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Alliance Tournament VI: Official Rules Thread

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 43 post(s)
Cheekybiatch	Posted - 2008.12.02 18:52:00 - [211] The problems people see as rigged are stupid, ECM, Sentry Drones and Drakes. You have the problem that your weakness for each setup will be a big one if the other team prepares for it. However my problem is I feel people will be using the same ships combinations over and over which will be a bit boring in my opinion. Problems are 5 Battleships use up all your points and 10 Frigates is impossible (I doubt anyone would want to use), the majority will be using therefore the median ships point wise. I think that the point reduction on Battleships would be better if they could be complimented with Tech 2 Frigates. So maybe a reduction of 1 point for Tech 2 Battleships which allows two Tech 2 Frigates to be fielded or five Tech 1 Frigates. Also 2 points for Tech 1 Battleships which allows three Tech 2 frigates or five Faction Frigates. I just think this will show more appeal and combinations possible else I believe that 5 Battleships and 9 HACs/Battlecruisers will be popular and it seems a bit static in choices to be chosen. I know Faction Battleships may also need a reduction but that is if people agree with my suggestion.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.02 20:45:00 - [212] Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 02/12/2008 20:47:02 can i please get a explenation as to why pirate implants isnt allowed in this tourney????? god knows how many times i actually have to ask before getting a answer Originally by: CCP Claw you think randomness is good, I prefer pilot skill and setup skill to be the determinant factor. oh, and please remember that not all teams have players with high sp/maxed skills in certain ships so there will always be a randomness factor cause of it Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Eluhaf	Posted - 2008.12.02 21:02:00 - [213] was there any thought put into calling out the falcon/rook from the other recons in the points allocated (or for that matter addressing the EAFs in a similiar manner). I can see why the ECM ships are almost a 50% premium to a HAC/BC but the other race's recons seem more on par with HACs, and it would be nice to see a few being fielded. The curse was fielded as tactic to break the dual guardian set ups of the past, but now with RR changes don't see that they will be useful enough to justify the premium they carry.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.02 22:34:00 - [214] These will certainly be interesting rules. I'm going to enjoy seeing them in action. A point though - when establishing prizes, give some thought to the following proposal: the winning team gets all ships and modules destroyed in the tournament. It means that it's economically neutral, but it's still a huge prize, especially with these rules pushing people up towards big ships. I'm not sure it's suitably glamorous, but it's got some nice features. ---------- Thanks to all those who voted for me.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.02 23:27:00 - [215] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 02/12/2008 20:47:02 can i please get a explenation as to why pirate implants isnt allowed in this tourney????? god knows how many times i actually have to ask before getting a answer Originally by: CCP Claw you think randomness is good, I prefer pilot skill and setup skill to be the determinant factor. oh, and please remember that not all teams have players with high sp/maxed skills in certain ships so there will always be a randomness factor cause of it Same reason as before and same reason T2 rigs are not allowed the extortionate costs for smaller alliances when the actual isk rewards possible for winning the tourny probably wont be that huge. If you disagree that rigs are expensive think about fitting 10 ships with 2-3 rigs for each fight your looking at 1-6bil per fight depending on the rigs thats the same as fielding 4 faction BS and some faction frigs every match + some. As for skills i believe claw is talking about player skill not SP.
Hal Lubbert Body Snatchers	Posted - 2008.12.03 00:39:00 - [216] Originally by: Danton Marcellus As for remote repping battleships being a pain in the ass, that may be something for the devs to look into and not so much a tournament concern. Are you kidding? This is an MMO Game = TEAMWORK 4 The Win! Spider tanking is a great effect of TEAMWORK, there should be more perks to those who can play well with others. TEAMWORK FOR THE WIN!
Hal Lubbert Body Snatchers	Posted - 2008.12.03 00:50:00 - [217] Originally by: CCP Mindstar Originally by: KTOZ I think his strongest point is there s not much way to counter it. You cant use ecm ( autotarget), you cant use the range at your favor, you cant use smart bombs as you can against regular dmg drones or repair drones ( thats why rep drones are awailible i guess, you can counter them..), ishtars warps in at range, deploys sentry's, sit at their spot and try's to keep you off for couple of minutes with combat utility modules, use damps etc. You have to go there to smartbomb their drones down while 45 sent firing on you + the support modules they will fit on the ishtars.. it s abit overpovered yes. Why ? becoz you cannot decide really to be 0km or atleast close range to them. You just warp 0 to the beacon and if they come to max range from the opposite beacon to yours, you will have hard time.. It is a nasty setup yes, no question about that. The key to countering it, in my personal opinion lies in the fact that ishtars are fundamentally quite a weak ship. Teams did similar things last year, when you could bring 5 Ishtars maximum, but that setup did not win the day either. 45 sentry drones will hurt, and hurt hard, but remember that at the start of the fight they could well be facing 5 gank battleships. With no remote-repping, the Ishtars would drop like flies. Feel free to prove me wrong on it, but I honestly don't consider it a huge problem at this point. Agreed, How hard is it to target sentry drones if need be. They don't move! Can we say missile boats on drones? TEAMWORK FOR THE WIN!
Chronos VIII Amarr Malevolent Evolution The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.03 07:25:00 - [218] Edited by: Chronos VIII on 03/12/2008 07:25:13 Originally by: Hal Lubbert Originally by: CCP Mindstar Originally by: KTOZ I think his strongest point is there s not much way to counter it. You cant use ecm ( autotarget), you cant use the range at your favor, you cant use smart bombs as you can against regular dmg drones or repair drones ( thats why rep drones are awailible i guess, you can counter them..), ishtars warps in at range, deploys sentry's, sit at their spot and try's to keep you off for couple of minutes with combat utility modules, use damps etc. You have to go there to smartbomb their drones down while 45 sent firing on you + the support modules they will fit on the ishtars.. it s abit overpovered yes. Why ? becoz you cannot decide really to be 0km or atleast close range to them. You just warp 0 to the beacon and if they come to max range from the opposite beacon to yours, you will have hard time.. It is a nasty setup yes, no question about that. The key to countering it, in my personal opinion lies in the fact that ishtars are fundamentally quite a weak ship. Teams did similar things last year, when you could bring 5 Ishtars maximum, but that setup did not win the day either. 45 sentry drones will hurt, and hurt hard, but remember that at the start of the fight they could well be facing 5 gank battleships. With no remote-repping, the Ishtars would drop like flies. Feel free to prove me wrong on it, but I honestly don't consider it a huge problem at this point. Agreed, How hard is it to target sentry drones if need be. They don't move! Can we say missile boats on drones? You just dont get it. Ishtars can carry 15 sentry drones each, so you are looking at at least 100 sentry drones to pop before the fight starts for you. Chronx
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.03 10:22:00 - [219] Originally by: Random Womble Same reason as before and same reason T2 rigs are not allowed the extortionate costs for smaller alliances when the actual isk rewards possible for winning the tourny probably wont be that huge. If you disagree that rigs are expensive think about fitting 10 ships with 2-3 rigs for each fight your looking at 1-6bil per fight depending on the rigs thats the same as fielding 4 faction BS and some faction frigs every match + some. considering t2 bs have the same point cost as t1 bs i would say it looks like ccp isnt really thinking to much about the cost. and when it comes to t2 rigs its something you have to buy new of everytime you loose a ship, not the same with pirate implants and these days pirate implants are pretty dirt cheap, at least if you look at low grade sets. and honestly, if a alliance cant afford to buy them then tough luck for them imo Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
North River	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:24:00 - [220] Hi All, I think people are missing the point of this. It's a PVP competition hosted by CCP. They set the rules and you choose to play by them. Let me ask the following question - would the current rule set stop you from competing?? My view is that if you answer no then you have accepted the restraints and should be preparing for and testing these setups rather than moaning. The weakness/strengths should be apparent fairly quickly!! If you answer yes then you have made a decision not to play and moaning will get you nothing. Additionally if you are not willing to give it a go you probably wouldn't have got very far anyway. The rules have now been discussed and set. Surely a more productive thread would be team setups and counters rather than the whining going on here. How many times have the rules of EVE been changed in a release but we are still here playing!!!! Additionally three points to make. 1. The PVP Nature of the competion excludes a number of other game players (industrialists, miners etc) not just logistics pilots 2. If all you can do is fly a logistics ship then you really aren't going to get very far. PVP tends to reward the flexiblity 3. You still have a month and a half to train new skills!!! Stop moaning and get on with it!
Sigras	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:41:00 - [221] Originally by: North River 1. The PVP Nature of the competion[SIC] excludes a number of other game players (industrialists, miners etc) not just logistics pilots it isnt a complaint of who's getting excluded but the number of tactics that get excluded from PvP when you exclude logistics ships; it makes the "PvP" tournament less and less PvP-like PvP (which you already stated is the nature of the competition) is all about how well players cooperate with each other. Taking away logistics removes a large part of that Originally by: North River 2. If all you can do is fly a logistics ship then you really aren't going to get very far. PVP tends to reward the flexiblity i can fly more than a guardian/oneiros/basilisk/scimitar, thats not the point. The point is that now that logistics sips are not allowed, you might as well not fly ANY frigates unless you lack the points to fly anything else. Originally by: North River 3. You still have a month and a half to train new skills!!! Again, not the point; its not who's excluded its whats excluded. please read first post second
North River	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:59:00 - [222] Originally by: Sigras Originally by: North River 1. The PVP Nature of the competion[SIC] excludes a number of other game players (industrialists, miners etc) not just logistics pilots it isnt a complaint of who's getting excluded but the number of tactics that get excluded from PvP when you exclude logistics ships; it makes the "PvP" tournament less and less PvP-like PvP (which you already stated is the nature of the competition) is all about how well players cooperate with each other. Taking away logistics removes a large part of that Originally by: North River 2. If all you can do is fly a logistics ship then you really aren't going to get very far. PVP tends to reward the flexiblity i can fly more than a guardian/oneiros/basilisk/scimitar, thats not the point. The point is that now that logistics sips are not allowed, you might as well not fly ANY frigates unless you lack the points to fly anything else. Originally by: North River 3. You still have a month and a half to train new skills!!! Again, not the point; its not who's excluded its whats excluded. please read first post second lol. Maybe my response was a bit of a rant. The general jist was accept the change and adapt. Try new things rather than moaning about things that have changed. The people who will win this are proabably already testing all the different setups. Enjoy the event
Chronos VIII Amarr Malevolent Evolution The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.03 16:09:00 - [223] I'd like to see logistics as well tbh. They are a part of real pvp, and considering the fact that alot ships rely on logistics due to lacking tanking ability, they would really add something to the tournament. Watching dual logistics hanging in there over 20mins is not exactly what I consider as interesting to watch, but they are a part of real pvp and should therefore be a part of this tournament. In addition, you were discussing how stupid it is to ban modules/ships from the tournament, but now you are banning a whole shiptype, which can be easily countered by ecm/cap warfare, whereas you leave sentry drones untouched. Make logistics like 40 points or something ridiculous so you really have to sacrifice your firepower for your survivability. Chronx
Cheekybiatch	Posted - 2008.12.03 16:27:00 - [224] Originally by: Chronos VIII .... but now you are banning a whole shiptype, ... They aren't banning it you just can't read they are banning repairing modules as it makes the PVP too static, the ship is still usable and you can use the EW they provide and Cap transferrers also you can still use the repair drones. Stop moaning about stuff which wont change/ doesn't exist instead suggest alterations that would benefit the PVP and make it enjoyable to watch, not because you think it's unfair as your buddy wont be able to rep you for the whole match. Also still curious how bombers will work without cloaking or logistics but still should be intresting.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:30:00 - [225] Edited by: Random Womble on 03/12/2008 17:30:30 Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Random Womble Same reason as before and same reason T2 rigs are not allowed the extortionate costs for smaller alliances when the actual isk rewards possible for winning the tourny probably wont be that huge. If you disagree that rigs are expensive think about fitting 10 ships with 2-3 rigs for each fight your looking at 1-6bil per fight depending on the rigs thats the same as fielding 4 faction BS and some faction frigs every match + some. considering t2 bs have the same point cost as t1 bs i would say it looks like ccp isnt really thinking to much about the cost. and when it comes to t2 rigs its something you have to buy new of everytime you loose a ship, not the same with pirate implants and these days pirate implants are pretty dirt cheap, at least if you look at low grade sets. and honestly, if a alliance cant afford to buy them then tough luck for them imo fielding 5 marauders is going to cost you what? 3bil? Buying 10 pirate implant sets could set you back upto 20bil and then if you have some diffrent people in the scond fight then your going to have to cough up some more isk or perhaps your next setup relys on diffrent pirate implants. There is a big diffrence between buying implants and buying maruaders plus if the maruaders survive anyone can use them the implants are just completely restriced to one character. If you win the tourny you wont spend more on maruaders than you will win in prizes while you might with implants and if you lose well you wont be in long enough to lose that much in maruaders. Dont get me wrong the tourny is not about the prizes as much any more but then again the costs of the winners atleast should be atleast about even even if overall there is an isk loss for all competitors.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:16:00 - [226] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:27:08 Originally by: Letifer Deus Or just limit teams to a single RR logi... If your team can't even kill one logistics, it probably deserves to lose. I still don't understand why this wasn't implemented instead of an all out RR ban. Maybe quoting myself will invoke a response from CCP. And yes, I'm aware that it won't be changed now, but I still would like to know the thinking on this. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:40:00 - [227] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:33:56 Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:29:20 I will respond to this: Originally by: CCP Mindstar Logistics ships are not the problem here. It is larger numbers of ships capable of fitting large remote armor / shield reps than in previous tournaments. The main culprit here are battleships, not logistics ships. It is entirely feasible to make a seriously mean spider tank with 5 battleships and no logistics ships. Thus, limiting logistics ships to 1, and not limiting remote modules on BS would do nothing to achieve what we are looking to do. If logistics ships were the problem, they would have been addressed in a similar way to how you are suggesting, or via points. With this: Originally by: Letifer Deus Or just limit teams to a single RR logi (with ONLY that logi allowed to use RRs)... If your team can't even kill one logistics, it probably deserves to lose. I still don't understand why this wasn't implemented instead of an all out RR ban. Maybe quoting myself will invoke a response from CCP. And yes, I'm aware that it won't be changed now, but I still would like to know the thinking on this. I think you should re-read what you quoted me on. It should answer your question. --

Emperor Atreides3rd	Posted - 2008.12.03 20:44:00 - [228] tourny sounds fun minus the rr ban i think it should be limited to one logi ship with rr i cant remember who said that first but kudos to you. and thank you for allowing rigs this time round.
Pbob	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:12:00 - [229] Um... i think you all have forgotten remote hull reps.... they weren't banned so even though you will lose range you can still mount them on a logistics ship and as many a cap pilot will tell you those saved them more than a shield or armor transfer ever did. But many people forget about these modules because they are still relatively new to the game. And making it harder to spider tank will make for some more interesting fights in how people fit there ships.
Chronos VIII Amarr Malevolent Evolution The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:42:00 - [230] Originally by: Cheekybiatch Originally by: Chronos VIII .... but now you are banning a whole shiptype, ... They aren't banning it you just can't read they are banning repairing modules as it makes the PVP too static, the ship is still usable and you can use the EW they provide and Cap transferrers also you can still use the repair drones. Stop moaning about stuff which wont change/ doesn't exist instead suggest alterations that would benefit the PVP and make it enjoyable to watch, not because you think it's unfair as your buddy wont be able to rep you for the whole match. Also still curious how bombers will work without cloaking or logistics but still should be intresting. Well yea, I'm sorry logistics are not banned, they just aren't allowed to do what they can do best
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:58:00 - [231] Originally by: Pbob Um... i think you all have forgotten remote hull reps.... they weren't banned so even though you will lose range you can still mount them on a logistics ship and as many a cap pilot will tell you those saved them more than a shield or armor transfer ever did. But many people forget about these modules because they are still relatively new to the game. And making it harder to spider tank will make for some more interesting fights in how people fit there ships. uhh i dunno what cap pilots you've been talking to but hull reps are utterly worthless during pvp ;P (even knowing this i actually did try to make a remote hull repping strat but 's totally not viable)
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:59:00 - [232] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 03/12/2008 22:01:11 Originally by: Emperor Atreides3rd tourny sounds fun minus the rr ban i think it should be limited to one logi ship with rr i cant remember who said that first but kudos to you. and thank you for allowing rigs this time round. 's not just about logistics, it's also about battleships/hacs/whatever with remote reps, even if you only had one logistic cruiser you could have a whole bunch of other ships making it unkillable with their own remote rep/energy xfer modules, and this tourney you can field more heavy stuff so it'd be a bigger problem than last time
Faekurias Black Legion Command Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.03 22:15:00 - [233] Can't wait for when the limit is raised to 50 vs 50 , would be fken sweet. ------------------ Recruiting..
RedLion Caldari State Constructions	Posted - 2008.12.03 22:53:00 - [234] This is sad news for logistic pilots :< - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.04 00:08:00 - [235] Originally by: CCP Mindstar Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:33:56 Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:29:20 I will respond to this: Originally by: CCP Mindstar Logistics ships are not the problem here. It is larger numbers of ships capable of fitting large remote armor / shield reps than in previous tournaments. The main culprit here are battleships, not logistics ships. It is entirely feasible to make a seriously mean spider tank with 5 battleships and no logistics ships. Thus, limiting logistics ships to 1, and not limiting remote modules on BS would do nothing to achieve what we are looking to do. If logistics ships were the problem, they would have been addressed in a similar way to how you are suggesting, or via points. With this: Originally by: Letifer Deus Or just limit teams to a single RR logi (with ONLY that logi allowed to use RRs)... If your team can't even kill one logistics, it probably deserves to lose. I still don't understand why this wasn't implemented instead of an all out RR ban. Maybe quoting myself will invoke a response from CCP. And yes, I'm aware that it won't be changed now, but I still would like to know the thinking on this. I think you should re-read what you quoted me on. It should answer your question. Mindstar i think its you that failed to read what he quoted which stated allowing RR _only_ on logistics and not allowing them to be fitted on any other ships eg the BSs you mentioned. I know claw replied to that saying that you did not want to dictate so many things but in reality you would end up with less restrictions not more. Also since the logistics could not be remote repped they would be vulenerable too so no need to make them have huge points assuming you could only field 1.
Sigras	Posted - 2008.12.04 00:32:00 - [236] Originally by: Random Womble Mindstar i think its you that failed to read what he quoted which stated allowing RR _only_ on logistics and not allowing them to be fitted on any other ships eg the BSs you mentioned. I know claw replied to that saying that you did not want to dictate so many things but in reality you would end up with less restrictions not more. Also since the logistics could not be remote repped they would be vulenerable too so no need to make them have huge points assuming you could only field 1. yep; im thinking 32 pts a piece stating that 2 logistics ships 2 battleships is impossible i guess again, as was pointed out earlier, how is someone supposed to use stealth bombers w/o cloak or logistics? what about an EAS or an assault frigate?
StoreSlem Minmatar 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.04 00:54:00 - [237] Originally by: CCP Mindstar I think you should re-read what you quoted me on. It should answer your question. Reassuring to see you have everything under control sir!
KTOZ Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:32:00 - [238] Edited by: KTOZ on 04/12/2008 09:34:56 I dont understand why ppl whining so much... You dont need T2 rigs, boosters or pirate implants to fly in this tourney unless you have 10 mil sp and wants to decrease the sp difference with your opponents by boosting expensively your skills. If remote rep modules are not allowed, they are not allowed for any team not only for yours... there s still tons and tons of possible options/setups. You can just find something else. Ok some logistic pilots must be ***ed off becoz maybe they wont be participating to the tourney as there s no need for logistics exept cap transfert, but cant you fly anything else? Cant you just leave with it? Last year T1 rigs were not allowed and ppl moaned, this year they are allowed and nobody say even anything about it. Ppl just need something to whine about :D With the change on the ship points you have even more possibility this year, so use your creativity, find a good setup and kick ass with what ever you can use! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:50:00 - [239] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Originally by: Dihania In color I hereby predict the winning field compositions: 5 Falcons, 2 BSs (Armageddon + Megathron), 3 Frigates (Rifters or Rocket Kestrels) 5 Falcons, 4 Ishtars This year we will see a lot of Falcons being used and I bet you they will use drones and target painters for those damn frigates (inties, afs especially) Anyway I am looking forward to it, as I have the past years. wouldn't rooks be more useful since cloaks aren't allowed ? also your strats use way too many points Wouldn't kitsune be even more usefull, offering about same jamming strength at sufficient range and for 1/3 price? _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:57:00 - [240] yea we'll probly see quite a few kitsunes on da field, zooming around with their lil afterburners, 5 points vs 16 is a big difference for half the jamming power i hope they all accidentally fly out of the arena ;d

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