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Menath Zaro
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:29:00 -
[1]
Saw this posted by Aequitas Veritas in Tomb's Missile thread, think it deserves a discussion.
 Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Why is it supposed to be so much harder to fit Shield Extenders for shield tankers than it is for Armor tankers to fit Armor Reinforcers?
1600 mm Steel Plate
1600 HP
500 PG
30 CPU
Large Shield Extender I
1000 HP
400 PG
100 CPU
I mean, why so low PG on the Armor Reinforcer, and what is up with the CPU requirements of the Large Shield Extender, it makes it impossible to use along with say launchers, youll have troubles fitting one of them, not to mention trying to fit more of them... A XL shieldbooster is 200 CPU. With Standard Siege Launchers, those add up to be 371 CPU with Weapon Upgrades Level 5. How are you supposed to be able to fit them? And most importantly, why so easy to fit the armor reinforcers compared to the shield extenders?
Maybe you could introduce a skill that Reduces Shield Subsystem and Shield Upgrade Modules By 5%? Or simply reduce the CPU requirements down towards the Armor Reinforcer, so that their fitting requirements are in proportion. 50 CPU requirement and 400 PG vs 30 CPU and 500 pg. (Still easier to fit armor reinforcers)
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Menath Zaro
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:29:00 -
[2]
Saw this posted by Aequitas Veritas in Tomb's Missile thread, think it deserves a discussion.
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Why is it supposed to be so much harder to fit Shield Extenders for shield tankers than it is for Armor tankers to fit Armor Reinforcers?
1600 mm Steel Plate
1600 HP
500 PG
30 CPU
Large Shield Extender I
1000 HP
400 PG
100 CPU
I mean, why so low PG on the Armor Reinforcer, and what is up with the CPU requirements of the Large Shield Extender, it makes it impossible to use along with say launchers, youll have troubles fitting one of them, not to mention trying to fit more of them... A XL shieldbooster is 200 CPU. With Standard Siege Launchers, those add up to be 371 CPU with Weapon Upgrades Level 5. How are you supposed to be able to fit them? And most importantly, why so easy to fit the armor reinforcers compared to the shield extenders?
Maybe you could introduce a skill that Reduces Shield Subsystem and Shield Upgrade Modules By 5%? Or simply reduce the CPU requirements down towards the Armor Reinforcer, so that their fitting requirements are in proportion. 50 CPU requirement and 400 PG vs 30 CPU and 500 pg. (Still easier to fit armor reinforcers)
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crazychimp
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:37:00 -
[3]
Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
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crazychimp
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:37:00 -
[4]
Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 10/07/2004 22:49:27
Originally by: crazychimp
Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
But shouldnt that come from the higher HP bonus? Not from fitting requirement? Its almost impossible to fit this module, that the bonus to HP is ok, but you should still be able to fit the module. How many shield users use this? I dont know of any, but i know of plent who has plates fitted.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 10/07/2004 22:49:27
Originally by: crazychimp
Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
But shouldnt that come from the higher HP bonus? Not from fitting requirement? Its almost impossible to fit this module, that the bonus to HP is ok, but you should still be able to fit the module. How many shield users use this? I dont know of any, but i know of plent who has plates fitted.
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Nanya
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: crazychimp
Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
And shields are better to have - even when you lose them completely, you have still plenty of armor left :)
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Nanya
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: crazychimp
Ur missing a vital detail, the fact that plates slow ur ship to a crawl
And shields are better to have - even when you lose them completely, you have still plenty of armor left :)
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:48:00 -
[9]
Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:48:00 -
[10]
Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gariuys
Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid.
For a Raven(best CPU) its then 100/875 cpu.
For a Apoc its 1000/23000+
Then its out of proportion. I dont think that it should be harder to fit plates, but should be easier to fit the shield extenders as its close to impossible to fit them now.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gariuys
Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid.
For a Raven(best CPU) its then 100/875 cpu.
For a Apoc its 1000/23000+
Then its out of proportion. I dont think that it should be harder to fit plates, but should be easier to fit the shield extenders as its close to impossible to fit them now.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gariuys
Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid.
but shield tanks have not enough cpu for that module, hell 100 CPU its a lot 
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gariuys
Grid requirement on the plates could/should be higher, 1k grid or so. Shield tanks got CPU, armour tanks got grid.
but shield tanks have not enough cpu for that module, hell 100 CPU its a lot
Wanna fly with me?
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:56:00 -
[15]
Probably want to fit more than 1 as well when you want to increase your shield size instead of having boosting power. Like switch the AMP for a Extender etc...
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 22:56:00 -
[16]
Probably want to fit more than 1 as well when you want to increase your shield size instead of having boosting power. Like switch the AMP for a Extender etc...
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.07.10 23:22:00 -
[17]
Who uses armor/shield extenders
If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less...
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.07.10 23:22:00 -
[18]
Who uses armor/shield extenders
If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less...
________________________________________________________
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 23:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Meridius
Who uses armor/shield extenders
If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less...
Point is that they are modules that atm armortankers can benefit, but shield tankes cant due to the insane cpu requirements which adds up with launcher and shield booster insane cpu. And in certain situations they might be useful
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.10 23:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Meridius
Who uses armor/shield extenders
If you need them, your tank has failed. I guess they buy you some more time but personally i would rather put on more hardnening/cap recharge to make my repairers work less...
Point is that they are modules that atm armortankers can benefit, but shield tankes cant due to the insane cpu requirements which adds up with launcher and shield booster insane cpu. And in certain situations they might be useful
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.10 23:56:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left.
so making it easier for armortanks to add some HP can't hurt as the use of the item is very limited anyway.
the extra HP are just useful to warp out (as armor+structure are when shieldtanking) but not much more.
The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.10 23:56:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left.
so making it easier for armortanks to add some HP can't hurt as the use of the item is very limited anyway.
the extra HP are just useful to warp out (as armor+structure are when shieldtanking) but not much more.
The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
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Hamatitio
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Posted - 2004.07.11 00:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left.
I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields.
Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience.
--
Director of Ganking:
Death Row Inc. |
Hamatitio
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Posted - 2004.07.11 00:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left.
I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields.
Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience.
--
Director of Ganking:
Death Row Inc. |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.11 00:53:00 -
[25]
in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference.
also there is one important thing I forgot to say before:
Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec.
Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists).
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.11 00:53:00 -
[26]
in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference.
also there is one important thing I forgot to say before:
Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec.
Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists).
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 08:30:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:37:59
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:32:50
Originally by: Hamatitio
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left.
I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields.
Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience.
Got to agree with Hamatitio here. Its like a uber bad argument. As you still have to chew through the shield before you start loosing armor. So the amount of HP that our attacker has to kill is about the same. Once whatever you have hardened runs out of HP, armor is gone in secounds as well like Hamatitio said.
And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed.
Originally by: Hellek
in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference.
Point isn't that it's very useful module, that it's a type of module that only armortanks benefit from atm due to the fitting requirements. Armor Reinforcers give about twice as much HP as the shield ones does. That could be the bonus you get that "saves up" some HP so you can warp out. Hardly a argument that shield tankers shouldnt be able to use them.
Originally by: Hellek
also there is one important thing I forgot to say before:
Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec.
Very wrong. You got to get ur math straightened out m8.
Raven: 4800 base shield, 5834 shield with Shield Management lvl 4. 5 PDU2: 6825 shield (no warp cores on to secure warp out).
Recharger time: 2000s, 1629s with Shield Operation lvl4, with 5 PDU2: 1044,8sec.
So the equation is then: 6825shield/1045sec = 6,53 Shield/Sec
How wrong can you get Hellek?
Originally by: Hellek
Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists).
You have room for PDU's on most armor tanking ships. I use two on my Apoc. And I'd change my PDU for some Cap Relays anytime so I had enough cap to keep my XL booster running for more than one min, as thats about what i can do now before running out of cap. As long as you can use Cap Relay 2s (25%) and fill up your med slots with Tech 2 Cap Reachers (20%), which shield tankers can't cus they need those slots for Cap Rechare, you really really shouldnt complain about that. Raven cant fit anything without using Powerupgrading modules, it cant tank without fitting cap recharging modules and I dont dare to think how it must be for Dominix Pilots. But please stick to the topic of this thread, the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer. Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread.
Hellek: You seem to want this type of module to only be usable for armor tankers. I dont see how that helps balance the game at all. Rather you should be focusing on the bonuses these modules gives and balance that out so its fair, as long as you actually have an interest in having a fair game of course. I know you fly a Apoc and I like mine as well, but I dont see why you wont let shieldtankers have a module that is usable. Fitting it requires about 1/9th of a Raven's CPU, 2/15th (1/7,5th) of a Dominix's CPU, while the Armor Reinforcers use 1/46th of a Apocalypse's PG, roughly 1/40th of the Megathrons PG. Balanced you think? Hardly. The fitting requirements should be balanced and so should the bonuses, but atm its allmost impossible to fit the Shield Extenders, while fitting the Armor Reinforcers is very easy.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 08:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:37:59
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 08:32:50
Originally by: Hamatitio
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
I think its good that such items exist for armor tanks as you have only structure left after armor while shieldtanks have armor + structure left.
I hate it when people use this Excuse. Have you seen how fast a shield tankers armor melts? Too fast to even have any chance of warping out. It doesnt really make much of a difference, since the same argument could be used for armor tankers "saving cap" while still taking damage to their shields.
Thats just my opinion tho...and personal experience.
Got to agree with Hamatitio here. Its like a uber bad argument. As you still have to chew through the shield before you start loosing armor. So the amount of HP that our attacker has to kill is about the same. Once whatever you have hardened runs out of HP, armor is gone in secounds as well like Hamatitio said.
And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed.
Originally by: Hellek
in some situations true but also pretty well demonstrates that armor plates aren't too important as it (as you said) is gone very fast. on armor-tanked ships (with hardeners) it of course adds more time than on unhardened ships but also does not make much difference.
Point isn't that it's very useful module, that it's a type of module that only armortanks benefit from atm due to the fitting requirements. Armor Reinforcers give about twice as much HP as the shield ones does. That could be the bonus you get that "saves up" some HP so you can warp out. Hardly a argument that shield tankers shouldnt be able to use them.
Originally by: Hellek
also there is one important thing I forgot to say before:
Shields recharge and they do that a lot actually (on ships without bonus like tempest, with 5 plain normal T1 PDUs, about 15-20 HP per second), and extending the shields size also extends the recharged HP/sec.
Very wrong. You got to get ur math straightened out m8.
Raven: 4800 base shield, 5834 shield with Shield Management lvl 4. 5 PDU2: 6825 shield (no warp cores on to secure warp out).
Recharger time: 2000s, 1629s with Shield Operation lvl4, with 5 PDU2: 1044,8sec.
So the equation is then: 6825shield/1045sec = 6,53 Shield/Sec
How wrong can you get Hellek?
Originally by: Hellek
Besides that, shieldtanks have a very useful mod called Power Diagnostic Unit (PDU) which increases shield size and recharge, cap size and recharge and powergrid. For armor tanks there is no such allround mod (the counterpart would be a medslot mod which would give 5% CPU, and armor + cap bonus, but no such mod exists).
You have room for PDU's on most armor tanking ships. I use two on my Apoc. And I'd change my PDU for some Cap Relays anytime so I had enough cap to keep my XL booster running for more than one min, as thats about what i can do now before running out of cap. As long as you can use Cap Relay 2s (25%) and fill up your med slots with Tech 2 Cap Reachers (20%), which shield tankers can't cus they need those slots for Cap Rechare, you really really shouldnt complain about that. Raven cant fit anything without using Powerupgrading modules, it cant tank without fitting cap recharging modules and I dont dare to think how it must be for Dominix Pilots. But please stick to the topic of this thread, the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer. Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread.
Hellek: You seem to want this type of module to only be usable for armor tankers. I dont see how that helps balance the game at all. Rather you should be focusing on the bonuses these modules gives and balance that out so its fair, as long as you actually have an interest in having a fair game of course. I know you fly a Apoc and I like mine as well, but I dont see why you wont let shieldtankers have a module that is usable. Fitting it requires about 1/9th of a Raven's CPU, 2/15th (1/7,5th) of a Dominix's CPU, while the Armor Reinforcers use 1/46th of a Apocalypse's PG, roughly 1/40th of the Megathrons PG. Balanced you think? Hardly. The fitting requirements should be balanced and so should the bonuses, but atm its allmost impossible to fit the Shield Extenders, while fitting the Armor Reinforcers is very easy.
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Ethelie
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Posted - 2004.07.11 11:14:00 -
[29]
Well the armor will go down as faston a shield tank as the shield did on an armor tank so that is no excuse
There is no diffrence in HP on a Shield tanked or a Armor tanked ship
Its just that you have abit longer time to see your ship gets lost when you shield tank
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Ethelie
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Posted - 2004.07.11 11:14:00 -
[30]
Well the armor will go down as faston a shield tank as the shield did on an armor tank so that is no excuse
There is no diffrence in HP on a Shield tanked or a Armor tanked ship
Its just that you have abit longer time to see your ship gets lost when you shield tank
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.11 11:46:00 -
[31]
Quote:
And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed.
Same for armor-tanks which haven't any lowslots left either ...
Quote:
Got to agree with Hamatitio here. Its like a uber bad argument. As you still have to chew through the shield before you start loosing armor.
An unhardened shield is down very fast as there are missiles (EM) that do 100% damage, and lasers still do at least 90% damage (80% thermal, 100% EM), an unhardened armor is a lot more though as its lowest base resistance is 20% (10% for tempest).
Quote:
Very wrong. You got to get ur math straightened out m8.
Raven: 4800 base shield, 5834 shield with Shield Management lvl 4. 5 PDU2: 6825 shield (no warp cores on to secure warp out).
Recharger time: 2000s, 1629s with Shield Operation lvl4, with 5 PDU2: 1044,8sec.
So the equation is then: 6825shield/1045sec = 6,53 Shield/Sec
How wrong can you get Hellek?
Your calcs are simply plain wrong, try it ingame if you don't know the right formulas. The only thing that is right is the 6,8k shield size + 1k sec recharge, that's what I got as well, but the result is totally different.
Note that the lower the shield is, the faster it recharges, I tried it with a shield that was at ~30%
So don't accuse me of being wrong if you aren't right either.
Quote:
Fitting it requires about 1/9th of a Raven's CPU, 2/15th (1/7,5th) of a Dominix's CPU, while the Armor Reinforcers use 1/46th of a Apocalypse's PG, roughly 1/40th of the Megathrons PG. Balanced you think? Hardly. The fitting requirements should be balanced and so should the bonuses, but atm its allmost impossible to fit the Shield Extenders, while fitting the Armor Reinforcers is very easy.
You should not focus on the single module but also take into account which part of an Apoc's CPU the hardeners and the repairers take, etc.
It is 220/625 in a 5 slot tanking setup, thats more than a third, besides that slighty more than 4000 PG it needs.
Quote:
Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread.
You can't just look at armor plates and shield extenders, you have to look at the setups as a whole.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.11 11:46:00 -
[32]
Quote:
And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed.
Same for armor-tanks which haven't any lowslots left either ...
Quote:
Got to agree with Hamatitio here. Its like a uber bad argument. As you still have to chew through the shield before you start loosing armor.
An unhardened shield is down very fast as there are missiles (EM) that do 100% damage, and lasers still do at least 90% damage (80% thermal, 100% EM), an unhardened armor is a lot more though as its lowest base resistance is 20% (10% for tempest).
Quote:
Very wrong. You got to get ur math straightened out m8.
Raven: 4800 base shield, 5834 shield with Shield Management lvl 4. 5 PDU2: 6825 shield (no warp cores on to secure warp out).
Recharger time: 2000s, 1629s with Shield Operation lvl4, with 5 PDU2: 1044,8sec.
So the equation is then: 6825shield/1045sec = 6,53 Shield/Sec
How wrong can you get Hellek?
Your calcs are simply plain wrong, try it ingame if you don't know the right formulas. The only thing that is right is the 6,8k shield size + 1k sec recharge, that's what I got as well, but the result is totally different.
Note that the lower the shield is, the faster it recharges, I tried it with a shield that was at ~30%
So don't accuse me of being wrong if you aren't right either.
Quote:
Fitting it requires about 1/9th of a Raven's CPU, 2/15th (1/7,5th) of a Dominix's CPU, while the Armor Reinforcers use 1/46th of a Apocalypse's PG, roughly 1/40th of the Megathrons PG. Balanced you think? Hardly. The fitting requirements should be balanced and so should the bonuses, but atm its allmost impossible to fit the Shield Extenders, while fitting the Armor Reinforcers is very easy.
You should not focus on the single module but also take into account which part of an Apoc's CPU the hardeners and the repairers take, etc.
It is 220/625 in a 5 slot tanking setup, thats more than a third, besides that slighty more than 4000 PG it needs.
Quote:
Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread.
You can't just look at armor plates and shield extenders, you have to look at the setups as a whole.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 11:55:00 -
[33]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:00:27
@Ethiele
No, it's the same time in the end.
An armor tanker can repair more hitpoints per second and the ship is not exhausted so quickly like a shield tank. Everything because of the ridiculous high Cap Relay penalty that makes it impossible to use them on a shield tank and the better efficiency of armor repairers.
Apart from this, I'm at least able to dish out more damage in a Raven to make up for that.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 11:55:00 -
[34]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:00:27
@Ethiele
No, it's the same time in the end.
An armor tanker can repair more hitpoints per second and the ship is not exhausted so quickly like a shield tank. Everything because of the ridiculous high Cap Relay penalty that makes it impossible to use them on a shield tank and the better efficiency of armor repairers.
Apart from this, I'm at least able to dish out more damage in a Raven to make up for that.
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Perforator
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:07:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Perforator on 11/07/2004 12:09:06
Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:00:27
@Ethiele
No, it's the same time in the end.
An armor tanker can repair more hitpoints per second and the ship is not exhausted so quickly like a shield tank. Everything because of the ridiculous high Cap Relay penalty that makes it impossible to use them on a shield tank and the better efficiency of armor repairers.
Apart from this, I'm at least able to dish out more damage in a Raven to make up for that.
I want to end the myth that armor tankers can repair vastly more hitpoints per second:
XL shield booster: 80/sec, 1 shield/cap
L armor repairer with level 5 repair systems: 53.3/sec, 1.5 armor/cap
XL shield booster with amp: 104/sec, 1.3 shield/cap
2 L armor repairers: 106.66/sec, 1.5 armor/cap
Not to mention that the armor repairer actually repairs at the end of it's cycle but takes cap at the start of the cycle.
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Perforator
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:07:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Perforator on 11/07/2004 12:09:06
Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:00:27
@Ethiele
No, it's the same time in the end.
An armor tanker can repair more hitpoints per second and the ship is not exhausted so quickly like a shield tank. Everything because of the ridiculous high Cap Relay penalty that makes it impossible to use them on a shield tank and the better efficiency of armor repairers.
Apart from this, I'm at least able to dish out more damage in a Raven to make up for that.
I want to end the myth that armor tankers can repair vastly more hitpoints per second:
XL shield booster: 80/sec, 1 shield/cap
L armor repairer with level 5 repair systems: 53.3/sec, 1.5 armor/cap
XL shield booster with amp: 104/sec, 1.3 shield/cap
2 L armor repairers: 106.66/sec, 1.5 armor/cap
Not to mention that the armor repairer actually repairs at the end of it's cycle but takes cap at the start of the cycle.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:14:00 -
[37]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:17:18
You forgot to compare named stuff. Armor tankers have also usually overall higher resistances.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:14:00 -
[38]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:17:18
You forgot to compare named stuff. Armor tankers have also usually overall higher resistances.
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:19:00 -
[39]
Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:17:18
You forgot to compare named stuff. Armor tankers have also usually overall higher resistances.
DAMNIT!!!! NERF NERF NERF!!!!!!!!!! NERF NERF NERF!!!!
I CALL FOR BALANCE!!!!
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:17:18
You forgot to compare named stuff. Armor tankers have also usually overall higher resistances.
DAMNIT!!!! NERF NERF NERF!!!!!!!!!! NERF NERF NERF!!!!
I CALL FOR BALANCE!!!!
................. |
Perforator
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:20:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Perforator on 11/07/2004 12:21:16
Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:17:18
You forgot to compare named stuff. Armor tankers have also usually overall higher resistances.
Right, just to make you look stupid I will compare named stuff:
XL C5-L: 96/sec
Large accom: 64/sec
XL C5-L with amp: 124.8/sec
2x Large accom: 128/sec
And this is without the natural recharge of shield
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Perforator
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:20:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Perforator on 11/07/2004 12:21:16
Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:17:18
You forgot to compare named stuff. Armor tankers have also usually overall higher resistances.
Right, just to make you look stupid I will compare named stuff:
XL C5-L: 96/sec
Large accom: 64/sec
XL C5-L with amp: 124.8/sec
2x Large accom: 128/sec
And this is without the natural recharge of shield
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:24:20
Natural recharge of the shield, hmm you can add 5 to 6 hp per second there.
Armor tankers are still better at this point, they have higher resistances thus repair more effective hitpoints for even significantly less cap.
Beside this, they can use Cap Rechargers and Relays which shield tankers can not.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:21:00 -
[44]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:24:20
Natural recharge of the shield, hmm you can add 5 to 6 hp per second there.
Armor tankers are still better at this point, they have higher resistances thus repair more effective hitpoints for even significantly less cap.
Beside this, they can use Cap Rechargers and Relays which shield tankers can not.
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:30:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Cruz on 11/07/2004 12:35:27
Large Shield booster II = 60 hp/sec
Large Armor Repairer II = 71 hp/sec
2x Large Shield Booster II + Shield Amp = 156 hp/sec
2x Large Armor Repairer II = 142 hp /sec
and the 2x Large Shield boosters = 1.95hp/cap
2x Large Armor Repairers = 2hp/cap
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:30:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Cruz on 11/07/2004 12:35:27
Large Shield booster II = 60 hp/sec
Large Armor Repairer II = 71 hp/sec
2x Large Shield Booster II + Shield Amp = 156 hp/sec
2x Large Armor Repairer II = 142 hp /sec
and the 2x Large Shield boosters = 1.95hp/cap
2x Large Armor Repairers = 2hp/cap
................. |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:41:00 -
[47]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:44:07
Oh thanks, that's interesting. But you didn't count in Repair systems, did you?
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:41:00 -
[48]
Edited by: JoCool on 11/07/2004 12:44:07
Oh thanks, that's interesting. But you didn't count in Repair systems, did you?
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:48:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Cruz on 11/07/2004 12:49:59
For the large Armor Repairer II I did. I counted in Repair Systems V
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.11 12:48:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cruz on 11/07/2004 12:49:59
For the large Armor Repairer II I did. I counted in Repair Systems V
................. |
Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 13:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Hellek
Quote:
And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed.
Same for armor-tanks which haven't any lowslots left either ...
Erm.... What armortanking ship only has 5 lowslots? As Far as I know. Apoc has 7 slots, Arma got 8 slots, Typhoon got 7 slots and Mega got 7 slots? So can fit two or three other modules next to that of armortank setup.
Originally by: Hellek
Your calcs are simply plain wrong, try it ingame if you don't know the right formulas. The only thing that is right is the 6,8k shield size + 1k sec recharge, that's what I got as well, but the result is totally different.
Note that the lower the shield is, the faster it recharges, I tried it with a shield that was at ~30%
So don't accuse me of being wrong if you aren't right either.
As far as i knew, sheild recharges at a steady state and with a bellshaped curve. Discussed that with other ppl as well, if I'm wrong then you'll have to have me excused. Ill get this tested at some point myself.
This has NO relevance to the fittingrequirements though, but more towards what bonus the shield extenders should have. Best tech one armour reiforcer gives 2240 Armor, while best Shield Extender gives 1200. So that should be covered right there. NOT a fittingrequirement balance issue though.
Originally by: Hellek
You should not focus on the single module but also take into account which part of an Apoc's CPU the hardeners and the repairers take, etc.
It is 220/625 in a 5 slot tanking setup, thats more than a third, besides that slighty more than 4000 PG it needs.
Sheild tank: 200 cpu booster, 120 hardeners, 50 amp = 370/875=42% - Not to mention that Siege launchers takes the most CPU of all weapons and powerdiags use a lot of cpu as well. And the Raven has PG issue as well with most setups now, which a Apoc doesnt.
I have no cpu issues at all on my Apoc, which I armortank and run 6 megabeams and two Malkuth Siege Launchers on it. So by fitting the malkuth sieges which arent that expensive, i can run 8 bs weapons on it and run 24/7 tanking. But it has no relevance though, now youre talkign about shield vs armor tanknig again, and this is a thread of balancing the fitting requirements, not how the modules fit into the tanknig setups. And i honestly thing those bonuses are pretty balanced as they are now, while the fitting reqs are waaay out of balance. You simply cant fit them at all...
I wonder why you cant you see that its so much easier to fit a Armor Reinforer than it is for a shield tanker to fit Shield Extenders?
Originally by: Hellek
Quote:
Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread.
You can't just look at armor plates and shield extenders, you have to look at the setups as a whole.
Well... If you want that, then please tell me why it should be like this? Give me like one good argument why its unbalanced that shield tankers can fit shield extenders. Fitting them means dropping another shield tanking module liek the amp or a cap recharger anyway. And it is incredibly harder to fit Shield Extenders than Armor Reinforcers.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 13:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hellek
Quote:
And Hellek, a Raven cant warp out if its shield tanking cus it has to use all his low slots with PDU's to be able to tank. So if whatever ship its facing has a warp scrambler and his tank fails, hes screwed.
Same for armor-tanks which haven't any lowslots left either ...
Erm.... What armortanking ship only has 5 lowslots? As Far as I know. Apoc has 7 slots, Arma got 8 slots, Typhoon got 7 slots and Mega got 7 slots? So can fit two or three other modules next to that of armortank setup.
Originally by: Hellek
Your calcs are simply plain wrong, try it ingame if you don't know the right formulas. The only thing that is right is the 6,8k shield size + 1k sec recharge, that's what I got as well, but the result is totally different.
Note that the lower the shield is, the faster it recharges, I tried it with a shield that was at ~30%
So don't accuse me of being wrong if you aren't right either.
As far as i knew, sheild recharges at a steady state and with a bellshaped curve. Discussed that with other ppl as well, if I'm wrong then you'll have to have me excused. Ill get this tested at some point myself.
This has NO relevance to the fittingrequirements though, but more towards what bonus the shield extenders should have. Best tech one armour reiforcer gives 2240 Armor, while best Shield Extender gives 1200. So that should be covered right there. NOT a fittingrequirement balance issue though.
Originally by: Hellek
You should not focus on the single module but also take into account which part of an Apoc's CPU the hardeners and the repairers take, etc.
It is 220/625 in a 5 slot tanking setup, thats more than a third, besides that slighty more than 4000 PG it needs.
Sheild tank: 200 cpu booster, 120 hardeners, 50 amp = 370/875=42% - Not to mention that Siege launchers takes the most CPU of all weapons and powerdiags use a lot of cpu as well. And the Raven has PG issue as well with most setups now, which a Apoc doesnt.
I have no cpu issues at all on my Apoc, which I armortank and run 6 megabeams and two Malkuth Siege Launchers on it. So by fitting the malkuth sieges which arent that expensive, i can run 8 bs weapons on it and run 24/7 tanking. But it has no relevance though, now youre talkign about shield vs armor tanknig again, and this is a thread of balancing the fitting requirements, not how the modules fit into the tanknig setups. And i honestly thing those bonuses are pretty balanced as they are now, while the fitting reqs are waaay out of balance. You simply cant fit them at all...
I wonder why you cant you see that its so much easier to fit a Armor Reinforer than it is for a shield tanker to fit Shield Extenders?
Originally by: Hellek
Quote:
Dont make it a Shield Tanking vs Armor Tanking thread.
You can't just look at armor plates and shield extenders, you have to look at the setups as a whole.
Well... If you want that, then please tell me why it should be like this? Give me like one good argument why its unbalanced that shield tankers can fit shield extenders. Fitting them means dropping another shield tanking module liek the amp or a cap recharger anyway. And it is incredibly harder to fit Shield Extenders than Armor Reinforcers.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 13:45:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 13:47:45
Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 11/07/2004 12:35:27
Large Shield booster II = 60 hp/sec
Large Armor Repairer II = 71 hp/sec
2x Large Shield Booster II + Shield Amp = 156 hp/sec
2x Large Armor Repairer II = 142 hp /sec
and the 2x Large Shield boosters = 1.95hp/cap
2x Large Armor Repairers = 2hp/cap
You are comparing the use of 3 slots toward 2 which is wrong. You have to compare 1x Large Shield booster II + shield amp, to the use of two large armor repairers.
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 13:45:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 11/07/2004 13:47:45
Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 11/07/2004 12:35:27
Large Shield booster II = 60 hp/sec
Large Armor Repairer II = 71 hp/sec
2x Large Shield Booster II + Shield Amp = 156 hp/sec
2x Large Armor Repairer II = 142 hp /sec
and the 2x Large Shield boosters = 1.95hp/cap
2x Large Armor Repairers = 2hp/cap
You are comparing the use of 3 slots toward 2 which is wrong. You have to compare 1x Large Shield booster II + shield amp, to the use of two large armor repairers.
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
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Bubba1977
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Posted - 2004.07.11 15:36:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
FYI, named armor hardeners do exist and are actually quite good. I had a true sanshas kinetic hardener, 20 cpu and 55% hardening....sold it for 16 mil.
__________________________________________________
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Bubba1977
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Posted - 2004.07.11 15:36:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
FYI, named armor hardeners do exist and are actually quite good. I had a true sanshas kinetic hardener, 20 cpu and 55% hardening....sold it for 16 mil.
__________________________________________________
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Perforator
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Posted - 2004.07.11 17:00:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Perforator on 11/07/2004 17:01:07
Originally by: Bubba1977
FYI, named armor hardeners do exist and are actually quite good. I had a true sanshas kinetic hardener, 20 cpu and 55% hardening....sold it for 16 mil.
True, but those are rare faction loot and also have shield counterparts.
There is no armor equivalent of the "normal" named shield hardeners like ditrigonal thermal barrier, anointed EM ward etc.
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Perforator
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Posted - 2004.07.11 17:00:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Perforator on 11/07/2004 17:01:07
Originally by: Bubba1977
FYI, named armor hardeners do exist and are actually quite good. I had a true sanshas kinetic hardener, 20 cpu and 55% hardening....sold it for 16 mil.
True, but those are rare faction loot and also have shield counterparts.
There is no armor equivalent of the "normal" named shield hardeners like ditrigonal thermal barrier, anointed EM ward etc.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.07.11 22:14:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Meridius on 11/07/2004 22:15:26
Originally by: Bubba1977
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
FYI, named armor hardeners do exist and are actually quite good. I had a true sanshas kinetic hardener, 20 cpu and 55% hardening....sold it for 16 mil.
These items are ultra-rare and super expensive. Named shield hardners are cheap and u can find them easy off rats and such.
You just can't bring faction loot into this...
________________________________________________________
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.07.11 22:14:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Meridius on 11/07/2004 22:15:26
Originally by: Bubba1977
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 10/07/2004 23:58:34
The important items are hardeners and repairers/boosters, and in that case, armor tanks have the drawback that their hardeners use as much CPU as shield hardeners and that no named version of those exist.
FYI, named armor hardeners do exist and are actually quite good. I had a true sanshas kinetic hardener, 20 cpu and 55% hardening....sold it for 16 mil.
These items are ultra-rare and super expensive. Named shield hardners are cheap and u can find them easy off rats and such.
You just can't bring faction loot into this...
________________________________________________________
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 22:26:00 -
[61]
We all know about the hardeners, and thats a valid point. I think those should be brought into the game. But, armor tankers do benefit from the higher natural resistance, so they got something else instead.
Anyway, hardeners have rather little to do with the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer issue. So please try and discuss that.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.11 22:26:00 -
[62]
We all know about the hardeners, and thats a valid point. I think those should be brought into the game. But, armor tankers do benefit from the higher natural resistance, so they got something else instead.
Anyway, hardeners have rather little to do with the Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcer issue. So please try and discuss that.
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Zenst
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Posted - 2004.07.12 02:46:00 -
[63]
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion. Though in comparison to say blackbird with medium shield extenders, I find not only can you fit more, but on balance from the gain in respect to the base shields I get a better value fit. Had a blackbird with more shields than a scorp 8), and you can imagine the natural recharge rate. Doing the same approach on a scorpion is not as easy, though I only have level 4 shield upgrades. In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable. Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shieldÆs better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version. I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
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Zenst
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Posted - 2004.07.12 02:46:00 -
[64]
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion. Though in comparison to say blackbird with medium shield extenders, I find not only can you fit more, but on balance from the gain in respect to the base shields I get a better value fit. Had a blackbird with more shields than a scorp 8), and you can imagine the natural recharge rate. Doing the same approach on a scorpion is not as easy, though I only have level 4 shield upgrades. In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable. Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shieldÆs better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version. I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.12 06:38:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Zenst
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion.
Shield Upgrades reduce the PG requirement, which isnt the problem. Problem is the 100 in CPU req.
Originally by: zenst
In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable.
Yes, I find the plates and extenders bonuses to be fairly balanced when you take all these factors into concideration. Though I think the fittinq reqs are out of balanace, simply as you can really fit extenders on shield tankers, no cpu.
Quote:
Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shield’s better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version.
Those Scorps wouldnt have much of offensive capabilities in the form of EW or in firepower doing it that way. So seems like a fair switch doesnt it?
Originally by: Zenst
I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
Id like a Large SB that boosts as much and uses as little cap as the large armor repairer. Then maybe shield tanks could tank 24/7 as well :) But can only hope :)
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.12 06:38:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Zenst
Shield extenders gain from the Shield Upgrades skill which reduces its fittings and as there mid slot would indeed be more suited to a raven or scorpion.
Shield Upgrades reduce the PG requirement, which isnt the problem. Problem is the 100 in CPU req.
Originally by: zenst
In comparison to plates, whilst they offer per slot less direct gain, you must factor in the increase in natural shield recharge rate (none on armour) as you would having a larger capacitor (again another mod that works well on cruisers and as a medium module than the large editions on battleships). You also have to factor in the reduction in speed, which is very noticeable.
Yes, I find the plates and extenders bonuses to be fairly balanced when you take all these factors into concideration. Though I think the fittinq reqs are out of balanace, simply as you can really fit extenders on shield tankers, no cpu.
Quote:
Personally I'd rather stick another resist in than a plate, but plates do have there moments, as do shield extenders. Take two scorpions, fit hardeners/few shield extenders and both have couple of medium T2 shield transfers, with the extenders you have a rather nice large buffer and can boost each others shield’s better than you can do yourself. Can you do that with armour as easily, not even when repair drones come into play will it be as effective/easy to achieve the same effect and gain from the large shield/armour size you have. I've not even seen a T2 armour plate yet, seen loads of named ones, and is the 1600 plate BPO out let alone a sniff of a T2 version.
Those Scorps wouldnt have much of offensive capabilities in the form of EW or in firepower doing it that way. So seems like a fair switch doesnt it?
Originally by: Zenst
I would also like an XL armour repair in keeping with shield booster, but can but hope.
Id like a Large SB that boosts as much and uses as little cap as the large armor repairer. Then maybe shield tanks could tank 24/7 as well :) But can only hope :)
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Drusilla
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:43:00 -
[67]
One point, folks -
Even without any gear aboard to affect it eventually your shield goes all the way back to full all by itself. Armor requires either modules or money to repair.
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Drusilla
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:43:00 -
[68]
One point, folks -
Even without any gear aboard to affect it eventually your shield goes all the way back to full all by itself. Armor requires either modules or money to repair.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:31:00 -
[69]
With 5 PDU fitted, its actually even about 15HP per second when shield is low. Thats about 15% of what a namd (neutron) XL SB boosts per second, and its all the time, without any cap use.
And one thing nobody mentioned so far: shield is increased by up to 10% by the gang skill "escort tactics", if operating in a gang. there is no such skill for armor.
So really no reason why any shield mods would need a boost or why armor mods would need a nerf.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:31:00 -
[70]
With 5 PDU fitted, its actually even about 15HP per second when shield is low. Thats about 15% of what a namd (neutron) XL SB boosts per second, and its all the time, without any cap use.
And one thing nobody mentioned so far: shield is increased by up to 10% by the gang skill "escort tactics", if operating in a gang. there is no such skill for armor.
So really no reason why any shield mods would need a boost or why armor mods would need a nerf.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:56:00 -
[71]
Hellek, im not asknig for the shield extenders to get a boost. there is a reason why it has half the HP bonus than the armor plates, and that is for the above mentioned reasons, shield recharge, skills that increase the bonus and so on.
Extenders and Reinforcers are modules that are there to be a buffer before you go down, so you can absorb more damage when your boosting/repairing modules cant keep up with the damage. So the amount of HP they give is the heaviest weighing factor with them. The little extra recharge you get from increasing your shield size with a extender doesnt make up for the fact that the modules are unfitable and end up being half the buffer of the Armor Reinforcers (maybe 1/3 then when you concider all skills etc).
What im asking is for the fitting reqs to be more balanced. atm it is impossible to use them due to that insane cpu need. there is a reason why a lot of ppl fly aroudn with plates and noone uses shiled extenders. If you ask yourself youll see that you know of a bunch of ppl that from time to time fits Armor Reinforcers and basically none that fits shield extenders. Can also do the easy math and see why Tungsten Armor Plates sells for 10mio pluss, but the best Shield extender you can pick up for 1 or 2 million depending on luck. Tech 2 Shield Extenders are sold for 3 million.
And I still cant believe that you think that the modules fitting requirment are balanced? That the bonuses they give are, I'll totally go for, but not the fitting requirements. They are hidiously unbalanced
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:56:00 -
[72]
Hellek, im not asknig for the shield extenders to get a boost. there is a reason why it has half the HP bonus than the armor plates, and that is for the above mentioned reasons, shield recharge, skills that increase the bonus and so on.
Extenders and Reinforcers are modules that are there to be a buffer before you go down, so you can absorb more damage when your boosting/repairing modules cant keep up with the damage. So the amount of HP they give is the heaviest weighing factor with them. The little extra recharge you get from increasing your shield size with a extender doesnt make up for the fact that the modules are unfitable and end up being half the buffer of the Armor Reinforcers (maybe 1/3 then when you concider all skills etc).
What im asking is for the fitting reqs to be more balanced. atm it is impossible to use them due to that insane cpu need. there is a reason why a lot of ppl fly aroudn with plates and noone uses shiled extenders. If you ask yourself youll see that you know of a bunch of ppl that from time to time fits Armor Reinforcers and basically none that fits shield extenders. Can also do the easy math and see why Tungsten Armor Plates sells for 10mio pluss, but the best Shield extender you can pick up for 1 or 2 million depending on luck. Tech 2 Shield Extenders are sold for 3 million.
And I still cant believe that you think that the modules fitting requirment are balanced? That the bonuses they give are, I'll totally go for, but not the fitting requirements. They are hidiously unbalanced
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:59:00 -
[73]
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:59:00 -
[74]
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:27:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ithildin
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
Original question was if the fitting requirements are balance: Shield Extender - 400pg & 100 CPU vs Armor Reinforcers - 500pg & 30 CPU
The bonuses themselves I never thought were out of balance.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:27:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ithildin
Original questions answer: the shield benefit from Shield Recharge Rate, which armour does not. Therefore shield boosting is slightly weaker than armour boosting modules.
Whether Shield Recharge Rate is good or not is another issue.
Original question was if the fitting requirements are balance: Shield Extender - 400pg & 100 CPU vs Armor Reinforcers - 500pg & 30 CPU
The bonuses themselves I never thought were out of balance.
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Tango612
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:00:00 -
[77]
They use far too much CPU to make them useful really.
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Tango612
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:00:00 -
[78]
They use far too much CPU to make them useful really.
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Bigby
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:17:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced 
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Bigby
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:17:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced
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Menath Zaro
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Posted - 2004.07.13 19:22:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Bigby
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced
Actually I think the reason so few actually discussed it just points points out how few care about this module. Its so useless that noone really have used it or think it will be useful. But it has its spotlight buying ppl time, just like the armor reinforcer. And problem is as Aequitas was trying to say; the fitting requirements of the shield one is so enormous that noone can use them on top of all the launcher, shield booster and hardeners, 100 cpu means its only beaten by Shield Boosters. Its a module to buy you time before you crash and burn, it shouldnt be impossible to fit it. Particulary when the Armor Reinforcer is a joke to fit.
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Menath Zaro
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Posted - 2004.07.13 19:22:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Bigby
Edited by: Bigby on 12/07/2004 23:07:42
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
This is turning into a shield vs armor tanknig thread. Those are really fairly balanced if you look at it. The Shield Extender vs Armor Reinforcers fitting requirements are not.
I think that the fact that people are willing to argue this to the deah time and again show's they are fairly well balanced
Actually I think the reason so few actually discussed it just points points out how few care about this module. Its so useless that noone really have used it or think it will be useful. But it has its spotlight buying ppl time, just like the armor reinforcer. And problem is as Aequitas was trying to say; the fitting requirements of the shield one is so enormous that noone can use them on top of all the launcher, shield booster and hardeners, 100 cpu means its only beaten by Shield Boosters. Its a module to buy you time before you crash and burn, it shouldnt be impossible to fit it. Particulary when the Armor Reinforcer is a joke to fit.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.13 19:25:00 -
[83]
Agreed, they're a waste of a med slot, less cpu won't change that, but bringing the two options more inline fitting wise might be a idea for those that like em.
Armour plates are used cause well, buying time is a lot more important when your health cycles in 11-15 seconds.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.13 19:25:00 -
[84]
Agreed, they're a waste of a med slot, less cpu won't change that, but bringing the two options more inline fitting wise might be a idea for those that like em.
Armour plates are used cause well, buying time is a lot more important when your health cycles in 11-15 seconds.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
John Blackthorn
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Posted - 2004.07.14 17:23:00 -
[85]
What an Interesting Topic.
As a Raven/Scorp pilot I have always wondered why the cpu requirements of the shield extenders were so high. I belive if the extenders were halfed it would very even to armor tanking.
Issue is that cpu being the limited factor to shield tanking and all of the modules that are used on raven/scorps are cpu intensive it limits the diversity of how the ships are setup.
Consider this... basic 1600mm plates give you 1600 armor for 500 grid. But 100 cpu give you 1000 shields.
500 grid from a ammar ship is 1/12 of its grid, but 100 cpu of a raven is 1/6 of it's cpu.
-BT
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John Blackthorn
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Posted - 2004.07.14 17:23:00 -
[86]
What an Interesting Topic.
As a Raven/Scorp pilot I have always wondered why the cpu requirements of the shield extenders were so high. I belive if the extenders were halfed it would very even to armor tanking.
Issue is that cpu being the limited factor to shield tanking and all of the modules that are used on raven/scorps are cpu intensive it limits the diversity of how the ships are setup.
Consider this... basic 1600mm plates give you 1600 armor for 500 grid. But 100 cpu give you 1000 shields.
500 grid from a ammar ship is 1/12 of its grid, but 100 cpu of a raven is 1/6 of it's cpu.
-BT
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.14 17:54:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 14/07/2004 17:59:02
Gah, I forgot, Shield upgrades kill applies only to power requirements of shield extenders....that's silly
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.14 17:54:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 14/07/2004 17:59:02
Gah, I forgot, Shield upgrades kill applies only to power requirements of shield extenders....that's silly
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.14 18:48:00 -
[89]
For ships who got medslots and CPU en masse but not much cap or lowslots, shield extenders are useful and I have seen several scorps that use them so I think they are fine. Sure their high CPU demands are limiting their usefullness but they are far from useless.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.14 18:48:00 -
[90]
For ships who got medslots and CPU en masse but not much cap or lowslots, shield extenders are useful and I have seen several scorps that use them so I think they are fine. Sure their high CPU demands are limiting their usefullness but they are far from useless.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.07.14 18:49:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Mikelangelo
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 14/07/2004 17:59:02
Gah, I forgot, Shield upgrades kill applies only to power requirements of shield extenders....that's silly
Yeah, but it's the only one (to my knowledge) that decrease power requirement instead of CPU requirement. That in itself is rather neat.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.07.14 18:49:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Mikelangelo
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 14/07/2004 17:59:02
Gah, I forgot, Shield upgrades kill applies only to power requirements of shield extenders....that's silly
Yeah, but it's the only one (to my knowledge) that decrease power requirement instead of CPU requirement. That in itself is rather neat.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.14 18:57:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 14/07/2004 19:00:09
Originally by: Hellek
For ships who got medslots and CPU en masse but not much cap or lowslots, shield extenders are useful and I have seen several scorps that use them so I think they are fine. Sure their high CPU demands are limiting their usefullness but they are far from useless.
Well, for scorp using htem the CPU wont be the limiting factor almost regarldess of how you fit it. On a Raven on the other hand, fitting them in nearly impossible as they are now, and what about fitting them on a dominix? So fine, it can be used on scorps but no other shield tanker with its current cpu demand.
And it still doesnt justify that its so easy to fit the Armor Reinforcers compared to the SE. All armor tanknig ships can fit AR, only the scorp can fit the SE. Fitting reqs are very unbalanced, can you argue against that?
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.07.14 18:57:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 14/07/2004 19:00:09
Originally by: Hellek
For ships who got medslots and CPU en masse but not much cap or lowslots, shield extenders are useful and I have seen several scorps that use them so I think they are fine. Sure their high CPU demands are limiting their usefullness but they are far from useless.
Well, for scorp using htem the CPU wont be the limiting factor almost regarldess of how you fit it. On a Raven on the other hand, fitting them in nearly impossible as they are now, and what about fitting them on a dominix? So fine, it can be used on scorps but no other shield tanker with its current cpu demand.
And it still doesnt justify that its so easy to fit the Armor Reinforcers compared to the SE. All armor tanknig ships can fit AR, only the scorp can fit the SE. Fitting reqs are very unbalanced, can you argue against that?
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.07.14 19:27:00 -
[95]
Tell you what. I'll vote for shield extenders to be brought in line with armor plate if we add to that vote the release of blueprints for the steel armor plate.
Otherwise we're comparing a loot-dropped item to an item that anyone can make, so saying the loot-dropped one is unjustly easier to fit for the effect isn't on IMHO.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.07.14 19:27:00 -
[96]
Tell you what. I'll vote for shield extenders to be brought in line with armor plate if we add to that vote the release of blueprints for the steel armor plate.
Otherwise we're comparing a loot-dropped item to an item that anyone can make, so saying the loot-dropped one is unjustly easier to fit for the effect isn't on IMHO.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Kinnison
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Posted - 2004.07.16 09:26:00 -
[97]
hmmm - as CPU appears to be the main problem for shield extenders, I'll have to look into putting one on my indy.  
What's the PG requirement for small and medium shield extenders, anyone?
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Kinnison
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Posted - 2004.07.16 09:26:00 -
[98]
hmmm - as CPU appears to be the main problem for shield extenders, I'll have to look into putting one on my indy.
What's the PG requirement for small and medium shield extenders, anyone?
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Kerr AVON
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Posted - 2004.07.17 12:55:00 -
[99]
I've found that using a Large Shield Extender on my Thorax is very useful on agent kill missions, and in certain situations fairly useful for npc rat hunting.
Assuming you're weird like me and like to shield tank a Thorax 
_____________________
Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself
Combat Your 250mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Blood Arch Engraver, wrecking for 737.7 damage. |
Kerr AVON
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Posted - 2004.07.17 12:55:00 -
[100]
I've found that using a Large Shield Extender on my Thorax is very useful on agent kill missions, and in certain situations fairly useful for npc rat hunting.
Assuming you're weird like me and like to shield tank a Thorax
_____________________
Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself
Combat Your 250mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Blood Arch Engraver, wrecking for 737.7 damage. |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.17 14:02:00 -
[101]
Edited by: JoCool on 17/07/2004 14:05:17
So you try to shield tank your Thorax with using two medslots only? That's anything but tanking.
Fitting requirements are unbalanced, I think SE should have 250mw and 50tf requirements for them to become a real consideration to use as a medslot item.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.07.17 14:02:00 -
[102]
Edited by: JoCool on 17/07/2004 14:05:17
So you try to shield tank your Thorax with using two medslots only? That's anything but tanking.
Fitting requirements are unbalanced, I think SE should have 250mw and 50tf requirements for them to become a real consideration to use as a medslot item.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.07.17 14:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: JoCool
Fitting requirements are unbalanced, I think SE should have 250mw and 50tf requirements for them to become a real consideration to use as a medslot item.
I hope you're not talking about large shield extenders?
A cruiser could fit 4 of those -> Moa with 1200+4000 shield and 4 diags -> 7604hp with shield management 5...
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.07.17 14:15:00 -
[104]
Originally by: JoCool
Fitting requirements are unbalanced, I think SE should have 250mw and 50tf requirements for them to become a real consideration to use as a medslot item.
I hope you're not talking about large shield extenders?
A cruiser could fit 4 of those -> Moa with 1200+4000 shield and 4 diags -> 7604hp with shield management 5...
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.07.17 14:42:00 -
[105]
It couldn't fit much else tough. Keep in mind that these would half the fitting reqs, and atm, not even a raven can fit a single L shield extender without gimping your setup. |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.07.17 14:42:00 -
[106]
It couldn't fit much else tough. Keep in mind that these would half the fitting reqs, and atm, not even a raven can fit a single L shield extender without gimping your setup. |
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