| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Aequitas Veritas
   |
Posted - 2004.07.11 22:26:00 -
[61]
We all know about the hardeners, and thats a valid point. I think those should be brought into the game. But, armor tankers do benefit from the higher natural resistance, so they got something else instead.
Anyway, hardeners have rather little to do with the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer issue. So please try and discuss that.
|
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.11 22:26:00 -
[62]
We all know about the hardeners, and thats a valid point. I think those should be brought into the game. But, armor tankers do benefit from the higher natural resistance, so they got something else instead.
Anyway, hardeners have rather little to do with the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer issue. So please try and discuss that.
|
Zenst
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 02:46:00 -
[63]
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion. Though in comparison to say blackbird with medium shield extenders, I find not only can you fit more, but on balance from the gain in respect to the base shields I get a better value fit. Had a blackbird with more shields than a scorp 8), and you can imagine the natural recharge rate. Doing the same approach on a scorpion is not as easy, though I only have level 4 shield upgrades. In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable. Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shieldĘs better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version. I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
|
Zenst
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 02:46:00 -
[64]
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion. Though in comparison to say blackbird with medium shield extenders, I find not only can you fit more, but on balance from the gain in respect to the base shields I get a better value fit. Had a blackbird with more shields than a scorp 8), and you can imagine the natural recharge rate. Doing the same approach on a scorpion is not as easy, though I only have level 4 shield upgrades. In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable. Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shieldĘs better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version. I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
|
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 06:38:00 -
[65]
 Originally by: Zenst
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion.
Shield Upgrades reduce the PG requirement, which isnt the problem. Problem is the 100 in CPU req.
Originally by: zenst
In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable.
Yes, I find the plates and extenders bonuses to be fairly balanced when you take all these factors into concideration. Though I think the fittinq reqs are out of balanace, simply as you can really fit extenders on shield tankers, no cpu.
Quote:
Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shield’s better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version.
Those Scorps wouldnt have much of offensive capabilities in the form of EW or in firepower doing it that way. So seems like a fair switch doesnt it?
Originally by: Zenst
I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
Id like a Large SB that boosts as much and uses as little cap as the large armor repairer. Then maybe shield tanks could tank 24/7 as well :) But can only hope :)
|
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 06:38:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Zenst
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion.
Shield Upgrades reduce the PG requirement, which isnt the problem. Problem is the 100 in CPU req.
Originally by: zenst
In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable.
Yes, I find the plates and extenders bonuses to be fairly balanced when you take all these factors into concideration. Though I think the fittinq reqs are out of balanace, simply as you can really fit extenders on shield tankers, no cpu.
Quote:
Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shield’s better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version.
Those Scorps wouldnt have much of offensive capabilities in the form of EW or in firepower doing it that way. So seems like a fair switch doesnt it?
Originally by: Zenst
I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
Id like a Large SB that boosts as much and uses as little cap as the large armor repairer. Then maybe shield tanks could tank 24/7 as well :) But can only hope :)
|
Drusilla
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 19:43:00 -
[67]
One point, folks -
Even without any gear aboard to affect it eventually your shield goes all the way back to full all by itself. Armor requires either modules or money to repair.
|
Drusilla
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 19:43:00 -
[68]
One point, folks -
Even without any gear aboard to affect it eventually your shield goes all the way back to full all by itself. Armor requires either modules or money to repair.
|
Hellek
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 20:31:00 -
[69]
With 5 PDU fitted, its actually even about 15HP per second when shield is low. Thats about 15% of what a namd (neutron) XL SB boosts per second, and its all the time, without any cap use.
And one thing nobody mentioned so far: shield is increased by up to 10% by the gang skill "escort tactics", if operating in a gang. there is no such skill for armor.
So really no reason why any shield mods would need a boost or why armor mods would need a nerf.
|
Hellek
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 20:31:00 -
[70]
With 5 PDU fitted, its actually even about 15HP per second when shield is low. Thats about 15% of what a namd (neutron) XL SB boosts per second, and its all the time, without any cap use.
And one thing nobody mentioned so far: shield is increased by up to 10% by the gang skill "escort tactics", if operating in a gang. there is no such skill for armor.
So really no reason why any shield mods would need a boost or why armor mods would need a nerf.
|
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 20:56:00 -
[71]
Hellek, im not asknig for the shield extenders to get a boost. there is a reason why it has half the HP bonus than the armor plates, and that is for the above mentioned reasons, shield recharge, skills that increase the bonus and so on.
Extenders and Reinforcers are modules that are there to be a buffer before you go down, so you can absorb more damage when your boosting/repairing modules cant keep up with the damage. So the amount of HP they give is the heaviest weighing factor with them. The little extra recharge you get from increasing your shield size with a extender doesnt make up for the fact that the modules are unfitable and end up being half the buffer of the Armor Reinforcers (maybe 1/3 then when you concider all skills etc).
What im asking is for the fitting reqs to be more balanced. atm it is impossible to use them due to that insane cpu need. there is a reason why a lot of ppl fly aroudn with plates and noone uses shiled extenders. If you ask yourself youll see that you know of a bunch of ppl that from time to time fits Armor Reinforcers and basically none that fits shield extenders. Can also do the easy math and see why Tungsten Armor Plates sells for 10mio pluss, but the best Shield extender you can pick up for 1 or 2 million depending on luck. Tech 2 Shield Extenders are sold for 3 million.
And I still cant believe that you think that the modules fitting requirment are balanced? That the bonuses they give are, I'll totally go for, but not the fitting requirements. They are hidiously unbalanced
|
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 20:56:00 -
[72]
Hellek, im not asknig for the shield extenders to get a boost. there is a reason why it has half the HP bonus than the armor plates, and that is for the above mentioned reasons, shield recharge, skills that increase the bonus and so on.
Extenders and Reinforcers are modules that are there to be a buffer before you go down, so you can absorb more damage when your boosting/repairing modules cant keep up with the damage. So the amount of HP they give is the heaviest weighing factor with them. The little extra recharge you get from increasing your shield size with a extender doesnt make up for the fact that the modules are unfitable and end up being half the buffer of the Armor Reinforcers (maybe 1/3 then when you concider all skills etc).
What im asking is for the fitting reqs to be more balanced. atm it is impossible to use them due to that insane cpu need. there is a reason why a lot of ppl fly aroudn with plates and noone uses shiled extenders. If you ask yourself youll see that you know of a bunch of ppl that from time to time fits Armor Reinforcers and basically none that fits shield extenders. Can also do the easy math and see why Tungsten Armor Plates sells for 10mio pluss, but the best Shield extender you can pick up for 1 or 2 million depending on luck. Tech 2 Shield Extenders are sold for 3 million.
And I still cant believe that you think that the modules fitting requirment are balanced? That the bonuses they give are, I'll totally go for, but not the fitting requirements. They are hidiously unbalanced
|
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 20:59:00 -
[73]
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 20:59:00 -
[74]
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 21:27:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ithildin
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
Original question was if the fitting requirements are balance: Shield Extender - 400pg & 100 CPU vs Armor Reinforcers - 500pg & 30 CPU
The bonuses themselves I never thought were out of balance.
|
Aequitas Veritas
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 21:27:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ithildin
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
Original question was if the fitting requirements are balance: Shield Extender - 400pg & 100 CPU vs Armor Reinforcers - 500pg & 30 CPU
The bonuses themselves I never thought were out of balance.
|
Tango612
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 22:00:00 -
[77]
They use far too much CPU to make them useful really.
|
Tango612
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 22:00:00 -
[78]
They use far too much CPU to make them useful really.
|
Bigby
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 22:17:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced 
|
Bigby
|
Posted - 2004.07.12 22:17:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced
|
Menath Zaro
|
Posted - 2004.07.13 19:22:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Bigby
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced
Actually I think the reason so few actually discussed it just points points out how few care about this module. Its so useless that noone really have used it or think it will be useful. But it has its spotlight buying ppl time, just like the armor reinforcer. And problem is as Aequitas was trying to say; the fitting requirements of the shield one is so enormous that noone can use them on top of all the launcher, shield booster and hardeners, 100 cpu means its only beaten by Shield Boosters. Its a module to buy you time before you crash and burn, it shouldnt be impossible to fit it. Particulary when the Armor Reinforcer is a joke to fit.
|
Menath Zaro
|
Posted - 2004.07.13 19:22:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Bigby
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced
Actually I think the reason so few actually discussed it just points points out how few care about this module. Its so useless that noone really have used it or think it will be useful. But it has its spotlight buying ppl time, just like the armor reinforcer. And problem is as Aequitas was trying to say; the fitting requirements of the shield one is so enormous that noone can use them on top of all the launcher, shield booster and hardeners, 100 cpu means its only beaten by Shield Boosters. Its a module to buy you time before you crash and burn, it shouldnt be impossible to fit it. Particulary when the Armor Reinforcer is a joke to fit.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.13 19:25:00 -
[83]
Agreed, they're a waste of a med slot, less cpu won't change that, but bringing the two options more inline fitting wise might be a idea for those that like em.
Armour plates are used cause well, buying time is a lot more important when your health cycles in 11-15 seconds.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.13 19:25:00 -
[84]
Agreed, they're a waste of a med slot, less cpu won't change that, but bringing the two options more inline fitting wise might be a idea for those that like em.
Armour plates are used cause well, buying time is a lot more important when your health cycles in 11-15 seconds.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
John Blackthorn
|
Posted - 2004.07.14 17:23:00 -
[85]
What an Interesting Topic.
As a Raven/Scorp pilot I have always wondered why the cpu requirements of the shield extenders were so high. I belive if the extenders were halfed it would very even to armor tanking.
Issue is that cpu being the limited factor to shield tanking and all of the modules that are used on raven/scorps are cpu intensive it limits the diversity of how the ships are setup.
Consider this... basic 1600mm plates give you 1600 armor for 500 grid. But 100 cpu give you 1000 shields.
500 grid from a ammar ship is 1/12 of its grid, but 100 cpu of a raven is 1/6 of it's cpu.
-BT
|
John Blackthorn
|
Posted - 2004.07.14 17:23:00 -
[86]
What an Interesting Topic.
As a Raven/Scorp pilot I have always wondered why the cpu requirements of the shield extenders were so high. I belive if the extenders were halfed it would very even to armor tanking.
Issue is that cpu being the limited factor to shield tanking and all of the modules that are used on raven/scorps are cpu intensive it limits the diversity of how the ships are setup.
Consider this... basic 1600mm plates give you 1600 armor for 500 grid. But 100 cpu give you 1000 shields.
500 grid from a ammar ship is 1/12 of its grid, but 100 cpu of a raven is 1/6 of it's cpu.
-BT
|
Mikelangelo
|
Posted - 2004.07.14 17:54:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 14/07/2004 17:59:02
Gah, I forgot, Shield upgrades kill applies only to power requirements of shield extenders....that's silly
|
Mikelangelo
|
Posted - 2004.07.14 17:54:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 14/07/2004 17:59:02
Gah, I forgot, Shield upgrades kill applies only to power requirements of shield extenders....that's silly
|
Hellek
|
Posted - 2004.07.14 18:48:00 -
[89]
For ships who got medslots and CPU en masse but not much cap or lowslots, shield extenders are useful and I have seen several scorps that use them so I think they are fine. Sure their high CPU demands are limiting their usefullness but they are far from useless.
|
Hellek
|
Posted - 2004.07.14 18:48:00 -
[90]
For ships who got medslots and CPU en masse but not much cap or lowslots, shield extenders are useful and I have seen several scorps that use them so I think they are fine. Sure their high CPU demands are limiting their usefullness but they are far from useless.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |