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Zostera
Minmatar
Domination.
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.12.11 03:30:00 -
[61]
As a new(ish)player that has lived in 0.0 from day 5 of trial I can honestly say that there is currently a "skill up as you play" system.
Every moment flown in 0.0 is a learning experience, and develops my awareness of threat, risk and means to counter them. Skills and experience are never simply a game mechanic. Sure enough every now and again you get a new toy, but the good sense to use it correctly can never be developed through points.
EvE already has enough grind, isk for ship losses and skills and fittings and etc, loyalty points for more. Adding another "reward" element that encourages grind would not be good.
Slow down, immerse yourself, and enjoy learning to fly what you have. EvE is a steadily paced game, I very much enjoy it for that.
And, if you are bored running missions, take a risk, get out to 0.0 and join in the fun.
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Nick Domani
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Posted - 2008.12.11 04:07:00 -
[62]
I think I'm going to have to invoke Samir Nagheenanajar here:
"Yes, this is horrible, this idea."
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Belmarduk
Amarr
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.12.11 04:22:00 -
[63]
NO
The skill-system is fine as it is - Only thing missind is a back-up skill-queue.
Mainchar:
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.11 04:23:00 -
[64]
This was actually the original system of EVE's skill training, allowing both the time lapse and usage of the skills mentioned to increase their respective SP count.
It lead to massive abuse early on and was basically removed and replaced with the current system we have now.
So no.
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 05:53:00 -
[65]
My specific details do not allow for abuse.
The details are everything.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.12.11 10:03:00 -
[66]
Needlessly complicated, completely contrary to the core concept of EVE, doesn't really add anything at all to the game and makes active play basically mandatory for fast progression... basically a huge thumbs down.
If you want SP for actions, get enough ISK and buy an older character.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Bastaardicious
Enrave
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.11 13:34:00 -
[67]
That idea is lame, that would make EVE like WOW. The way of skilling in EVE is what makes it so different from other MMO's.
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Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari
Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.11 13:37:00 -
[68]
No way... the skill system is one of the very nice done mechanics in Eve that makes Eve unique after all..
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Caphis
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Posted - 2008.12.11 13:44:00 -
[69]
no! go back to wow !
p.s. can i have ure stuff?
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 15:56:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO on 11/12/2008 16:00:55
Ok I'm sorry I was intentionally being mean in the last two posts but heh you stop caring as the approval rating goes down. 
Lets imagine that I'm eating an apple pie and its too runny.
I write a proposal to have the next pie be less runny.
It is a forum poster's nature to assume the worst possible implementation of this proposal.
OH HOLY CHRIST NO! DON'T MAKE IT LESS RUNNY, FFS I DON'T WANT TO EAT SANDPAPER I WANT TO EAT PIE!
Even if I included within the proposal specific details that would ensure the next pie would not be dry or like eating sandpaper, most forum posters wouldn't care or even bother to read that.
Even if I repeated and emboldened those details.
Even if I added a goal that specifically stated that I would not want the pie to resemble sandpaper, highlighted that statement in a different color, and underlined it, most forum posters would still ignore it, repeat their fellow man in having no desire to eat sandpaper, and tell me to go back to the desert.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Grigo
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.12.11 16:03:00 -
[71]
 Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Ok I'm sorry I was intentionally being mean in the last two posts but heh you stop caring as the approval rating goes down.
Lets imagine that I'm eating an apple pie and its too runny.
I write a proposal to have the next pie be less runny.
It is a forum poster's nature to assume the worst possible implementation of this proposal.
OH HOLY CHRIST NO! DON'T MAKE IT LESS RUNNY, FFS I DON'T WANT TO EAT SANDPAPER I WANT TO EAT PIE!
Even if I included within the proposal specific details that would ensure the next pie would not be dry or like eating sandpaper, most forum posters wouldn't care or even bother to read that. Even if I repeated and emboldened those details. Even if I added a goal that specifically stated that I would not want the pie to resemble sandpaper, highlighted that statement in a different color, and underlined it, most forum posters would still ignore it, repeat their fellow man in having no desire to eat sandpaper, and tell me to go back to the desert.
sorry about the alt fast reply(and the tiping errors i know il make..im on a tight reply)...RL stoped me from explaining furder
ok u propose basicly that what skills u use in pvp/pve be boosted wen u pop a ship...ether npc or player
now think of the problems this involves:
- traiders are screwed at this...miners are also
- imagine if i make a alt and pop 50 + ships every 10 min(pop a hauler full of frigs)...is that cool if i make 2* ure sp/h
- the general sp/h is around 2.5k/h ...now if a pilot gets in a titan and pops 100 bs fleet that will give him...10k(concidering 100 points/bs...thats about right concidering frig is 5 points)...that is a big boost i mite add...
also this will only make the powerfull more powerfull and the active "maniacs" count for more
Click here if you are Romanian. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.12.11 18:03:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
It is a forum poster's nature to assume the worst possible implementation of this proposal.
How should I put it in words that are not reinterpretable... no pilot should ever earn more SP/hour just because he's playing actively on that particular account//character. Not even one (1) extra SP per hour.
If you really want more SP, wait *or* buy a larger character (presonally, I somewhat dislike the fact selling characters is allowed, but meh, that's how it already is - if anything, I'd vote to ban character sales too, even if it would hurt me too).
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:42:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Akita T
Not even one (1) extra SP per hour.
Yeah I bet you'd quit eve if that happened.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Desparo
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:48:00 -
[74]
I personally would benefit if this would be implemented but I don't think it would be fair to others.
We already have to grind the game to earn isk to do anything. Doing it for SP as well would just create a much more imbalanced system for those who don't have the time to be on everyday.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.12.11 20:00:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Nick Domani
I think I'm going to have to invoke Samir Nagheenanajar here:
"Yes, this is horrible, this idea."
QFT.
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Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
FunzzeR
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.11 20:30:00 -
[76]
Edited by: FunzzeR on 11/12/2008 20:30:11
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Supporting the discussion on this topic, I think the intention is good but the solution needs work.
I've been thinking about this problem (I agree that it is a problem), but I haven't been able to come up with a solid solution yet either. We don't want grind and we don't want unemployed/basement kids getting advantages over everyone else. On the other hand it would be nice to see progression through play and, most importantly, skill. I like the get-skill-while-you-play systems (mining gives mining skill), but somehow the system should be dynamic enough not to be bottable. And if the skills are gained as prize of some competetive event, then the people with most skill already will likely win and get even more skill.
Just writing down what I'm thinking. I'd love to get around the table with some of CCPs gamedesigners and talk about this.
You realize that allowing skill points to be gained via players actions will open up a can of worms that might not be good for the game and cause further imbalances.
We already have the ongoing problem of isk sellers/macros, that problem could easilly widen with isk sellers offering powerleveling which is something commonly offered in other "grind for your xp" MMOs. So introducing such a system could be akin to boosting isk farmers and the RMT industry. There is too much potential for the system to be badly abused and exploited.
I suggest you think about it from all angles as a whole and not just what benefits one group....
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chatgris
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Posted - 2008.12.11 20:56:00 -
[77]
I am going to risk wading into this topic as a noob (SP wise). I've spent 4 months playing this game so far... I have been reading these forums a massive amount for strategies and tips, studied the skills, played with numerous fittings, made billions running missions (cause that's all I really have the skills to do) and you know what? That's all I can do for the next few months. No matter how much I know, I am still working on turret support skills, capacitor skills, T2 tanking skills (cause everyone has them), navigation, agility, fitting skills (adv weapon upgrades etc). I've still got two months to go to get the relevant skills to level 4, and no way I'll be able to use T2 weapons (which is many times cheaper, and more effective, than the best named) I've worked on learning skills, got all the basic ship classes to 4, etc etc. Unless I just want to fly around as a bug holding people down for others to shoot at them, I can't do anything but continue to run missions and gather my isk for a few more months until I can be useful. And even then, I'll just be marginally useful, and can't properly fulfill standard fleet roles such as a sniper (T2 guns + spike) etc etc. And lets not even go near the T2 ships.
Now don't get me wrong. I love this game, spending hours working on a fitting that's just right for a particular situation, that this is a thinking game more than a twitch game. However, on the flip side it's very frustrating knowing that no matter how well I fit, or how much time I put into the game, I'm going to be at a disadvantage for probably the next year compared to many players. And I can't do **** about it except sit here and twiddle my thumbs. While logging in at odd hours to change my skills.
Is there a solution to this dilemma? I guess I could buy a character, but then I lose out on the RP aspect (more than I already am playing Achura even though I fly gallente, since I am playing catch-up in skills), and who knows what reputation the character I am buying has (did it steal from corp hangars? Scam in Jita?).
I think that this game would be best if there were no skills at all. No, I don't like grinding skills WOW style either. That's why traditionally I have enjoyed RTS's or games like CIV the most, it's based purely on your skill and thought, and not twitch style or "I've been here the longest/beaten up the most npc's for points".
Is this going to happen? Of course not. I guess a much higher starting SP would be nice, and has the possibility of happenning. (yes, I know many old timers started with 5k SP. But guess what? Everyone else did too at the time, you could go into low-sec with a few million SP and actually stand a chance).
Anyways, the current system really sucks for new players. Sure, it works OK for those people who like flying tiny ships (which CCP seems intent on trying to make relevant, re tracking nerfs, web nerfs, missile nerfs). But for the rest of us, we just gotta sit here, carebear it up for 6 months, and then still relatively suck for the next 6 months until we can actually use T2 gear in a specific niche.
Just my two cents. And before I get flamed, I would far prefer a higher starting SP (guess what, some people want to fly something other than frigates!) than grinding for SP. I enjoy that my g/f and I have similar skills even though I play a lot more than her.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.12.11 22:23:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Originally by: Akita T
Not even one (1) extra SP per hour.
Yeah I bet you'd quit eve if that happened.
Considering it will never happen...
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 23:32:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Akita T
and makes active play basically mandatory for fast progression...
Thank you for admitting that you never really were concerned with this.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Hyjinx McStagger
Gallente
Elko Bail Bonds
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Posted - 2008.12.11 23:36:00 -
[80]
bad idea - go play another game - with the excpetion of a missing skill queue and new players getting way more SPs than characters from years ago - the current training system is fine
It's a game, not a job! |
Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.12 07:21:00 -
[81]
If a guy playing a 12 month old character has billions of ISK, why isn't he buying a 2 year old character instead of worrying about being useless?
No, encouraging people to spend more time on a game in order to earn faster character development would turn EVE into another Evercrack. You'd want to keep going until your daily quota of rested bonus was spent.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.12.12 07:23:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Originally by: Akita T
and makes active play basically mandatory for fast progression...
Thank you for admitting that you never really were concerned with this.
Yeah, you know, showing the context would be pretty sweet too... I can bet it's in a context where it's explained how much ISK matters in this game, alongside some clarifications that "expert" players don't actually need to be all that active to make ISK if they rely on "market PvP" of sorts.
Most games have a "grind for XP, gring for gear, grind for special spells/whatever" system, all of which are at least partially mandatory.
EVE has a system where there's only one thing to grind, namely ISK, and you don't even HAVE to grind that either since you have enough ways to get it by using more brain, less activity (but a bit of risk and depend on how other players are doing).
EVE *HAD* a "get SP for doing stuff" system (but granted, an unlimited one, and one without much oversight... and still not all that fast), and it was basically horrible - people would just leave their characters on to do something semi-automated. The guys from CCP quickly realized that they don't really like the idea of multiple levels of grinding, so they sought to reduce the gind to a minimum, while still maintaining some noteworthy distinction between active/inactive people, and rewarding guile on both counts, wether active or inactive.
So, bottom line, the EFFORT required to implement a system where people WOULDN'T just end up half-exploiting it thanks to alts or friends is just too big, while the end-result is not only insignificant for gameplay, but also regarded as a bad thing by quite some people.
Considering CCP has a lot of things that are way easier to do and a lot of people consider beneficial, this idea makes no practical sense.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Haakelen
Gallente
Cassandra's Light
Caeruleum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.12 07:48:00 -
[83]
Dumb, not supported, etc.
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.12 14:37:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
You'd want to keep going until your daily quota of rested bonus was spent.
And thats where the details would come into play, finding the sweet spot.
Theres the everquest way of being required to play, and the eve way of not needing to play at all.
There are benefits to both and downsides to both.
Actually logging in to play everquest feels more rewarding than logging in to play eve.
NOT logging in to play eve if you don't feel like it feels much better than not logging in to play everquest.
On the flip side everquest is a grind, and logging in to play eve is not rewarding at all sometimes.
The important thing would be to reward the vastly diverse playstyles that any particular player enjoys doing for fun. Thats the difference between grind and fun.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Shadowschild
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Posted - 2008.12.12 15:40:00 -
[85]
I've been playing for a month or so & im already bored with this games skill system. Waiting 3 weeks for a skill to fly a ship that I already own... well thats boring & im paying a monthly subscription on top of that!!! Talk about a ****ty deal here. It's a game for crying out loud.
We have a on going term in our corp - it's not the # of weeks but the % of subscribtion time. I.e. 3weeks = 3/4 of a subscribtion or if you do the math it's $11.25 to learn that skill ...
Please impliment something to shorten the level V skills or forget it ill find something more fun to play
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Korizan
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Posted - 2008.12.12 15:41:00 -
[86]
No.
I have no interest in turning EVE in another grind for a level game.
All this does is create power leveling and people who pay someone else to level there character 24 hours a day.
IT hurts casual players and rewards players that have nothing better to do but play the game.
Besides people are already rewarded for playing the game in the form of ISK.
More ISK means more options.
Real time training and a single server is what makes EVE what it is.
Remove either and you will destroy the game.
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.12 16:00:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Akita T
So, bottom line, the EFFORT required to implement a system where people WOULDN'T just end up half-exploiting it thanks to alts or friends is just too big, while the end-result is not only insignificant for gameplay, but also regarded as a bad thing by quite some people.
Considering CCP has a lot of things that are way easier to do and a lot of people consider beneficial, this idea makes no practical sense.
The effort to implement could be massive undertaking. The initial idea definitely. Or CCP could already have a system designed, who knows. I can't help but assume CCP think about this kind of thing a lot more than I do.
But then again everything you do in eve is some sort of transaction on the server side. Buy something, sell something, move something, blow something up, do a mission, mine ore, refine ore, research something, build something, scan something, hack something, etc something~
They're all already in the game as some sort of transaction, and those are just the ones that give feedback to the client.
I think it could be pretty easy to implement depending on how complicated you wanted to get with it.
The first way I proposed (the initial idea represented by the picture), I agree with you it would take a good bit of effort to get right, especially with making it easily understandable by the player. The third way however I think would actually be pretty easy.
Plus just imagine what the investment into that complicated architecture could do for achievement tracking.  Theres all sorts of player personalization potential in eve, and tbh I'd like it if they tracked my actions whether they reward it with SP or not.  Oh so i've made that much money total selling stuff, spent that much money buying stuff, hauled more veld than chribba, delt more damage than shrike, discovered more phenomena than captain kirk.
As far as exploits, exploits happen and you really just have to accept that things will be exploited by some players.
But that really isn't important if it provides enjoyment for the majority of players.
Remember quake 3? It has terrible lag. They made a patch one time that made it playable, but apparently susceptible to hacking, so they turned it off and the lag was terrible again.
You get the idea, you never want to deprive your majority just because something has some flaws that a couple asshats will take advantage of.
You just limit the amount of damage those asshats can cause. imo~
And about no added value. I believe it would be a large added value to most players. For some its a playstyle goal that is totally missing from eve, for others its just extra gratification for playing eve.
For those that don't give a crap, I completely understand, and wouldn't have them change their ways at all.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.12.12 17:10:00 -
[88]
I agree with the OP that there needs to be a sort of SP gain / action system. I don't know how it would be implemented, and I cannot be bothered to give examples of one. However, I do not enjoy sitting around for months at a time waiting for base skills so that I can be semi-proficient in more than just buzzing around in a frigate scrambling people.
Did I play WoW? Yes. One of eight MMO's I've played, In thas particular MMO I had 8 max level characters. I'm a power leveler and I admit that I would power level the **** out of myself given the oppurtunity in Eve Online. I don't understand why you people feel like you're being "punished" just because given the oppurtunity I would move more quickly in the game instead of being stuck at your turtle pace.
I challange you all to give me one VALID reason, for why this shouldn't be implemented in some way or form?
You say that it would encourage power leveling; so what? How many people ghosted characters for years just to sell them in the future?
It would create an unfair advantage to people who played? What's wrong with that? You're saying its wrong for people who PLAY to be rewarded for actually PLAYING? Why is the guy with 2 jobs who logs in 1 time a week entitled to be just as good as the guy who bleeds his heart and soul in to the game every day? Because the other guy was "lucky" enough to find the game first? How is that anymore fair?
CCP if you have any intention of expanding this game and your playerbase you need to learn to make your game more accesible. I don't care about quality vs quantity, I just want to see over a million people playing Eve-O.
"YOU COMMIE BASTARDS WILL PAY!" - SoulinEther |
Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
Apocalypse Ponies
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Posted - 2008.12.12 17:19:00 -
[89]
no
and seriously! Thanks for just reading my sig! |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.12 17:23:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
I agree with the OP that there needs to be a sort of SP gain / action system. I don't know how it would be implemented, and I cannot be bothered to give examples of one. However, I do not enjoy sitting around for months at a time waiting for base skills so that I can be semi-proficient in more than just buzzing around in a frigate scrambling people.
Did I play WoW? Yes. One of eight MMO's I've played, In thas particular MMO I had 8 max level characters. I'm a power leveler and I admit that I would power level the **** out of myself given the oppurtunity in Eve Online. I don't understand why you people feel like you're being "punished" just because given the oppurtunity I would move more quickly in the game instead of being stuck at your turtle pace.
I challange you all to give me one VALID reason, for why this shouldn't be implemented in some way or form?
You say that it would encourage power leveling; so what? How many people ghosted characters for years just to sell them in the future?
It would create an unfair advantage to people who played? What's wrong with that? You're saying its wrong for people who PLAY to be rewarded for actually PLAYING? Why is the guy with 2 jobs who logs in 1 time a week entitled to be just as good as the guy who bleeds his heart and soul in to the game every day? Because the other guy was "lucky" enough to find the game first? How is that anymore fair?
CCP if you have any intention of expanding this game and your playerbase you need to learn to make your game more accesible. I don't care about quality vs quantity, I just want to see over a million people playing Eve-O.
Because this is not WOW.
Stop being a MMOTARD and accept the fact that EVE-Online will remain unique for that very reason.
If you don't have time to play the game... then you shouldn't be playing it in the first place.
I have a full time job... I pay my bills...just like any other hard working individual.
The only reason I play this game is because its not like other MMO[RPG]s where I won't get overhsaodwed by some punkass idiot who's played only a week and does things that other players spent weeks if not months of hard earned time and work getting to.
Everyone has an equal chance of acheiving the ability to use/employ the hundreds of fun little things you can in this game.... each advanced aspect takes time.
Not effort.
Anyone can sit on there ass for an few hours and level up a character.
Few have brains enough...let alone the Maturity to wait.... and be patient.
Patience is everything in this game.... and that's why I will gladly spend more money on this game to keep it that way.
Don't like it?
GTFO and GB2WOW.
Personally I love the fact that I have to wait an entire month just to use something very high tech.
Granted... maybe the timers could be shortened just a tad.... but then again.... it would devalue the full worth of said thing.
Personally this entire proposal says one thing.... you lack patience... you have no maturity in such a thing... and your tired of waiting to level up your uber chacter.
Tough.... adapt or quit....
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