro	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:29:00 - [1] Saw this posted by Aequitas Veritas in Tomb's Missile thread, think it deserves a discussion. Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Why is it supposed to be so much harder to fit Shield Extenders for shield tankers than it is for Armor tankers to fit Armor Reinforcers? 1600 mm Steel Plate 1600 HP 500 PG 30 CPU Large Shield Extender I 1000 HP 400 PG 100 CPU I mean, why so low PG on the Armor Reinforcer, and what is up with the CPU requirements of the Large Shield Extender, it makes it impossible to use along with say launchers, youll have troubles fitting one of them, not to mention trying to fit more of them... A XL shieldbooster is 200 CPU. With Standard Siege Launchers, those add up to be 371 CPU with Weapon Upgrades Level 5. How are you supposed to be able to fit them? And most importantly, why so easy to fit the armor reinforcers compared to the shield extenders? Maybe you could introduce a skill that Reduces Shield Subsystem and Shield Upgrade Modules By 5%? Or simply reduce the CPU requirements down towards the Armor Reinforcer, so that their fitting requirements are in proportion. 50 CPU requirement and 400 PG vs 30 CPU and 500 pg. (Still easier to fit armor reinforcers)
Menath Zaro	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:29:00 - [2] Saw this posted by Aequitas Veritas in Tomb's Missile thread, think it deserves a discussion. Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Why is it supposed to be so much harder to fit Shield Extenders for shield tankers than it is for Armor tankers to fit Armor Reinforcers? 1600 mm Steel Plate 1600 HP 500 PG 30 CPU Large Shield Extender I 1000 HP 400 PG 100 CPU I mean, why so low PG on the Armor Reinforcer, and what is up with the CPU requirements of the Large Shield Extender, it makes it impossible to use along with say launchers, youll have troubles fitting one of them, not to mention trying to fit more of them... A XL shieldbooster is 200 CPU. With Standard Siege Launchers, those add up to be 371 CPU with Weapon Upgrades Level 5. How are you supposed to be able to fit them? And most importantly, why so easy to fit the armor reinforcers compared to the shield extenders? Maybe you could introduce a skill that Reduces Shield Subsystem and Shield Upgrade Modules By 5%? Or simply reduce the CPU requirements down towards the Armor Reinforcer, so that their fitting requirements are in proportion. 50 CPU requirement and 400 PG vs 30 CPU and 500 pg. (Still easier to fit armor reinforcers)
crazychimp	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:37:00 - [3] Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
crazychimp	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:37:00 - [4] Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 - [5] Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 10/07/2004 22:49:27 Originally by: crazychimp Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl But shouldnt that come from the higher HP bonus? Not from fitting requirement? Its almost impossible to fit this module, that the bonus to HP is ok, but you should still be able to fit the module. How many shield users use this? I dont know of any, but i know of plent who has plates fitted.
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 - [6] Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 10/07/2004 22:49:27 Originally by: crazychimp Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl But shouldnt that come from the higher HP bonus? Not from fitting requirement? Its almost impossible to fit this module, that the bonus to HP is ok, but you should still be able to fit the module. How many shield users use this? I dont know of any, but i know of plent who has plates fitted.
Nanya	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 - [7] Originally by: crazychimp Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl And shields are better to have - even when you lose them completely, you have still plenty of armor left :)
Nanya	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 - [8] Originally by: crazychimp Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl And shields are better to have - even when you lose them completely, you have still plenty of armor left :)
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:48:00 - [9] Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:48:00 - [10] Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Gariuys Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid. For a Raven(best CPU) its then 100/875 cpu. For a Apoc its 1000/23000+ Then its out of proportion. I dont think that it should be harder to fit plates, but should be easier to fit the shield extenders as its close to impossible to fit them now.
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Gariuys Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid. For a Raven(best CPU) its then 100/875 cpu. For a Apoc its 1000/23000+ Then its out of proportion. I dont think that it should be harder to fit plates, but should be easier to fit the shield extenders as its close to impossible to fit them now.
Nafri	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Gariuys Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid. but shield tanks have not enough cpu for that module, hell 100 CPU its a lot Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:53:00 - [14] Originally by: Gariuys Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid. but shield tanks have not enough cpu for that module, hell 100 CPU its a lot Wanna fly with me?
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:56:00 - [15] Probably want to fit more than 1 as well when you want to increase your shield size instead of having boosting power. Like switch the AMP for a Extender etc...
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 22:56:00 - [16] Probably want to fit more than 1 as well when you want to increase your shield size instead of having boosting power. Like switch the AMP for a Extender etc...
Meridius	Posted - 2004.07.10 23:22:00 - [17] Who uses armor/shield extenders If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less... ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2004.07.10 23:22:00 - [18] Who uses armor/shield extenders If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less... ________________________________________________________
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 23:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Meridius Who uses armor/shield extenders If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less... Point is that they are modules that atm armortankers can benefit, but shield tankes cant due to the insane cpu requirements which adds up with launcher and shield booster insane cpu. And in certain situations they might be useful
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.10 23:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Meridius Who uses armor/shield extenders If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less... Point is that they are modules that atm armortankers can benefit, but shield tankes cant due to the insane cpu requirements which adds up with launcher and shield booster insane cpu. And in certain situations they might be useful
Hellek	Posted - 2004.07.10 23:56:00 - [21] Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34 I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left. so making it easier for armortanks to add some HP can't hurt as the use of the item is very limited anyway. the extra HP are just useful to warp out (as armor+structure are when shieldtanking) but not much more. The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
Hellek	Posted - 2004.07.10 23:56:00 - [22] Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34 I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left. so making it easier for armortanks to add some HP can't hurt as the use of the item is very limited anyway. the extra HP are just useful to warp out (as armor+structure are when shieldtanking) but not much more. The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2004.07.11 00:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Hellek Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34 I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left. I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields. Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience. -- Director of Ganking: Death Row Inc.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2004.07.11 00:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Hellek Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34 I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left. I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields. Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience. -- Director of Ganking: Death Row Inc.
Hellek	Posted - 2004.07.11 00:53:00 - [25] in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference. also there is one important thing I forgot to say before: Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec. Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists).
Hellek	Posted - 2004.07.11 00:53:00 - [26] in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference. also there is one important thing I forgot to say before: Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec. Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists).
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.11 08:30:00 - [27] Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:37:59 Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:32:50 Originally by: Hamatitio Originally by: Hellek Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34 I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left. I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields. Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience. Got to agree with Hamatitio here. Its like a uber bad argument. As you still have to chew through the shield before you start loosing armor. So the amount of HP that our attacker has to kill is about the same. Once whatever you have hardened runs out of HP, armor is gone in secounds as well like Hamatitio said. And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed. Originally by: Hellek in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference. Point isn't that it's very useful module, that it's a type of module that only armortanks benefit from atm due to the fitting requirements. Armor Reinforcers give about twice as much HP as the shield ones does. That could be the bonus you get that "saves up" some HP so you can warp out. Hardly a argument that shield tankers shouldnt be able to use them. Originally by: Hellek also there is one important thing I forgot to say before: Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec. Very wrong. You got to get ur math straightened out m8. Raven: 4800 base shield, 5834 shield with Shield Management lvl 4. 5 PDU2: 6825 shield (no warp cores on to secure warp out). Recharger time: 2000s, 1629s with Shield Operation lvl4, with 5 PDU2: 1044,8sec. So the equation is then: 6825shield/1045sec = 6,53 Shield/Sec How wrong can you get Hellek? Originally by: Hellek Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists). You have room for PDU's on most armor tanking ships. I use two on my Apoc. And I'd change my PDU for some Cap Relays anytime so I had enough cap to keep my XL booster running for more than one min, as thats about what i can do now before running out of cap. As long as you can use Cap Relay 2s (25%) and fill up your med slots with Tech 2 Cap Reachers (20%), which shield tankers can't cus they need those slots for Cap Rechare, you really really shouldnt complain about that. Raven cant fit anything without using Powerupgrading modules, it cant tank without fitting cap recharging modules and I dont dare to think how it must be for Dominix Pilots. But please stick to the topic of this thread, the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer. Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread. Hellek: You seem to want this type of module to only be usable for armor tankers. I dont see how that helps balance the game at all. Rather you should be focusing on the bonuses these modules gives and balance that out so its fair, as long as you actually have an interest in having a fair game of course. I know you fly a Apoc and I like mine as well, but I dont see why you wont let shieldtankers have a module that is usable. Fitting it requires about 1/9th of a Raven's CPU, 2/15th (1/7,5th) of a Dominix's CPU, while the Armor Reinforcers use 1/46th of a Apocalypse's PG, roughly 1/40th of the Megathrons PG. Balanced you think? Hardly. The fitting requirements should be balanced and so should the bonuses, but atm its allmost impossible to fit the Shield Extenders, while fitting the Armor Reinforcers is very easy.
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2004.07.11 08:30:00 - [28] Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:37:59 Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:32:50 Originally by: Hamatitio Originally by: Hellek Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34 I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left. I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields. Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience. Got to agree with Hamatitio here. Its like a uber bad argument. As you still have to chew through the shield before you start loosing armor. So the amount of HP that our attacker has to kill is about the same. Once whatever you have hardened runs out of HP, armor is gone in secounds as well like Hamatitio said. And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed. Originally by: Hellek in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference. Point isn't that it's very useful module, that it's a type of module that only armortanks benefit from atm due to the fitting requirements. Armor Reinforcers give about twice as much HP as the shield ones does. That could be the bonus you get that "saves up" some HP so you can warp out. Hardly a argument that shield tankers shouldnt be able to use them. Originally by: Hellek also there is one important thing I forgot to say before: Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec. Very wrong. You got to get ur math straightened out m8. Raven: 4800 base shield, 5834 shield with Shield Management lvl 4. 5 PDU2: 6825 shield (no warp cores on to secure warp out). Recharger time: 2000s, 1629s with Shield Operation lvl4, with 5 PDU2: 1044,8sec. So the equation is then: 6825shield/1045sec = 6,53 Shield/Sec How wrong can you get Hellek? Originally by: Hellek Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists). You have room for PDU's on most armor tanking ships. I use two on my Apoc. And I'd change my PDU for some Cap Relays anytime so I had enough cap to keep my XL booster running for more than one min, as thats about what i can do now before running out of cap. As long as you can use Cap Relay 2s (25%) and fill up your med slots with Tech 2 Cap Reachers (20%), which shield tankers can't cus they need those slots for Cap Rechare, you really really shouldnt complain about that. Raven cant fit anything without using Powerupgrading modules, it cant tank without fitting cap recharging modules and I dont dare to think how it must be for Dominix Pilots. But please stick to the topic of this thread, the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer. Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread. Hellek: You seem to want this type of module to only be usable for armor tankers. I dont see how that helps balance the game at all. Rather you should be focusing on the bonuses these modules gives and balance that out so its fair, as long as you actually have an interest in having a fair game of course. I know you fly a Apoc and I like mine as well, but I dont see why you wont let shieldtankers have a module that is usable. Fitting it requires about 1/9th of a Raven's CPU, 2/15th (1/7,5th) of a Dominix's CPU, while the Armor Reinforcers use 1/46th of a Apocalypse's PG, roughly 1/40th of the Megathrons PG. Balanced you think? Hardly. The fitting requirements should be balanced and so should the bonuses, but atm its allmost impossible to fit the Shield Extenders, while fitting the Armor Reinforcers is very easy.
Ethelie	Posted - 2004.07.11 11:14:00 - [29] Well the armor will go down as faston a shield tank as the shield did on an armor tank so that is no excuse There is no diffrence in HP on a Shield tanked or a Armor tanked ship Its just that you have abit longer time to see your ship gets lost when you shield tank
Ethelie	Posted - 2004.07.11 11:14:00 - [30] Well the armor will go down as faston a shield tank as the shield did on an armor tank so that is no excuse There is no diffrence in HP on a Shield tanked or a Armor tanked ship Its just that you have abit longer time to see your ship gets lost when you shield tank

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